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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: dpaton on Thursday 30 May 13 15:29 BST (UK)
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I am trying to find any information on Charles Jones who married Margaret Tallentire in Sydney in about 1846. They had a daughter called Annie Elizabeth Jones, but I have been unable to find her birth record. I know she married Hiram Emery Pierce in 1866 and they went to New Zealand and then came back to Sydney and settled in Balmain. Charles Jones must have died before 1866 as on Annie's marriage notice he is listed as the late Charles Jones and also Margaret apparently married a Thomas Lowe when the family moved to Wellington NZ. She must have come back with Annie and Hiram as she dies in Balmain. Any help in finding out any more especially who Charles Jones was and who his parents were would be greatly appreciated.
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The marriage is on family search org
a good starting point,
St Phillip Sydney
25th JMay 1846
Charles Richard Jones,
Margaret Tallentire
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Hi,
This looks a good possibility,
Baptism
Ann Elizabeth JONES
DOB: 23 Aug 1849
Christening: 30 Sep 1849
St. Philip, Sydney, New South Wales, Australia
Father: Charles Richard JONES
Mother: Margaret
also an older brother,
Baptism
George Richard JONES
DOB: 06 Dec 1847
Christening: 30 Jan 1848
St.Philips, Sydney, New South Wales, Australia
Father: Charles Richard JONES
Mother: Margaret
Regards,
Daisy
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Possible baptism/birth
Margaret Tallentire
daughter of George and Ann
1826 Sydney New South Wales
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Can you access Australian orphan records
Charles Jones aged 9 and brother John aged 11,
mother Mary admitted,1st Jan 1833
mothers abode given as Parrametta
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Possible baptism/birth
Margaret Tallentire
daughter of George and Ann
1826 Sydney New South Wales
George Tallentire was a convict.
Arrived per Batavia in April 1818 . Ship’s Master Lamb. He was from York and was sentenced to life.
He and wife Ann had other children.
Sue
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There is a possibility that Charles Richard Jones was the son of Charles Jones who died 1815. His parents were Edward and Ann. Ref # V1815998 148/1815
The fact that his parents names are listed on his DC tells me he most likely was not a convict, it is rare to find parents names listed on convict deaths. (someone will probably disagree with me) ::)
Now this may be too early for yours, but a possibilty. The Orphan Charles is a good one too.
George Tallentire died 1844 aged 57. Ref # V184447 29/1844
Neil
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Just posting the marriage notice for reference
The Sydney Morning Herald
Saturday 21 April 1866
PIERCE—JONES—March 20th, at the Scots Church, by the Rev. Dr. Lang, M.P., Mr. Hiram Emery Pierce, mariner, a native of Baltimore, United States, to Annie Elizabeth, daughter of the late Mr. Charles Jones, Kent-street, Sydney, a native of the colony.
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The NZ marriage-
Yr1866 REG 6589 Margaret Janes (sic)
To Thomas Lowe
Sue
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The fact that his parents names are listed on his DC tells me he most likely was not a convict, it is rare to find parents names listed on convict deaths. (someone will probably disagree with me) ::)
Neil
Er, that would be me. ;D The parents' names are there because the entry is a baptism, not a burial. You won't find parents' names on pre 1856 burials because there was no such field in the church registers.
Charles Richard JONES appears on the electoral roll 1848-49, 1849-50, 1850-51 at Clarence Street. Nothing more before or after that, and Kent Street was also in the same Ward. There was also a James JONES in Clarence Street in 1849-50.
Debra :)
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Funeral notice for Margaret Lowe
Thursday 21 August 1913
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/15444217?searchTerm=%22margaret%20lowe%22&searchLimits=exactPhrase=margaret+lowe
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There are 21 death indexes for the name Charles Jones between the years 1849 and 1866.
Trying to find the death for the right one isnt going to be easy. I cant find a death notice that fits in with the family.
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Oh you would have to Sue >:( ;D DOH, what was I thinking :-[ :-[ :-[
Neil ;)
I will chuck an Eddie, I was tired and it was too early in the morning and I am sorry :'(
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Funeral notice for Margaret Lowe
Thursday 21 August 1913
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/15444217?searchTerm=%22margaret%20lowe%22&searchLimits=exactPhrase=margaret+lowe
She is at ROOKWOOD, but I do not see THOMAS there.
