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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Sussex => England => Sussex Lookup Requests => Topic started by: eddie marsh on Friday 03 May 13 13:48 BST (UK)
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Hi,
I'm new to this so sorry if I'm doing it wrong! ::). I have been tracing my family and have come to a dead end. I have traced the Marsh side back to my great grand father Joseph Marsh with some confidence to a marriage record in 1883 to Emma Parker. On this Joseph's father is listed as Henry Marsh, but I can't find any other records for him on the usual search sites. The marriage took place at st Peter-The Great church, chichester 30 jun 1883. Josephs birth date is 1853. I have found a birth record for Henry at the same church on 10 jun 1808 with parents William and maria. This will add up as it makes Henry 45 when Joseph was born. However I could do with a little mare evidence to prove my theory. Can anyone help please with confirmation or any other info as it looks like this church was a focal point to my family. Any help would be much appreciated, Regards Eddie
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Hello and welcome :)
Have you had a look for Joseph in the censuses - does he give Chichester as his birthplace? If you've found him prior to marriage, who is he with?
Another question - what was Henry Marsh's occupation stated to be on Joseph's marriage record, and who were the witnesses? What was Joseph's occupation and address at the time of marriage?
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I've now had a look and it seems Joseph is easily found after marriage, claiming a birthplace of Chichester abt 1852-3, but tricky to trace before his marriage.
If you've had similar difficulties, the details from the marriage certificate will be all the more important if that is the earliest concrete sighting of Joseph. Was he said to be a bachelor?
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I note that when Joseph (labourer of Tower Street) and Emma's son Henry was baptised in 1885 Joseph gave his full name as, Joseph Henry Marsh. He was Joseph on all subsequent baptisms for their children (1887 up to 1900) which were at St. Bartholemews Church in Chichester. Having failed to find Joseph on any earlier documentation, one line of thought is that he could have initially been listed as Henry in those earlier censuses and records. FreeBMD however, does not seem to have a birth registered for him as Joseph or Henry Marsh in the Chichester area around 1853, although there is a birth registered in Chichester in 1851 for a Henry MARCH who appears to come from Bury nearby.
There being few other alternatives, you might be interested in the 1851 Chichester census which shows a 26 year old unmarried Charlotte Marsh with her 7 year old son William Leonard Marsh. SFHG and IGI record his baptism at St Martins Chichester in 1843, to Charlotte Marsh, single woman. Charlotte, who had been baptised at St. Peters Chichester in Nov 1824, was the daughter of Thomas & Mary Marsh. You could investigate to see if Joseph was a further base born child of Charlotte's, who may appear in the GRO birth registers under his father's surname (rather than Marsh) and is then entered in the 1861-1881 censuses under the surname of who ever had responsibility for his care.
It is not uncommon in those circumstances to only revert to a parent's surname when finally marrying. For example, there is a double record for the birth of Charlotte's son William Leonard Marsh in FreeBMD 1843, for he also appears in those records as William 'Leonard.' When he marries later in Westbourne near Chichester in 1864 he is back to being William Leonard Marsh. Charlotte and William L Marsh also appear in the Chichester census indexes for 1861, but I do not know whether they were together or if Charlotte had any other children with her. They appear in the reverse order and I speculate William was just in the care of Charlotte's parents by then. Finding that, or those two entries in the 1861 census might be a rewarding line of further investigation.
Roy G
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I thought I would add that if Charlotte Marsh did turn out to be the mother of your Joseph, there is a contradictory entry for her death. FreeBMD states that in 1868 a 43 year old Charlotte Marsh died in Chichester (therefore an ideal match because born c 1825) whilst the SFHG transcript of that record states she was 78. Roy G
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Thanks for your replies. Unfortunately I don’t have the marriage certificate. I am pretty certain that the records I have for Joseph are correct from Family Search for post marriage years. This shows Joseph Marsh born 1853 marrying Emma Parker, (born 1858) on 30 June 1883 at St Peter-the-great church. Grooms Parent Henry Marsh, bride’s father John Parker. No other info is listed on this record.
John Parker was born in Chichester so all clues point to Chichester based families.
