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Research in Other Countries => Canada => Topic started by: dathai on Wednesday 29 May 13 11:40 BST (UK)
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hi all, i am married to a Pacelli in Dublin , my wifes great grandparents were Vincent Pacelli and Mary Rose Savino, according to the irish censuses of 1901/1911 they spent 10 years at least in ireland and probably 10 before that in Midlothian ,Scotland where their daughter Maria Antonia married a Rizza. on the 1911 census of dublin Vincent and Mary Rose say they had five children i can only account for three of them Francis born 1868 Marsicovetere Italy ,Joseph [giuseppe] born about 1870 and Maria Antonia born about 1875.Francis and Joseph stayed in Ireland and reared families here,Joseph died in dublin 1912 and Vincent and Mary Rose went back to their daughter in Scotland and then emigrated in 1913 from Scotland aboard The Grampian to Canada where it is most likely they died as they were in their 70s when emigrating would like to know their burial places if possible, while browsing the Ontario deaths on family search.org i found a death for Benedetto Angelo wife of Guy Gaetano Angelo on 1st aug 1933 at Brantford Ontario which gives her parents as Vincent Pacelli and Mary Sevino i am wondering is this one of the missing siblings any info on this much appreciated. A more consise family tree can be found on this blog ''Family Roots /Love Louisa.
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For reference here are the 1901 and 1911 census links-
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/Trinity/Brunswick_St__Great__Part_/1309640
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Trinity_Ward/Brunswick_Street__Great_/88615
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Hi Dathai
To start the ball rolling :)
DEATH: Registered Toronto, York County, Ontario
Vincent PACELLI, died 16 Apr 1914, age 79,
Born Italy, married, occ: Labourer
Died at 153 Manering Avenue
Neither of his parents are named on the Death registration
Informant: J RYAN of 37 Arthur Street (no relationship stated but his/her address is on the same road but different number, to the physician.)
DEATH: Registered Toronto, York County, Ontario
Maria Rosa PACELLA, died 12 Feb 1918 age 80
Born Italy, widowed,
Died at: 173 Mannering Avenue
Place of Burial: Mt Hope
Neither of her parents are named on the Death registration
Informant: Ryan & Son, Dundas St West
DEATH: Registered Brantford Twp, Brant Cty, Ontario
*Benedetta ANGELO died 1 Aug 1933, age 71,
Born Italy on 24th Jan, married, occ: house duties
Died at her home address, 91 Strathcoma Avenue,
Had lived in Ontario 21 years, all at her stated place of residence
(Did not state how long she had been in Canada)
Father: Vincent PACELLI
Mother: Mary SEVINO
Informant: Guy Gaetano Angelo, husband of same address
Buried St Joseph;'s Cemetery on 3rd August
[*Her name was registered as Benedetta - the female form is -a at the end, (-o is male) ]
What a shame neither Vincent or Maria Rosa's parents are named on the death records :(
I do think on the names alone, Benedetta belongs - she'd be the eldest to date - will see if we can find her coming into Canada!
Cheers
AMBLY
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If their ages at death are correct, it looks to me as if they shaved at least a decade each of their ages when they travelled to Canada....
TRAVEL 1913: SS "Grampian" arrives Quebec 2 Jun 1913 out of Glasgow.
Vincent (67) and Maria R (65) PACELLI, Italian Birth & race
Going to Toronto, Ontario to join daughter
Have never been to Canada before
... but their ages in the 1891 Census is more in keeping with the Travel ages:
1891: 79 Grassmarket, New GreyFriars, Edinburgh
Head: Vincent PACELLI 53, Musician, b Italy
Wife: Maria Rosa PACELLI 45, b Italy
Dau: Maria Antonia PACELLI 16, b Italy
Cheers
AMBLY
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thank you Aghadowey for the link to census. well Ambly what can i say i was'nt expecting that quick a response and thats a great bit of info you've posted there between the death certs and immigration record. There is a large extended family from Francis and Joseph in Dublin and now extended across the world who will be delighted with this info. I happened to get Vincent and Mary Rose parents from a lovely lady by the name of Judy Cavallo who is descended or married into Maria Antonia's Rizza family[husbands name Michaelangelo Rizza] Judy happens to have a family bible belong to her husband and she posted the names on Louisa's blog for us,Vincents parents Guiseppe Rosario Pacelli and Benedetta Marino, Mary Roses were Francisco Savino and Yolanda Frantonia thats as far as ive got other than the address for Francis birthplace in 1868 from a travel document in 1919 coming back from Canada possibly from his mothers burial? many thanks for your time and effort much appreciated Dathai.