Lowe, Margaret 67 05/06/1913 Location SEC*M2*E**1039Sue
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Sydney Assessment Books
http://www3.photosau.com/CosRates/scripts/home.asp
1848
720 King Street
Person Rated: Charles R Jones
Owner or Landlord: William Wainwright
Shop
Debra :)
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WHOOPS
Error on my part
This is completely wrong MARGARET LOWE named in the Burial at Rookwood.
Will strike through .
Sue
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Going back to those Orphan school records there appears to be a Charles Jones admitted age 9 in 1819 then in 1826 at age 16 his mother (Mary Day) petitions for his return.
Her name was Mary Jones and then in 1820 she Marries a Joseph Day. It fits with my earlier Referance to the death of a Charles Jones in 1815.
From the records.
JONES Charles 16 yrs 13/12/1826 Petitioner: DAY, Mary. Parent or guardian requesting child be returned to their custody
Neil
ooo, ooo, oo Sue made a BOO BOO tooo. ::) ;D
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Hi Neil,
I am not quite sure about what you are saying in reply #12.
I did not make any comment or correction to anything you have said.
Neil
ooo, ooo, oo Sue made a BOO BOO tooo. ::) ;D
Yes, I do indeed make them frequently alas.
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I meant I made a BOO BOO too as I nearly always do. ::) But thats me, you dont make em as often as I do 8)
You must know what chucking an Eddie is, it's been all over the news. It was too early in the morning and stuff. :-X
Neil ;)
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Do you have apprentice indentures in Australia,was he a tailor,
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Don't at this time know if he was a Tailor, what gives you this indication. We certainly had apprenticship indentures. Mine is floating about in a drawer somewhere. Apprentices and Masters were held even more so in the 19th century and have gradually been reduced here in favour of traineeships. Where a Trainee can do a section of Trade before employment and as little as 12mths on the job work.
Neil
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I think Radcliff is asking whether our 19th century apprenticeship indenture books have been kept as they were in England, and unfortunately the answer is 'no'. A bit of a tragedy really. The only ones that exist are those specifically for children from the orphan school for the years 1822-33. They do not exist for all of the children, but where they do, they are indexed along with the Orphan School records. (NRS 798, Indentures of Apprenticeship 1822-33, [4/390] Reel 1484)
This entry from NSW State Records indexes...
JONES, Charles
16 yrs
13/12/1826
Petitioner: DAY, Mary. Parent or guardian requesting child be returned to their custody
NRS 783 [1]; Reel 2776, Page 157-158
...states that Charles JONES has been employed for some time in the capacity of a Tailor. Mary is asking for him to be assigned to her as she knows a respectable man who is willing to offer him an apprenticeship.
Debra :)
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Er, that would be me. ;D The parents' names are there because the entry is a baptism, not a burial. You won't find parents' names on pre 1856 burials because there was no such field in the church registers.
Debra :)
Neil, that was me, not Sue 8)
It fits with my earlier Referance to the death of a Charles Jones in 1815.
Neil
It was a BAPTISM for Charles JONES in 1815 8)
The Charles we are talking about was born c1810 and his mother is Mary.
All of this may be way off track anyway, we need to find what Charles Richard JONES' occupation was.
Debra :)
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JONES, Charles
20/06/1828
Petitioner: BOOTH, Joseph. Prospective employer wanting apprentice
NRS 783 [1]; Reel 2776, Page 381-382
The 1828 census shows Charles in the household of Joseph BOOTH, a Tailor
Charles JONES, CF (came free), Ship 'Friendship', 1813.
The 'Friendship' actually arrived in 1818.
Debra :)
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Struth, I am making mistakes :-[ Too much on my plate this week, thats my excuse....
Good find Debra. If Charles Richard Jones had some work as a Tailor then he is our man, if not he's not.
Is that right ::)
Neil :P :-[
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we need to find what Charles Richard JONES' occupation was.
Deb
I know from 1856 Groom's occupation was supposed to be listed on the certificate, but I do not know about the earlier Church Records.
Would a transcription of the marriage certificate reveal much?
Reg V1846634 31/ Yr 1846 JONES CHARLES R
To TALLENTIRE MARGARET
CA
Reg V1846634 31C/ Yr 1846 JONES CHARLES R
To TALLENTIRE MARGARET
CA
It seems to me there are not many ways forward with this at the moment.