Joseph’s Census records show birth place Chichester in the 1891, 1901 and 1911 census maybe incorrectly?
I have found one record for a Henry Marsh christened 10 June 1808 at St Peter-the-Great, Chichester, (same church as Joseph’s marriage record). His parents were William and Maria. This would make Henry 45 years old when Joseph was born so he may have been married before?
However, another record that I thought maybe them was a Joseph Gardener Marsh christened 04 Nov 1853 at St Andrews Church in Deal, Kent. Fathers name Henry William and Mothers name Lucy Jane. Lucy is a popular name in my family and was Joseph’s first named female child.
Note: My records show children of Joseph are- Lucy 1883, Henry 1885, Edward 1887, Emily 1889, Annie 1891, Joseph 1894 and Albert 1900
Eddie ???
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Hi Eddie
Welcome to Rootschat :D
I can go to the West Sussex Records Office and have a look at the marriage for you - the entry will have all details that are recorded on the marriage certificate. I should be able to go on Friday. Do you want any other St Peter the Great entries checke dwhile I'm there?
Jan ;)
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Hi Eddie
I think the main problem you will come up against is the lack of a birth registration for Joseph anywhere in Sussex or any appearance on a Sussex census as Joseph Marsh prior to 1891. Those facts tend to undermine permanency of his residency in Chichester as Joseph Marsh. Hence I suggested you gave some serious consideration to the fact that he may have been illegitimate and spent his initial years being brought up by someone else, seeing them as his parents and living under their surname. Furthermore, if his middle name was Gardner, why say it was Henry when his first child Henry was baptised in Chichester in 1885?
Roy G
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However, another record that I thought maybe them was a Joseph Gardener Marsh christened 04 Nov 1853 at St Andrews Church in Deal, Kent. Fathers name Henry William and Mothers name Lucy Jane. Lucy is a popular name in my family and was Joseph’s first named female child.
The trouble with Joseph Gard(e)ner Marsh is that, as Joseph Marsh, he appears to be still single and with his mother Lucy in Deal in 1891, at which time "your" Joseph is of course with his wife Emma.
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Just to add: I think it would be very dangerous to make a leap back to the Henry Marsh baptised in Chichester in 1808. At the moment there's no evidence (I think?) that that Henry even survived to the 1850s, let alone that he fathered your Joseph. I can't see any obvious sign of him in the censuses. Even if he did live to adulthood, he may not have stayed in Chichester - I see that his likely brother George, baptised in Chichester in 1805 to parents William and Maria, was settled in London by (at the latest) 1825, when he and his wife Caroline baptised a daughter Emma in Holborn - with many more to follow in the same area.
Much better to do a real forensic exercise on Joseph and find out who he was and where he hailed from. Jan's kind offer to look up the marriage may yield vital information.
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Jan,
thanks for your very kind offer, yes please, can you capture all info from this marriage cert, (including and witnesses, occupation and address) and hopefully it may lead us further. I'm not sure about any other names at the moment, but think the advise given is good in that I should have as much info about Joseph before jumping to any conclusions. Thanks to everyones guidance, much appreciated and any further assistance is most welcome. Eddie
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Looking forward to hearing what Jan is able to turn up for you :)
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Eddie
Yes I will post all information for the marriage. Do you want a picture of St Peter the Great (now a bar/restaurant)? I'll be walking past it so no problem.
Jan ;)
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Jan,
I have seen one on the internet, but if its not too much trouble, thanks. :)
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Jan: Having stuck my neck in a noose by suggesting the mother of Joseph MAY BE CHARLOTTE MARSH an unmarried mum, when you are in WSRO, could you also look up the marriage of Charlotte's 'other' son William Leonard Marsh in Westbourne near Chichester during the June quarter of 1864, just to see who his witnesses were. I still feel it a possibility that these two may have been half brothers.
Roy G.
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Yes will do that Roy. I looked them up in 1861 but Charlotte has no children with her only a male lodger and William is a bugler in the militia living with other buglers in Little London, Chichester. Charlotte is with her father Thomas in 41 no Maria. Thomas is with a wife Maria in 1851 but she must be a second wife of the same name as there is a son of 23 James Blake. I can't them in 61.