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Hi
You're most welcome! A little more for you:
Benedetta and Gaetano/Geatona ("Guy) ANGELO, lost a son in WW1.
He was Louis Aloysius Angelo, age 21
His Address in Canada when attesting on 30 Jan 1916, age 18 & 1 mth.: 87 Strathcoma Ave.
He was born in Edinburgh, 30 Dec 1897
he identified himself as Presbyterian .
http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/databases/cef/index-e.html
http://www.canadiangreatwarproject.com/searches/soldierDetail.asp?Id=13248
There is a marriage 1884, Midlothian for a male ANGELO and a female PACELLO ( actually there are 2 showing up, on Scotland People, exactly the same). Can't bring the forenames up - not sure they've been indexed ???
Couldn't find a birth for Louis Aloysius ANGELO indexed in Scotlands People - but there is a birth of Luigi ANTONELLI, 1898 in St Giles, Midlothian - see below:
They are in 1891 Census Scotland as "Antonelli" :
89 Wardens Close, GreyFriars, Edinburgh St Giles, Midlothian
Head: Gaotams ANTONELLI 29, Musician, b Italy
Wife: Benedetta ANTONELLI 29, b Italy
Son: Michaelangelo ANTONELLI 6, b Edinburgh
Dau: Maria ANTONELLi 4 yrs, 4mths, b Edinburgh
Dau: Augerno ANTONELLI 2˝ years, b Edinburgh
Son: Saverio ANTONELLI 6mths, b Edinburgh
and in 1901:
89 Grassmarket, GreyFriars, Edinburgh St Giles, Midlothian
Head: Gaetano ANTONELLI 38, Organ Grinder Ice cream Vendor, b Italy, Italian Subject
Wife: Benedetta ANTONELLI 38, b Italy, Italian Subject
Son: Michel Angelo ANTONELLI 16, Violin Player, b Edinburgh
Dau: Maria ANTONELLI 14, Organ Grinder, b Edinburgh
Dau: Teresa ANTONELLI 9, scholar, b Edinburgh
Son: Savcrio ANTONELLI 6, scholar, b Edinburgh
Son: Luigi ANTONELLI 3, b Edinburgh (this will be Louis Aloyisius?)
Dau: Eugenia ANTONELLI 3mths, b Edinburgh
Cheers
AMBLY
Edit: Saverio (sp) is a son, not a dau! He was called Sammy, when he immigrated to Canada (see next).
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And a bit more ;D
TRAVEL: Steerage, SS "Ionian", arrived 30 May 1911, Quebec, out of Glasgow
Gaetano ANTONELLI 48, b Italy, Labourer, Going to son, Hotel Porter
Sammy ANTONELLI 16,b Scotland, Barber, Going to brother, Hotel Porter
Destination: Brantford Ontario
Occupations: as in Scotland & intended in Canada
Religion: Roman Catholic
TRAVEL: Steerage, SS "Scandanavian" arrived 29 Sep 1912 Montreal, out of Glasgow
Benedetta ANTONELLI 50, married, b Italy, going to join Husband, Housewife
Teresa ANTONELLI 19, single, b Scotland, Domestic,
Louis ANTONELLI 14, b Scotland, Bakers Asst,
Jenny ANTONELLI 11, b Scotland
Joseph ANTONELLI 3 wks, b Scotland
Destination: Brantford, Ontario
Occupations: as in Scotland & intended in Canada
Religion: Roman Catholic
Cheers
AMBLY
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I am starting to fall over backwards reeling from the shock of all this info, i never expected this ,i would say the antonelli's are probly the same angelos due to the grassmarket connection, strange thing on louisas blog she mentions that 2 or 3 of Maria Antonias sons died in that war [Rizza] gave me the impression that they may have falsified their ages. judging by what you said about Benedetta being in ontario for 21 years could possibly give her an immigration date of 1912 as Vincent said he was going to his daughters residence. thanks again.