Sue
PS Thanks, Deb for clarifying the recent posts for Neil ;D
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The Early Church Records (the "V" series at NSW BDM) will not usually provide profession or rank for marriages. HOWEVER, if the marriage was C of E, then perhaps there's the Family Register to search for....
At RChat's NSW Resources Board there's links to examples of Family Registers held by the C of E Cathedral in Newcastle NSW (Christ Church Cathedral). These are typical of what C of E clergy records were kept (that way the Rev'd did not have to rely on his memory)
Cheers, JM
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https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTCR-BY2
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTZV-BXW
It is NOT likely that the profession/rank of either the bride or the groom would be recorded on the parish register in 1846. BUT their status would be recorded….. Bachelor/Widow or Spinster/Widow. If either were still legally “infant” ie not yet 21 years of age, and thus NOT yet legally able to give themselves consent to enter into any contract ….. then the clergy would record the name and relationship of the person/s giving consent. (not just the bride, but the groom …. Whichever one was not yet 21 needed consent ….. provided of course that they actually knew they were not yet 21 years of age ….. Please remember that not everyone actually knew they own date of birth, as the significant first event in their life was their baptism…..
I have had a quick look at a scanned copy of a document about 4 ft long and about 8 inches high. It is the bride’s certificate issued. (C of E Marriage in the Hawkesbury district, dated 1840s) …. The occupation is NOT noted for either. Bride was a spinster, “of this parish” and Groom was a Bachelor “of Redfern”. The age of the groom is noted as 25 and is immediately to the left of his signature. The age of the bride is noted as 23 and it too is to the left of her signature.
I think you will find that the marriage for Charles JONES was NOT celebrated at St Phillips, but that the Clergy conducting the ceremony TRANSMITTED the record to St Phillips C of E…. (St Phillips being where the Principal of the NSW Chaplains were usually posted)
Cheers, JM
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This might have nothing to do with our Mr CR Jones but this from the Orpan school books. May lead to somewhere ???
40. Name: Charles Jones
Age: 9
When admitted: 1 Jany 1819
Time of quitting the school: 19 July 1828
Parents’ names: Mary Jones
Occupation: Sempstress
Residence: Macquarie St ParramattaRemarks: to Mr Booth parramatta
Neil
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Mary Day (writing from Parramatta) applied for a nearly 17 year old, her son, Charles JONES to be released from Orphan School in Dec 1826 ;D
"he has been employed in the capacity of a tailor and it is now my intention to apprentice him...."
Cheers, JM
NSW SRO currently has a partnership with Ancestry re various records, including
New South Wales, Australia, Applications and Admissions to Orphan Schools, 1817-1833
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I thought it was 1826, but the Orphan school record say's 1828 and I imagine it was after his apprenticship was completed and he had paid his time.
It also states that he (Charles) went to Mr Booth at Parramatta not to Mary ::)
Neil
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No Neil, there's quite a number of entries on the NSW SRO index.... The one I have mentioned is separate from your sighting...
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Mary DAY had two children in the Male Orphanage
"DAY, Mary 1822 Nov 22 Petition to have her two boys removed from Male Orphan Institution rejected ...."As per Col Sec Index 1788 -1825
http://colsec.records.nsw.gov.au/indexes/colsec/default.htm
So if this is the 'right' family, then perhaps Charles had a brother (either surnamed JONES or DAY) ....
Cheers, JM
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He had a brother John Jones went in same time but was released earlier?
Neil ::)
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This where I got the information from.
http://www.sl.nsw.gov.au/discover_collections/history_nation/religion/charity/rollbook/Male_orphan_school.html
Neil
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Wow Neil, cool link, I like the page turning thingo, sound effects and all! ;D
The children's baptisms should provide an occupation. The second last column in the register is "Quality or Profession". I am already curious enough to know why those baptisms and many others from the time period are missing from the online indexes, so I might try to find time next week to have a wrestle with the microfilm and see what is going on.
His occupation should also be on his daughter's marriage cert, though sometimes it isn't if they are deceased.
Debra :)
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If the Charles Jones who married Margaret Tallentire in 1846 was 25 then he can't be the same Charles Jones who was at the Boys Orphan School as he would be 36 at the time of his marriage not 25. The Charles R Jones who married in 1846 must have been born around 1821, but to who?
