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Family History Documents and Artefacts => Unwanted Certificates & Artefacts => Topic started by: youngtug on Wednesday 01 May 13 21:49 BST (UK)
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These are from another album I bought at the same carboot, and from the same people. Mostly taken in Mesopotamia I think.
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Number 2;
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3
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4
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Good find Youngtug - excellent photos, well done for rescuing them and thanks for sharing.
Osprey
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lots more
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7
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Fascinating photos youngtug! :)
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Fascinating! Too much to hope for but - Is there anything written on any of them?
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Haven't found any with writing on from this album yet. Not helped by the fact they where glued onto the pages.
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A museum or library may be interested in these.
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The aircraft is possibly an R.E. 8 shipped to Basra, Iraq in a shipping crate for the Royal Air Force, 63 Squadron. A4350 was in that group. The men seem to be assembling it near the water and Basra was the main port of entry into Iraq. If this is so the photograph was taken after 1 April 1918 (the founding of the RAF). The photograph of the multitude of boats may be taken on a canal in Basra. A similar canal is seen in the link below.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basra
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Food for thought.
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9
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What's the badge on the man's hat in photo #2? - my first thought was German type cap, but . . . . :-\ :-\
Fascinating photos!
Wiggy
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Don't know wiggy, can't make it out. Leather gaitors as well. One of the other albums had someone in the Baghdad civil police.
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A few more;
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11
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12
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13
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14
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15
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What a wonderful history is captured in these photos. Thanks for posting them!
Don't know wiggy, can't make it out. Leather gaitors as well. One of the other albums had someone in the Baghdad civil police.
You are probably right YT - the coloured ribbon on his cap is different and what got me thinking - - - - but to have a German in the middle of all these allied photos would seem a bit odd.
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Don't think he,s German
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Very emotive photos YT, the fresh graves especially.
RIP all who have fallen in the performance of their duty. :'(
Honour their memory - always.
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These photos capture the feeling of the time perfectly. What are your plans for them, YT - as said already I'm sure there is a museum somewhere that would welcome them?
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More and more amazing youngtug! If you are anything like me you are probably very attached to them already, though they do deserve to be on display somewhere. I can't get over the clarity of the photos - I am wondering if they were taken by a professional photographer. There must be some experts somewhere who could look at them and advise what you could do with them - National Archives? Imperial War Museum? http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections-research/about/photographs
Every photo has a story to tell - I would love to know more about what is happening in them - I'm sure many depcit very significant events.
PS. Are you able to read any of the names on the crosses?
PPS. It would be very interesting to know if there is anything written on the backs of the photos - a clue to who the original owner was. You should contact PrueM - she may be able to advise you how to 'unglue' a couple of them to check.
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PrueM seems to have dissapeared Ruskie.
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In the meantime, a few more;
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That is a most remarkable collection of photographs, YT. What an amazing find.
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Absolutely fascinating and emotive photographs, YT. Thank-you for posting them.
Maggie
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More to come.
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28
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29
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30
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Outstanding photos shame just cant make out a name on the cross in pic 10 should be able to ID the cemetery if you can
Ady
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That's a good point, Ady; I was looking at the grave picture earlier and trying to make out the names. I'll see if I can make the names a bit clearer.
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Not sure if this is any improvement.
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Could the name be Thom?
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They look as if they have been taken by an official photographer don't they - taken with quite a sophisticated camera you would think.
I suppose it would be able to find out who the war photographers were in Mesopotamia at the time?
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I don't think it is, although I can't make it out with a jewellers loupe on the original photo.
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But, one of the other photos;- ???? [looks like west] N.BERNET ? [looks like RAHG]
?? [might be CR] BREWNSIGG
R.A.WYNN
?? ?? A.D. SENNENCE
Killed in action 14 & 15
On one grave,
Sorry but that was the best I could see aat the moment.
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There's a Richard Alexander Wynn, killed 14 April 1915, buried at Basra War Cemetary, on the CWGC site. Second Lieutenant, Norfolk Regt.
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Sounds good GS.Heres th photo;
31
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Would be great if they could be tracked down
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John Huleatt Brownrigg, of the Norfolk Regiment, was killed on the same day - 14 April 1915. Also buried at Basra War Cemetery.
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Another brave man under the cross at Basra War Cemetery.
Captain Maurice Burnett, R.A.M.C. was killed in action at Shaiba, in Turkish Arabia, on April 14th 1915, aged 26. He was the son of Surgeon- General Burnett, R.A.M.C. (retired), and he was born on October 31st 1888. He was educated at St. George's Hospital where, after taking the M.R.C.S. and L.R.C.P. Lond., in 1911, he served as senior house physician. He entered the R.A.M.C. as Lieutenant on January 26th, 1912, and became Captain on March 30th, 1915, when all the lieutenants of the R.A.M.C. on the active list of the regular army were promoted to Captain.
British Medical Journal 1 May, 1915
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SEMMENCE, ALBERT DAVEY
Regimental Serjeant Major 3326 14/04/1915 40
Norfolk Regiment
Basra War Cemetery
There is a picture of him here http://www.rootschat.com/links/0tsu/
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Shaiba
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Oh WOW! It gets even better! I was praying that you would be able to pick out some names on the crosses! That is history you have right there in that album youngtug! Amazing!
Can you tell me how many photographs are in the album? And if you don't mind, how much you paid for it? (understandable if you prefer not to say ;))
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On one grave,
Actually it looks like the grave has not yet been dug. Was it usual to have several in one grave?