Jan ;)
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Thanks Jan. To narrow down the check out on that other marriage, of the two possible wives FreeBMD offers as partners of William Leonard Marsh, only Eliza Jane Arnold was from the Westbourne area. She was living in Westbourne in 1861 giving a parish of birth of Bosham so I would think you more likely to find that marriage either in Westbourne itself or failing that, in a Bosham church during late March to June 1864. Roy G
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Thanks Roy
Jan ;)
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Hi
The marriage details are as follows, not sure they are going to be too helpful.
St Peter the Great 30 Jun 1883
Joseph Marsh 30 bachelor Painter of Orchard St father Henry Marsh Solicitor
Emma Parker 25 spinster of West End father John Parker Labourer
Witnesses Arthur Parker and Martha Barnes
All parties signed
I couldn't find the earlier William Leonard marriage, definitely not in Bosham but unfortunately the relevant Westbourne fiche was being used and there are no Westbourne transcripts. I did hang around a while but the fiche wasn't returned, I will have another look at some point.
Sorry I forgot about a photo of St Peters will also do that.
Jan ;)
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Well done Jan :)
Father: Henry Marsh - solicitor.
So here's one to investigate: a John Henry Marsh, son of John Marsh of Chichester entering into articles of clerkship (i.e. training as a solicitor) under James Bennett Freeland of Chichester, 31 May 1821.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NYLB-8N5
Update: probably not a runner - see next post
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Hmmm...well, there's a burial for John Henry Marsh aged 29, at All Saints Chichester, 9 Nov 1833 - may rule out that candidate.
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Hmmm...well, there's a burial for John Henry Marsh aged 29, at All Saints Chichester, 9 Nov 1833 - may rule out that candidate.
Shame
John Henry Marsh was baptised All Saints 8 April 1804 parents John and Sophia
So maybe he was Joseph's grandfather? particulary likely if Joseph was illegitimate? which may explain his non-appearance as Marsh on censuses although not his non-registration.
Jan ;)
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It looks from the 1833 death duty register (though faint and barely decipherable) as though John Henry Marsh died intestate, his administratrix being Mary Marsh (perhaps she was his widow?).
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Yes, it looks as though JHM had married a Mary:
Preston Chronicle, 5 November 1832
Marriages
On 24 ult., at St Michael's, Toxteth Park, John Henry Marsh, Esq, of Chichester, to Mary, eldest daughter of Wm Hurry, Esq., of Toxteth-park.
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A son, John Henry Pakenham Marsh, was baptised in 1834 after his father's death:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/J7RS-F2Q
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I now think the search could be getting ahead of itself and to coin a phrase, putting the cart before the horse (or perhaps the cat amongst the pigeons).
Putting social backgrounds to one side, a marriage of 30 year old Joseph Marsh bachelor - Painter, of Orchard St whose father Henry Marsh was a Chichester Solicitor needs to be matched by an 1853 birth or baptism for a Joseph Marsh in that locality, and there isn't one. Nor is there a supporting census entry in Josephs name. Solicitors at least should be aware that a child's birth had to be registered, and government documentation adhered to, so we therefore have to conclude that Joseph Marsh's birth was not officially recorded under the Marsh surname and that he did not have the Marsh surname in his early years.
So was Joseph just brought up by Henry Marsh Solicitor (Census entries to support?) Was Henry parent or grandparent?
Was Joseph an illegitimate son of another member of the family? (perhaps Charlotte was related to Henry the solicitor in some way)
Or was Joseph actually the illegitimate son of the solicitor who was making payments to his mother for her silence and Joseph's upkeep?
The focus now should be on the solicitor Henry Marsh of Chichester and his activities, until either he died or his reputed son Joseph married.
Roy G
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The focus now should be on the solicitor Henry Marsh of Chichester and his activities, until either he died or his reputed son Joseph married.