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May I please ask where we find that Charles was aged 25 when he married in 1846
If the Charles Jones who married Margaret Tallentire in 1846 was 25 then he can't be the same Charles Jones who was at the Boys Orphan School as he would be 36 at the time of his marriage not 25. The Charles R Jones who married in 1846 must have been born around 1821, but to who?
Cheers, JM
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I wonder whether the OP (dpaton) has thought the random sample document you described, MJ was in fact that of the target couple?
Sue
Adding.
Anyhow, we can hope that the information we have found to date has been of help and interest.
in the search ;D
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Agh, good point there Sue,
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTCR-BY2
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTZV-BXW
........
I have had a quick look at a scanned copy of a document about 4 ft long and about 8 inches high. It is the bride’s certificate issued. (C of E Marriage in the Hawkesbury district, dated 1840s) …. The occupation is NOT noted for either. Bride was a spinster, “of this parish” and Groom was a Bachelor “of Redfern”. The age of the groom is noted as 25 and is immediately to the left of his signature. The age of the bride is noted as 23 and it too is to the left of her signature.
May I please apologise to our OP, I often fail to explain myself fully, and I should have been clearer with my words. I am sorry. My example that I cited was from my OWN family tree. I am fortunate in as much as I have quite a collection of NSW certificates. When a couple married in NSW according to C of E rites, the clergy hand the BRIDE a certificate. So, the cert I looked for was for the marriage of two of my ancestors who were married in 1845 in Sydney. On "my" cert the groom was aged 25 and the bride was aged 23. That couple are NOT Charles and Margaret JONES. But, the mc is for a C of E marriage within the same era as Charles and Margaret JONES marriage.
I hope I have made it clearer now :) :) .
Here's what is concerning me at the moment ....
Something’s NOT adding up ….. of course it could be ME who cannot add up, but ….. a quick check of the two usually reliable indexes (trying to figure out where there’s any record for a Charles JONES, born in Sydney circa 1821:
Col Sec papers 1788-1825 index
22 Sept 1818, Joseph BOOTH, per Isabella, to Parramatta for distribution
1 Jan 1819, Mary JONES, seamstress of Macquarie St, Parramatta, and mother of John and Charles JONES, admits the boys to the Male Orphan School
May 1821, Joseph BOOTH sought permission to marry at Parramatta
22 Nov 1822 Mary DAY’s petition to have her two boys removed from Male Orphan Institution REJECTED
18 Dec 1822 a George Shepherd tried for stealing from Joseph BOOTH (of Parramatta).
NSW SRO main index
1 Jan 1819, age NOT indexed John JONES, mother : Mary JONESadmitted to Male Orphan School
1 Jan 1819, aged 9 years Charles JONES, admitted to Male Orphan School
1 Jan 1819 aged 11 years, John JONES, no details indexed for who admitted him, to Male Orphan School
1 Jan 1819, aged 11 years John JONES, mother: Mary JONES, admitted to Male Orphan School
1 Jan 1819, aged 9 years Charles JONES, mother: Mary JONES, admitted to Male Orphan School
1 Jan 1819, age NOT indexed Charles JONES, mother : Mary JONES, admitted to Male Orphan School
NO date, perhaps a guess 1820 John JONES, aged 12 years, apprenticed as servant to K ROBERTSON, so discharged from Male Orphan School (remember though that Mary Day petitioned to have her TWO boys back and petition rejected Nov 1822)
13 Dec 1826, aged 16 years, Charles JONES, mother: Mary DAY, seeking release of son to her own custody
20 June 1828, age NOT indexed Charles JONES, Joseph BOOTH seeking to apprentice Charles.
So, to me, the question is HOW MANY lads in Sydney Town in the 1820s were named Charles JONES ....
Cheers, JM
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Thanks for clearing that up, sorry I thought you were giving the ages of Charles and Margaret. In this case then the Charles Jones from the orphan school could be the same Charles Jones who marries Margaret and has Annie. Charles Jones is my 4th Great Grandfather so I am very curious to find out anything about him and his family especially any information anyone has on his daughter Annie who married Hiram Emery Pierce who I think was a mariner from America and appears to have come out here during the American Civil war which makes me wonder why? Cheers DPaton
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Looks like the OP's online information:
http://www.mundia.com/au/Person/23598465/12480414950
http://trees.ancestry.com.au/tree/23598465/person/12480414950
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May I please ask what documents (bdm) do you currently hold re Charles or Margaret OR for Annie?
