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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Derry (Londonderry) => Topic started by: Belfast Gail on Thursday 16 May 13 12:10 BST (UK)

Title: Adelaide Finlay Elder (c1850-1913) Coleraine
Post by: Belfast Gail on Thursday 16 May 13 12:10 BST (UK)
Adelaide Finlay Elder was my great grandmother.  She was born circa 1850 and died 12 May 1913.
She married James Hay 20 Sept 1886 in Portstewart Presbyterian Church, Ballyrashane, and they produced 4 children, 3 of whom survived.  Their son, Edward James Hay, was my maternal grandfather.
The parish record shows Adelaide's father to be Thomas Elder, a farmer.
Would anyone be able to share any information on Thomas Elder - sadly that's as much info as I have.
Thank you in advance.
Gail
Title: Re: Adelaide Finlay Elder (c1850-1913) Coleraine
Post by: aghadowey on Thursday 16 May 13 12:49 BST (UK)
Me again  :)

According to 1911 census there were 4 children but only 2 alive in 1911. The ones I have are:
Mary Adelaide (Jan/Mar.1888 Coleraine-Oct./Dec.1893 Coleraine)
Edward James (Oct./Dec.1888 Coleraine)
Hugh Bellas (Oct./Dec.1889 Coleraine-Oct./Dec.1895 Coleraine)
Margaret Adelaide (July/Sept.1894 Coleraine)

The name of the 3rd child makes sense-
"Hugh Bellas [Liswatty] never married, and an unmarried sister Jane lived with him. Hugh Bellas brought up two neices, Margaret who married O'Neill, and Adelaide who married Hay. Adelaide's dowry from her uncle included a piece of ground in Coleraine on which houses were afterwards built and called Adealide Avenue after her."
Title: Re: Adelaide Finlay Elder (c1850-1913) Coleraine
Post by: aghadowey on Thursday 16 May 13 13:26 BST (UK)
"The Will (with one Codicil) of Hugh Bellis late of The Crescent Portstewart County Londonderry Gentleman who died 20 December 1886 at same place was proved at Londonderry by Joseph Cuthbert and Robert Alexander Taylor both of Coleraine Merchants and Henry O'Neill of Portstewart Farmer all in said County the Executors." Effects £3,698 14s. 2d.
Will (written 1881) mentions lots of relatives, including- "nephew Matthew Elder,"niece Margaret Elder now Mrs. O'Neill," "niece Adelaide Finlay Elder."
Title: Re: Adelaide Finlay Elder (c1850-1913) Coleraine
Post by: Belfast Gail on Thursday 16 May 13 14:20 BST (UK)
Aghadowey, I salute you!
If I wasn't already, I am seriously in your debt.

This is fantastic information.  I am working my way through Huh Bellis (Bellas)'s will and trying to  make sense of all those nephews & nieces.  As is often the case, new information raises more questions than it answers, ie why were Jane & Adelaide raised by a maiden aunt and a benevolent uncle - where were their parents?  Can we assume they were sisters?

That's my new project!  The family believes Adelaide Finlay Elder to be descended from James 'Gunner' Elder of Finvoy.  There was a painted miniature of him donated to the Presbyterian Church from the O'Neill home on Prospect Road in Portstewart, and I have what is thought to be his shoe buckle since made into a broach.  It would be great to figure out how Gunner & Adelaide were related! 

And you have shed some light on how the Hay & O'Neill families were connected - until now, that was a mystery.

You have really helped me - I am in awe of your expertise.
Thank you so, so much.
Gail
Title: Re: Adelaide Finlay Elder (c1850-1913) Coleraine
Post by: aghadowey on Thursday 16 May 13 17:45 BST (UK)
The Bellas and Williamson families are sort of connected to me so I do have some information on them but you do need to be careful with the relationships mentioned- Mrs. Sarah Jane Williamson and her sister Elizabeth Caskie are listed as nieces to Hugh Bellas (correct) but the other Williamsons listed as 'niece' and 'nephew' are Sarah Jane's children (thus, Hugh Bellas is their great-uncle).

I did see written somewhere that Adelaide Finlay Elder was the daughter of Rev. Matthew Elder of Kilraghts but think that can't be correct. As far as I know, Adelaide and Margaret were sisters whose parents died when they were young and Uncle Hugh and Aunt Jane took care of them.
Title: Re: Adelaide Finlay Elder (c1850-1913) Coleraine
Post by: Belfast Gail on Saturday 18 May 13 15:08 BST (UK)
Hi Aghadowey
I have a copy of the parish record of the marriage between James & Adelaide, dated Sept 1886.  Adelaide's father is named as Thomas Elder, farmer.  The 2 witnesses are Francis Hay & Margaret O'Neill.  I know now (after your enormous help) Margaret O'Neill's relationship to Adelaide.
Have you any idea if their parents died of early, natural causes or was there an awful accident?
As always, I am fascinated & indebted.  :D
Gail
Title: Re: Adelaide Finlay Elder (c1850-1913) Coleraine
Post by: aghadowey on Saturday 18 May 13 21:42 BST (UK)
Just started searching for your Thomas Elder and found this marriage (only a possibility for now)-
7 Aug.1846 First Presbyterian Church Kilraghts- Thomas G. Elder & Margaret White (page 255 in civil register)
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FGFG-28Q

Might connect to this John Elder (born c1822), son of Thomas Elder & Jane Graeme-
http://www.ballymoneyancestry.com/VolForumRss.aspx?topic_id=135&print=1


Which leads onto this interesting obituary... "Elder.-On the 7th inst, at Melbourne, Thomas Graham Elder, youngest son of the late Rev. Mathew Elder, Kilraughts, and formerly of Pinehill House, Co. Antrim, Ireland. Home papers please copy."
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/5822345

Still speculative but will post further results...
Title: Re: Adelaide Finlay Elder (c1850-1913) Coleraine
Post by: aghadowey on Saturday 18 May 13 21:57 BST (UK)
Rev. Matthew Elder (Kilraughts) born 1767 Garvagh, Co. Derry. Brother Henry Elder(Faughanvale) and half-brother James Elder (Finvoy- known as 'Gun of the Gospel'). Another brother was Robert (died 1842 age 69).