Photo #12 also seems to show several names per grave.
The freshness of these photos is heartbreaking :'(
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It is very sad isn't it. :(
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Seems to me highly likely that there would be several in one grave given the number of dead each day, the hardness of the terrain and the need to get them buried quickly.
There seem to be 4 names on that close grave don't there.
Brings it all home doesn't it! Very sad indeed. Horrific actually.
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Very poignant. I have a similar photo of my OH's uncle's grave in Khartoum in 1943 aged 19. Somehow it seems even sadder to me with their graves in such a hostile unfamiliar (to them)environment.
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[quote author=Ruskie link=topic=645563.msg4923661#msg4923661 date=13675374
Can you tell me how many photographs are in the album? And if you don't mind, how much you paid for it? (understandable if you prefer not to say ;))
[/quote] Just over 150 in this album, some,not many, are no good. I paid £10 for this album along with some more.
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Wonderful photos and thank you so much for sharing them
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There is a window in St Mary's Church, Guildford, dedicated to the memory of John Huleatt Brownrigg:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bananarublev/4484675553/
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Another interesting link to St Mary's Church, Guildford, giving details of the campaign.
http://www.theygavetheirtoday.com/guilford-st-mary.html
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Absolutely fascinating lesson in WWI history and to see it through these remarkably poignant pictures brings the reality home doesn't it?
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More;
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40
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these photos are in excellent condition really aren't they.
What a find - I can't get over it - someone had a good camera!! :D
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YT
Well done for rescuing such a wonderful album. What a find. Thank you so much for sharing these. They are absolutely superb.
Even though it is terribly sad the chaps here will never be forgotten.
Well done again.
Susan
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41
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42
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43
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44
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45
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46
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47
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48
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49
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50
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Wow - they'd cleaned their leggings!! #46 - I think!
I like the fact that the photographer has recorded local life as well as the army activity. :)
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Wow - they'd cleaned their leggings!! #46 - I think!
Probably the batman had, polished the leather gaitors that is
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As you know ;) I've been following each addition with interest since page one. 8)
Good result on the names on #31 ... and love the stained glass window at Guildford.
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£10 for this album has to be the bargain of the decade!
I would really love an explanation for each and every photo. Out of the last few, no 44 has me intrigued. Is that another grave?
No 46 - can anyone read what the sign on the wall says?
No 50 - do some of these men also appear in photo 46. It would be wonderful to be able to ID them. No 49 - this looks fairly distinctive so I wonder if any anyone knows where this is?
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What a wonderful collection. My great uncle was a farrier with an Indian unit of the RFA in Mesopotamia during the war, so I'm following this with the greatest of interest.
How about if I give you twice what you paid for the set? :P
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The fellow sitting on the front left in photo 46 looks very familiar but I'm surprised to see him sitting there amongst his enemies!
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No 46 - can anyone read what the sign on the wall says?
IN???? AIR or AIM - or AIF
Signal
Office
maybe :-\ :-\
Don't you think the front left looks as if he is taking off Hitler - in that same photo. ;)
Wiggy
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Youngtug,
As these photos are of great interest to many people would it be against forum rules for a link for them to be given to the Great War forum as many people on there would be most interested in them. Or, would you, as the owner object.
I do not want to breach any forum rules or, indeed, go against your wishes. It is just an idea as the chaps on the forum are very knowledgeable on WW1 and may even be able to identify images etc. Maybe you have already contacted the Great War forum.
In any event, they are a wonderful collection and you are a star for rescuing them.
Kind regards,
Susan
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Don't you think the front left looks as if he is taking off Hitler - in that same photo. ;)
I thought that too. I doubt he's actually taking him off though as young Adolf was, at that time a relatively unknown corporal on the Western Front!
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Don't you think the front left looks as if he is taking off Hitler - in that same photo. ;)
I thought that too. I doubt he's actually taking him off though as young Adolf was, at that time a relatively unknown corporal on the Western Front!
Very true - OK it is only we late comers who think that!! ;D ;D Should be the other way round shouldn't it!! Hitler taking him off! Obviously! ;)
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Should be the other way round shouldn't it!! Hitler taking him off! Obviously! ;)
Yes! This guy has a lot to answer for.
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Can't improve on your reading of sign on wall in #46 Wiggy ... blurs too much bringing it up further
Some of same group in #50
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In #46 I am wondering if the chap second right, front row, is Major General Sir Charles John Melliss, or General Melliss as he was then, who is said to have been instrumental in the British victory at the Battle of Shaiba.
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In #50, he looks to be the officer commanding the map.
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In #50, he looks to be the officer commanding the map.
This does look like a fairly staged photograph, and he does look important.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_John_Melliss
I think that is not a photo of Melliss. (good old wiki)
because ...
I found this:
http://www.historyofwar.org/Pictures/pictures_townshend_charles.html
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How very interesting Ruskie. Presumably we trust History of War rather than Wiki to get the right photo for the right man ;D
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As the photographer clearly had access to restricted areas, we must assume he had some official status. Would be brilliant if we could find out who he was.
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This link is interesting, detailing how flat bottom boats were used to carry troops and artillery to capture Amara and attempt further advance thereafter.
http://www.firstworldwar.com/battles/amara.htm
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Stanley_Maude
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He didn't go to Mesopotamia until July 1916 which means the photos must have been taken at about that time, or some of them at least. He had been wounded in France in April 1915 and shipped back to England (or should we say Blighty) to recover.