May I gently suggest that immigration to any of the Antipodean colonies from 1850 for several decades was often prompted by excessive GOLD FEVER issues.... ;D .... They came from all four corners of the globe .....
Cheers, JM
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Looks like the OP's online information:
http://www.mundia.com/au/Person/23598465/12480414950
http://trees.ancestry.com.au/tree/23598465/person/12480414950
Thanks Merlin, ;D ;D
I see that tree from Ancestry has likely mis-read their cited source (the NSW State Records Office, as archives holder of the Male Orphan Institution's Admissions book for 1817-1833) .
I see Charles JONES was admitted 1 Jan 1819 and discharged (QUIT the Orphan School) July 19, 1828. I see that at the time of Charles ADMITTANCE, his mum was Mary JONES, a seamstress of Parramatta.
I see that Charles JONES was aged 9 when admitted 1 Jan 1819 .... so likely born 1809
Cheers, JM
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As our OP is new to RChat (a belated welcome from me) I am posting a couple of links to help our OP.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,369703.0.html This is to the NSW RChat Resources Board, there's so many links there that are free to search, frequently you don't even need to register to search those links
And the other grand link is this one : http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,368728.0.html
Cheers, JM
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Thanks for all the information. The only facts I know for sure are that Annie and Hiram pierce are definitely my gggrandparents and that Annies mother was Margaret Tallentire/Jones/Lowe and she married a Charles R Jones in 1846 but have no solid leads as to who Charles R Jones. Seam to have hit a brick wall. There seem to be a few Charles Jones who could be candidates but do not yet have enough information to definitely nominate the correct one. Thank you all for your input and help.
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Hi DPaton.
Welcome to Rootschat from me as well ;D
Only too happy to help, finding people with a surname such as Jones is the old needle in a Haystack.
As JM asked earlier do you have any certificates on any of the people you are searching? Sometimes the smallest piece of information can help.
Neil
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Hi Neil, Thanks for your welcome.
No, I haven't got any certificates yet I guess I will eventually have to order some but at present can't afford to do this, am trying to put the pieces together the hard way.
cheers DPaton
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May I suggest you try a post on the US Board re Hiram Pierce they may be able to shed some light on Him.
In the meantime it looks like trolling the newspapers for mentions of your couple. Maybe not a dead end. ::)
Cheers
Neil
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Thanks JM for the welcome and the suggested web sites.
As suggested by Neil I have posted Hiram Pierce on the American chat board.
Cheers DPaton
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No, I haven't got any certificates yet I guess I will eventually have to order some but at present can't afford to do this, am trying to put the pieces together the hard way.
Hi there,
I am very NSW centric. May I please assure you that it will be nigh impossible the hard way with Jones as the surname. I have JONES, SMITH, BROWN, TURNER, in my NSW tree and YOU NEED BDM information that is NOT on the indexes.
May I please assure you that it would be sensible to save up some pennies and order official transcriptions of several NSW BDM certificates. These official transcriptions are cheaper, and come as email attachments. They contain all the same info as on the ‘real deal’ certificates, AND they have already had the long hand writing from the 19thC TRANSCRIBED by official transcribers.
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/familyHistory/howToTraceYouFamTree.htm#TranscriptionAgent (And on the list at RChat’s NSW Resources)
I think if this were my family I would start with the NSW marriage cert from 1866 for Annie E JONES. The official transcription should give you ALL the details that NSW BDM holds. I suspect there will be BLANKS on that document (details of the parents of the bride and the groom may well have NOT been noted by NSW BDM). The NSW BDM ref is #239. http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/cgi-bin/Index/IndexingOrder.cgi/search?event=marriages
Once you have that official transcription, then may I suggest you follow the NSW BDM suggestion on their own website re those elusive blanks.
“……it can be worthwhile for genealogists to contact the relevant church to find details missing from a marriage certificate or in the case of a birth, a baptism record where there is no corresponding civil registration.” http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/familyHistory/historyofRegistrysRec.htm
Here’s an RChat thread I did up to help other RChatters overcome those blanks.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,546609.0.html
So for less than $Au20 you could clearly establish the names of the parents for your Annie E Jones, and Annie’s Dad’s occupation ….. and that information would be given to the clergy directly by Annie’s voice herself on her 1866 marriage.
