RootsChat.Com
Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Derry (Londonderry) => Topic started by: Belfast Gail on Saturday 11 May 13 12:50 BST (UK)
-
Edward Hay (my great x2 grandfather) has me completely defeated!
He was born (I believe circa 1808, and died 5 May 1890, in Coleraine.
He married Margaret Taylor on 8 April 1831, in New Row Presbyterian Church, Coleraine, and they produced 8 children. At the time of his marriage, he was recorded as a policeman but, by 1860s, he appears as a coachbuilder in Coleraine. In his will he refers to his estate at Flowerfield in Portstewart, so he had very strong ties to the area throughout his life.
The church marriage record does not mention his father's name so I have no idea now how to delve further back into the family. We believe the family originally came over Oban in Scotland but when, we have no idea.
I would be so grateful for any help on how now to proceed.
-
Welcome to Rootschat :)
Edward Hay purchased Coleraine Coach Factory in 1861 and had six sons & several daughters. I have some information on his descendants but it will be difficult to trace the family back further. There is a family headstone in Coleraine Cemetery but it most likely starts with Edward & his wife Margaret.
Edward's Will mentions a brother William Thomas Hay- have you tried searching for/contacting that branch ofthe family to see if they have more details?
Here's a bit about the history of Flowerfield House, Portstewart- Edward Hay not listed-
http://www.flowerfield.org/show.php?id=1
-
:) How wonderful to hear from you - thank you for replying.
I have re-examined Edward's will and you are absolutely correct - there is mention of a brother and a nephew, both of which I completely missed before. That does, indeed open up new avenues to research. Thank you so much.
Re Flowerfield - the same will mentions his estate and mansion there, and my understanding is that he bought the property as an investment. The family never actually lived there.
And thank you, we are aware of the headstone - I have photos of it.
I am very grateful for your post. My mother is approaching 86 and, while in relatively good health and very well-informed, is still hungry for more information.
-
Would be worth checking the Griffith's Valuation notebooks to look at ownership/tenants of Flowerfield- see www.proni.gov.uk
Do you have all the information you want on Edward Hay's descendants? I have quite a few bits from various records but don't want to duplicate what you've already found.
Will have a look later for brother and nephew. The Will was spread over 6 pages so I didn't read through it all but might be worth checking with fine-toothed comb.
-
While I feel I've gathered a fair amount of info on my grandfather Edward James (Jimmy) Hay circa 1889-1933, and his cousin Edward Norman Hay 1889-1943, and their lines, I have very little knowledge of any of the other Hays, other than that gleaned from PRONI's wills calendar.
Do you know how Edward Hay came to buy the Coleraine Coach Factory? I couldn't figure out how a policeman could have afforded to buy into that business or to amass the myriad properties referred to in his will?
My mother has some table silver with a Hay coat of arms on it and we believe Portstewart Strand used to form part of the Hay estate but how this is all joined up, we can't quite figure out.
While I am very grateful for any information you can share, I don't want to exhaust your goodwill! If you could even direct me to where the information is held, I am happy to look it up for myself. :)
Have you any knowledge of Margaret Ann Taylor's family also?
Very many thanks, again
Gail
-
Will have a look through some files and see what I can find that might be new to you.
-
Here's something on the brother and nephew to get you started working back.
If you search for Edward Hay in the 1891 England census (free access below) you can see his whole family living in Swindon, his father William T is an Inland Revenue Officer born in Ireland circa 1851 and his mother's name is Clara. Various siblings are listed, including a John B Hay born circa 1880 in Ireland.
http://www.freecen.org.uk/cgi/search.pl
Familysearch "Ireland Births and Baptisms, 1620-1881" has a record for son John B Hay, revealing mother as Clara Emily Chandler:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FGJ4-P2S
Edited to add: FreeBMD shows the marriage of William Thomas Hay to Clara Emily Chandler in 1874 at Northhampton.
Edited to add: I've just realised that this William Thomas Hay would have been born some 40 years after his supposed coachmaker brother Edward (if your 1808 birth date is correct), which seems very unlikely indeed - what does anyone else think?
-
The London Gazette has an 1891 reference to Edward William Carter Hay being taken on as a boy copyist:
http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/26168/pages/2931/page.pdf
Here's the family apparently back in Ireland in 1901:
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Londonderry/Coleraine/Captain_Street_Upper/1517751/
And 1911:
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Londonderry/Coleraine/Captain_Street__Upper/588757/
Is this a wild goose chase (ie. have I got the wrong family) or was the will loose in it's description "nephew", ie. did it really mean grand nephew (William Thomas being the actual nephew)? Edited to add: Or another possibility being that Edward (c.1808) and William Thomas (c. 1850) are half brothers?
-
The PRONI willls index shows the following:
Hay William Thomas of Captain Street Coleraine county Londonderry retired inland revenue officer died 27 August 1931 Administration W/A Londonderry 14 October to Margaret Hay spinster. Effects £510 5s. 1d.