Rev. James Elder (Finvoy) born 25 Dec.1757 Bellury near Garvagh and died 4 Nov.1843. Wife Jane died 21 Feb.1829 age 70. Three children- James, Jane & Maria who died in infancy.

Coleraine Chronicle, 15 Aug.1846: On the 7th inst., in the Presbyterian Church of Kilraughts, by the Rev. John Alexander, of Ballyrashane, Thomas G. Elder, Esq., of Pine Hill, in the parish of Kilraughts, to Margaret, youngest daughter of the late George White, Esq., of Cave Hill, in the parish of Carnmoney.

Coleraine Chronicle, 2 Oct.1852: At Pinehill, on the 24th ult., the wife of Mr. Thomas Elder, of Pinehill, of a son.
Title: Re: Adelaide Finlay Elder (c1850-1913) Coleraine
Post by: aghadowey on Saturday 18 May 13 23:27 BST (UK)
Right, think I may have gotten the Elder connection finally sorted out - with help from family  :) So, before you start reading you might want to grab a cup of tea...

Rev. Matthew Elder (1767 Bellury?-23 July 1827) married 1804 Mary Ann Graham from Dunboe (her death date of 13 May 1845 not confirmed). They lived at Pinehill and I've some children listed below but there could have been others.
1) Jane Elder (died 9 May 1869 The Crescent, Portstewart), eldest daughter, m.(30 June 1842) Hugh Bellas of Liswatty- this would be the couple that raised Margaret & Adelaide.
2) Isabella Elder, 2nd daughter, m.(26 Mar.1845) Patrick McVicker (d.1880) of Dunbought, Dunaghy, Antrim. Had one daughter Jane Maria McVicker who married John Torrens Calwell (d.1923?) & had 2 daughters.
3) Thomas Graham Elder, Pinehill, m.(7 Aug.1846) Margaret White. See below
4) Matthew Elder (c1822-30 May 1839)- died of consumption supposed to be contracted by his studies at Belfast Academical Institution.

Belfast Newsletter, 22 Nov.1852 has an Advertisement to Creditors, Legatees, and Encumbrancers... In the matter of Patrick M'Vickar & Isabella M'Vickar petitioners; Thomas Graham Elder respondent... Apparently a dispute about settlement of Mary Ann Elder's property (widow of Rev. Matthew Elder).
Title: Re: Adelaide Finlay Elder (c1850-1913) Coleraine
Post by: aghadowey on Saturday 18 May 13 23:37 BST (UK)
Now, I think that...

Thomas Graham Elder (died 1869 Melbourne, Australia) married (1846) Margaret White. Possibly 3 children-
1) Margaret Elder (c1848) married Henry O'Neill. Portstewart & had family (including a daughter Jane Bellis O'Neill)
2) Adelaide Finlay Elder (c1850) m.(1886) James Hay, Coleraine.
3) son (1852).

It may be that Margaret (White) Elder died shortly after the birth of the son & that he also died although I haven't found deaths for either yet. Would be interesting to know when Thomas Graham Elder went to Australia (after 1852 going by the legal notice) but likely the 2 daughters were left in care of Aunt Jane Bellis (if Thomas was in a dispute with sister Isabella McVicker that may be why it was Jane).

(The Elder homestead in Bellury is still standing although has been vacant for a number of years.)
Title: Re: Adelaide Finlay Elder (c1850-1913) Coleraine
Post by: aghadowey on Sunday 19 May 13 00:02 BST (UK)
This might be where Adelaide got Finlay as a middle name- "Mr Love's successor, the Rev. Samuel Finlay, was the tenant of a farm at Pinehill and he played a leading part, with many of his congregation, in the Tenant Right Campaign which eventually enabled tenant farmers to become the owners of their farms. Greatly beloved, nearly every family had a son named Samuel Finlay. When Mr. Finlay died in 1887 he left his farm to the congregation as a manse. It was used as such for a short time but was later purchased by Kilraughts Reformed Presbyterian Church, becoming the manse of that congregation."
http://www.firstkilraughts.org.uk/history.html

Added- Rev. Finlay installed in Kilraughts 1850 around the time Adelaide was born. Tried to check Valuation Revision books on PRONI site but not working at the moment.
Title: Re: Adelaide Finlay Elder (c1850-1913) Coleraine
Post by: Belfast Gail on Sunday 19 May 13 15:32 BST (UK)
Thanks you, Aghadowey - that's absolutely terrific!   :D
I've just checked PRONI's list of church records and I'm in luck - 1st Kilraughts Presbyterian records are on film there for 1846 marriages, so I'm very hopeful I'll find an image and be able to confirm this connection next time I'm there.
BTW if there's ever anything I can look up for you there, please just let me know.  I go quite regularly and I would very much like to return the favour - you have been so very generous with your time and information.
Thanks again.
Gail
Title: Re: Adelaide Finlay Elder (c1850-1913) Coleraine
Post by: aghadowey on Sunday 19 May 13 16:45 BST (UK)
Should the 1846 marriage fit then I've LOTS on the Elder family (too much to post here). If you get this direction and want to see the Elder place let me know - I've got keys to part of the property and can get the keys for the house  :) If I can remember to bring the camera with me, and it's not pouring rain, will see if I can get some photos soon.
Title: Re: Adelaide Finlay Elder (c1850-1913) Coleraine
Post by: Belfast Gail on Monday 20 May 13 16:30 BST (UK)
I needed something a lot stronger than a cup of tea after reading all that family drama!!
What you have unravelled beggars belief, and I don't know where to begin to thank you.
My mother will be completely fascinated and that gives me great pleasure, so I thank you on her behalf too.
I have a little information on James and Thomas Elder's people:
John (1) Elder, b 1660 Midlothian
His son, John (2) Elder born 1690, Co Antrim
His 2 sons: John (3) Elder born 1720 in Ballymoney & Henry Elder born 1735 (Henry had a son, Matthew in 1775, in Londonderry)
John (3) Elder had 4 children: ?daughter married ?Bond; John W (4) Elder born 1752; James Elder ('Gunner') born Dec 1757 & Thomas Elder born 1797 in Ballymoney.
This information was compiled by an Elder clan in America so I'm afraid I cannot verify authenticity - where information is duplicated on their site, though, it does match the info you've just sent.
I am so happy I thought to post a message on RootsChat - what a lucky break!
Many, many thanks.  You should probably go and lie down in a darkened room now....
Gail
I have to ask:  could we be distantly related?
Title: Re: Adelaide Finlay Elder (c1850-1913) Coleraine
Post by: aghadowey on Monday 20 May 13 17:03 BST (UK)
Have lots more on Elders (probably not as far back as 1660 Scotland) but will take a little while to get it typed out in a logical format. Almost of all it wouldn't be available online so if you'd like more information do let me know.
Glad that you mother will also enjoy reading through the information posted so far. We aren't related but will send a PM later explaining the connections to the Williamsons & Ballas family and with the Elder's farm at Bellury.
Title: Re: Adelaide Finlay Elder (c1850-1913) Coleraine
Post by: Belfast Gail on Monday 20 May 13 17:42 BST (UK)
I won't trouble you with amassing extraneous Elder family history, Aghadowey - I'm honestly thrilled with what you have sent already.  My hope was to gather this info while Mum was still around to enjoy it, and determining the connection between Adelaide F Elder and 'Gunner' Elder for her was one of my goals.
Thanks to you, I'm there.
I couldn't be more grateful.   :)
Gail
Title: Re: Adelaide Finlay Elder (c1850-1913) Coleraine
Post by: Belfast Gail on Monday 27 May 13 22:01 BST (UK)
Me again, Aghadowey!
At risk of making a complete nuisance of myself, could I try and clear up something with you, please?

