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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Renfrewshire => Topic started by: NSWelshwoman on Wednesday 01 May 13 07:36 BST (UK)
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I would much appreciate any help in identifying which COATs family might have been - as representative of the Coats Cotton company - in St Petersburg, Russia in the late 1800s. I have an ancestor who was married to LORNA COATS, who I understand was the 2nd daughter of this Coats family Representative. I gather she is buried in St Petersburg and was probably married there, but I assume she was born in Scotland - probably Renfrewshire or Lanarkshire as this is where the Company had its base. Any help in finding further information about this lady much appreciated. NSWelshwoman
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Hi there,
Do you have a rough idea of when Lorna was born? I have used Scotlands People website to do a search of the Statutory Births 1855 - 2012 and found only 1 Lorna Coats registered in Scotland during all those years! But the date of birth of this person was recent enough that the person could more than likely still be alive so I would assume this is not the lady you seek information on.
So perhaps Lorna was not the forename on her birth registration (if she was born in Scotland)??
Looby
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Thank you Loobylooayr for this help - I know Lorna died in 1895 and her husband was born in 1848. Beyond that I can only surmise when she might have been born. I could not find her in the English records either. I have also just checked if Lorna might be an abbreviated name for some other name but have got nowhere there either. So I guess either Lorna was not her first name - as you suggest - or she was born somewhere else. Thank you again, NSWelshwoman
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Hi
I don't think the name Lorna was in existence in the period you are looking at :-\ The male form, Lorn(e) was, see www.whatsinaname.net/php/search.php?action=search2&search_name=lorna There are though a couple of girls showing in earlier censuses with their first name down as Lorne for example (none with the surname Coats though).
What is the source for the name Lorna Coats connected to your ancestor? What was his name?
A little here for background: www.renfrewshire.gov.uk/webcontent/home/services/leisure+and+culture/heritage+and+local+history/els-pl-sirpetercoatsandsirthomascoats
Monica :)
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Hi again,
Did Lorna and her husband marry in Russia? And what was her husband's name?
From the little I have gleaned from the internet J&P Coats's business interests in Russia only began in the late 1880's, so it's highly improbable that she was born there.
If she had any children it would be a good idea to look at their names as a clue to her parentage (I realise you may have already done this....I'm just keying in my thoughts :D).
Came across this when I was browsing
http://textline.wordpress.com/2009/08/19/in-memory-of-janet-coats-90th-anniversary-of-scotlands-oldest-literary-prize/
thought it might be of interest.
Looby
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Thank you again Loobyloo and also Monica. The information I have about Lorna Coats is through a family member who knew as a child, Lorna's husband John Epps. John and Lorna had no children & married in St Petersburg, I understand. Your Coats "blog" Loobyloo, that included discussion about the children of Thomas Coats, had quite a resonance with what I know of John and Lorna. Like Janet Coats/Black, Lorna may have married when she was too old to have children - John was probably in his 40s when they married. Also husband John was a teacher/professor of English - so here is a literary connection also. The time frame of the births of Thomas' children are about the right time frame and father Thomas being a textile engineer, could feasibly have been the Company Representative while the Company was starting up in Russia. So this family is looking at least a little prospective. Is it possible to find out what the second daughter in this family might be called? I will also reply to the blog and see if that throws up any answers. Thanks so much for your help. NSWelshwoman
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At least two Ancestry trees give the children of Thomas Coats & Margaret Glen- is this the family you think 'Lorna' might belong to?
Daughters names/dates don't match-
Janet (1864-1918)
Catherine (1851-1928)
Margaet (1858-1946)
Jane (1859-1931) duplicated as Jeannie (1860-1931)
Lilian (1865-1954)
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Is this the same John Epps who taught the Romanov children from 1904-c1918 (or 1904-1908)?
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Yes Aghadowey, it is and thank you for those daughters of Thomas Coats - tho as you say, none of them match - names or dates. So much for that idea but thanks for looking.
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Could Lorna have been Lilian from Aghadowey's list of daughters (not second born girl though, more like last born really)?
Monica
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I thought about that too Monica, and her birth date could work OK too, but unfortunately it does not fit with her reported death date of 1895, which I think is more or less accurate. Thanks for the suggestion anyway.
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According to the family trees those daughters either didn't marry (as in Lilian's case) or did not marry anyone called Epps (or anything close to that surname). Also, none died before 1900 or in Russia.
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Well that rather clinches it re that family. Thanks for that further information.
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Is this the same John Epps who taught the Romanov children from 1904-c1918 (or 1904-1908)?
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Not sure Aghadowey if you are asking me this question again, but if so see reply #8.
