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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Rutland => Topic started by: Jaahda on Thursday 16 May 13 13:07 BST (UK)
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I haven't been able to find any info about Knossingham. Can someone help pls?
Thanks
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Hi and welcome to Rootschat
Do you mean Knossington which is in Leicestershire?
Can you give details of the Rawlings family you are researching plase - full names, birthyears etc
Please do not show details of anybody who is still living
EDIT
Is this linked to your other post which I have just seen
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,647136.new.html#new
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Thanks. I suspect I have many Rawlings relatives in Rutland.
The 1861 Census return for this locale shows several Rawlings families;
"(1861 census; Address: Knossington, Braunston, Oakham)"
I couldn't find the place on Genuki either. In fact Genuki - usually such a wealth of information had very little about Rutland.
The earliest direct Rawlings ancestor I have tracked so far is; Rawlings, George Jos, b. 1796, Rutland, Oakham, married to Sarah??? possibly Lyne. I have 4 children for them; Thomas, b1829, Rebecca, b 1831, Esmerelda, born 1841 and my direct ancestor William, born 1834 who married Mary Anne Woods.
They had 2 children before moving to Yorkshire some time before 1886. Indeed I also have not been able to find a birth or baptism entry For William, born after the 1861 Census - most likely in 1862.
Thanks
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Hi
Let's take it a step at a time and set it out in order of event
George Joseph Rawlings b 1796 Oakham married a Sarah - maiden name n/k
They had 4 children - presumably all born in Oakham??
Thomas 1829
Rebecca 1831
William 1834 - your direct line who married Mary Ann Woods
Esmeralda 1841
The 1851 shows George born 1793
No Esmeralda - shown as Emma in 1851 and this appears to be her birth reg
Births September qtr 1841
Emma Rawlings Oakham 15 662
They had 2 children before moving to Yorkshire some time before 1886. Indeed I also have not been able to find a birth or baptism entry For William, born after the 1861 Census - most likely in 1862.
I assume this is a reference to William and Mary Ann?
So some more info please:
When and where did William marry Mary Ann
You mention a William possibly born 1862 - where was he born?
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Thankyou for Emma's details.
George Joseph Rawlings married Sarah Lyne. This I extrapolate from the reading of many Census returns; though I can find no record of their marriage using the resources mentioned before.
Mary Ann Rawlings Nee Woods married William Rawlings (again this is inferred from |Census returns - I have found no details of marriage) and they lived in Knossington (or ham), Braunston, Rutland where they had two children in Rutland before moving to Wetherby, Yorkshire sometime before 1868 (not 1886 - sorry).
Since posting this thread I found the family on another Census (1851) which gives William a different county of birth (Stapleford, Leicestershire) - but despite this I still cannot find him.
Many thanks for you assistance :-)
George Joseph Rawlings b 1796 Oakham married a Sarah - maiden name n/k
They had 4 children - presumably all born in Oakham??
Thomas 1829
Rebecca 1831
William 1834 - your direct line who married Mary Ann Woods
Esmeralda 1841
The 1851 shows George born 1793
No Esmeralda - shown as Emma in 1851 and this appears to be her birth reg
Births September qtr 1841
Emma Rawlings Oakham 15 662
Quote
They had 2 children before moving to Yorkshire some time before 1886. Indeed I also have not been able to find a birth or baptism entry For William, born after the 1861 Census - most likely in 1862.
I assume this is a reference to William and Mary Ann?
So some more info please:
When and where did William marry Mary Ann and what was her maiden name
You mention a William possibly born 1862 - where was he born?
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George Joseph Rawlings married Sarah Lyne. This I extrapolate from the reading of many Census returns
By extrapolate - do you mean guesswork?
Some Lyne people were living with them in 1841 but no relationship shown and they do not appear with them on later censuses between 1851-1871
In 1861 - George is shown as born 1790. Where did you get his middle name of Joseph from as none of the census entries show it
Son William b 1835 is living with them in 1861 - unmarried and birthplace is Stapleford Leics
1871 shows George's birthyear as 1791 and he was 82 when he died in 1873 so I think 1790-1791 is probably more likely than 1796
It would be advisable to buy a copy of Emma's birth cert to confirm Sarah's maiden name if you are unable to find a marriage under Lyne
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Extrapolate? I'd call it a somewhat educated guess - and I cannot imagine English records ever being as accessible in the online world as Scotland's People - oh - how I wish that England could be like that!!