Cheers JM
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Margaret LOWE burial at Rookwood cemetery:
LOWE Margaret 87yrs
Date of Interment: 21 Aug 1913
Denomination: Methodist
Section: 3B
Grave Number: 0001211
Also in the same grave:
TALLENTIRE George 0yrs
Date of Interment: 15 May 1901
Denomination: Methodist
Section: 3B
Grave Number: 0001211
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Hmm. ::) They like to make things difficult. :P
In New Zealand. Ref # 1866/6589 Margaret Janes Married Thomas Lowe.
Neil ;)
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Also in the same grave:
TALLENTIRE George 0yrs
I recall that if the lass doing the indexing could NOT find age recorded on their records that she put a dash there. I also recall that the dash then converted itself to the number "0".... when converting to a database.
Cheers, JM
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Hmm. ::) They like to make things difficult. :P
In New Zealand. Ref # 1866/6589 Margaret Janes Married Thomas Lowe.
Neil ;)
Reply #8 Page 1 ;D
Sue
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Margaret's mother Ann, brother William, his wife Eliza & two of their daughters are buried together at Rookwood:
Section: Old Wesleyan
Portion: 4A
Row: 122
TALLENTIRE Ann 21 Aug 1871 90y w/George; mother
TALLENTIRE William 12 Apr 1917 87y son/George & Ann; h/Eliza; father
TALLENTIRE Eliza 23 Feb 1909 71y née Holmes; dau/Thomas S & Eliza; w/William; mother
TALLENTIRE Jessie May 1 Aug 1876-21 Nov 1876 dau/William & Eliza; gdau
TALLENTIRE Emily Agnes 19 Jan 1863-3 Mar 1878 dau/William & Eliza; gdau
Photo of the grave here:
http://austcemindex.com/inscription.php?id=8625646
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The NZ marriage-
Yr1866 REG 6589 Margaret Janes (sic)
To Thomas Lowe
Sue
I think that marriage was 1st or 2nd December 1866. I think NZ marriage certs are usually best ordered as printouts, however I am not exactly sure if the early ones will have lots of information on them. Perhaps the OP should check the NZ resources page ..... I don't know when NZ records for ITMs commence but I do know these are quite informative, and thus could well give information as to WHEN and WHERE Margaret JANES became a widow (or if she was noted as a widow) .... ;D
From hardcopy of various directories for Sydney NSW ...
1863 Thomas James LOW, mariner, Edward St, Balmain
1864 Thos Jas LOW, mariner, Edward St, Balmain
1867 Thomas J LOWE, mariner, Duke St, Balmain
1869 Thomas LOW, Duke St, Balmain
I am wondering IF that NZ marriage is for Annie Elizabeth JONES mum .....
Cheers, JM
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Further sightings IN CASE it is for the second husband of Margaret formerly JONES, nee TALLENTIRE.
Directories:
1871 Thomas J LOWE (Rose & Co) Brougham St, GLEBE
1873 T J LOWE, provedore, Brougham St, GLEBE
1877 Thomas J LOWE, master Mariner, Brougham St, GLEBE
1870 NSW Electoral Roll GLEBE
Thomas James LOWE, householder, Duke St, BALMAIN
1878 NSW Electoral Roll GLEBE
Thomas J LOWE, freehold, House, Brougham St, GLEBE
Annie Elizabeth JONES, daughter of Charles and Margaret JONES, married a chap (in 1866) who was NOT born a British Subject, so if he is found on electoral rolls either in NZ or in any of the Australian colonies, it would be sensible to search for his naturalisation papers as they will give further info (name of ship of arrival, date and place of birth, length of time in each colony, when and where married, naming wife, children, addresses, occupation etc)
Cheers, JM
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I am wondering IF that NZ marriage is for Annie Elizabeth JONES mum .....
The funeral notice (Reply #10) shows correct names for the track we are on.
Annie was married earlier in 1866 in Australia, and from your finding JM, MARGERET later in the year.
From your pre-1866 address listings there JM, it is possible THOMAS was a friend or neighbour in the same suburb in Sydney and everyone went to NZ where they married.
