RootsChat.Com
Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Caernarvonshire => Topic started by: welshpride on Thursday 06 June 13 05:22 BST (UK)
-
Making a broad search of the Roberts family from this location circa 1750-1850.
Robert J. E. Roberts (1721-1796) married Jane Jones (1719-1796)
They had children:
Elizabeth Roberts (1745-1763)
Grace Roberts (1748- )
Robert Roberts (1752-1832)
William Roberts (1757-1767)
Ann Roberts (1760- )
Elizabeth Roberts (1763- )
Ellin Roberts (1763- )
John Roberts (1765- )
William Roberts (1767-1844)
The males were miners, working in a large slate mine operation near to Fachwen. The person I am most interested in learning more about is John Roberts, born in 1765. I believe he may have been the father of my ancestor Jane Roberts, who was also registered in some church documents as Jane Jones. It has been explained to me that as a child of John Roberts (in the patronymic system) could be called Jane Jones (from John) or Jane Roberts. It was further suggested her father would likely have been named John Roberts or Robert Jones. She was definitely a relative of this family, and certainly so if it turns out she WAS a daughter of John Roberts (1765). I've found many family trees on this overall family, but none that go into the descendants of John Roberts.
Additional particulars which may help:
Jane Roberts was born in 1786 and may have lived on a farm to the west, in L:lanfair-is-gaer, called Garth. When Jane married John Daniel in 1825 they immediately took up residence in this farm home. She was reported to "be of the family living at Garth."
Jane Roberts married John Daniel on July 27, 1825. They had a son, John Robert Daniel in 1826, and a daughter, Margaret, in 1832.
The family left in a great migration from North Wales to Wisconsin in the U.S. which took place during 1845.
Hoping someone out there may be familiar with this Roberts family and may have some information on which child of Robert J. E. Roberts and Jane Jones would have been the parent of Jane Roberts (b. 1786).
Thank you,
Steve Jones
Racine, Wisconsin, USA
-
I'm familiar with some members of this family - in particular the descendants of Robert Roberts (1752-1832) who married a relative of mine. May I ask how you know Jane Roberts was a relative ?
-
There is a baptism of Jane, daughter of Robert Roberts and Mary of Fachwen, on 26th March 1785.
Also Jane, daughter of David Roberts and Margaret on 14th July 1785 but I can't make out the place name.
David
-
As for the connection, it is repeatedly and well-documented in biographies of this particular Welsh family here in Wisconsin that Jane Roberts was a cousin of Foulk Roberts, a son of the second marriage of Robert Roberts (b. 1752). Foulk was the pioneer immigrant who first came before the rest two days after he was married in Wales on 18 September 1844. He paved the way for the rest who settled in this area of my state.
These biographies also go on to state that "several other of her family" settled there, including Hugh Roberts and his descendants, who seem to have been involved in some way with the Calvinistic ministry.
I've been unable to get through to any parentage of Jane by direct research, so I am using a flanking maneuver in a search of her family hoping to find the connection. If she were a cousin to Foulk Roberts (b. 1820 Llandeiniolen) that would indicate she was the child of one of Foulk's uncles or aunts, hence the search within his immediate family. The relationship seems to be rather close, which is why I am thinking we're talking about first cousins here, not fourth or fifth...
Jane appears on various official documents as both Jane Roberts and Jane Jones. For example, her name appeared as Jane Roberts on her 1825 wedding registration, and in multiple biographies in local histories here in Wisconsin. However, her name was registered on her children's baptism entries as Jane Jones. My Welsh researcher friend suggested that this was likely due to patronymics and the church member recording her surname interpreting her name as he saw fit based on his use or non-use of that naming convention, based on differing patronymic practices.
My friend (a veteran genealogist of 30 years) further suggested that there was a good possibillity that based on patronymics that her father's name likely would have been John Roberts or Robert Jones (i.e. - child could be given last name Jones from John, Jones or simply take Roberts from Robert or surname Roberts). It just so happens that Foulk Roberts had an uncle named John Roberts...Of course, this is just a lead I am following up on, like a detective, but my other avenues have dried up.
One thing is clear to me, the more I learn about the family of Foulk Roberts (b. 1820), his father Robert Roberts (b. 1752) and Foulk's grandparents (Robert L. E. Roberts and Jane Jones), the more likely the possibility that I will find one of those ancestors will be Jane's parent(s).
Oh yes, I should also note that the Jane Roberts mentioned by two of you in replies as having been born in 1785 - close, but no cigar - she died in the early 1800's. My Jane lived until 13 October 1872 and died here in Wisconsin. I saw that Jane on sveeral trees over the weekend and was sure I'd found the link, until I see she died a young woman.