I have unearthed a photocopied Fasti page (from PRONI) which details Rev Matthew & Rev Henry Elder as brothers, and sons of Matthew Elder, a farmer near Garvagh.  This must be the Rev Matthew you refer to as the dates match: 1767-1827.
Rev James Elder, however, is quoted in this same document as the 1st son of John Elder, farmer, Ballury, Garvagh.  Again, I know it's the same James Elder because the dates match.
Which means this Matthew Elder and this Rev James "Gunner" Elder couldn't have been half-brothers.
So, I'm wondering if I've got the right Matthew Elder for Adelaide's grandfather?
Am I missing something really obvious and being an idiot? (not beyond the realms of possibility, I have to admit!)
Would your sources be able to shed any more light?
As always, I am so grateful for your help.
Gail
 

Title: Re: Adelaide Finlay Elder (c1850-1913) Coleraine
Post by: aghadowey on Monday 27 May 13 23:59 BST (UK)
Very interesting- will go back through my Elder notes (am still typing them all out) and let you know what I find (or don't find).
Title: Re: Adelaide Finlay Elder (c1850-1913) Coleraine
Post by: ann elder on Friday 26 July 13 01:32 BST (UK)
ev. Matthew Elder (Kilraughts) born 1767 Garvagh, Co. Derry. Brother Henry Elder(Faughanvale) and half-brother James Elder (Finvoy- known as 'Gun of the Gospel'). Another brother was Robert (died 1842 age 69). do u know if robert had any children

Rev. James Elder (Finvoy) born 25 Dec.1757 Bellury near Garvagh and died 4 Nov.1843. Wife Jane died 21 Feb.1829 age 70. Three children- James, Jane & Maria who died in infancy.

Coleraine Chronicle, 15 Aug.1846: On the 7th inst., in the Presbyterian Church of Kilraughts, by the Rev. John Alexander, of Ballyrashane, Thomas G. Elder, Esq., of Pine Hill, in the parish of Kilraughts, to Margaret, youngest daughter of the late George White, Esq., of Cave Hill, in the parish of Carnmoney.

Coleraine Chronicle, 2 Oct.1852: At Pinehill, on the 24th ult., the wife of Mr. Thomas Elder, of Pinehill, of a son.
Me again, Aghadowey!
At risk of making a complete nuisance of myself, could I try and clear up something with you, please?

I have unearthed a photocopied Fasti page (from PRONI) which details Rev Matthew & Rev Henry Elder as brothers, and sons of Matthew Elder, a farmer near Garvagh.  This must be the Rev Matthew you refer to as the dates match: 1767-1827.
Rev James Elder, however, is quoted in this same document as the 1st son of John Elder, farmer, Ballury, Garvagh.  Again, I know it's the same James Elder because the dates match.
Which means this Matthew Elder and this Rev James "Gunner" Elder couldn't have been half-brothers.
So, I'm wondering if I've got the right Matthew Elder for Adelaide's grandfather?
Am I missing something really obvious and being an idiot? (not beyond the realms of possibility, I have to admit!)
Would your sources be able to shed any more light?
As always, I am so grateful for your help.
Gail
Title: Re: Adelaide Finlay Elder (c1850-1913) Coleraine
Post by: ann elder on Friday 26 July 13 22:46 BST (UK)
hi  do u know i the robert elder had any children :)
Title: Re: Adelaide Finlay Elder (c1850-1913) Coleraine
Post by: aghadowey on Friday 26 July 13 23:14 BST (UK)
hi  do u know i the robert elder had any children :)

I think this is the only Robert Elder mentioned in this topic-
Rev. Matthew Elder (Kilraughts) born 1767 Garvagh, Co. Derry. Brother Henry Elder(Faughanvale) and half-brother James Elder (Finvoy- known as 'Gun of the Gospel'). Another brother was Robert (died 1842 age 69).

Is that the Robert Elder you are asking about? If so, he had at least one son.
Title: Re: Adelaide Finlay Elder (c1850-1913) Coleraine
Post by: ann elder on Saturday 27 July 13 22:54 BST (UK)
thanks i think that might be a different line my ggg grandfather was matthew born 1825 approx son robert cant seem to get any further back matthews father i think was james born around the 1790 al  lived round the finvoy direction    any suggestions
Title: Re: Adelaide Finlay Elder (c1850-1913) Coleraine
Post by: aghadowey on Sunday 28 July 13 08:40 BST (UK)
There is a death registration for a Matthew Elder, age 70, in 1896 Ballymoney district- is this your Matthew?

Since Matthew would have married after the start of civil registration (1845 for non-Catholic marriages) then his marriage certificate would list his father's name and occupation.