Agreed, absolutely - but who is this Henry? Having been through the Law Lists and Articles of Clerkship, the candidate I identified as worth following up was John Henry Marsh of Chichester, articled in Chichester in 1821 and in practice as an attorney (solicitor) in Chichester by the early 1830s (according to the Law List).
He is therefore the person I have followed up. He died in 1833 leaving a (possibly posthumous) son John Henry Pakenham Marsh, who led a colourful life.
I haven't managed to spot anyone else as an obvious candidate in the Law Lists up to the early 1880s when Joseph's marriage took place. In 1883 (Law List again) there was no solicitor in Chichester by the name of Henry Marsh (or indeed any Marsh), and the only Henry was Henry Newland.
So - help! Who is it you are looking at?
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My feeling is that Joseph could well be an illegitimate son of John Henry Pakenham Marsh. I've followed him on censuses and he moves around, living with his widowed mother an annuitant, although he does marry a Matilda, he isn't listed as having an occupation -so the solicitor bit could come from the grandfather. Now this could be totally off the wall and will need closer inspection but in 1851 16 year old Henry Marsh is living with his widowed mother and grandmother in Toxteth in the household is an unmarried lady's maid Susannah White 34 born Chichester. In 1853 there is a Henry White birth registered in Chichester. Susannah is still with the family in 1861 (now in Westbury on Trym) but is now a waitress. Her parents Richard and Charlotte are in Orchard St Chichester 51/61 and widowed Richard is still there in 1871. In 1861 they have a grandson Henry J White with them although he is said to be 3. Henry however is not with Richard in 1871. I cannot see any obvious death for a Henry White born c 1858 between 1861 and 71. I can't see a Henry White born Chichester 1853 in 1861 nor death for him.
I'm still looking for Henry White in 71/81
So fantasy or possibility ;D
Jan ;)
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I confess I am secretly hoping John Henry Pakenham Marsh is the mystery father, as there is some juicy stuff on him in the newspapers of the time!
An 1863 bankruptcy report (Hampshire Telegraph, 19 Dec 1863) shows that he used an alias of Charles Herbert Morley and ran a theatre business in (successively) Ipswich, London, Twickenham and Southsea. The business failed and he was confined to Winchester Gaol as a debtor on 15 September 1863 and adjudicated bankrupt.
Later (1883) he turns up before the courts again on fraud and forgery charges.
Anyway: as Roy says, we musn't get carried away ;)
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I did wonder where all the money went - he left £5 when he died in 1895!
Anyway: as Roy says, we musn't get carried away ;)
But it's fun :D
Anyway lateral thinking sometimes leads in the right direction. For my own interest I will check for a Henry White baptism (hoping of course that he will be the illegitmate son of Susannah). And will keep burrowing.
For Eddie your marriage details are on page 2 (before we got excited!)
Jan ;)
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I too had had a (half-hearted) look for what became of Susannah White & found her still with the Marsh family in 1861 & thought little more of it. Interesting that her parents lived in Orchard Street and acquired a mystery grandson.
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I'm going to poor cold water on the following as a possible.
.... In 1861 they have a grandson Henry J White with them although he is said to be 3.
This Henry JOHN White was born Chichester 1858 (FreeBMD)
Baptism Date Chichester 18-April 1858, Mother Julia WHITE of the Poor House. Baseborn (SFHG)
Sorry but age 3 is correct and it's not a badly transcribed 8
More cold water on In 1853 there is a Henry White birth registered in Chichester. FreeBMD
He's explained by SFHG baptisms too.
Baptism Date 13-Mar 1853, father George WHITE Mother Emily
Coach Maker of Little London
Roy 'Killjoy' G
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Oh Roy, how could you!
But you're right, and Richard & Charlotte White did have a daughter Julia...
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Dang >:( ;D
There is however still a Henry White born Chichester district 1853 who I can't find (but I see you've dealt with him too Roy!)
Jan ;)
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Sir Walter Scott once wrote: "Oh what a tangled web we weave, When first we practise to deceive!" and I believe that sumarises this entire search for the immediate ancestors of Joseph Henry Marsh, said to have been fathered by the solicitor John Henry Marsh in Chichester in 1853.