The search continues...
Steve Jones
-
If she were a cousin of Foulk Roberts, then it would certainly be on his father's side. His mother was a 'Foulkes' , and there was no brother called Robert Foulkes. There might be some benefit in looking at Llanfaglan baptisms and marriages, as I think the marriage of Jane Roberts and John Daniel took place in Llanfaglan, and her (suspected) grandfather (Robert Evan) lived there. Robert Roberts is said to have moved from Fachwen to Blaen y Cae (Llanddeiniolen) around 1802, but no record exists as to when the family moved from Llanfaglan. Is it possible that she was born to John Roberts in Llanfaglan, and that he never actually followed his brother to Llanddeiniolen ?
-
At this point I would entertain any possibility. I just don't know enough about John Roberts to say one way or another. You are correct about the marriage of John Daniel and Jane. It took place in Llanfaglan on 27 July 1825. The marriage registration stated:
John Daniel of the Parish of Lladegai in the County of Caernarvon and Jane Roberts of this Parish were married in this church by Banns with Confet of parents this 27th Day of July in the Year one-thousand eight hundred and twenty-five by me (Edward Hughes, Vicar). This marriage was solemnized between us John Daniel and Jane Roberts in the presence of Daniel Jones and John Williams.
Keep the information and ideas coming. I feel we are getting close...
Steve
-
There is a baptism to match Huwcyn's theory:
Llanfaglan Aug 27 1786 Jane daughter of John Roberts and Margaret his wife
The following is wild speculation and possibly complete nonsense:
There is a marriage of John Roberts to Margaret Daniel in Aberffraw 1783
There is a Margaret Daniel baptised 1764 in Aberffraw to William and Margaret who might be a candidate.
John Daniel who marries Jane Roberts could be the one baptised 1790 in Aberffraw to William and Elizabeth.
William in turn could be the one baptised to William and Margaret in Aberffraw in 1865,making him a brother of Margaret(Jane's mother),and therefore Jane married her first cousin?
Regards
Roger
-
A will of a John Roberts of Ty Newydd, Llanfaglan around 1826 mentions a daughter Jane Roberts as both a beneficiary and executor.
-
Holy smokes it sounds as though you guys have really put together a compelling case. Examining what you have just related to me we have the following pieces to the puzzle, which would seem to fit together:
Jane Roberts, daughter of John Roberts, presumably born, and baptized in 1786 in the community from which she seems to have lived much of her life. To follow that up, there is a prominent role to play in the care of John Roberts personal will, by a Jane Roberts. There is a John Roberts who's wife's name was Margaret. The only daughter Jane Roberts had was named Margaret.
Keep it up guys, you're on fire!!!
Many thanks.
Steve Jones
Wisconsin
-
The transcription of John Roberts,Llanfaglan who died in 1826 gives him as 30 years old.However,looking at the original image where the first number is partially obscured,30 seems very unlikely.60 or 80 seem more likely,with 60 giving a reasonable fit with the theory.
Regards
Roger
-
The John Roberts will also mentions a son Robert.The only Robert Roberts baptised in Llanfaglan to a John and Margaret that I can find is baptised 1775,ruling out John Roberts born/baptised in the 1760s as his father.Further,by the date of the will,1826 shouldn't Jane Roberts be Jane Daniel on my speculation?
There could,of course,be two different John Roberts...........
The date of baptism of the Robert Roberts above reminds me that when doing a general trawl,looking at the 1832 will I noticed there was a bond for Robert Roberts of Blaen Cae in 1836,whose wife was Ann(e).In the census returns she looks born approx.1778(and possibly originally Anne Thomas) with the death of a Robert Roberts(1777-1836) looking appropriate.
There may be Blaen (y) Cae Uchaf and Isaf that fit the bill for the properties(as Foulk Roberts is in one Blaen Y Cae in 1841 and Ann(e) Roberts in the other.It looks like one of her sons Hugh takes over the property,but sometimes it seems to be referred to as Ty Newydd Blaen Cae!.
Is this Robert/Ann(e) a known branch of the family,and,if so,how connected?
Regards
Roger
-
The Robert (Robert) Roberts who died in 1836 was the son of the Robert Roberts who came there from Llanfaglan, by his first marriage to Mary Williams. He had a brother and sister called Hugh and Ann Roberts. Foulk Roberts was a half-brother of his, by the second marriage to Catherine Foulkes.
In passing : (1)Robert Robert Roberts had a son whom I've seen referred to in one place as Robert Robert Robert Roberts !!