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I think the album covers several years in total. Anyway, more photos;
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Can't help feeling these photos were taken by something more sophisticated than a Brownie Box Camera!
Very interesting - - - -
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What is #57 all about? Was this citadel stormed? Are they indications of where people died?
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What is going on in #57? What are those names about?.
Is #59 the same headland but taken round the left hand corner?
Just catching up on all the latest additions of these remarkable photos. Aren't they clear?
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I didn't say a box camera, I did say that 120 roll film was available about 1900, along with the box camera. Cameras other than plate format would have been available in 1914-15-16-17-18. Even early twin lens cameras [and I know some of those where plate but some used roll film]
These photos are in two sizes; four and a quarter inches by three and a quarter inches. the others are sized 70mm by 47mm
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I think it's the same citadel in both photos, Maggie, but taken from further down the coast. Interestingly there are quite a few photos online taken during the Mesopotamian campaigns so clearly a lot of people took their cameras with them. Mind you I haven't seen a set as comprehensive or exciting as this one.
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I think it's the same citadel in both photos, Maggie, but taken from further down the coast.
I agree - that was what I meant, GS but you put it better ;)
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These photos remind me so much of some 3D sepia pictures my grandmother used to have. I think they were known as stereo photos and you used a wooded viewer to look at the double photos. I was very young but my cousin and I would spend hours looking at them. I remember them as of foreign, hot places, with camels, nomads and battle scenes and we found them quite scarily fascinating.
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Like this one - an example of the type of photo but the ones I remember looking at were of WWI
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Charles_Street_Mall,_Boston_Common,_by_Soule,_John_P.,_1827-1904_3.jpg
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Yes, I remember those too, Maggie.
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61
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62
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63
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64
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65
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66
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Photo #57
Those look like the names of ships.
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Are they what I think they are in #66, YT? How sad.
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Yes Maggie.
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Thank you very much youngtug for the opportunity to view your wonderful ' find ' - I sat my
husband down and we looked together at all the photos. So much to see and to discuss. Will take
another look later for sure.
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I didn't say a box camera, I did say that 120 roll film was available about 1900, along with the box camera. Cameras other than plate format would have been available in 1914-15-16-17-18. Even early twin lens cameras [and I know some of those where plate but some used roll film]
These photos are in two sizes; four and a quarter inches by three and a quarter inches. the others are sized 70mm by 47mm
Sorry YT - misunderstanding - just commenting that thought the Brownie Box may have been available by then, many of these don't appear to have been taken on one! ;) ;)
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Amazing photos; my grandfather's brother died in Mesopotamia in October 1918 :(
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Yes Maggie.
A sad but inevitable conclusion I suppose.
I cannot get over the clarity of these pictures.
Emmeline - I've been telling my OH about them and he'll be taking a look himself tomorrow. It's a wonderful history lesson.
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A few more this evening;
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68
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I see the poorer quality of some of these that you mentioned youngtug. I agree with those who've speculated that the majority of these look like professional photographs, and it would be wonderful to find out who took them. Has anyone alerted our Armed Forces board about these photos?
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Re Photo 62. He looks important - anyone recognize him or hazard a guess as to who he might be?
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Has anyone alerted our Armed Forces board about these photos?
I haven't but will do so. I wasn't sure wether to post them here or one of the armed forces boards but I thought with the WW1 heading it might catch their eye, whereas if it was on the armed forces boards it would restrict the audience a little.
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Yes, I think a link to this thread on the Armed Forces board would be a good idea. There may be someone who can pop over to ID some of the locations or people. :)
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82
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90
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What long fingers on the pair in the last photo!
What a pity there will be so few if any people alive from that time who will be able to help with any identification! :(
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Hi youngtug:
Are photos 85 and 88 troop transport vessels?
sami
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Don't think so, what they are I don't know.
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Wondered if you had seen this website?
http://www.mespot.net
There are about 300 photos, many of which are captioned. Thought the section on 'Boats & Red Cross' might be of some value.
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Interesting.
Some more boats to follow on here but nothing is named or explained.
91
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92
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93
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94
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My guess at the location is present day Iraq; or just possibly Aden. Fascinating either way. The tragedy is that there are vandals who would put such an item into a car boot sale; I suppose it is better than a skip though!!
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I think we did place some of the earlier ones in Basra, if I remember correctly.
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A lot to read back GS. Maybe Redroger didn't see that discussion before he posted his comment
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I seem to have spent hours reading websites relating to the Mesopotamian campaigns of WW1 since you first posted the photos YT. I am amazed at how much I have learnt and, to my shame, how little I knew about WW1 in this area of the world.
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Me to GS, and to my shame because my grandfather was there for a while before he went to France and Belgium.
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NOT Aden, of that I'm certain ! Spent my honeymoon there for a month !!
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A lot to read back GS. Maybe Redroger didn't see that discussion before he posted is comment
Correct; it was prompted by a quick browse of these absolutely fascinating.
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a quick browse.
:o Surely an in depth study is needed ::)
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More;
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100
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101
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102
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103
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104
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106
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108
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110
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Wouldn't you just love someone to come out of the woodwork to explain the places and context for all these marvellous photos!
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I've just skimmed through the whole lot, YT .... what an absolutely incredible collection, and a very lucky purchase .... must be worth hundreds, not the tenner you paid for them.