Joesph Henry Marsh, who certainly must have been a relative innocent party in this entire matter, inherited such an unusal and shall we say 'colourful' family background, in an effort to return to some sort of normality, he could only compound what was already a highly complex situation. Despite declarions made to the contrary by him and those that cared for him in his infancy, it was highly unlikely his father was a local solicitor called John Henry Marsh, Marsh did not seem to be the surname that he was given at birth, and it is a matter of conjecture whether Chichester was where he was born and brought up. We only hope the year of birth he gave is roughly correct otherwise even our own speculations about his family origins can be thrown out with the bathwater.
So where to now? Do we look at the rogueish activities of John Henry Pakenham Marsh in more detail in the hope a link emerges from the archives, or will this be one of those unfotunate family lines that just stops in mid air, and never progresses further back into the past?
Roy G
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As to next steps - I don't think the witnesses from the marriage certificate have been traced (at least not by me).
Arthur Parker is likely to be related to the bride - but who was Martha Barnes?
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The only definite thing we can say is Joseph Henry Marsh born c1853 cannot even have been an illegitimate son of John Henry Marsh solicitor of Chichester because said solicitor died in 1833. There is no other solicitor called Henry Marsh showing in Chichester that I can see, certainly none showing on censuses.
So as you say Roy where to now?
John Henry Pakenham Marsh would I think be worth further investigation - we do know he moved around and that he was in Portsmouth in the 1860's and Brighton in 1871 so it is not beyond the realms of possibility that he could have fathered a child who was born or brought up in Chichester or nearby c1853.
What we know about Joseph is only what is on his Marriage certificate when he appears age c 30 in 1883 and on censuses from then on. The witnesses don't seem obviously helpful as Arthur Parker is presumably a relative of Emma's. Martha Barnes would be worth further investigation as would checking Emma Parker and family in 1881 and checking the whole of Orchard St in 1881 in case there is a likely Joseph.
Jan ;)
Snap avm
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Emma Parker and family are in West End in 1881 and her father is a labourer so all is as it should be. The only Martha Barnes is an 18 yr old Servant to GP in North Pallant, so if she is the witness she is probably just a friend. Orchard St in 1881 houses no Joseph/Henrys of suitable age.
Jan ;)
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I've also done the "whole of Orchard Street in 1881" exercise & didn't spot anyone likely.
In case anyone else wants a go, I'll give the references:
Orchard Street, Chichester St Bartholomew starts at RG11/1128/5/1.
Orchard Street, Chichester St Paul starts at RG11/1128/119/32.
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Hi all, just caught up with all your hard work, thanks, it seems I have stirred up some interest in this mystery. I must admit that the marsh side of my family history has always been the most difficult to trace. As I said, I am relatively new to this and take my hat off to your obvious experience and enthusiasm in this subject. All I can do is hope you will persevere further and find some more clues.
One of the surprises I received while researching my family history two years ago was the discovery that I had 3 half sisters and two half brothers from my Mothers previous marriage that I new nothing about! She kept it a secret all her life, (she died in 1986 and as far as I know shared it with no one). So who knows what other skeletons there are?
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Well its been a while! After giving up on my ancestry for a while I've decided to have a fresh look and see if anything new has been unearthed. Its been over 4 years, but are you guys still out there? Do you fancy another go at finding the elusive Henry Marsh?
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Yes still here Eddie and having refreshed my memory I am having another look :D
Jan
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Hi Jan,
I hope you are keeping well and thanks for your kind offer to help.
I've been going over this string and like the look of the following theory-
Extracts-
John Henry Marsh was baptised All Saints 8 April 1804 parents John and Sophia
a John Henry Marsh, son of John Marsh of Chichester entering into articles of clerkship (i.e. training as a solicitor) under James Bennett Freeland of Chichester, 31 May 1821.
It looks from the 1833 death duty register (though faint and barely decipherable) as though John Henry Marsh died intestate, his administratrix being Mary Marsh (perhaps she was his widow?).