To research the family properly you need to know where they lived (townland) not just 'Finvoy area'.
Title: Re: Adelaide Finlay Elder (c1850-1913) Coleraine
Post by: ann elder on Sunday 28 July 13 23:34 BST (UK)
yes thats my ggggrandfather he lived in claughey  he was married to a maryjane mcelroy in 1851 and his father was james i dont know anything about james of if he was related to that minister in finvoy?
Title: Re: Adelaide Finlay Elder (c1850-1913) Coleraine
Post by: ann elder on Monday 29 July 13 23:24 BST (UK)
yes thats my ggggrandfather he lived in claughey  he was married to a maryjane mcelroy in 1851 and his father was james i dont know anything about james of if he was related to that minister in finvoy?
Title: Re: Adelaide Finlay Elder (c1850-1913) Coleraine
Post by: Belfast Gail on Tuesday 30 July 13 21:56 BST (UK)
I have been watching your posts with interest, but I think perhaps your line, Anne, is a different one to mine.  I have checked through my records and can find no mention of a Matthew Elder, son of Robert. 
If the information was readily available I have no doubt Aghadowey would be straight on it!
You could look at the comprehensive piece of work at: http://www.familytrail.com/elder/YahooFiles/A.Craig.Elder.pdf
and I have found Nancy Elder Petersen to be extremely knowledgeable and approachable. Her address is: nancyelderpeterson@yahoo.com.  She is host for the Elder Surname DNA project, and I came across her just on the internet.
Maybe you will find something that ties in with your search on their sites.  I do hope so. 
I am sorry I can't be of more help to you.
Gail  :)
Title: Re: Adelaide Finlay Elder (c1850-1913) Coleraine
Post by: ann elder on Wednesday 31 July 13 23:42 BST (UK)
thanks anyway gail i will keep plodding on a long slow process this bbut i do enjoy   ann
Title: Re: Adelaide Finlay Elder (c1850-1913) Coleraine
Post by: NancyElderPetersen on Thursday 05 December 13 23:53 GMT (UK)
Hi ELDER researchers!  I'm happy to see this ELDER topic!
  RE: NANCY ELDER PETERSEN
  I just saw my name mentioned, except PETERSEN has all "E's" -- husband has DANISH roots....
E-mail me anytime!

As host of the ELDER Y-DNA project on FamilyTreeDNA server of Houston, Texas,
I have now posted links for many lines of ELDER, including one I have named for "PAXTANG PENNSYLVANIA". 
 JAMES ELDER (Gun of the Gospel) of BALLYMONEY has been identified in that group.

We have discovered that several different DNA lines of ELDER lived in BALLYMONEY,
including the one that matches the "PAXTANG PENNSYLVANIA" DNA group. 
9 Y-DNA kits matching "PAXTANG" group are now posted on the ELDER Y-DNA RESULTS chart:
at
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Elder (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Elder)

See my notes and links for BALLYMONEY
at
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~nancyelder/ed/BallymoneyData.htm (http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~nancyelder/ed/BallymoneyData.htm)

Several ROBERT ELDER names have been mixed up in the Pennsylvania histories.
I have posted notes about ROBERT ELDER Family of "PAXTANG."
From Book chapter in: "Pennsylvania Genealogies." by Egle, William Henry.  Published 1886.
at
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~nancyelder/EglePAelder.htm
  Pages 151-176
Chapter heading:
    ELDER FAMILY.
 I. ROBERT ELDER, b. about 1679 in Scotland, emigrated from Lough Neagh, County Antrim,
     Ireland, where he had previously settled, to America, about 1730, locating in Paxtang
     township, then Lancaster, now Dauphin county, Pa., on a tract of land near the first ridge of
    the Kittochtinny mountains, five miles north of Harrisburg. He died the 28th of July, 1746, in
      Paxtang, and is buried in the old church grave-yard..."

EGLE's BOOK is also posted full text on GOOGLE BOOKS:
at
http://books.google.com/books?id=d7_akH9VO_cC&dq=%22pennsylvania+genealogies+scotch+irish+and+german%22 (http://books.google.com/books?id=d7_akH9VO_cC&dq=%22pennsylvania+genealogies+scotch+irish+and+german%22)

In my ELDER Family research, I would like to find ancestors in Scotland to connect the paper trail to my Revolutionary War Soldier,
Robert ELDER, b. 1730 Perth, Scotland - d. 1807 Franklin County, Pennsylvania.
I named my (brother's) DNA group "FRANKLIN COUNTY PA"
 after ELDER ancestors with different DNA from others in the chart.
However, one ELDER line of BALLYMONEY matches my brother's group of "FRANKLIN COUNTY PA".
See:
"Preamble to [Wisconsin] Elder family genealogy"
  "..A copy of my fathers birth certificate states the following facts.
     "My father, James Gray Elder, was born on the
      21st of July in the year 1868.
      His birth was recorded in the District of Derraw, in the
      Superintendent Registrar's District of Ballymoney, in the County of Antrim, North Ireland....
      "His father's name was Joseph Dickey Elder, my grandfather.
       "His mother's name was Margaret Ann (Gray) Elder, my grandmother. ...
        "It was my belief that both my grandfather and grandmother were born in Scotland in the 
         area of Edinburgh. ...

Always a new mystery!
Nancy Elder Petersen
Vancouver, Washington State, USA (Southern Washington on the Columbia River)
Host, ELDER DNA project
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Elder
Title: Elders in Aghadowey
Post by: LindeL on Tuesday 05 May 15 14:24 BST (UK)
I have just this past week become extremely interested in the reverend John Elder who died in 1779; minister of Aghadowey for 50 years from 1723. Does anyone know anything about his family? Can he be placed in any of the local Elder families, and in particular is  he a relative of James Elder of Finvoy? their theological views seem to have been very different
Title: Re: Adelaide Finlay Elder (c1850-1913) Coleraine
Post by: Belfast Gail on Tuesday 05 May 15 16:01 BST (UK)
At risk of repeating info you already have, the following is an extract from FASTI of the Irish Presbyterian Church:

507 ELDER JOHN: b nr Garvagh, 1693; educ Glas 1713; MA 1715: lic Route Pres 1722; ord Aghadowey 7 May 1723; withdrew with his cong & joined Antrim Pres 1726; ret 1773 when cong returned to Gen Syn; d 24 Sept 1779.
For marrying a couple irregularly he was refused admission as member to Derry Sub-Syn 1726


In my (somewhat limited) experience, had there been a direct link between this John Elder and Rev James Elder of Finvoy, FASTI would make reference to it, and it doesn't.