(2) He was older, by a decade, than his step-mother.
-
Would it be possible to send me a copy or image of that document, or include any written information. The John Roberts I am interested in would've been 60 or 61 in 1826 (b. 1765). I wonder also if there are death records that could shed some light on this man's life/death. I would like to know anything I can about him. If you would like my e-mail I can send it to you on Personal Message.
Steve
-
I would say it most likely that the will would've been written when she was still Jane Roberts, and after all, she had just been married in the summer of 1825, so there may not have been a thought to change the name in the will, given the death was within a year of the wedding and subsequent name change.
-
Oh, and by the way, when John Daniel and Jane Roberts had their son John Daniel, his middle name was Robert....
-
If it's the will you are after the search form is here
http://cat.llgc.org.uk/cgi-bin/gw/chameleon
Use search terms
Date: 1827-1827 then "Save"
Name: John Roberts
Township: Ty Newydd
This should bring up the correct document.Click on "Image 1" etc to view
Regards
Roger
-
Huwcyn said:
The Robert (Robert) Roberts who died in 1836 was the son of the Robert Roberts who came there from Llanfaglan, by his first marriage to Mary Williams. He had a brother and sister called Hugh and Ann Roberts. Foulk Roberts was a half-brother of his, by the second marriage to Catherine Foulkes.
I read this and wanted to point out that one of Jane Roberts principal relatives to settle here in Wisconsin was named Hugh Roberts. I am assuming it is the same one that is mentioned in your above statement. I think I need to get ahold of a full tree for Foulk Roberts showing as many close relatives as I can and start feeding some of this into it. I feel we are so close to nailing down who Jane Roberts parents are I can just sense it.
-
I think I have found the burial record for Margaret Roberts wife of John Roberts of Ty Newydd.She died in 1823 aged 81.This probably means John's record says 80 and rules him out as the son of Robert J E Roberts.
Regards
Roger
-
As the latest John Daniel search has petered out,I thought I would try a different angle on Jane(nee Roberts).You say that she is "of the family of Hugh Roberts",and I thought I would look for clues via him.
These biographical details:
http://digicoll.library.wisc.edu/cgi-bin/WI/WI-idx?type=turn&entity=WI.WFWelshSett.p0165&id=WI.WFWelshSett&isize=text
and
http://www.scls.lib.wi.us/por/columbia/images/00000034.pdf
suggest he is the Hugh Roberts at Tanybuarth,Llandeiniolen in 1841 (ref 1394 11/44 4)
FamilySearch has his marriage to Mary Jones at Holyhead,Anglesey(May 1825,two weeks after Thomas' baptism?) and the baptisms of the children Thomas(1825),Hannah(1830),Robert(1833) all at Ysgoldy or Pentir Calvanistic,Llanfair and Dwygyfylchi/LLanddeiniolen.
Hugh's son Thomas H Roberts has an uncle David R Roberts and with Hugh also being referred to as "Hugh R Roberts" it is tempting to think Hugh and David are both sons of a Robert Roberts.
It is also tempting to think that David Roberts is the one at Penybuarth(?) in 1841(ref 1394 10/6 6).
I'll see if I can find a connection to a Jane,but "of the family" does not necessarily imply a sister(?) though the 1841 census birth range(1786-1796) for Jane,Hugh,David could make this plausible(remembering that 1841 births are generally "rounded" to the nearest five).
Regards
Roger
-
There was also a mention of a sister Gwen to Thomas H Roberts.I have now fouhd that baptism-the same as the other three children at Ysgoldy or Pentir to Hugh Roberts and Mary Jones in January 1823,over two years before their marriage.
She might be at ref 1394 11/8 8 with Ellis and Jane Foulkes in 1841
(I don't suppose Jane(Roberts or Jones) is related to Mary,perhaps both daughters of a Robert Jones?I'm not sure if the cousin relationship to Foulk Roberts then works?)
Regards
Roger
-
There is a marriage of David Roberts to Ellin Jones at Llanddeiniolen in 1820(FamilySearch) that would match the 1841 David Roberts census in the earlier post.Another opportunity for a relationship to Jane?
Regards
Roger
-
I don't know Despair. I'll try to figure out where you are going with your search, but the past two days I have been quite disillusioned with genealogy. For the longest time people have been telling me how unusual a name John Daniel is in North Wales and yet we come up with three (the one we already knew, plus two more), both John Daniel, both with daughter-in-laws named Jane, even the correct communities or parishes, and yet none of the leads we've had for them or this Roberts line has panned out. I'm beginning to thinbk John Daniel is a very popular name in Wales. Everything has come up empty. I'm not sure right now that we're ever going to improve on what I already knew coming in.