Perhaps you may have an opinion as to whether or not it is likely that England may one day have all their GRO records online?
Something I'd really like to know - and all those genealogy sites advertise 'their wares' so ferociously is what records exactly are available online? For instance it might be nice if they'd say something like, "we have 37% of available records for this parish (etc) online".
Online genealogy is like a shark's world - except in Scotland LOL.
I came into this forum unsure of how anyone in here might be able to help.
This is my first encounter of Rootschat. I initially thought I'd arrived in a forum that was only for Rutland - but now I see that there are forums for many, many places. And that you (with the lovely looking pussycat) answer a lot of posts regarding differing regions.
Perhaps I need a better 'rundown' on what exactly 'rootschat' is all about.
I'd imagined it might be a place where lots of "local people help out people who discover they have familial roots".
I shall remain undaunted by my attempt at discovering my English ancestry via 'extrapolating' from the indeces and census returns available online. Ordering and paying for hundreds of certificates is way beyond my capacity - both financially and time-wise. Conversely, on Scotland's People it is both affordable to see original records and only takes a minimum amount of time.
Once again - thanks for any help you might be able to give me.
I appreciate any help you may be able to give me whilst I also wonder what resources you have access to that I don't have and I also wonder if I may too be able to gain access to something that I have not yet uncovered as an online resource.
Thanks
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Unfortunately - educated guesses have often proved to be incorrect as many people will tell you having spent a lot of time and money only to subsequently find they were following the wrong line
and I cannot imagine English records ever being as accessible in the online world as Scotland's People - oh - how I wish that England could be like that!!
Perhaps you may have an opinion as to whether or not it is likely that England may one day have all their GRO records online?
Ancestry and FindMyPast have the full GRO (ie) BMD index from its inception in 1837 up to 2006 but unlike Scotland - the full details from those certificates are not viewable online.
Whilst marriages and deaths from 1837 can usually be found - failure to register a birth only became a fineable offence in 1875 so may births went unregistered prior to (and in some cases after) 1875
England and Wales have www.freebmd.org.uk which is an ongoing volunteer project and currently contains 228,234,652 distinct records and 288,486,564 total records
If you access the Home Page and click on "A breakdown by event and year can be viewed here" you can see the breakdown for each event
From it's title - you can see it's Free to access
Perhaps I need a better 'rundown' on what exactly 'rootschat' is all about.
Rootschat is manned by volunteers with access to a variety of FH resources. If you have difficulty tracing an ancestor or need help as to where to look for info - we will try to help
In return - we ask that you tell us what you already know about them and what census info you already have. There's nothing more frustrating than spending a lot of time tracing someone only to find the poster already has that info. We also ask that you tell us clearly what it is you need help with.
It is helpful if you set out the details in a logical sequence so they are easily understood - saves us having to come back to you for clarification. If you look at your opening post - it tells us very little about exactly what info you are looking for.
I haven't been able to find any info about Knossingham. Can someone help pls?
I'd imagined it might be a place where lots of "local people help out people who discover they have familial roots".
If by this you mean people who share the same FH - then you need to post the surnames you are researching on the various Surname Interests boards. RC is linked to Google so if somebody is researching one of your surnames and uses Google - your post will be picked up
Whilst the cost of certificates is not cheap @ £9.25 per time - they can often help to advance your FH. It is usually unneccesary to purchase "hundreds" given the amount of info now available online and via locally produced transcriptions
In this case - you are stuck because you don't have proof of Sarah's maiden name so are unable to find a marriage. Emma's birth cert will provide that info.
You keep referring to George as George Joseph - he has no middle name on any census entry and I asked in my reply above where you found his middle name from? That type of info is important as it can often help eliminate other George Rawlings entries found in any search
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Have read both threads and followed back via census/bmd records and you seem to have made some incorrect assumptions.
Williams wife Mary in Yorkshire was actually shown as Mary J. (and was in fact a Mary Jane) bc.1838 Laxton, Northamptonshire.
The William who married Mary Ann Woods is not your man. He appears on his own in 1871 although shown as married but is with her again in 1881 in Rutland when your William and Mary J. are in Yorkshire!
It would appear that your William was married twice.
William Rawlings/Charlotte Sharpe Dec.qtr.1859 Oakham, Rutland.