Good luck with your search :)
Gail
Title: Re: Adelaide Finlay Elder (c1850-1913) Coleraine
Post by: NancyElderPetersen on Tuesday 05 May 15 17:08 BST (UK)
Thanks to RootsChat for sending me the alert for this ELDER topic!
I'm also now interested in possible ELDER relatives living in Belfast,
because a Y-DNA match has recently been posted in my brother's DNA category of
"FRANKLIN COUNTY PENNSYLVANIA" with a
Belfast ancestor listed for new kit #323923:
    "Joseph Elder, b. 1900 Belfast, NI  - d. 1987 Chicago IL."

Re: Rev. JOHN ELDER of Aghadowey:
I have reason to believe he is in the "PAXTANG PA" DNA group with Rev. JAMES ELDER of FINVOY, after researching another Rev. JOHN ELDER, of "PAXTANG PA".
....  According to Egle's "Pennsylvania Genealogies," he was born
in the city of Edinburg, January 26, 1706. Sprague says he was left in Edinburgh in care of his uncle, Rev. John Elder, to complete his classical studies and prepare for the ministry..."
  In the Microfiche printout "Parson ELDER" of PA by Egle, a handwritten  page is titled "Two Sermons by John ELDER, Uncle of Parson Elder" - my notes posted
at
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~nancyelder/pa/ParsonElder.htm

One dated MDCCXXV and one MDCCXXVII, 1725  and 1727.

"Reasons For Moderation In the present Debates amongst Presbyterians in the North Of Ireland.
By John Elder, M.A., Minister of the Gospel (Quotation)
Belfast: Printed by James Blow, and are to be Sold at his Shope, MDCCXXV."

"A Letter To the Reverend Mr. Robert McBride;
Occasion'd by his pretending to defend Mr. Elder's Suspension, and
by devers injurious Reflections cast upon Mr. Elder, in his late Pamphlet,
Ens..the Overtures transmitted by the General Synod, 1725, set in a fair Light, etc.
By John Elder A.M., Minister of the Gospel. (Quotation).
 Belfast, Printed by James Blow, and ...to be Sold at his Shope."

Found in:
LINEN HALL LIBRARY
at
http://www.linenhall.com
 Location Shelfmark Loan Type Availability
BPB Collection  BPB1725.6/Pamphlet Book 95
BPB Collection  BPB1727.1
Title: Re: Adelaide Finlay Elder (c1850-1913) Coleraine
Post by: Belfast Gail on Tuesday 05 May 15 17:49 BST (UK)
Hi Nancy
I am an Elder descendent, living in Belfast, and I would be willing to take a DNA test, if it would help?
Adelaide Finlay Elder was my mother's grandmother, and the family is pretty sure she was related to Rev James Elder of Finvoy as my mother was left a small portrait of him, and his shoe buckle (which I now have).  That said, I haven't been able to definitively establish the link between them.
Gail
Title: Re: Adelaide Finlay Elder (c1850-1913) Coleraine
Post by: aghadowey on Tuesday 05 May 15 17:53 BST (UK)
Thanks to RootsChat for sending me the alert for this ELDER topic!
I'm also now interested in possible ELDER relatives living in Belfast,
because a Y-DNA match has recently been posted in my brother's DNA category of
"FRANKLIN COUNTY PENNSYLVANIA" with a
Belfast ancestor listed for new kit #323923:
    "Joseph Elder, b. 1900 Belfast, NI  - d. 1987 Chicago IL."

Is this the same Joseph Elder?
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Clifton_Ward/Herbert_Street/983624
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Antrim/Clifton/Fairfield_Street/184009
Title: Re: Adelaide Finlay Elder (c1850-1913) Coleraine
Post by: NancyElderPetersen on Tuesday 05 May 15 19:20 BST (UK)
Thanks!  That family looks good for the Joseph b. BELFAST 1900.
I'll send the census info to our Y-DNA member in Illinois.
Title: Re: Adelaide Finlay Elder (c1850-1913) Coleraine
Post by: NancyElderPetersen on Tuesday 05 May 15 19:42 BST (UK)
Hi Gail,
  The quickest and cheapest method to show matches in
Y-DNA kits for "PAXTANG" or my brother's "FRANKLIN CO PA" categories,
would be to find one of your known male relatives also named ELDER
 to take the Y-DNA test for $59.00.
I can send you a free kit for that Y-DNA male test.
  See the "PAXTANG" category on the ELDER Y-DNA RESULTS
chart, which has an origins label "I-223", also called "I-ISLES, SCOTS, VIKING."
  While "FRANKLIN CO PA" category on the ELDER Y-DNA RESULTS chart
has an origins label "R1b1, R-M369 or R-P312," which probably comes from ancient Picts of Scotland. 
    So they are easily identified and separated by Y-DNA, male paternal test.
ELDER Y-DNA RESULTS CHART
at
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Elder?iframe=yresults
Title: Re: Adelaide Finlay Elder (c1850-1913) Coleraine
Post by: aghadowey on Tuesday 05 May 15 23:31 BST (UK)
Thanks!  That family looks good for the Joseph b. BELFAST 1900.
I'll send the census info to our Y-DNA member in Illinois.

If you read the complete details in those 2 census records you will see that Joseph Elder's family are Catholic and from County Louth.
Title: Re: Adelaide Finlay Elder (c1850-1913) Coleraine
Post by: NancyElderPetersen on Wednesday 06 May 15 01:08 BST (UK)
Now I see JOSH ELDER has posted this Charles ELDER in his Ancestry.com TREE
with the same census references and children. No parents.
Marriage in Dundalk, the county town and administrative capital of County Louth.