I appreciate your continued efforts. I will likely get back into the game fairly soon. Right now, just too disappointed. Someone out there knows these families, and I've tried to blanket the Internet with as many search possibilities as I can. Perhaps the right person just has not seen my queries. It wouldn't be the first time I've placed a request for information that wasn't "found" by the right informant until several years had passed. It's amazing how many people are interested in this Roberts family, but only the descendants of Robert Roberts, none of his siblings or older ancesters. We know Jane was related to Foulk and Hugh. Perhaps that will eventually lead somewhere. Thank you for your continued help and support.
Steve
-
I'll leave you with one last bit of data that might prove a lengthy extrapolation from limited data but for what it's worth:
The 1841 census tends to round ages,generally down,to the nearest five.Given that there is only the 1841 data for persons of interest(unless you have independent data)
Baptism of El(l)in Jones to Morgan and Ann Jones Tyddyn Wisgin 1799
Baptism of Jane Jones to same couple,no address,but same district 1782
Good luck with your future search
Regards
Roger
-
Roger:
You've been a great help and as my friend Alan told me yesterday, sometimes eliminating possibilities is just as valuable as identifying correct links - all part of the puzzle, you know? I will still be here, still hoping to latch onto someone's clue or hint. Please don't hesitate to share anything you may come by. I will keep shaking the tree to see what comes out. If I can find something interesting, you'll see it posted here.
Steve
-
I sat down last night and like a detective, began reviewing the facts about the relationships known between Foulk Roberts, the Roberts family overall, and Jane Roberts. I recalled that the 1850 census taken in Waushara Township (later known as Fox Lake) Wisconsin had an interesting aspect to it. Not only were John and Jane (Roberts) Daniel and their two children represented on the return, but so too was an 8-year-old boy named Thomas Roberts.
I consulted the Carl Hankwitz public family tree on Ancestry.com. This is one of the most complete trees covering the Roberts family I could find. I looked for young lads named Thomas Roberts and found one immediately. In fact, the only lad who could qualify as the one enumerated with the Daniel family in the 1850 census was the son of Dafydd Roberts, brother of Foulk Roberts. His son Thomas was born in 1843, according to records associated with the tree, so here is yet another interesting connection between the families.
Now just because he was enumerated with the Daniel family does not mean Thomas was living with them. The way the U.S. census worked at the time, you could be visiting a family for the day and if the census taker stopped by, he included you in the return for the family living in that household. Still, the fact that he is listed on the Daniel return speaks to the kinship in the family.
In regards to "Despair's" look at Hugh Roberts, I found the following information, also taken from the Hankwitz tree. Hugh Roberts was recordedc as being among the family of Jane Roberts who settled in the Dodge County area of Wisconsin (along with Foulk). The Hugh Roberts being referred to here is recorded as Hugh "Huw" Roberts (1788-1865). There is a full biography on him attached to the Hankwitz tree. In fact, it is stated that upon arrival in Wisconsin, Hugh "met his old friend John Daniel." This would seem to confirm that the whole lot of them were quite well known to each other in back in Wales, prior to the mid-1840s.
Hugh was the brother of Robert R. Roberts (b.1777), from which Foulk descended. He also had brothers Thomas (b.1779) and David (b.1782), as well as sisters Jane (b.1785-d.1804)and Ann (b.1791).
I also checked the ship manifest from the journey John Daniel and family took across the Atlantic. Listed among the passengers specifically associated with Wales, were two with the last name Roberts.
One was recorded as Pugh Roberts, Tan-y-Buarth, Llandeiniolen. The other was John Roberts, age 46 (self and family, wife Jane, age 44, and children John, Robert, Humphrey, Ellen, Owen, Dorothy and Morris), Beddgelert. There was also a John Roberts who's age was listed as 30.
I'm not quite sure where to go with this, but reviewing the above stated details renews a bit of hope in me that a connection to my Jane Roberts can be established.
-
Message deleted due to error in original.
-
The key to finding an answer to your ancestry is probably finding a burial for John Roberts (1765 ).
I had a look at the Bishop's transcripts for Llanfaglan at the National Library, but I did not find anything other than what 'Despair' pointed out. Frustratingly, the vicar , though neater than many of his fellows, does not record the home of the parents of the Jane Roberts born around 1786. I couldn't locate a marriage for a John Roberts just previous to that either, but Llanfaglan is a small parish, so he might have had to 'import' a wife ! I don't think that you will ever find proof positive without that, only eliminate possibilities until you arrive at a degree of certainty that satisfies you.