The Captain Street address matches the 1901 / 1911 census records, it looks like wife Clara may have already died.
Notwithstanding the age reconciliation issue between 1808 Edward and c.1850 William Thomas, I suppose one way back on this one is to see if there is a father's name / occupation either in the 1874 Northampton marriage record to Clara or in the marriage record to Margaret mentioned in the wills index entry...
-
William Thomas Hay of Captain St. Upper (haven't been there since last night) who died in 1931 was the son of Edward Hay, coachbuilder- probably named after Edward's brother. Edward had at least 9 children.
In the same list as EWC Hay in the Gazette there's his brother, Francis Robert Hay.
Am still compiling family notes from my files and have uncovered the history of the coachbuilding business (and probably how Edward Hay became involved).
-
William Thomas Hay of Captain St. Upper (haven't been there since last night) who died in 1931 was the son of Edward Hay, coachbuilder- probably named after Edward's brother. Edward had at least 9 children.
In the same list as EWC Hay in the Gazette there's his brother, Francis Robert Hay.
Am still compiling family notes from my files and have uncovered the history of the coachbuilding business (and probably how Edward Hay became involved).
Ahhh, best I keep out for now...
:)
-
No, I'm sure all help is appreciated. Gailmack is mainly interested in Edward Hay and earlier records which are probably not online which is why I'm trolling through my Coleraine files (which are not indexed).
-
Sorry, I was aiming to get the William Thomas route back to Edward and Margaret.
I'll definitely bow out now but if, as you say, William Thomas Hay is a son of Edward rather than a brother (which would have made Edward William Carter Hay Edward grandson rather than nephew as stated in the will), then it changes the story. Waiting in anticipation...
-
Folks
I am truly delighted and grateful for your input.
I believe (having gone back and read his will more carefully) Edward Snr had a brother Wm Thos (he refers in it to his nephew EWC Hay, 'son of Wm Thos'), and also further on, to a son named Wm Thos.
And I'm fairly confident of Edward Snr's DOB - the cemeteries office in Coleraine kindly sent me burial details and he died 5 May 1890, aged 82, according to their records. That places his birth circa 1808.
I'm wondering if I chased details for Edward's brother, William Thomas, might a birth record or marriage cert reveal their father's name?
I really am so pleased - the trail had gone completely dead and now I'm hopeful of discovering even a little more. Thank you.
Gail
-
Did lots of searching for Edward's brother William Thomas (and his son) without any luck. Several promising leads later turned out to be wrong but will keep looking.
Starting with the family-
Edward “Ned” Hay (c1808-1890) m.(1831) Margaret Ann Taylor. At least 9 children:
1. Edward Hay (c1833-1886).
2. James Hay (c1839-1915) m.(1886) Adelaide Finlay Elder (c1850-1918). Four children: Mary Adelaide (1888-1893), Edward James (1888 Coleraine-1933), Hugh Bellas (1889-1895), Margaret Adelaide (1894).
3. Grace Taylor Hay (c1840-1921).
4. Jane Hay (c1844-1926).
5. Joseph Hay (c1847-1918) m.(1884) Janet Robb (1864-1891). Two sons: Francis Edward Cecil (d.1885), Edward Norman (1889-1943).
6. Margaret Ann Hay (c1851) m.(1881) Joseph Wray.
7. Francis Hay.
8. Robert Alexander Hay (c1858-1886).
9. William Thomas Hay (c1845-1931) m.(c1874) Clara Emily Chandler (c1858). Nine children: Edward William C. (c1876), Francis Robert (1877), John Bertram (1879), Margaret (c1881-aft.1958), Eveleen Clara (1885-1956), Adelaide Louise (1888), Eustace O’Neill (1892), and 2 children (died before 1911).
The above family tree is only a brief outline but let me know if you want full dates, sources, etc.
-
Wonder if Edward Hay became involved in coachbuilding through his wife's connection?
Coleraine in Modern Times- Chapter 4 Transport and Communications “An 1839 directory gives the coach and jaunting car makers in Coleraine as William Hartford (Stone Row), Moses McCaughey (Bridge Street) and Francis Saurin (Long Commons). William Hartford spent £400 in building premises in Lower Stone Row, and by steady industry built up a large business employing many workmen,. He died in 1845 at the early age of 31 and his business was taken over by Moses McCaughey and Thomas Taylor (who became insolvent), then by Thoms, then by Hendersons and later by John McVicar. In 1866 the trustees of James Barr, coach builder, were forced to sell off the business.
…Following their insolvency in 1850, McCaughey and Taylor set up later that year as the Northern Coach factory at 8 New Row. Thomas Taylor set up on his own account in New Row in 1857, but what I take to be the same business was purchased by Edward Hay in 1861.
Still have a few more files to search through but unfortunately the information is not indexed or chronological.