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Sorry- missed the reply in amongst the posts. :-[
I found this online but no indication that he was married-
John Epps taught 1904-1908, died Australia 1935, had family. After he died in Australia in 1935 his nephew, William Epps, sought to get them appraised by booksellers Maggs in London.
http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/content/2004/s1220082.htm
Also this family tree but think it's unlikely if John Epps was born c1823 then he was the man teaching in 1904-
John Epps left Kent early in life after obtaining his teaching degree. He eventually made his way to the Lyceum in St. Petersburg, Russia which was a high school for young nobles who were preparing for diplomatic life. During 1904 John was selected from the Lyceum to take the post of English tutor to the four Grand Duchesses, the children of Czar Nicholas II and Alexandria. That is a post he held until shortly before the tragic events of 1918. After John's death, a ring that had been presented to him by Czar Nicholas, was given as a bequest to Florence Dorothy Nutt, his grand-niece.
http://www.kent-opc.org/opcfamilydata/getperson.php?personID=I3012&tree=1
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Thankyou Aghadowey - I am familiar with this, but am also aware that unfortunately quite a bit of it is incorrect.
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I know there are errors but was trying to establish if this is the correct John Epps to help pinpoint his wife.
Did a quick search on FindMyPast index for overseas deaths and marriages without seeing anything but there may not have been any consular reports of either filed.
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Thanks for doing that check Aghadowey, I was wondering about overseas bmd records and how I could check for them (my foray into Russian records to date indicates a trip to local archives is only possible avenue - and Russian language skills required as well). But yes you do have the right man. The information about his wife is written on the back of a surviving photo of him.
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Did he die in Australia in 1935? If so the death certificate might help (depending on what information the informant- possibly nephew) knew? Will do a bit more thinking and searching.
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No he died in Kent, but his death certificate unfortunately doesn't tell us anything about his by then long-diseased wife.
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Thought from something I'd found earlier that he'd died in Australia (Australian death certificates usually much more detail than English ones).
? John Bilby Merikin Epps died 29 July 1935 of 56 Godwin Rd. Cliftonville Margate. Probate granted to Mabel Sarah Winifred Maeers spinster.
Found this post which suggests he married in Dorset before going to Russia but I can't find any marriage there-
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/DORSET/2005-03/1110564648
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Hello NSWelshwoman,
The forename Lorna was (according to various online sites :D) made popular by the 1869 novel Lorna Doone - you may have already read that? There were not many Lorna'a around during your Lorna Coats's lifetime. In fact there were only 7 female Lornas and 1 male Lorna ??? on the Scottish 1881 Census.
I've been trying to think what other name could have been abbreviated/altered to Lorna but haven't came up with anything yet.
Looby
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Yes Loobyloo, Lorna is certainly a difficult one to come up with other possible versions/variations.
Aghadowey - the information on the back of the photo indicates he married in St Petersburg. The Dorset post reflects an early version of what we thought.
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Just exploring every possible lead :)
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And your help in doing this exploration is very much appreciated Aghadowey. To try and glean more details I have returned to the original information and note that Lorna could in fact be LANA Coats/Coates. I have also discovered that she had a sister (unfortunately not named) but who married a Mr Thornicroft of the engineering firm "now called Metropolitan Vickers"". I don't know if any of this will help......
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Haven't found a Lana Coats yet but the details of the sister might be very useful. Am off again to search.....
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Is there any chance you could scan and add the notes on the back of the photo to this post?
Can't easily see variants of Lana to work from, but playing around with spellings, such as Lena brings up these possibilities www.whatsinaname.net/php/search.php?action=search2&search_name=lena
Monica
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May have found a lead. Could "Mr Thornicroft" have been Mr. Thornhill?
Added- may be too young :-\
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Could be way, way off the mark here - but found a John Isaac Thornycroft ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thornycroft_shipbuilding_company
He married a Blanche Ada Coules in 1870.
Know it's probably wrong but keeping options wide open ;D.
Just thought names of Coules and Coats slightly similar.
On the subject of Lorna / Lana.....could Eleanor/ Ellen/ Elenora be a possibilty?
Looby
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Blanche Ada was Coules not Coats/Coates :'(
Eleanor, etc. sounds like good possibilities.
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I had just written out a whole spiel in response to recent questions and lost it! But in summary - can't scan the writing as it has a very pronounced background. But magnifying it all I am now sure it is LANA COATES. All the other words I have included in previous posts.
I had also zeroed in on JI Thornycroft (the name on the photo is definitely Thornicroft) and thought him - or someone in his family - to be very prospective. I had also noted his marriage wasn't to a Coates but I do think it quite possible that Blanche Ada's name may have been mispelled as the name Coules is so close. Perhaps I need to find her birth record......