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And here just a wee bit more: ;D
This resource is great, but doesn't give dates unfortunately:
http://ocfa.islandnet.com/ocfa-search.php
Guedano ANTONELLI (husband of Benedetta PAGELLI) buried St Joseph's Cemetery, Brantford, Brant, Ontario,
Also in same Cemetery:
Benedetta PAGELLI, wife of Geudano ANTONELLI
Mary ANTONELLI wife of Nicholas ANDRETTA
Michael A ANTONELLI
Teresa Marie ANTONELLI, wife of Geatano TORTI
Cheers
AMBLY
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Hi,
Yes I agree ;D, it definitely looks as if the ANTONELLI are the ANGELOs (or vice-versa) - no clues as to why they seemed to have become ANGELO in Canada (though again, it looks as if their marriage is under ANGELO in Scotland).
And I would say "Sammy" is probably named after his maternal nonna, Maria Rosa SEVINO (the 1891 & 1901 Census actuals, may show the spelling I put up above is wrong).
Cheers
AMBLY
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Ambly could i be cheeky enough to ask you to look up a marriage for Francis Pacelli and Mary Doyle on Scotlands people i have never been able to find their marriage in ireland, their eldest daughter Mary Rose was born in dublin 1892 took me years to find her birth wrongly registered as Mary Rosina Priscilli but changed by statuary declaration when she was 70 most likely when applying for pension. also cant find birth of Nora/norah/hanorah pacelli baptised in Lauriston Scotland about 1895 daughter of joseph pacelli and mary mahoney/mahony says on census born dublin but not on birth index.
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Hi
Sure, happy to - I'll have a look and see if I can find anything on the SP index ;D
Meantime:
MARRIAGE: 19 Oct 1912, Brantford, Brant, Onatrio
Teresa ANTONELLI , age 20, spinster, b Scotland
Father: Gaetano ANTONELLI (is also witness1)
Mother: Benedetta PATCHELLI (is also witness2)
and
Gaetano TORTI (or Torti GAETANO - he's written as both, signs as the former)
Age 36, bachelor, b Italy
Father: Antonio GAETANO
Mother: Catherine REA?
And here:
http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~maryc/brant1926.htm
Marriage of a widowed daughter Maria Carmel PINGHERO to Nicholas ANDRIETTI,
Cheers
AMBLY
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Got a half result!
MARRIAGE INDEX SP:
There are 40 marriages for a Mar* DOYLE in Scotland 1885 to 1896
None are to a male with a surname beginning PA* or with a forename beginning Fra*
There are 0 marriages of a DOYLE female to a: PA* or to a Fra* PA*
There are 0 marriages of a male: forename: Fra* Surname: P*C*LI
There are 34 marriages of a male surname : P*C*LI
None are to a female DOYLE or to a Mar* DOYLE or *DOYLE
BIRTH INDEX SP:
Nora PACELLI
Registered St Giles, Midlothian, 1895
Cheers
AMBLY
Off for some Zzzzzz 8) Will check in tomorrow to see how it's going!
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once again many thanks for your trogan efforts Ambly this is going great thanks to you,could'nt ask for more beyond my wildest expectations, family links that no one knew about. just one little fly in the ointment but not down to you,most likely a mistranscription, on the steerage for 1912 aboard scandanavian Joseph Antonelli aged 3 weeks born 1912 nearly a year and a half after his father emigrated ?
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Hi dathai
Ah yes...wee Joseph ;)
Benedetta is 50, husband been gone well over a year…..
The manifest does list the children travelling with her in order of age - but it doesn't indicate the children's relationship to her (or to the husband to whom she is going).
There are two manifests - one prepared by the departing port, the other for the arrival.
On the former (Benedetta is listed Mrs B ANTONELLI), Joseph is listed as 3/12 (3 months old.
On the latter, he's definitely listed as 3 weeks old.
My first instinct is to look at the 19 year old daughter as the mother....
SP has one birth registered of only one Joseph ANTONELLI in 1912, and it's in St Giles, Midlothian (and there are no births that year in all Midlothian where there is a forename containing *epp* (for Giuseppi)).
