RootsChat.Com
Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Denbighshire => Topic started by: alijet on Thursday 09 May 13 10:55 BST (UK)
-
Hi,
My great grandfather was born circa 1865 I think in Cerrigydrudion, Denbighshire, Wales. The 1901 census shows he lived at Pand of Sudum, Denbighshire, Wales. 1891 states Denbighshire. 1881 states Denbigh. 1871 Denbigh, Denbighshire.
Between 1871 and 1881 he moved from Denbigh to Liverpool and later married Mary Elizabeth Whiteley.
I can see from the census his father is John and mother is Mary. Where do I begin to start finding his Birth Certificate and hopefully baptism records
All help is gratefully received
Alison
-
Can you give the reference number to the Census entries you've found him please,he doesn't show up too readily.
Regards
William Russell Jones.
-
Hi,
Yes of course,
Is this the Piece , Folio and Page No.?
Thanks and regards
Alison
-
Yes thats the way to do it!
Regards
William Russell Jones.
-
Here's your starter for 10, WR:
1981 census ref is RG11/3668/66/33 - living Everton :D
Alison -
If he was born Cerrigydrudion, the Registration District would be Corwen:
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/DEN/RegDistricts/index.html#RegCorwen
Where does he say, he was born CyD?
The North Wales BMD has a number of John P Jones birth registrations 1864-1866
but none for Corwen
Gadget
-
Yes your right Gadget,there are a couple for the Ruthin District.
Regards
William Russell Jones.
-
and 1 for St Asaph (inc the town of Denbigh) in 1864.
-
I'm not finding the 1871 entry?
Regards
William Russell Jones.
-
I've not found it yet, either. The marriage to Mary in 1886 just has him as John - and we all have John Joneses we'd like to find :-\
-
Hi,
Sorry for delay in coming back to you, no internet this afternoon. Here goes:-
1871 Census Piece 5673 Folio 11 Page 14
1881 Census Piece 3668 Folio 66 Page 33
1891 Census Piece 2948 Folio 12 Page 17
1901 Census Piece 3444 Folio148 Page 32
I think he must of died between 1901 & 1911 as in 1911 I found Jesse and her mum in a home for women.
I have seen the BMD's and ruled them out as he always states Denbigh or Denbighshire on the census's. But thank you for that. It had crossed my mind that he as added the P to sound a bit more upmarket. But there are just too many John Jones overall and I'm getting really confused.
I saw the 1864 St Asaph but wasn't sure if this was the local registration district.
I really appreciate you all trying to help me with this.
Regards
Alison
-
Hello Again Alison
Have you tried to follow up John's siblings so that you might get mother's maiden name - difficult I know - but it might narrow down the search :-\
Gadget
-
There is a probable marriage of the parents- John Jones and Mary Roberts at St Mary Magdalene Cerrigydrudion in 1865,ref. CW28/1/96 at www.northwalesbmd.org.uk.
Regards
Roger
-
Yes I come back to the same parents, so I think I am probably on the right track. It doesn't help though with narrowing down his birth certificate or finding any baptism details. It was recommended yesterday that he would come under Corwen, however having re-looked at the BMD's they do not have any registrations for that area. The main registration district is St Asaph (hoping it's not that, as there are lots of John Davies).
:D
-
Thank you despair, this looks a strong possibility doesn't it. Certainly gives me the mothers maiden name. Great start for working further back and hopefully if I get his BC it will tie in.
:DAlison
-
ps Didn't know about this brilliant. Thank you
Alison
-
Hi Alison
My laptop charger and battery went a bit funny yesterday while I was doing some of the searches so I've only just caught up with this.
Yes I come back to the same parents, so I think I am probably on the right track. It doesn't help though with narrowing down his birth certificate or finding any baptism details. It was recommended yesterday that he would come under Corwen, however having re-looked at the BMD's they do not have any registrations for that area. The main registration district is St Asaph (hoping it's not that, as there are lots of John Davies).
:D
I assume that you mean Jones and not Davies ;D
Re the registration districts ~ the RD for Cerrigydrudion is definitely Corwen - I gave the ref to the Genuki listing. in my earlier posting. Also note the code in despair's ref is CW - standing for Corwen.
Registration District of Corwen
This Registration District was initially (1837) co-extensive with the Corwen poor law Union.
It was divided into two sub-districts :
No. 1 sub-district (Gwyddelwern) :
Comprised the Denbighshire parishes of Cerrigydrudion, Llanfihangel Glyn Myfyr and Llangwm ;
together with the Merionethshire parishes of Betws Gwerfyl Goch, Gwyddelwern, Llandrillo yn Edeirnion and Llangar.
The only registration (1864-1866) for John Jones in St Asaph RD was in 1864
Registration District of St. Asaph
This Registration District was initially (1837) co-extensive with the St. Asaph poor law Union.
It was divided into three sub-districts :
No. 1 sub-district (St. Asaph) :
There were no Denbighshire parishes in this sub-district.
It comprised the following Flintshire parishes :
St. Asaph, Rhuddlan, Meliden, Cwm, Bodfari, Tremeirchion, and Dyserth.
No. 2 sub-district (Abergele) :
Comprised the Denbighshire parishes of Abergele, Betws-yn-Rhos, Llanddulas, Llanfair Talhaearn and St. George.
No. 3 sub-district (Denbigh) :
Comprised the Denbighshire parishes of Denbigh, Henllan, Llannefydd and Llansannan.
There were quite a few in Ruthin:
Registration District of Ruthin
This Registration District was initially (1837) co-extensive with the Ruthin poor law Union.