I also note that the Chairman of the J&P Coats Co at the time of their expansion into Russia was an Archibald Coates/Coats who I imagine would have lived in Glasgow or perhaps Paisley (Renfrewshire) - I do not know anything about his children but maybe this is another possibility.....
Thanks so much Aghadowey, Monica and Loobyloo - you are wonderful!!
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Archibald Coats could be the son of Peter Coats the P OF J&P Coats.
A 1 year old baby called Archibald is listed on the 1841 Census with Peter, his wife and older children living at Dunoon & Kilmun parish in Argyllshire - just across the water from the Clyde Coast & Renfrewshire.
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Archibald and family I think, in 1871:
Arch Coats 31 thread manufacturer
Elizabeth Coats 35
Peter Coats 5
William Coats 5
Helen Elizth Coats 2.....possible: Helen/Ellen/Lena etc... ???
...and 4 servants
Address: 3 Garthland Place, Abbey Burgh
Monica
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Blanche Ada was definately Coules not Coats so that couple can be eliminated. Do like the sound of little Helen Coats, daughter of Archibald, though.
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Struggle with this family for 1881 (can't see them!). This looks like them for 1891 (as transcribed):
Arch Coats (further info missing I think).
Peter Coats 25
William Coats 25
Marion Cross 38
...and five servants
Address: Woodside House, Paisley
Monica
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For reference, in case we need this, this looks to be Helen Elizabeth's birth entry https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FQ42-42R
Monica
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Woodside House-
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/sealed/mansions/woodside.htm
Oops- think we have to say farewell to Helen Coats- "1st dau. of Maj Spencer Frederick Chichester (by his wife Helen Elizabeth Coats, 1st dau. of Archibald Coats, of Woodside, Paisley)"
http://www.cracroftspeerage.co.uk/online/content/index1024.htm
Added- Helen died 1948.
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:'( Goodbye indeed to Helen Elizabeth....!
Monica
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Went out shopping thinking Helen Elizabeth Coats was the one!
Came home to discover she's history.
Back to the square one....did she have any sisters? And was her father the only Archibald Coats in the family? Certainly this one wasn't in Russia in 1891 as Monica has found him on the Census.
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Just adding this link with some additional info for background http://ancestrysolutions.com/FamilyCollectives/getperson.php?personID=I7771&tree=1
Just a thought...
If John Epps was the illegitimate son of Sarah Eppps, could he have used the surname of Merikin/Merrikan etc for his marriage?
Not sure from the above link how the date of 1880 was arrived at as the year that John left England for Russia?
Monica
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Great find Monica and it does tie in with probate details listed earlier-
? John Bilby Merikin Epps died 29 July 1935 of 56 Godwin Rd. Cliftonville Margate. Probate granted to Mabel Sarah Winifred Maeers spinster.
"Maeers" probably Macers
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It's because you posted the full name for the probate that I searched for it as a string, Aghadowey!
Monica
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I have been out of the picture for a few hours and how far we have moved along! This Lana Coates is certainly an elusive lady.......I do know quite a lot about her husband John - just not about his wife!! - and I think it most unlikely he would have used middle names etc for his marriage registration.
It seems we have rather exhausted the possibilities of finding a birth record for a Lana - or any other variation of this name. Perhaps it was a "pet name" she adopted that was unrelated to her birth name which then makes tracking it nigh on impossible, as all her other records would be in Russia - and hence relatively inaccessible.
But thank you very much indeed Aghhadowey, Loobyloo and Monica for putting so much effort into this search, I really appreciate it. It certainly confirms why i never got anywhere with this!!!
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This is an interesting thread to follow, not sure if it is now cold.
If Lana was of Russian origin, her first name may have been Svetlana. Not sure if this helps.
Doug
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Thank you Doug for this suggestion - in fact thank you for reminding me that this post is still open as I have now found the marriage record and should have closed it out - but I hadn't thought of a Svetlana!
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TOPIC CLOSED
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Hello NSWelshwoman,
I'm really pleased you have found the marriage record for John Epps and are able to close the topic.
But as one of the several Rootschatters who spent time searching records to find Lorna Coats , I'm intrigued to know if you made connection to the Paisley Coates family ?
Cheers ,
Looby :)
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If you pm me, I can put you in touch with a descendant of the family who has just written a book about the family. I'm sure he'd be able to help.
Christine
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If you pm me, I can put you in touch with a descendant of the family who has just written a book about the family. I'm sure he'd be able to help.
Christine