What they show is daily life for soldiers on that front in WW1 in a way I've not seen before .... you really get a feel for what was happening, what it was like .... I will go through the whole lot again, and study each in more detail.
And I might start going to car boot sales !!
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A lot more to catch up on since my last visit to your fascinating thread YT. What a richly illustrated glimpse of a slice of history I knew nothing about. Thank-you for posting them.
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I haven't looked properly yet, but the link provided by Sami is very interesting. I would be interested to know if we can id any of the album photos with those on Sami's site which are named - maybe some of the buildings might be identifiable?
I did have a look on google maps at various ports in the area, in an attempt to id one photo in particular taken from the water showing what looks like a port with distinctive mountains (and I think a castle) behind it. The landscape around most of the ports I looked at was perfectly flat. I note that there are some mountainous areas around the Gulf of Oman - maybe somewhere like Muscat or near Ras al Khaimah?
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http://www.awm.gov.au/collection/records/awmohww1/aif/vol5/awmohww1-aif-vol5-app5.pdf
This link should take you to the Australian War Memorial's pdf files, one in particular as it is about the AIF in Mesopotamia during WWI.
Cheers, JM
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It is difficult to pick out many of the locations, but #3 was taken at Shiba Fort.
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Very interesting link majm, I had a read through earlier this morning but I think that it needs a more relaxed and in depth read.
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It seems to me that some of the photographs, as we mentioned previously, relate to the Battle of Shaiba which took place on 12th - 14th April 1915. As I recently posted, #3 is Shaiba (aka Shiba) Fort. It is recorded that because of flooding in the area, the British moved from Basra to the Shaiba area by boat, having fitted some of them with mounted guns (I wonder if #30 is one of the boats used). When the British took control of Shaiba Fort they dug a trench around it and added a post and wire fence (both of which can be seen in #3). The Ottoman army attacked on 12th April but were repulsed and eventually fell back. The British Army went after them and engaged with them on the 14th April, the British being victorious despite suffering heavy losses.
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#32 shows the British tents to the side of Shaiba Fort.
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I am wondering if #58 shows the Battle of Shaiba. Reports of the battle state that after their initial attack was repulsed the Ottoman troops tried to detour round Shaiba, the British went forward to attack and were repulsed. However their second attack was made sending out the 2nd Dorsets and 24th Punjabis backed by artillery fire. This attack was successful and the Ottoman forces fell back.
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And a few other comments:
#76 - looks as though the men on the ground might be prisoners.
#67 and 68 - both photos are of the same place, the first showing the guns in place, the second with personnel and horses ready to move out.
#88 and 92 - could these be hospital ships?
#102 and 110 - collecting water, photos taken at the same place.
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http://www.1914-1918.net/mespot.htm
"This section of the Long, Long Trail will be helpful for anyone wishing to find out about the fighting in the campaign in Mesopotamia"
Cheers, JM
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Interesting links - a lot of reading when I'm lawn mowing and planting. GS is doing a great job at possible photo identification. Not such an easy task over 22 pages.
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This might have been commented before but could one of the men on the pics of the officers at #46 & #50 be Major General Townshend?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesopotamian_campaign
Back to the weeding now :)
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I'm amazed that you have managed to ID some of the photos greensleeves. I'm finding myself getting a bit lost in the pages of this thread now that there are so many of them, so I think you've done really well.
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This might have been commented before but could one of the men on the pics of the officers at #46 & #50 be Major General Townshend?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesopotamian_campaign
Do you think it might be the seated one far right in #46 and the one with the map in #50?
There are a lot of names mentioned in the above link. ;)
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I wondered if he was at the right of the Hitler look-alike on#46 and seated to the left of the pipe smoker on #50.
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At #46, the chap seated second from the right .... does he bear some resemblance to Frederick Maude? (in Maggie's link above,click on his name in the panel on the right under Commanders and Leaders). Or is it just wishful thinking and the big moustache ... ;D (I think face shape is a pretty similar)
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I wondered if he was tO the right of the Hitler look-alike on#46 and seated to the left of the pipe smoker on #50.
Um, not sure. I didn't think so until you pointed it out, now I'm confused. He definitely appears in both #46 and #50, but I'm not sure about the other chaps.
(by the way, if anyone is looking at #46, scroll down the page to #49 - this is the photo I feel sure must be identifiable) as the mountains are so distinctive, and to the right appears to be a ridge with a castle and other buildings built along it.
Isn't there a photo identify programme? I remember reading about it on rootschat ages ago - I think you may have to download the photo and the programme matches it? :-\
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Just googled and found this:
http://www.tineye.com/
There may be others.
Would you be willing to give something like this a try with #49 youngtug? ;)
Added: I managed to work out how to do it myself - sadly 0 results. :(
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Not successful so far.
More photos;
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112
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113
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114
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115
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116
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117
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#46
Looks like ....th Arm Air Signal Office
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Has anyone alerted our Armed Forces board about these photos?
I haven't but will do so. I wasn't sure wether to post them here or one of the armed forces boards but I thought with the WW1 heading it might catch their eye, whereas if it was on the armed forces boards it would restrict the audience a little.
I have alerted the GWF with John's permission. They are interested in these for obvious reasons. Again thank you YT. These are just wonderful.
Susan
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I have been using the photos on the link posted by Sami to try to ID some of the photos. As you say Ruskie, with so many it makes the head hurt after a while!