Preston Chronicle, 5 November 1832
On 24 ult., at St Michael's, Toxteth Park, John Henry Marsh, Esq, of Chichester, to Mary, eldest daughter of Wm Hurry, Esq., of Toxteth-park.
A son, John Henry Pakenham Marsh, was baptised in 1834 after his father's death:
Conclusion-
Could Joseph have been a second son to Mary and a new aquantance, (possibly Mr Pakenham?) although Mary would be getting on by 1853.
Could Joseph have been JHPM's son?
Maybe Joseph went by the name Joseph Pakenham in his early years? Or Joseph Hurry?
1883 Joseph returns to Chichester to marry Emma in St Peter the GT church which Emma was also christened in.
Regards Eddie
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An illegitimate son/son from a second marriage of Mary Marsh is worth exploring - although as you say her age may rule this out.
There are no suitable Joseph Hurry or Pakenham that I can see.
I would say a illegitimate son of John Henry Pakenham Marsh is certainly a possibility and worth looking into.
Meanwhile I have found a Joseph Marsh baptised 5 Nov 1854 Beauworth Hampshire son of William and Elizabeth. He appears in Beauworth with parents in 1861, is a farm servant in Beauworth in 1871. Interestingly he then appears in Westbourne, Sussex in 1881 - Westbourne is only a few miles from Chichester. I cannot find this Joseph after 1881 so he is worth considering as yours. However someone with more eagle eyes may well locate him and rule him out!
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Hi Eddie, I am new to this game and I would like to say I have the answers but not so. You seem to have followed the same research as myself. I am a direct descendent of Henry Marsh Born 1885 who lived in Chichester all his life except for being in the 1914 war. We knew Joe, his brother, well who also lived in Chichester. Both boys went to The Oliver Whitby school a charity school for bright poor boys. If you follow the male line directly you may be the grandson of Albert Marsh. I have his birth certificate which I found in my grandfathers belonging. I have a photograph of their father Joseph. I also have 2 original notes, as yet I cannot decipher them, they are signed by a Mary Marsh 1812. First question when was she born, which line did she belong to, for us to have possession of them, it must presumably be quite near. She was obviously educated, being able to read and write, unless somebody scribed for her. Sadly the name Mary was fairly popular. I hope to get these deciphered soon, it could be a clue even if it is a long shot. Having just read through all the exciting theories from everyone, I don't know whether I am thrilled or thinking is there a right solution ? I was suddenly excited by the name Mary being mentioned perhaps my little notes may reveal something!!! Hope you find this interesting. Regards Lancastrian girl
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Hello Lancastrian Girl
Welcome to Rootschat :D
Eddie hasn't been around since Nov last year but hopefully he will hear he has a reply and pop back
Jan
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Hi Lancastrian girl,
I see we are related, but not via Albert. There is another Brother, Edward Marsh who was my grand father. I have quite a detailed account of him and how he came to live in Birmingham.
I would love to see your info and those photos.
Regards,
Eddie Marsh.
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Hi Eddie what a lovely surprise, I always forget Edward I think he never featured in my memory, Joe and Grandad were together in Chi and of course I have Albert's birth certificate. Perhaps it was your grandfather and family who came to stay Mum said from up north, hardly in today's world! I will find some photographs you might like to see and the documents signed Mary Marsh 1812. I still think if we could find out about her and transpose the notes we may find some more answers. I had a long list of things to do today but have been trying unsuccessfully to read any 0f her text when I hold the paper it is quite would love to hear all about your Grandfather was he in the 1914 war, where did he go to school so many questions to ask, have you any old photo's? Have you been down to Chechester to see where the family lived? It is a lovely city and grew up there myself. I will send the little notes first . Thanks relative for replying!!. My friend who has been putting together my family tree and put the message on line has discovered that we are relatives on the Shawyer side (henry's wife Martha, sadly I never met her she died when I was 3months old
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Lancastrian girl
If you are having trouble reading the notes you can post on
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/handwriting-deciphering-recognition/
and rootschatters will come to your aid.
Also if you want to send a private message to Eddie, to exchange emails or whatever, you will need to post once more here and then click on the little message icon over on the left under Eddie's name etc.
Jan ;)