I wonder what is the proximity of DUKE STREET to EDWARD STREET :D
Sue
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Well, errr .... late 1960s early 1970s DUKE St definitely was a laneway, very narrow, I know that because I resided at 13 Duke St ! My flat was UPSTAIRS ... tiny cubby it was , but I don't remember there being an Edward St then.... I will get the hardcopy suburban dir out for the 19thC and see if that 100 years difference with sort it out ;D
Cheers, JM
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Yes, there still was an Edward St in 1892 (Sands Sydney Suburban)
Edward St ran from Fence (no, not a street, but a fence somewhere about “there” … see Little Edward and William st entries below) to Johnston’s Bay. Edward St cross streets were: William and Little Edward Streets, and of course the residents occupations (in Edward St) include: 1 x shipwright, 2 x boatbuilder, 1 x engineer, 2 x mariner, 1 x ship builder (only 18 households).
Little Edward Street, six households, …..1 boatbuilder, 1 master mariner
William Street ran from Darling Harbour to Johnson St and most were shipbuilders or otherwise “marine”
Cheers, JM :)
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Looks like A.B. Hiram PIERCE was crew on the Templar into Sydney July 1863 from New York.... he was aged 25, American.
http://mariners.records.nsw.gov.au/
"Charles Jones is my 4th Great Grandfather so I am very curious to find out anything about him and his family especially any information anyone has on his daughter Annie who married Hiram Emery Pierce who I think was a mariner from America and appears to have come out here during the American Civil war which makes me wonder why? Cheers DPaton"
Cheers, JM
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There is some online evidence (which I have not followed up) that HIRAM was born in America.
During the time he and ANNIE were in NZ they had about five children.
The last was in 1879.
They returned to Australia.
MARGARET seems to have been back by 1867 if she was with husband THOMAS LOWE.
(This is according to the addresses and years given by JM which of course may not be "up to date" in their accuracy. People often forgot to withdraw their names from directories then -as now!)
Sue
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Well unfortunately we were way off track with Charles the orphan ;D
Baptisms Administered in the Parish of St. Philip's, Sydney, in the County of Cumberland, N.S. Wales, in the year 1848.
George Richard, son of Charles Richard and Margaret JONES
Baptized January 1848
Born 6th December 1847
Abode: Clarence Street
Quality or Profession: Hairdresser
Ceremony performed by William COWPER
Baptisms Administered in the Parish of St. Philip's, Sydney, in the County of Cumberland, N.S. Wales, in the year 1849.
Baptized 30 September 1849
Born 23rd August 1848
Ann Elizabeth, daughter of Chas. Richard and Margaret JONES
Abode: King Street
Quality or Profession: Hairdresser
Ceremony performed by Robt. L. KING
And the marriage:
Marriages solemnized in the Parish of St Philips
25 May 1846
Charles Richard JONES of this parish, Bachelor
Margaret TALLENTIRE of the Parish of Holy Trinity, Spinster
Married by Banns with consent of Mother
Ceremony performed by William COWPER
I believe they both signed (no indication of "x mark"), but this copy is not the original and all written in one hand.
Witnesses: John RODDAMS or REDDAMS of Sydney
Mary KILLEEN (her X mark) of Balmain
Debra :)
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I also saw that the online indexes contained some post 1856 burials so I had a look at the three:
This chap was a Mason, and aged 30
Burial
1860
V18608999 122B
JONES, CHARLES
This is probably the corresponding death reg., as the other death in 1860 was for a 22 year old:
1510/1860
JONES, CHARLES
Parents: WILLIAM & MARIA
SYDNEY
This chap was a warehouseman, aged 26
Burial
1861
V18619581 122B
JONES, CHARLES
Probably the corresponding death reg.:
666/1861
JONES, CHARLES
Parents: ISAAC & UNKNOWN
SYDNEY
This one had no occupation listed, but was aged 51 and his abode was Francis Street, Woolloomooloo.
Burial
1864
V186412230 122C
JONES, CHARLES
Probably the corresponding death reg. as the other death in 1864 was for a 73 year old.
861/1864
JONES, CHARLES
Parents: EDWARD & REBECCA
SYDNEY
Death notice:
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/60559579
I have met this man previously (genealogically speaking ;D) and this is definitely not our Charles.
Debra :)
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Sands 1863 Alpha Sydney Directory
Charles JONES, agent, 29 Francis St :)
This one had no occupation listed, but was aged 51 and his abode was Francis Street, Woolloomooloo.