I think #17 page 4 was also taken from Shaiba Fort as it shows a prominence on the horizon which, on Sami's link, is annotated as "used for observing Turks on the Shiba Battlefield".
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,645563.30.html
http://www.mespot.net/34.jpg
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I haven't got the energy to try and ID the places, but I've been looking again at the pictures in more detail. The number of horses ! Would they have all been taken to Mespot by the armies ? Or obtained when they got there ? The latter doesn't seem likely for they wouldnt be trained as British army horses were ...
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Following on -
If anyone wants the link back to GWF to see what the chaps on there make of the photos - here goes. Fingers crossed it works.
http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=194282#entry1901965 (http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=194282#entry1901965)
Susan
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It works !!
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YES! Positive ID for Photo 49. Muscat! ;D
(Thanks to Susan's link)
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YES! Positive ID for Photo 49. Muscat! ;D
(Thanks to Susan's link)
As I deduced:
I did have a look on google maps at various ports in the area, in an attempt to id one photo in particular taken from the water showing what looks like a port with distinctive mountains (and I think a castle) behind it. The landscape around most of the ports I looked at was perfectly flat. I note that there are some mountainous areas around the Gulf of Oman - maybe somewhere like Muscat or near Ras al Khaimah?
8)
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Hoping for IDs for some of the men in #50 now. :)
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Photos #40 and #44 are Shaiba as you can see the lookout post (mentioned in relation to #17 previously) on the horizon.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Shaiba gives details of the battle. The Ottomans were eventually beaten by a bayonet charge which seems to have been a risky but effective final effort by the Dorsets.
A far cry from modern day fire-power with drones operated from thousands of miles away .......
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#81, page 17, is the Arch of Ctesiphon, where the Allies suffered heavy casualties in November 1915, before being defeated by the Turks and having to retreat to Kut.
http://www.1914.org/podcasts/podcast-18-mesopotamia/
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That link was posted early on in this thread, Lydart, but probably doesn't hurt to have it again!
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#88 and 92 - could these be hospital ships?
I've been interested in the vessels in these photos. Have been thinking that any hospital ships or transports for the wounded would be more clearly marked as such.
Trying to catch up now with everything on this thread - always amazed at how much has been done while I've been sleeping ;D
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That link was posted early on in this thread, Lydart, but probably doesn't hurt to have it again!
Oops .... I've been looking at the pictures and ignoring the words ! :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[
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Photograph # 113
This looks like the remains of the Turkish gunship MARMARISS which was run aground and captured in June 1915. It compares with a photograph from the Illustrated War News of October 1915 (as shown on http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=80&t=121164 ).
Bill
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Afew more;
118
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119
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120
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121
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122
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123
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124
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125
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126
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127
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128
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129
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130
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131
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I found this site a few days ago, promptly lost it and now have only just found it again.
http://warpost.blogsome.com/photo-archive-mesopotamian-expeditionary-force/
This is a large site with quite a few links and I've only really looked for captioned photos for Mesopotamia. To get there click on:
Wilfred Owen Multimedia Digital Archive -then in the upper right and corner click on Great War Archive and enter the search term Mesopotamia. One of the many results is the Photograph album of Capt. W. Harold Morgan: Mesopotamia
This information is available for research as long as the proper reference citations are used. My apologies if it has already been listed - this thread is getting long :P
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Might it be a good idea for YoungTug to start a second thread, with links to this one and vice versa ?
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Photograph # 113
This looks like the remains of the Turkish gunship MARMARISS which was run aground and captured in June 1915. It compares with a photograph from the Illustrated War News of October 1915 (as shown on http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=80&t=121164 ).
Bill
Oh well spotted RBC!
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I think #120 is the Marmariss too, by the look of the funnel.
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Agreed Greensleeves - differing stages of disintrigation by the looks of it.
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So we have positive ID on two more of the pics! Not bad eh?
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Just the last few;
131
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132
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133
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134
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135
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136
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137
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138
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139
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140
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141
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142
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143
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144
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145
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146
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147
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148
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149
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150
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That's it, all the photo's are here.
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Thank-you YT for scanning this wonderful archive. It must have taken you many hours of work.
At the moment I've 10 pages open linked to various pictures and web pages as I keep getting diverted away to read up a bit more about the Mesopotamian campaign, about which I knew next to nothing until a few days ago. Fascinating stuff.
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Pictures 147, 148 and 149 remind me of the reed 'mudhifs' which used to be built in the marshes around the Tigris/Euphrates and which featured in the book by Wilfred Theisiger 'Marsh Arabs'. I've got a copy somewhere and will have to find it !
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I have been trying to ID the top brass on the two photos early on in this thread; no luck so far though. Trouble is that they all look the same!
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It's those Hitler 'tashes that do it. I sort of thought one of them could be General Townshend but a stab in the dark really.
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I agree Maggie, I have Major Gen Charles Townsend as a possible, along with Gen Sir Percy Lake, John Nixon and Sir Frederick Stanley Maude... oh and Maj Gen Charles Mellis, of course. But as they all seem to look identical with their moustaches and fine breeding it is very difficult to tell one from t'other!
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What is that animal at #145? (a couple of them appear though less clear in earlier photos)
And ... what is happening in #141?
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And ... what is happening in #141?
Possibly women turning away from the camera because they did not want to be photographed?
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What is that animal at #145? (a couple of them appear though less clear in earlier photos)
Could it be a jackal?