1861 Census they are in Oakham Deanshold with the William whose birth you are seeking - he is aged 7 mos. on the census - ref.RG9 - 2306 - 81 - 3. His birth reg'd Sept.qtr.1860 Oakham.
His second child in Rutland was Rosetta birth reg'd Sept.qtr.1862 Oakham.
Mother Charlotte appears to have died - death entry Dec.qtr.1863 Oakham.
William remarries in Yorkshire:
William Rawlings/Mary Jane Charity Dec.qtr.1865 Thorne regn. district, Yorkshire.
As you know, in Yorkshire 1871 with his 2 elder children listed above.
Checking back on census in 1841 a Mary Charity in Laxton, Northamptonshire with parents - Edward and Catherine - ref. HO107 - 797 - 13 - 3 - 6.
There's a public tree online which I tend to agree with which states William bc.1836 Braunston, son of a Joseph Rawlings (1811-1845) and wife Mary Ann. Unfortunately, the submitter of the tree has not investigated the marriages and only shows wive's Christian names although they have made the same conclusion as myself in that William was married twice i.e. 1st to a Charlotte and 2nd to a Mary Jane.
I can't check to see if marriages are on familysearch as cannot get it to work right now - just says 'loading' and freezes.
So, at this point in time, it would appear that the George you mention is not William's father at all.
Your William is consistent in that his birthplace is Braunston, Rutland (not Stapleford, Leicestershire) and his birth ca.1835-1836. Without a copy of either of his marriage certificates one cannot confirm who his father was but it certainly looks like it was a Joseph married to a Mary Ann. Family were living in Rotten Row, Oakham in 1841 and 1851 (Mary a widow by then).
As pointed out by CaroleW it is easy to start going down the wrong path without some kind of substantiation and your interpretation of things in this case definitely seems to be wrong i.e. your William not married to Mary Ann Woods (this another couple), not born in Leicestershire and son of a George, and actually married twice, first to Charlotte Sharpe and then to Mary Jane (not a Mary Ann) Charity.
Annette
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Looking at early census again, I don't think that Joseph and Mary Ann were William's parents - that William is shown as born in Oakham itself, not Braunston.
However, I don't think you'll be happy with what I have found.
1851 Census - Edith Weston, Rutland - ref. HO107 - 2092 - 186 - 16
Mary Ann Ablett W. 34 Pauper B. Braunston
William Rawlings son 14 Illegitimate b. Braunston
Rudkin Ablett son 6 b.Edith Weston
Ruth Ablett dau. 3 b. Edith Weston
Found Mary and William in 1841 but he is listed as Ablett:
1841 Census - Edith Weston, Rutland - ref. HO107 - 896 - 2 - 9 - 15
Edward Ablett 65
Ann Ablett 70
Rudkin Ablett 25
Mary Ablett 20
William Ablett 4
James Perry 1
So looks now as if William Rawlings was the illegitimate son of a Mary Ann Rawlings who married a Rudkin Ablett sometime after his birth. Rudkin Ablett death recorded Dec.qtr.1847 Oakham.
Details from one of William's marriage certificates even more important now - if no father shown then would confirm the above.
Annette
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Thank you so much for these replies.
And Carole - can I just clarify ....are you saying that all of the english BMD > 1837 is online at FindMyPast? So that in other words if I cannot find something it is because I may need more advanced 'finding skills'?
I do find it hard untangling Census info at times - being that I find people who are obviously the same person as on a previous Census with a different name or year of birth or birthplace etc.
Going away for the weekend now - so will get back to digesting this info when I get back.
Meanwhile - thanks to both of you.
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can I just clarify ....are you saying that all of the english BMD > 1837 is online at FindMyPast? So that in other words if I cannot find something it is because I may need more advanced 'finding skills'?
More unusual surnames sometimes require a bit of "creative thinking" if you can't find them on first attempt
I don't use FindMyPast but it probably works the same way as Ancestry in that you can use "wildcard" searches (eg) I may be looking for James Berryman born in Liverpool Lancashire 1860
I can't find him under that profile
So I try as follows:
james berr*man - still no luck
james ber**man - still can't find him
james b*rryman - and find him as Barryman
If I couldn't have found him that way - I would have searched on James b Liverpool 1860 +-2yrs and scrolled through the results
It's a question of trial and error and eventually you get used to thinking outside the box
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Hi Jaadha
Welcome to rootchat.