Cheers
AMBLY
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If nothing else this is an excerise in showing a) the difficulty in finding records with the Italian names being mangled, mis-heard, mis-transcribed etc and b) the great functionality of SP's search engine with it's * wildcard ;D
There is a marriage in Midlothian, 1884 (but not in St Giles) of:
Groom: Cartano ANTONELL
Bride: Benedetta PACEL
The only name spelled correctly is her forename :)
Cheers
AMBLY
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Well Ambly, thanks again i got a lot more than i bargained for, there is not a lot more to be found on the Pacelli's after what you;ve given me,about the only thing left is when did they emigrate from italy, did they come to Dublin first or Scotland. Another tie in with the Scottish clan is that both Francis and Joseph ran ice cream parlours in Dublin as did Maria Antonia in Scotland. Yesterday Wednesday 29th may was national Fish and Chip day here in Ireland, and there was a little story in The Evening Herald about Giuseppe Cervi [a great friend of the Pacelli's] disembarking at Queenstown in the 1880s by mistake while on his way to America he is credited with opening the first fish and chipper in Dublin and as far as i know he took over the lease on Josephs premises when he died in 1912 at Great Brunswick st now Pearse st. well thanks again for every thing i think you should get another little gold star over your name for all your hard work, best regards Dathai.
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Doing a search on Scotlands People Teresa Antonelli was Born 1884 in Midlothian (St George), Think someone was telling fibs when they married (age 28).
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Nora Pacelli born Edinburgh St Giles, 1895.
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good spot mark i presume you mean 1884 for Teresa thanks.Dathai
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Yes sorry. i've corrected it :-)
Sorry Just noticed Noras Birth Had been found.
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Hello distant relatives,
I have come down the line from the missing daughter of Vincent and Maria Rosa Pacelli.
Her name is Teresa and was born approx 1864, married Joseph DiAngelo 18th Dec 1883/4
in Edinburgh (spelt as Paciello). She is living next door to her sister Benedetta Antonelli on 1901 census (spelt as Dangelo), all being organ grinders and icecream sellers. Husband Joseph died in 1909, and she remarried in 1916, again naming Vincent and Maria Rosa as her parents, as does her death certificate 1939, spelt as Paicelli. Her daughter Eugenia D'angelo is my grandmother whom unfortunately I never got to meet, and until recently, the family still lived in the Grassmarket area. I have various certificates, which I am willing to share via email, but not much handed down info. It has been good to fill in the gaps, I had no idea my GGGrandparents went off to Canada or which part of Italy they originated from.
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Hi Dial999
and welcome,its great to fill in the missing link at last and have a name Teresa that has been handed down in the family for generations i was wondering where it came from. Have you read Louisa's blog yet you can find it by googling Vincent Pacelli and Maria Rosa Sevino.
Cheers
Dathai.
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Thanks, Dathai.
I have looked at Louisa's blog, sent a message and recorded all the new info. I'll be in Edinburgh in June and will visit Church of the Sacred Heart to see the family entries in person. If anyone wants any photos of anything whilst I'm there, let me know. My own family still live in Edinburgh, I live in Australia, so haven't the Pacelli's travelled far and wide!
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Maria + Michelangelo Rizza, had twin son, both was killed in action
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Just found this marriage today
Catherine Rizza was born in 1902 in Scotland to MichaelAngelo Rizza and Maria Antonia Pacelli
on her marriage cert she names her mother as Mary Saveino which was her grandmothers name
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QKM5-NFSV
her husband was Ernest Edward Hicks born Sussex,England
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/2:2:37LQ-YPT
Kate appears to have died in Toronto in Dec 1923 age 21 with wrong fathers name but right mothers name this time
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JX9X-D4L
did she die in childbirth
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It's said that Michaelangelo had about 17 children to many women..he had brothers - Angelo A Rizza who married Catherine Luciano [nee Powell] 1892, Angelo died 1899, then Catherine married brother Bernardo Rizza 1900..Catherine, 1st husband Andria Loucino was stab to death, at her sister wedding party..
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Just linking this topic which gives exact location of Maria Antonia Pacelli's birth and baptism.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=768514.0