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What is that animal at #145? (a couple of them appear though less clear in earlier photos)
Could it be a jackal?
That was my thought too!
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After looking all day, I found this topic on rootschat ;D
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,341680.msg2206164.html#msg2206164
...and that led me to 'The Inland Water Transport in Mesopotamia' written in 1921. I've only had a quick glance through but there are quite a few plates and it looks like a very interesting read. It should help in identifying the various vessels and maybe some of the locations in the photos:
http://archive.org/details/inlandwatertrans00hall
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What is that animal at #145? (a couple of them appear though less clear in earlier photos)
Could it be a jackal?
That was my thought too!
Yes, thanks I have just checked a few images and it looks like a jackal. :)
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And ... what is happening in #141?
Possibly women turning away from the camera because they did not want to be photographed?
I originally thought the one on the right was a man urinating against the wall (due to the way the figure is standing), but then realised that they were both women due to dark clothes and covered face, and probably incorrect clothing arrangement to be a urinating male. ;)
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Just women clothed in burqas I'd say, although in more recent times during the Afghan war at least one male English TV news reporter used a burka to conceal his intent.
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Report on the event is here:-
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/september/22/newsid_4073000/4073858.stm
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Just women clothed in burqas I'd say, although in more recent times during the Afghan war at least one male English TV news reporter used a burka to conceal his intent.
Yes I think so. :)
I'm sure he wasn't the first male to hide under such a disguise - I hope he kept his hands hidden (they look very manly and would be a dead giveaway ;))
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I think that sami's link to the online archives book about the inland water transport of Mesopotamia is very informative, not only does it have pictures of the boats in use but also several of the staff of the campaign. Of some interest may be the list of dead soldiers near the end of the book.
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Of some interest may be the list of dead soldiers near the end of the book.
Starting at page 187 is a list of officers of the I.W.T who were kiburied in Mesopotamia and elsewhere.
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I've downloaded it. Plenty in there to keep me busy. Thanks for the link sami.
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I've downloaded it. Plenty in there to keep me busy. Thanks for the link sami.
Your most welcome. I've also downloaded it to my desktop but still haven't had a chance to look through it yet.
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Two more books; http://archive.org/stream/mesopotamia00palmuoft#page/n3/mode/2up
and; http://archive.org/stream/inmesopotamia00swayuoft#page/n0/mode/2up
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I don't think the dog at 145 is a jackal .... too broad in the face. When I was in Aden, I remember many stray 'pi' dogs around the place and they looked just like the one in the photo.
The tall straw/reed buildings in photos 146 - 148 are featured here http://www.rootschat.com/links/0tuh/ in some of the photos, as in Theisigers book 'Marsh Arabs' I mentioned a few pages back.
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Hi youngtug:
Is there some way to organize the information that identifies various photos? It would be helpful if we could see what has already been done so that we don't duplicate each others work.
For instance, I think photo #97 is Ezra's Tomb on the western shore of the Tigris. It took quite a while to scroll back through all 31 pages to see if it had already been identified. And perhaps you already knew that.
Based on an old postcard found on the internet and the description on page 27 in 'Letters from Mesopotamia in 1915 and January, 1916', I think photo #63 (and possibly #1) were taken in Ashar Creek, Basrah.
Also some of the information found is in bits and pieces but should eventually add up to a more complete description. Example, the barge in photos #94 and #96 is of the 'C Class' measuring in length from 100' to 140' (Inland Water Transport, pg. 168).
What do you suggest?
sami
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sami, apart from starting new threads for each individual line of research I have no idea.
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I think Sami's idea is a good one; in fact I had already started compiling a rudimentary list of places we think we have identified. I will continue with said list and then post it and then people can copy it to their PCs, add any new ones and post it back, unless anyone can think of a better plan. Perhaps we could make a new thread when list is ready? I was thinking of putting Photo No, page no and location.
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If it is just one thread then it will soon become crowded and not much different to this one for access. I started this thread just to display the photos, I had no idea of the interest that would be shown in them. I think that if it is acceptable then several threads, each dealing with a specific area of research, I can submit the required photos as requested on each separate thread. Is it worth doing and would it be acceptable to rootschat
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We have gone way over the 20 page allowance now and it is going to get confusing if it gets much longer; but on the other hand if we split it up, it is also going to get muddled. I think I'll post the beginning of the list of where I think photos were taken (and I'll try to add in other people's suggestions too) and we can take it from there.
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This is the beginning of the list. At least it gives people some structure so contributors can check these out and say whether or not they agree and where necessary offer alternative locations.
#1
#2
#3 p 1 Shaiba Fort
#4 p 1 Ashar Creek, Basra
#5 p 1 Inside Shaiba Fort
#6
#7 p 1 Battle of Shaiba
#8 p 2
#9 p 2 The Square, Basra
#10 p 2 Graves, Shaiba
#11 p 2 Battle of Shaiba
#12 p 2 Graves, Shaiba
# 13 p 3 Battle of Shaiba
#14
#15 p 3 Battle of Shaiba
#16 p 3 Battle of Shaiba
#17 p 4 View from Shaiba Fort
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This helps a lot, GS ...... thanks.
Despite desparately wanting to, I don't have that much free time at the moment to settle down to this so a list that shows what has already been hopefully identified at least means that time isn't spend replicating work that has already been done by others. It does indeed take ages to scroll through the pages to check.