Charles Elder Family Tree
   •   Birth:  Abt 1856
   •   Marriage:  Sep 1888 - Dundalk, Ireland
   •   Spouse:  Elizabeth O'Hare
***
Also listed:
Ireland, Civil Registration Marriages Index, 1845-1958
Name:
Charles Elder
Date of Registration:
Jul-Aug-Sep 1888
Registration district:
Dundalk
Volume:
2
Page Number:
627
FHL Film Number:
101255
Records on Page:
Name
Bridget Byrne
Elizabeth O'Hare
Daniel M'Ginness
Daniel M'Ginness
Mary Boyle
Thomas Rooney
Daniel M'Guinness
Charles Elder
Source Information Ancestry.com.
 Ireland, Civil Registration Marriages Index, 1845-1958

Title: Re: Adelaide Finlay Elder (c1850-1913) Coleraine
Post by: NancyElderPetersen on Wednesday 06 May 15 03:48 BST (UK)
TO BELFAST GAIL,
I sent your info about momentos and possible connection to Rev. James ELDER of Finvoy to:
"Mary McCAULEY POST" E-mail:  (*)
She lives in State of Oregon, USA, near me.
She is a relative of Rev. James ELDER of Finvoy, has visited Ballymoney area several times,
writes to me today:
  >"Can you send GAIL my email address and ask her to email me?"
Hope this works!

(*) Moderator Comment: e-mail removed in accordance with RootsChat policy,
to avoid spamming and other abuses.
Please use the Personal Message (PM) system for exchanging personal data.

See Help-Page:  http://www.rootschat.com/help/pms.php
Title: Re: Adelaide Finlay Elder (c1850-1913) Coleraine
Post by: aghadowey on Wednesday 06 May 15 08:50 BST (UK)
DNA testing is all well and good for certain things but sometimes it's hard to beat proper, old-fashioned research.

Now I see JOSH ELDER has posted this Charles ELDER in his Ancestry.com TREE
with the same census references and children. No parents.
Marriage in Dundalk, the county town and administrative capital of County Louth.

Perhaps that person already has more detail or has simply not put it on their online tree but it sounds as though they haven't even gotten the marriage certificate to get father's name and occupation, etc.

In any case, as they are Catholics and From County Louth there's unlikely to be a close connection to Adelaide Finlay Elder, the subject of this topic.
Title: Re: Adelaide Finlay Elder (c1850-1913) Coleraine
Post by: NancyElderPetersen on Wednesday 06 May 15 12:28 BST (UK)
Re: Charles ELDER of County Louth and Belfast:
In the old days of paper family history assumptions, we might dismiss the Catholic designation and County Louth family location as non-relatives, but
now we know that this Charles Elder carries the paternal Y-DNA,
same as the descendant matching my brother's Y-DNA kit #10042.
We also know that Ballymoney and Belfast both have matching
DNA locations for my brother, so I might speculate that Charles' family
came from Scotland, married into a Catholic family.
 ---Nancy Elder Petersen, Volunteer Host, ELDER DNA project of Houston, Texas
Links and results:
 http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Elder
Title: Re: Adelaide Finlay Elder (c1850-1913) Coleraine
Post by: aghadowey on Wednesday 06 May 15 16:42 BST (UK)
Re-read my previous post and see that I somehow omitted the word close which I've now added in red.

I've been researching enough years to know that intermarriages between Protestant and Catholics did happen and that people did move around the country, overseas, etc. but If there is indeed a connection with Charles Elder of Co. Louth and Elders of Ballymoney area the logical thing to do would be to trace back Charles' family.
Title: Re: Adelaide Finlay Elder (c1850-1913) Coleraine
Post by: NancyElderPetersen on Wednesday 06 May 15 18:01 BST (UK)
Researching ELDER families in Scotland, posting notes on my Rootsweb
pages for most counties:
at
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~nancyelder/ed/Perth.htm

Includes an early CHARLES ELDER name found in this family by A. A. HUGHES:
   "THOMAS ELDER 1737-1799, Lord Provost of Edinburgh and Postmaster General of Scotland, former wine merchant who married Elizabeth Man. They had one son WILLIAM ELDER and their eldest of 4 daughters, Isabella, married the Principal of Edinburgh University, George Husband Baird 1761-1840.
This line begins with William Elder Engineer in 17th century,
then Alexander Elder of Forres near Inverness,
his son William Elder of Loaning near Pitlochry
(ca 1710 to 1780 at least), father of Thomas above and of Charles 1749-1823.
Charles was in the Royal Navy and taken prisoner by the Americans in 1777 for 13 months with an address at Rhode Island.
Later appointed to Lord Howe's flagship *The Eagle* and in
action against the French off Rhode Island in 1778."

Forneth: Parish of Clunie, Perthshire,
near Blairgowrie:
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/sct/PER/Clunie
Title: Re: Adelaide Finlay Elder (c1850-1913) Coleraine
Post by: aghadowey on Wednesday 06 May 15 19:42 BST (UK)
As I said earlier=

DNA testing is all well and good for certain things but sometimes it's hard to beat proper, old-fashioned research.
Title: Re: Adelaide Finlay Elder (c1850-1913) Coleraine
Post by: NancyElderPetersen on Wednesday 06 May 15 19:54 BST (UK)
ARGYLL has early ELDER names as well
My notes posted
 at
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~nancyelder/ed/Argyll.htm

1841 ARGYLL Census - Ancestry.com

Name:   Charles Elder
Age:  75
Estimated birth year: abt 1766
Gender:  Male
Where born:  Argyll, Scotland
Civil parish:  Campbeltown
County:  Argyll
Address:  Castle Hill
Parish Number:  507
ED:  6
Page:  7
***
Household:
Charles Elder    abt 1766  Argyll, Scotland  Campbeltown  Argyll
Agnes Kerr  abt 1791  Argyll, Scotland  Campbeltown  Argyll
Elizabeth Kerr  abt 1826  Argyll, Scotland  Campbeltown  Argyll
Isabella Kerr  abt 1838  Argyll, Scotland  Campbeltown  Argyll
James Kerr  abt 1791  Argyll, Scotland  Campbeltown  Argyll
John Kerr  abt 1821  Argyll, Scotland  Campbeltown  Argyll
Lillias Kerr  abt 1821  Argyll, Scotland  Campbeltown  Argyll
Robert Kerr  abt 1831  Argyll, Scotland  Campbeltown  Argyll

***

1851 Census ARGYLL -- Ancestry.com
Ann Elder    James    abt 1815   Tarbert, Argyle   Wife   Kilcalmonell   Argyll
Ann Elder    James    abt 1817  Tarbert, Argyle  Wife  Kilcalmonell and Kilberry  Argyll
James Elder Ann abt 1807 Campbelto, Argyle  Head  Kilcalmonell  Argyll
James Elder  Ann  abt 1807  Campbeth, Argyle  Head  Kilcalmonell and Kilberry  Argyll
Thomas Elder  abt 1777  Balquhidder, Perthshire  Head  Kilchoman  Argyll
Title: Re: Adelaide Finlay Elder (c1850-1913) Coleraine
Post by: LindeL on Thursday 07 May 15 14:59 BST (UK)
thanks to Gail for reply; yes, I had the outline of his career, but it was useful to have the dates confirmed;; I think he must be related to other Elder ministers, the Finvoy one in particular, also born near Garvagh one or two? generations later. We'll keep looking!