-
I am absolutely amazed at the depth of information and the speed with which you have produced it all. Simply astonishing! Most of the sibling information (with the exception of Wm Thos) is not new to me but could I ask you how you know Edward Hay Snr was nicknamed 'Ned'? I haven't seen that before.
I had wondered myself if Margaret's family was involved but her father was James Taylor, not Thomas, so it would be interesting to see if a family connection did exist.
I have to say, though, I feel rather guilty at the amount of work you are doing on my behalf. Guilty, but so grateful!
Gail
-
Have a note here re: 'Ned' but will have to look for it. Was by Adelaide Avenue, Coleraine this afternoon and it was hailing (not nice weather for May).
A bit on the Taylors-
Coleraine Chronicle, 29 Sept.1860: At New Row, Coleraine, on the 28th inst., Eliza, wife of Mr. Thomas Taylor, coach builder, aged 38 years.
Coleraine Chronicle, 22 Dec.1860: At Coleraine, on the 14th inst., Mr. Thomas Taylor, coach builder, aged 44 years.
From the above it seems possible that Thomas Taylor could be a brother of Margaret's but no proof yet. Both deaths do explain why Edward Hay purchased the business in 1861.
-
This is obviously a substantial piece of work, Aghadowey, and I'm concerned about involving you to such an extent.
Would you be able to even point me in the direction of some of this information to look up for myself?
Many, many thanks
Gail
-
Hello again, Aghadowey
I'm back on the trail now summer's over. Would you be able to suggest where I might start looking again for Edward (Ned). I've heard good reports about the Coleraine Chronicle historical room - would you recommend starting there, perhaps?
Many thanks
Gail
-
Hello again!
The Chronicle does not keep back copies for reference. The old issues (along with a few other local papers) are on microfilm now at Coleraine Library (formerly part of the Irish Room collection up at County Hall). There is an index to the Chronicle (from its start in 1844 until 1869) for births, deaths and marriages but otherwise it's a matter of searching through the appropriate roll or rolls.
The microfilm and readers are upstairs (ask at main desk for access) and best to book a reader ahead of time (you can reserve for an hour still I think and then continue if a machine is free). Staff are very helpful.
They also have microfilmed copies of church records (Co. Derry and Co. Antrim) which are duplicates of ones in PRONI- some better quality that others. If there are any particular churches/dates post here as I have a copy of their list with their reference numbers. You are not allowed to photocopy the church records but can take notes from them.
-
That's a great help, Aghadowey - thank you.
Looks like a day out in Coleraine town for me!
Gail
-
Forgot to mention parking- there isn't any! Free parking that is- all now pay and display (except for 1 or maybe 2 near library).
Waterside- Castle Lane, behind Clothworkers' Building- plenty of spaces usually very empty, footbridge from Waterside across Bann comes out by Dunnes, just walk past Dunnes and use crossing light to back of library. New traffic light system makes it easier to get out and head in any direction. Main entrance has steep set of steps, handicapped entrance via children's section on ground floor (near crossing light).
Small car park next to Methodist Church (across from Dunnes, library on other side of church)- more expensive, sometimes full and one-way traffic system mean you end up driving all around Coleraine to get out.
Old Dunnes car park (off Circular Road)- often full and not well laid out for getting in and out of spaces, have to follow one-way system through town to get in and out.
Might even nip in to say 'hello' if I know when you'll be there ;)
-
I would love that, Aghadowey.
I need to get a day set aside and when I do, I'll be in touch.
Thank you for the wonderful directions!
Gail
-
Not sure what happened to my last post but there seems to be a bit missing :-\
Should read-
Forgot to mention parking- there isn't any! Free parking that is- all now pay and display (except for 1 or maybe 2 handicapped spaces near library).
Send me a PM when you get a visit arranged and I'll be in touch :)
-
As a boy we used to queue in the car to go on to portstewart strand and the receipt used to read “the hay estate”
My dad explained that the estate owned a few yards of roadway but not the beach itself
The area between high and low tide is always crown property so that makes sense
I seem to remember some connection between the family and jimmy Kennedy the famous song writer but I could easily be mistaken about that
-
How lovely to hear from you, Harry.
This is the same Hay family. I attach a ticket showing 'Hay Estate' - I found it in an old box of stuff in the attic!
My understanding is that when Edward Hay died in 1889, he intended access to the beach would be free to the people of Portstewart in perpetuity, but a branch of the family elected to levy a charge against his wishes. I'm not sure how/when the charge stopped but this ticket dates back to the 1960s or 1970s, so it was still in effect as late as that.
One of Edward's grandsons, my grandfather, Edward James - 'Jimmy', married Margretta Kennedy, daughter of James Kennedy. He was a master builder in Coleraine, not a composer. Jimmy's cousin, Edward Norman Hay, was a composer, however, of some note.
Thanks for getting in touch.
Gail
-
Sorry - couldn't attach the image as the file exceeds 500kb