Many of my lines are Rutland and Leicester based. Knossington is bordering Rutland/Leicester so you may find both are mentioned at times, my great grandparents both born in villages in Rutland, lived in Braunstone and move and lived in Knossington all their lives.
These will give you details about Knossington
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=22058
http://www.leicestershirevillages.com/knossington/
and a map which may help you get your bearings where it is and village's around
http://www.maplandia.com/united-kingdom/england/east-midlands/rutland/knossington/
It is never easy looking at records elsewhere than what you are used to, I feel the same when 'one of mine' move to a county I don't know so well.
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HI.
On the Northants Baptism Indexes is Mary Charity's.
Laxton C of E [BT Entry]
29-Apr 1838
Mary CHARITY to Edward & Catharine of Laxton labourer
Sandy
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I am hugely impressed by the amount of information some very skilled and helpful posters have given on this enquiry.
Like others I have relatives who lived in the small village of Knossington which is in Leicestershire but most of their BMD records were registered in Oakham, the nearest town, but which happens to be over the border in the county of Rutland.
There is also a reference to "Braunstone" above which might cause confusion because of the final 'e'. There is a village called Braunston in Rutland which is south-west of Oakham and quite close to Knossington as well. However, there is also a place called Braunstone on the edge of Leicester which is 15-20 miles away. Another Braunston (again without a final 'e') can be found in the adjacent county of Northamptonshire. So if you were searching for the Rutland village you need to omit the 'e' at the end.
cheers
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Thank you for your replies.
Annette - I cannot find a birth entry for William born bet 1834 - 1836 in the Parish records on FindMyPast, FreeGen or on Family Search. Does this perhaps point even more to his birth being illegitimate (hence hidden)?
I did however find something else confusing on the LDS site - I found a marriage entry for William and Mary Jane Charity - in LINCOLNSHIRE!! ( "England Marriages, 1538–1973 ," index, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NXQ7-SRT : accessed 21 May 2013), Edward Charity in entry for William Rawlings and Mary Jane Charity, 1865).
AND - on this record he is listed a born in 1835 - despite on the 1881 Census being listed as being born 1834 and on both the 1861 and 1871 Census being born in 1836. Hmm.
Does it ever happen that people may get married in Church then later go to register the marriage at the GRO - in a different location?
Things can be so confusing!!
Jaahda :-)
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LDS website although helpful is a mixture of collected/donated data and records ( those with images) and doesn't consistantly cover an area, so lots of missed completely and the link you are looking at is IGI which is collected/donated not a record, many I have found are spurious information........ to make sure you need to look in the parish record books.
In Rutland alone you will find 'Charity's' and lots of them living in Empingham, Greetham and Stamford ( Lincs) and that is only from my own branch line research.
Have you checked the 1841 census to see if where the family is and if they were born 'in county' or not ??? The the 1851 to find out where they were born.
As for illegitimatacy, either the women was sent away to stay with family elsewhere or like many stayed in the village and almost certainly at that time the child was baptised and it will show in the PRs either the fathers name if known or base born, if the father took responsibility or the family/mother worked and didn't ask for parish releif, if she did then you are looking at Poor law records and bastardy bonds.
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Poor law records or bastardry bonds? How do I access those?
I did manage to find Mary Jane's family on the 1841 Census and one of the problems I am finding with these Rutland people is that they seem to often cross the border to get married etc LOL. I always have my google maps and genuki by my side - though nothing is as good as a local geographic knowledge - which of course I don't have.
Thanks for your information and help,
Jaahda
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Poor law records or bastardry bonds? How do I access those?
I did manage to find Mary Jane's family on the 1841 Census and one of the problems I am finding with these Rutland people is that they seem to often cross the border to get married etc LOL. I always have my google maps and genuki by my side - though nothing is as good as a local geographic knowledge - which of course I don't have.
Thanks for your information and help,
Jaahda
I can't find any Rutland/Leicester Bastardy bonds online but this explains about them
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/LIN/poorbastard.html
Rutland is the smallest county and not only did people move but boundaries/registration districts too and I do agree with you it is difficult if you don't have local knowledge, but that is where rootschat can be so good, others do and many will help as it is local knowledge that often breaks down those walls....keep chipping away you will break it down ;D
I know Leicester/Rutland it was my home, although not now or I would be off to Wigston for you to find the records ... along with loads that I need, now I am no longer there ::)