Burial
1864
V186412230 122C
JONES, CHARLES
Cheers, JM
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HAIRDRESSER :)
Sorry, but my Sands 1863 Trade & Professional Directory definitely does have the heading "hairdressers and perfumers" and there's quite a few names under that heading, BUT .... none with surname JONES .... :'(
I tried under the heading "Barber" and it refers back to hairdressers and perfumers ::)
Cheers, JM
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JM, what about Tobacconists?
Debra :)
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Tobacconists NONE by the surname JONES
Snuff Makers NONE by the surname JONES
:'(
Cheers, JM
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Could he perhaps have changed his profession by 1863 or gone off to the gold fields?
His marriage record states he is of the parish of St Philip's so does this mean he may have been born in the parish so there should be a parish record of his birth.
Thanks for all this new information.
Cheers DPaton
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Could he perhaps have changed his profession by 1863 or gone off to the gold fields?Cheers DPaton
He could have done either of these and also possibly wasn't deceased by 1866. They may have had no contact with him for some time and presumed he was dead. It would be worthwhile to get Margaret's death certificate to see exactly how many children she had to Charles. If Ann was the last child, born in 1848, and Charles only appears on the electoral roll to 1851 then it is possible that he was long gone by 1866. It may also be beneficial to know what happened to the son George and whether he was still living when his mother died.
I know why George's baptism doesn't appear in the indexes.
This child in the indexes is the baptism after George:
V1848 33
33A/1848
MACLEAR, ISABELLA
THOMAS & ISABELLA
Oh look, here she is again ;D
V1848 32
33A/1848
MACLEAR, ISABELLA
THOMAS & ISABELLA
This second one should be for George.
I don't (yet) know why Ann is missing.
Being "of a parish" on a marriage entry is where they were living at the time of the marriage.
Debra :)
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Just found a post about a Charles R Jones that looks like it could relate to the same Charles who is Annie's father. "Born London 30 Aug 1821 to Charles R and Elizabeth Jones. Died Greenville IL 29 Dec 1902. Married first in Australia; three children, one George, b. 1847/48, "deaf, dumb". Second marriage in Brighton, England 16 April 1853 to Annie Greenland; six children, Joseph E, Sacramento, CA, Charles O., Emily C., Loise E., Rosina, Pearl K., all of Greenville IL. Served four years on British man-o-war "Acbar" - enlisted at Gravesend, Eng. as servant to Capt. Pepper. Joined fleet at Wampoo, China 1841 during "Opium War". Visited Manila four times. In Australia had barber shop and cigar store in Melbourne and Sydney (this fits with him being a Hairdresser). Returned to England 1852; came to Iron Mountain, Jefferson Co., 1854. Moved to Carlye, IL and in 1867 to Greenville." Need to check all the dates and people etc but looks like a fit.
DPaton
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Here's the link to the very old post for other RC'rs:
http://genforum.genealogy.com/jones/messages/7405.html
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Good grief :o That sounds like a lot of oral history maybe?
It looks like Charles took George with him:
1860 US Census
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/MHZ7-5VR
Name: Chs R Jones
Birth: abt 1822 - England
Residence: 1860 - city, Jefferson, Missouri, United States
Name: George Jones
Birth: abt 1848 - Australia
Residence: 1860 - city, Jefferson, Missouri, United States
1870 census
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/M64Z-3R7 (image online)
1880 census
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/MXNS-G9L
1900 census
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/MSS3-FWW (image online)
At least the researcher has an unusual name so it shouldn't be too hard to find her.
When I said he may have been long gone by 1866, I meant maybe to Bathurst, not America ;D
Debra :)
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Thanks Debra, for the info will check out all the census records. I too thought maybe western NSW but then found this info and so much fitted in with what we already had.
Thanks for all your help at last I feel like I am getting somewhere with Charles now he has been bugging me for so long.
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George Richard (son) seems to go missing after 1860 census. Wonder what happened to him, if he was deaf and dumb then maybe he was placed in a home or maybe he had just moved elsewhere by the 1870 census. Charles seems to have just up and left his family in Australia and gone back to England and married again. I wonder if he and Margaret got a divorce or if not then his second marriage is not legal and he is actually a bigamist.
Cheers DPaton