Linde
Title: Re: Adelaide Finlay Elder (c1850-1913) Coleraine
Post by: Belfast Gail on Sunday 31 May 15 16:46 BST (UK)
I am still wrestling with this Elder line!  :-\

I know Adelaide's father was Thomas Elder, possibly TG Elder, who died in Australia in 1869. If the T Elder on her marriage record is, in fact, Thomas G Elder, that makes his father, Rev Matthew Elder (1767-1827) of Kilraughts Presbyterian Church, her grandfather.  There appears to be a relationship between this Rev Matthew and Rev James (Gunner) Elder of Finvoy, and I would dearly love to understand its nature.

FASTI records Rev Matthew's father as Matthew, a farmer; and Rev James's father as John, so Matthew and James weren't brothers - I have found a quote from The Irish Presbyterian: Our Own Worthies. XII. Rev. James Elder, of Finvoy
2nd paragraph
  (http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~nancyelder/ed/BallymoneyData.htm), stating unequivocally they were half brothers. James was born some 10 years earlier than Matthew, so could they have shared a mother?

Then, I saw a couple of articles that claim Matthew Snr and John were brothers, which would make Revs Matthew and James first cousins. But would FASTI not record them as such? 

Is it safe to assume FASTI records are beyond dispute, I wonder? Has anyone found them to be inaccurate or with omissions?

Any thoughts would be most welcome, and very gratefully received.
Title: Re: Adelaide Finlay Elder (c1850-1913) Coleraine
Post by: Belfast Gail on Sunday 17 April 16 14:16 BST (UK)
Hi Aghadowey
I have made some progress!  TH Mullin's book 'Coleraine in Modern Times' confirms that Adelaide was, indeed, Rev Matthew's granddaughter, which makes TG Elder her father. I think you suggested that Adelaide and her sister Margaret were left in the care of Thomas's sister, Jane, when he emigrated to Australia, possibly following the demise of his wife, Margaret.
I have found the attached passenger list, from Sept 1857, showing TG Elder aboard the 'John Linn' destined for Australia, but there appears to be a wife, Margaret, and 2 children (aged 12 & 1) with him.  Why, I wonder, would they leave 2 little girls behind in Ireland?  What do you think?

Also, it seems your sources were correct - S Alexander Blair's 'Kilraughts: A Kirk and its People' states that Revs Matthew & Henry were brothers, and Rev James of Finvoy was a half brother.  I don't understand how FASTI names 2 different fathers, if they're half brothers - what am I missing?

Any thoughts would be very welcome  :)
Title: Re: Adelaide Finlay Elder (c1850-1913) Coleraine
Post by: Belfast Gail on Sunday 17 April 16 14:16 BST (UK)
Hi Nancy
Since your last post here, I have taken a DNA test with FamilyTree.  I had to take the Family Finder test as I don't have access to a male descendent.  Would my test results be of any interest to you?


 


 
Title: Re: Adelaide Finlay Elder (c1850-1913) Coleraine
Post by: NancyElderPetersen on Sunday 17 April 16 14:47 BST (UK)
Hi Nancy
Since your last post here, I have taken a DNA test with FamilyTree.  I had to take the Family Finder test as I don't have access to a male descendent.  Would my test results be of any interest to you?

Yes indeed! That would be great!  Please use JOIN on our ELDER DNA project webpage
to enter your kit # and password
at
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Elder
 


 
Title: Re: Adelaide Finlay Elder (c1850-1913) Coleraine
Post by: Belfast Gail on Sunday 17 April 16 15:53 BST (UK)
I've just joined your group, Nancy  :)
I'm still trying to make sense of DNA testing, so could I rely on you to let me know if any significant matches turn up, please?
Title: Re: Adelaide Finlay Elder (c1850-1913) Coleraine
Post by: NancyElderPetersen on Sunday 17 April 16 17:13 BST (UK)
I've just joined your group, Nancy  :)
I'm still trying to make sense of DNA testing, so could I rely on you to let me know if any significant matches turn up, please?

Thanks!  Will view the matches now!
 First, I use the search box titled: ANCESTRAL SURNAMES.
Type in ELDER, view list of those with ELDER in their surname list.
Click GREEN PEDIGREE ICON in those matches to show any ELDER entries.
 Will send discoveries via e-mail.
Title: Re: Adelaide Finlay Elder (c1850-1913) Coleraine
Post by: nzirish on Saturday 14 October 17 05:38 BST (UK)
Hi Aghadowey, I have just joined this site, having seen your thread about the Elder family. I am a direct descendant of Hugh Williamson/Sarah Jane Williamson Caskey, and note that you have been researching families in Aghadowey and surrounding parishes. I am trying to establish more links with the Bellis/Bellas families having seen Hugh Bellis's will. I have been working with several other descendants of the Williamson family - we are scattered around the world - USA, Australia and New Zealand. There are also links to the Dunlop/Hunter and King families. Hope you can help us.Thanks
Title: Re: Adelaide Finlay Elder (c1850-1913) Coleraine
Post by: aghadowey on Saturday 14 October 17 20:47 BST (UK)
Hi Aghadowey, I have just joined this site, having seen your thread about the Elder family. I am a direct descendant of Hugh Williamson/Sarah Jane Williamson Caskey, and note that you have been researching families in Aghadowey and surrounding parishes. I am trying to establish more links with the Bellis/Bellas families having seen Hugh Bellis's will. I have been working with several other descendants of the Williamson family - we are scattered around the world - USA, Australia and New Zealand. There are also links to the Dunlop/Hunter and King families. Hope you can help us.Thanks