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Another thought.
How would it work if initially a thread was started with say the first 20 photos only reposted and a request for identification and observations? As GS has already made great inroads into these first 20 perhaps the thread would soon be completed, but any discussions arising from these photos could be more easily managed and understood.
At some point, after a period of time, another thread could be started with the next 20 pictures ...... and so on.
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Maggie, that certainly sounds more manageable doesn't it!
Watching this thread with interest all the time!
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I think that would be a great idea, Maggie and Wiggy, if YT's up for it. Twenty at a time would be manageable and once we'd gone as far with the first 20, we could go on to the next set.
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Hi Young Tug...What a great find...I'm sure the Great War Archive would be interested in these:
http://www.oucs.ox.ac.uk/ww1lit/gwa/
Carol
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Well...I go away for a few days (doing both modern army and period army stuff lol) and i come back to this absolute goldmine!!!!
Well done to the Young Tug for rescuing them.
Funnily enough, I went to a car boot on sunday (in the midst of my multiple locations!!) and picked up a pair of 1917 dated officers breeches of a very light khaki sand colour (for the most extortionate fee of £1.00 . They very much match my collection of WW1 KD uniforms and kit that I have. If anyone wants to see some of these uniforms in their original state I can pop up a few piccies....The "pith" hats too...both styles :)
I would love to spend a rainy afternoon going through the originals and getting some more int from them. You all seem to have done quite a grand job this far without me though :P
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I have also been asked to curate a large part of the "Soldiers of Oxfordshire" exhibition as it moves into its new home in Woodstock...
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Oh and BTW...The aircraft is a BE2c ;D
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Yes please to seeing Scrimnet's uniform pictures .... but on a new thread perhaps ??
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of course!! ::) 8)
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I think that would be a great idea, Maggie and Wiggy, if YT's up for it. Twenty at a time would be manageable and once we'd gone as far with the first 20, we could go on to the next set.
...only a suggestion here, but if YT is going to repost, perhaps the photos could be regrouped by subject matter.
I like the list idea by greensleeves, so to add to it:
#1 p1 Ashar Creek, Basrah
Are we adding information beyond the first 20 photos?
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I was going to collate all the locations for photos that we have so far, sami, so if you want to let me have any I'll put them on the list. Then I suppose they could be posted in batches of 20.
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I think that if we start a new thread naming a location I can then post the photos that have been identified to be of that location. Shall I start a thread on the WW1 board?
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I think it would be better to put them on the WW1 board but in batches of 20, asking for locations to be added. If we already know the locations it's not much point in re-posting.
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I was going to collate all the locations for photos that we have so far, sami, so if you want to let me have any I'll put them on the list. Then I suppose they could be posted in batches of 20.
I'm still confused but thats normal :)
If you are doing a master list I'll just add information as I find it and count on you to collate it all. Then whenever you think best you can post more batches with all the information you have gathered together. I've already posted some but just in case:
#1 pg 1 Ashar Creek, Basrah
#43 pg 9 The Square, Basrah
#48 pg 9 Bandaling (Inland Water Transport in Mespotamia, pg 80,81)
#63 pg 14 Ashar Creek, Basrah
#97 pg 19 Ezra's Tomb
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I have started a thread, concerning the Battle of Shaiba; http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,646243.new.html#new
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photo #56 pg 12 Shatt-al-Arab (flows south of Basrah to the Persian Gulf)
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I wonder if the BE2c aircraft arrived to reinforce the Mesopotamian half flight? Or is that too fancicful.
"Reinforcements for the squadron arrived in the shape of the
long-promised new flight of four B.E.2.c machines from England,
which reached Basra at the end of October [1915] and the fighting
front on November 20th, two days before the battle of Ctesiphon
began.
Some account of their journey up-river from Kut is worth the telling; it
is graphic of the worries of the river-line of comn~unication. The aviation
staff officer writes :-"On November 14th Tug T3 (towing the lighter with two B.E.2.c
machines) missed the channel twelve miles up and ran aground, then drifting sideways in
the current and becoming badly stuck..."
The above is from the official Australian history, the half flight was part of 30 Sqn RFC and the first Australian Air unit to see active duty.
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Photos #34 and #38 pg 8 Sinbad's Tower, Sobier
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As I'll be away for a few days, here is the list so far of the locations we think we have identified:
#1 p1 Ashar Creek
#3 p 1 Shaiba Fort
#4 p 1 Ashar Creek, Basra
#5 p 1 Inside Shaiba Fort
#7 p 1 Battle of Shaiba
#9 p 2 The Square, Basra
#10 p 2 Graves, Shaiba
#11 p 2 Battle of Shaiba
#12 p 2 Graves, Shaiba
# 13 p 3 Battle of Shaiba
#15 p 3 Battle of Shaiba
#16 p 3 Battle of Shaiba
#17 p 4 View from Shaiba Fort showing lookout post on horizon
#21 p4 Shaiba
#28 p5 Shaiba, tents
#29 p5 Boats being adapted to take guns
#31 p6 Graves, Shaiba
#32 p8 British tents, Shaiba Fort
#34 p8 Sinbad’s Tower, Sobier
#36 p8 Shaiba
#38 p8 Sinbad’s Tower, Sobier
#40 p8 Shaiba
#43 p9 The Square, Basra
#44 p9 Shaiba
#48 p9 Bandaling
#49 p9 Muscat
#56 p12 Shatt-al-Arab
#58 Battle of Shaiba
#63 p14 Ashar Creek
#67) Gun carriages being prepared for battle
#68) Gun carriages moving out
#81 p12 Arch of Ctesiphon
#89 p18 Bagdad
#94 p18 Class C barge
#96 p19 Class C barge
#97 p19 Ezra’s Tomb
#102) p21 Collecting water -
#110) p22 same location
#113 p23 Wreck of Turkish gunship Marmariss
#120 p25 Wreck of turkish gunship Marmariss
#131 p27 Bagdad
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To stop this thread going out of control I am going to lock it. Please see the link to the new thread concerning the battle of Shaiba.