It was divided into six sub-districts :
No. 1 sub-district (Llanarmon (yn Iāl)) :
Comprised the Denbighshire parishes of Llanarmon yn Iāl, Llandegla and Llanferres.
No. 2 sub-district (Ruthin) :
Comprised the Denbighshire parishes of Efenechtyd, Llanbedr Dyffryn Clwyd, Llanfwrog, Llanrhydd, Llanychan and Ruthin.
No. 3 sub-district (Llanelidan) :
Comprised the Denbighshire parishes of Derwen, Llanelidan and Llanfair Dyffryn Clwyd.
No. 4 sub-district (Gyffylliog) :
Comprised the Denbighshire parishes of Clocaenog, Gyffylliog and Nantglyn.
The Gyffylliog sub-district was abolished on 1 August 1902.
Clocaenog moved to the Llanelidan sub-district.
Gyffylliog moved to the Ruthin sub-district.
Nantglyn moved to the Llanrhaeadr sub-district.
No. 5 sub-district (Llanrhaeadr (yng Nghinmeirch)) :
Comprised the Denbighshire parishes of Llanrhaeadr yng Nghinmeirch and Llanynys.
No. 6 sub-district (Llandyrnog) :
Comprised the Denbighshire parishes of Llandyrnog, Llangwyfan and Llangynhafal; together with the township of Aberchwiler (or Aberwheeler), which was part of the ecclesiastical parish of Bodfari, in Flintshire (although Aberchwiler itself was in Denbighshire).
Gadget
-
I can find the marriage above and the baptism of the brother Thomas in 1867 in Denbigh,as per the 1871 census, on FindMyPast,but I still can't identify John' s baptism at the moment.
Regards
Roger
-
There is one John Peter Jones registration that might be a possible:
Sept q, 1867, Corwen, 11b 429
Others are all John Joneses and there are quite a few!
Gadget
-
I've been trying to find the place mentioned on the 1901. it's definitely Pandy but the second word could start with various letters - examples of S and L ont the snip but it looks like neither. I've done a quick postcode search in cerrigydrudion but none of the Pandys have anything like this .
Gadget
Added - is it Tudwen ???
-
The "nearest" I can think of is Pandy Tudur,but this is in the Llanrwst area.Maybe it is a house address rather than a town/village?
Regards
Roger
-
There are quite a few places listed on the map near Cerridydrudion that start with Pant or Pont.We have to remember the enumerator will have put down what he thought he heard!
Regards
William Russell Jones.
-
It could be Tudwr but not sure - I'm having great problems with loose wiring in the adapter on my laptop so it's not charging/connecting all the time. It might be worth going through the Cerrigydrudion censuses - 1861-71-81 to see if there is an address that might coincide. I started doing it but, until I get a new adapter, I can't spend much time online.
Gadget
-
Hi again
On a very slow desk top but I can confirm that the 1865 marriage is correct. Full details available through FindMyPast on this link:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/KCPH-Q5Z
The date of the marriage (December 30) means that it is likely that John P was born in 1866 and not 1865 - unless he was born before the marriage.
This is Mary in 1851:
HO107/2509/7/6
Gadget
-
For Cerrigydrudion baptisms(but not marriages and burials) the FindMyPast records appear to stop at 1846 which coincides with the Clwyd FHS publications:-
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/DEN/Cerrigydrudion/
Perhaps the record office at Ruthin is the only option?
Regards
Roger
-
They might not stop in 1846 - many of the FindMyPast Welsh parish records are a wee bit muddled - I've found quite a few that have been mis-indexed. There's a thread about it on the Merionethshire board but it applies to other counties as well. Also, given that John P seems not to use his P initial until the 1901 census, he might well not have been baptised as anything other than John ::)
However, from the census ref that I gave, we know that Mary Roberts parents are David Roberts and Margaret, which will take Alison back another generation. It might be worth doing the same with John Jones, plasterer.
Gadget
-
There's an interesting marriage in Cerrigydrudion in 1825
David Roberts and Margaret Wynne
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/KCP4-1Q5
The children on the 1851 were all born Cerrigydrudion
Gadget
-
And a strong possible for Margaret and her older children in 1841:
HO107/ 1402/1/48/4
They're living at Pant y Neadd, Cerrigydrudion
The Jane Roberts who appears on both the 1841 and 1851 was bapt Cerrigydrudion on 9 July 1837, d/o David and Margaret.
Gadget
-
Wow I'm amazed with all the help. Thank you. I'm going to go back to it again now and absorb the information. I have Johns wedding cert, but good to have additional confirmation. Hope you don't mind may need to come back with additional questions.
Regards
Alison
-
Just been looking at a map. Do you think Pentre-llyn-Cymer could pass for Pandy Sudam? Bit of a long straw but can't see anything else remotely similar. Thoughts appreciated
-
Hi,
Probably a really stupid question, but how can I pull up a census on Ancestry to just look at addresses? Can this be done?
:-[ Alison
-
Gadget,
Hope you get this, I am a member of Ancestry, but cannot get Mary Roberts up on the 1851 census. can I be cheeky and ask when your computer issues resolved will you download me a copy please.
Also haven't got Mary and John's MC getting myself confused it is John P's MC that I have
-
Gadget gave you the piece number then the folio then the page.She is transcribed though on Ancestry as Marry!
Regards
William Russell Jones.
-
Hello Alison
Apart for my computer probs, I'm travelling for the next couple of days but if you can't get them up with the ref that I gave, do send me a PM with your e-mail and I'll send things to you on Monday/Tuesday.
Gadget
-
Thank you Gadget, but with WRJ's help got there in the end. I feel quite useless with the Welsh side of my Ancestry, will get there in the end though!!!
;D Alison