I've been researching the Hunter-Williamson connection for almost 30 years but not sure exactly what you are looking for.
Title: Re: Adelaide Finlay Elder (c1850-1913) Coleraine
Post by: nzirish on Saturday 14 October 17 22:35 BST (UK)
We have some information on the Williamson/Hunter link - a researcher did some years ago for another family looking at the Williamsons in Aghadowey. I don't know exactly how she found the information, but Hugh Williamson 1759-1822 married Catherine Hunter 1763-1818. She was the daughter of John Hunter b.1736. I also found a will for George Hunter who had nominated Hugh Williamson 1827-1879 as an executor. We realise that there are a number of different Williamson families in the area - don't know where they are related. Do you know anything about the Bellis/Bellas families - were there 2?
Title: Re: Adelaide Finlay Elder (c1850-1913) Coleraine
Post by: aghadowey on Saturday 14 October 17 22:51 BST (UK)
Williamsons were Claggan Cottage in the townland of Claggan (also known as Clagan)- house is little square on what is now called Clagan Park-
https://www.townlands.ie/londonderry/coleraine/aghadowey/clagan/

You can compare modern map to historical image on this Griffith's Valuation site-
http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/index.xml?action=placeSearch

Bellas & Bellis same family just different spellings. Sarah Bellas married Hugh Williamson (son of Catherine Hunter & Hugh Williamson). Williamson & Bellas families also had property in Portstewart from memory.
Title: Re: Adelaide Finlay Elder (c1850-1913) Coleraine
Post by: nzirish on Sunday 15 October 17 01:53 BST (UK)
Thanks for the confirmation of the location of the cottage - my cousin visited the area recently and was shown where it probably was - she has confirmed that it is where she went. We have a very old photo of the cottage on ancestry. Also, thanks for the link to the map. We are wondering about the close link of Hugh Bellis having seen his will to the Caskey daughters ( Sarah Jane and Eliza King), and are wondering if he and Jane also raised them - their mother (unknown Williamson) appears to have died young as not in the 1831 Census in Samuel Caskeys (died 1849) house in Church St Coleraine - there are no females listed, but 3 families. Thanks again for your help.
Caskeys are another family we don't know much about either!
Title: Re: Adelaide Finlay Elder (c1850-1913) Coleraine
Post by: dunbought49 on Sunday 29 April 18 18:59 BST (UK)
Family first names can be so interesting. I have just found this conversation on Adelaide Finlay Elder and can add one more to your collection. My grandmother is Elizabeth Torrens Calwell daughter of Jane Maria McVicker and John Torrens Calwell .My great grandparents married in 1872 and had 8 children 5 daughters Gelston Sarah Calwell (1872-1883); Elizabeth Torrens Calwell (1877-1959) moved to Scotland on marriage had 9 children; Graham Isabella Elder Calwell(1880-1953 unmarried); Adelaide Finlay Elder Calwell (1882-1969) moved to New Zealand married Thomas Elliot and had 3 children and Jane Maria Calwell (1887-1995) moved to New Zealand married Hugh Shaw and had 4 children
they had 2 sons James Edmonston McVicker Calwell (1875-1955) who moved to Australia and then New Zealand and had 2 children; John Torrens Calwell (1884-1954) who moved to NSw Australia and had one child possible 2.
thank you all for your information which has helped to clarify my confusion
Title: Re: Adelaide Finlay Elder (c1850-1913) Coleraine
Post by: Belfast Gail on Sunday 29 April 18 22:00 BST (UK)
Hi Dunbought49
We must be related!  Jane Maria McVicker is my 1st cousin 3 times removed, I believe.  Her grandfather was Rev Matthew Elder, from whom my line descends - he is my 3x great grandfather,
I didn't realise some of the family moved to New Zealand.  Isabella's brother moved to Australia and died there (in Melbourne). in 1869.  He left 2 little girls who were raised by Jane Elder and Hugh Bellis. One of them was Adelaide Finlay Elder, my great grandmother.
I am very happy to share any information I have on the early Elders, if that would be of any interest.  And I am delighted to read your post.  One query I have: my notes show a spelling of 'Colwell' not 'Calwell' - have I got it hopelessly wrong or this another case of ambiguity of data capture of the time?
So lovely to hear from you
Gail

Title: Re: Adelaide Finlay Elder (c1850-1913) Coleraine
Post by: dunbought49 on Monday 30 April 18 22:02 BST (UK)
Delighted to hear from you and for the information you have given me. I only discovered about other Adelaide Finlay Elder's yesterday when my brother sent me a link to this program but could not resist replying. I would love to share any information you have on the Elder family. We have no living relatives of my grandmothers family in Ireland. I found Isabella's marriage details on Belfast news on ancestry and wrote to Kilraught's church and then to S.A Blair who gave me some more info and told me to read his book on the church history. Do you happen to have it?. I would love to have your family info. My great aunt Graham Isabella Elder Calwell had a framed copy of Rev. James Elder' obituary in 1843 so I have been looking for his connection for 20 odd years but have a few variations. the spelling of Calwell causes some problems All of my ancestors from Andrew Calwell use this spelling but his father used spelling Caldwell. I only discovered this when an American descendant contacted me a couple of years ago those that went there continued to use Caldwell. My grandparents moved to Scotland in 1894 and we are still here in small numbers.
thank you for replying
Title: Re: Adelaide Finlay Elder (c1850-1913) Coleraine
Post by: Belfast Gail on Tuesday 01 May 18 10:45 BST (UK)
Would you pm me your email address, so I can send you a couple of documents?
G
Title: Re: Adelaide Finlay Elder (c1850-1913) Coleraine
Post by: dunbought49 on Thursday 24 May 18 22:48 BST (UK)
Hi Gail
I received the Matthew Elder  tree and some stuff on Thomas G Elder and Matthew elder.
I have just found your message tonight - my password would not work. I was looking for your emails when I found this.
the wifi was not very good at Chorley and I have been busy cleaning washing etc in this good weather so Have not been on the computer much. Watching Chelsea flower show this week.
I don't know what I did but I seemed to have sent you a response without writing anything.
Regards Anna