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I've run out of steam on these photos and just have a couple more observations:
#98 pg 19 - the same C class barge shows up in this photo as in photos #94 and #96. The configuration of vessels is the same and all three photos were probably taken at the same time. Couldn't identify the location properly but based in the signal/observation tower I'm guessing Amara on the Tigris.
#85 pg 17 - can't prove it but guessing its the same place as 94, 96, and 98.
#122 pg 26 - Mahaila - native craft
Had a few ideas on several more but wondered if anyone else has been adding to the list?
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I think not sami, I thought I had locked this thread and started another about the battle of shaiba, maybe I should start one concerning the boats.
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Thank you for posting. The photographer must have been a professional. The quality of the shots bears this out. His camera caught pictures taken when the subjects were in motion. There are several photos there of high rank arabs maybe shaikhs. I presume if the backgrounds could be identified Oman for instance would love to get copies. Sandra
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That's an interesting thought Sandra.
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F or various reasons I have decided to sell these ,and other photos I have. It was not, and is not my intention to use this forum for this purpose but I thought that I should let everyone that has had so much interaction with them know what my intentions are.
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Hi,
I was hoping for permission to use some of the Indian Army specific photos on my website - www.king-emperor.com (I would have PM'd you but I'm not allowed yet). I saw this on 1914-18.net. Please do let me know, as it would be much appreciated. Full credit given etc...
(oh, and if for sale, do let me know the venue/price/etc - PM me - hopefully I'm allowed to respond!)
Thanks,
Christopher
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You need to make another 2 posts to be able to communicate via the PM system.
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Ok.
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I understand
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I am very interested in your photos , 57, 59, 88 and 131 as I have been researching my Gt Uncles Naval record and find that he was on HMS Miner in 1913 at Muscat, Oman (receiving Persian Clasp) and there is a photo of HMS Miner on the web of Cuthbert Helsham Heath -Caldwell with the same background. Also there is a diary which is an insite as to the events of the time which were pre WW1.
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Thank you so much for posting these! My Grand Uncle George Herbert John Seville of the Royal Artillery was killed in action on 14th April 1915 during what must have been the counterattack on the Ottoman forces which had previously attacked Basra on 12th April. He was 28 years old and he is buried in plot III grave D6 of the British War Cemetary at Al Hakemeia, Al Basra, Iraq. A little over a year later, my Grandfather was born and he was given the middle name George in memory of his fallen brother. We have kept the memory going, both my father and I also have the middle name George. I can't identify George in any of the photos but one of those gun emplacements just could have been his.
Once again, many thanks for posting these photos.
Antony George Seville
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My pleasure.
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These photos are brilliant, very sad that someone would get rid of them, well done for saving them.
They have given me an insight to this area, as I recently found out that my great, great uncle had died over there during the first world war; he fought with the HLI.
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fascinating
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Such amazing photos. Stumbled on this link, googling my Great Great Grandfather's name (Albert Davey Semmence). Sent chills through me seeing his grave. Amazing seeing all these pictures. Would love to have been the one to find these at a boot sale. Never managed to find much out about Albert Davey Semmence other than that he was the youngest ever Regimental Seargent Major of the Norfolk Regiment, was killed by bayonet and buried in Basra. My father has always wanted to track his grave down. Amazing photos
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Wow! :o As a collector of found photography, these are some of the best I've ever seen, and very good quality, yes I'm a wee bit envious, I know that's wrong... :D
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#4 - that's sure a crowded waterway. Very interesting photos!
Terrific find again.
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Such amazing photos. Stumbled on this link, googling my Great Great Grandfather's name (Albert Davey Semmence). Sent chills through me seeing his grave. Amazing seeing all these pictures. Would love to have been the one to find these at a boot sale. Never managed to find much out about Albert Davey Semmence other than that he was the youngest ever Regimental Seargent Major of the Norfolk Regiment, was killed by bayonet and buried in Basra. My father has always wanted to track his grave down. Amazing photos
WoW!!!!...So pleased for you...that is amazing...That's the power of Rootschat.
Carol
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These are the best stories :)
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These are the best stories :)
Don't you just love it when it's a "Feelgood Thread" :)
Frank.
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Such amazing photos. Stumbled on this link, googling my Great Great Grandfather's name (Albert Davey Semmence). Sent chills through me seeing his grave. Amazing seeing all these pictures. Would love to have been the one to find these at a boot sale. Never managed to find much out about Albert Davey Semmence other than that he was the youngest ever Regimental Seargent Major of the Norfolk Regiment, was killed by bayonet and buried in Basra. My father has always wanted to track his grave down. Amazing photos
http://www.masonicgreatwarproject.org.uk/writeup.php?string=2763
and;
http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/631465/SEMMENCE,%20ALBERT%20DAVEY