RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Hampshire & Isle of Wight => Topic started by: Paul Beard on Monday 06 May 13 13:07 BST (UK)
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Elsie May Holmes was a niece of my maternal grandfather. Her birth surname was Stoner and she was born in Lower Beeding, Sussex on 2nd March 1908. She died on the IOW in Oct/Nov/Dec quarter 1993, aged 85.
Her death record on the IOW Family History site shows that her maiden name, when marrying Holmes, was Mallan. Her death GRO is B54A Page 291. I am awaiting a copy of the death certificate. There is no trace of a marriage between Mallan (including derivations) and Holmes. Similarly there are no recorded marriages between Stoner and Mallan.
At the very least she was married twice. I am seeking any information that anyone may have as to next of kin, obituary reports, electoral registers etc in order to trace back through her marriages and identify any children she may have had.
Thank you for taking the time and trouble to read this message and thank you for any help you are able to give.
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Hmm. Could that be an error on the IOW site ???
Marriage to Reginald Holmes seems to have taken place in March 1927. Any other marriage would have to be prior to that and she was only 19/20 then
Sandra
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Possible that IF her mother was widowed then remarried, Elsie took her stepfathers name but the registration was filed with her true maiden name ?
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Hi - thanks for getting back to me. I have checked the Stoner - Holmes marriage and her date of birth is a few years out on her death record. I have the birth certificate for the Elsie I am looking for and the date of 2nd March 1908 tallies exactly with the IOW site report. I've also looked through the family tree of the marriage you have found and, although bride and spouse surnames match it is another family. I'll have a better idea when the death certificate arrives - hopefully I can see clearly what her name was at time of marriage, who she was the widow or surviving spouse of when she died.
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Have you looked at the 1911 entry for her?
per freebmd
Marriages December qtr 1931
Elsie M Emptage/Harold F York Thanet 2a 2708
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Hi - thanks for the link. I followed that marriage through a couple of days ago and am not sure. It may well be her, given that Emptage was the name of head of house where the family were living and she is shown on 1911 as daughter of Emptage. However, on birth certificate father is shown as Frederick John Stoner, who married her mother in 1903.
By 1931 her mother had married Francis Eggleton in 1917. On the marriage certificate she gave her name as Stoner nee Evans. She also described herself as a widow but Frederick John Stoner did not die until 1963. I've also tried using the name of her step father (Eggleton).
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Hi
Query = Maiden name on Death Certificate?
Re-reading 1911, the details you already have ................
The 2x Stoner children have been "clarified" (by the enumerator?) as "Housekeeper's ...."
There are a total (listed) of 3 "living" children "missing" (1x Stoner)
Emptage is a widower and she is married, not claiming to be widowed.
Note? FJS (married) seems to be with his parents (and someone who could be his other child Lillian)
You will have to look him up on 1911 in Beeding, because we are not allowed to publish the detail for you.
Ray
[ CaroleW there is an Elsie Mary Emptage born 1909 Thanet ....... ? ]
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Hi. Thanks for your reply. To clarify, I have the following documents in respect of Frances. Her marriage, as Frances Mary Evans, to Frederick John Stoner (19th Apr 1903 Lower Beeding GRO 2b 338) and shows her as spinster. Father shown as James Evans railway guard. Frances shown as aged 23.
Her marriage, as Frances Mary Stoner, nee Evans, to Francis Richard Eggleton (19th Aug 1917 Margate GRO 2a 2308) and shows her as widow. Father shown as James Evans (deceased) former railway guard. Frederick John Stoner died on 18th February 1963 in Shoreham. Evidence from his death certificate and headstone of grave. Checks with National Archives proved negative re any potential divorce between Frederick and Frances.
Lillian Frances Mary Stoner was born 17th Nov 1904 in Lower Beeding (GRO 2b 291). Parents Frances Mary Stoner nee Evans and Frederick John Stoner. 1911 Census shows her and her father living with his parents and siblings of his in Lower Beeding. His army enlistment forms (1915) confirm exact details of wife as per their marriage certificate. Whereabouts of his wife shown as unknown, with army shown as awaiting details of guardian (which were her grandparents - George Friend & Mary Ann Stoner - the parents of Frederick John Stoner), who lived in Sandygate Lane, Lower Beeding).
Birth certificate of Elsie May Stoner (GRO 2b 203) shows her born 2nd Mar 1908 at Church Farm, which was in Sandygate Lane, Lower Beeding. Birth certificate of Agnes Rose Stoner (GRO 2a Page 1024) shows her born 29th Dec 1910 at 15 Belmont Street, Ramsgate. Father shown as Frederick John Stoner. She died in 1911 (GRO 2a 1358). I have also traced a third birth, of a male in Thanet in 1913 and am awaiting the birth certificate. He died in Thanet in 1913.
1911 Census in Thanet shows Frances as housekeeper and her daughters as children of Joseph Emptage, which is contrary to the details on the birth certificates. There is no trace of Frances ever marrying Joseph. I believe that the person shown on the marriage certificates to Frederick John Stoner and Francis Richard Eggleton is one and the same. I have traced a death for Frances Mary Eggleton and am awaiting her death certificate. Also awaited is the 1993 death certificate for Elsie May Holmes (GRO B54A Entry 291). Death record gives identical date of birth as for Elsie May Stoner (3rd Mar 1908).
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Hi
"1911 Census in Thanet shows Frances as housekeeper and her daughters as children of Joseph Emptage, which is contrary to the details on the birth certificates."
1911 = as mentioned, the daughters have a note by the enumerator clarifying the status of the two children,
Are you viewing the actual page or the transcription?
Ray
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Hi - thanks for getting back to me. I now see the difference between the two, albeit I had looked at the original document and not really noticed what the pencil insertions actually said. I believe it is possible that the eldest daughter (Elsie) could be the daughter of Frederick John Stoner but remain uncertain about Agnes. I hope to be able to establish when Frances moved to the Ramsgate area but that is not going to be easy.
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I have come across your post which attracted my attention. The following may be of some assistance:
Elsie May Holmes nee Mallan was the daughter of Arthur James Mallan, who was posted to Malta in 1910( https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/28403/page/5589/data.pdf). Elsie May Mallan was married to Edward George Holmes in 1929 - http://website.lineone.net/~stephaniebidmead/navy0079.htm?showpage=true
Her passport when she was still a 'spinster': http://213.165.169.182/pp/2/1927/1927_MFA01_00926.pdf. She was born on 02.03.1909.
Her brothers must have stayed and married in Malta because there are descendants there.
Good luck
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Passport of Elsie May Holmes nee Mallan after she was married: http://213.165.169.182/pp/2/1930/1930_MFA01_05436.pdf.
Date of birth is always shown as 02/03/1909 and was born in Gosport, Hants.