There are two churches in Llanfaglan, both of which have recorded burial grounds. I looked at the MIs for the newer one, with no luck. Unfortunately, the library is not in possession of the MIs for St Baglan, the much older church. I know that it has been published.
The will of Robert John Evan shows that he lived at Ty Eiddew. No grandchildren seem to be mentioned, and no homes mentioned for the children. John Roberts is given livestock, so one can suppose that he farmed locally. By 1841, no obvious connection can be seen between the family and the inhabitants.
-
Interestingly enough, Despair identified two children named Ellin and Jane Jones, were born to Morgan and Ann Jones in the late 1780s & 90s. What's interesting is their home on baptism records was Tyddyn Wisgyn. This is the name of the farm across the road from Garth, where John and Jane Daniel raised their children between 1825-1845. I don't see where the Jane Roberts name would've come from given the parent's names or Morgan and Ann Jones, but the times when Jane was referred to as Jane Jones, well.... The age seems off unfortunately.
-
I was just reviewing the postings on this thread and saw something that I had overlooked. Back on page 1 there was the mention of a baptism in Llanfaglan on 27 August 1786. The child was Jane Roberts, daughter of John and Margaret Roberts. I overlooked this because in the next paragraph and subsequent postings we got into the possibility that this was the same John and Margaret Roberts who lived in Ty Newydd.
I've experienced enough run-ins with the right name being the wrong person to know that there is far more than one John Roberts in this area, and the one in Llanfaglan does not necessarily have to be the one living in Ty Newydd. My Jane Roberts lived in Llanfaglan. She was born in 1786. This baptism took place in Llanfaglan, in 1786. When she got married it was in Llanfaglan. To this point, this is the first and only Jane Roberts brought to my attention that has been linked to the correct year of 1786 and in the correct community.
I would like to find out as many details as I can about the baptism of this Jane Roberts on 27 August 1786. Let's start there - again.
-
Some thoughts:
Margaret Roberts 81 of Ty Newydd bur 31 March 1823, presumably wife of John.
Although John names his daughter as Roberts in his will, rather than Daniel, the female children are often included with their maiden names. However, this doesn't necessarily mean that she is Jane Daniel.
There is a death of Margaret Edwards at the same address in 1822.
John names a son, Robert, in his will. He may have moved away but there is a death of the right age in 1845. He was at Glan y mor, which is still there. I can't find Ty Newydd but the some of the surrounding houses are on the maps.
One tree gives Owen as the father of Robert but he is old enough to be his grandfather
Catherine Roberts 78 of Glan y mor - bur 28 Apr 1831
Robert Roberts 56 of Glan y mor - bur 22 Mar 1845
Owen Roberts 99 of Glan y mor - bur 5 Mar 1847
1841 Census Glan y Mor
Owen Roberts 92 - farmer
Robert Roberts 50 - farmer
Jane Roberts 30 (Robert's second wife)
Cathrine Roberts 4 (their daughter)
David
-
DCB:
You noted some of the same things I picked up on late last night. The scan I was sent of the burial registrations finally came through where I could download it. When I looked at it I saw Ty Newydd represented three times:
Margaret Edwards, age 33, November 1822
Margaret Roberts, age 81, 31 March 1823
John Roberts, (presumably 80, although I can still see a possibility of 60), 26 May 1826
Furthermore, EVERY REGISTRATION ON BOTH PAGES were signed by the same Vicar - Edward Hughes - who married John Daniel and Jane Roberts.
Some additional thoughts:
1) If John Roberts on this page is 80 he cannot be of the line that my Jane came from because they had no such aged John Roberts in their tree, so you could throw these Roberts out as dead-ends, and there would be no connection to Ty Newydd.
2) Given the known birth year of my Jane Roberts (1786), this John (if 80) and the Margaret from the same household (81) at time of death, means that both would have been in their early 40's when they had Jane Roberts. This is certainly possible, but I would think more likely in a family were there are multiple children and the couple just kept having kids.
3) The bottom line is that there in no way HAS TO BE a connection between the Jane Roberts baptized 27 August 1786 and the Roberts couple living at Ty Newydd into the early 1820s. In a way, I'm kind of disavowing the Ty Newydd connection, but am still very interested in finding out more about the Jane noted in 1786. That name and that year are a match for my ancestor, and I would like to expand upon that lead if possible.
4) One thing's for sure, searching for a Roberts in this area is an exhaustive process, as nearly 9 out of every 10 postings on this thread involve someone with the last name Roberts
-
Looking for siblings of Jane Roberts baptised 1786 Llanfaglan to John and Margaret,there is a Richard baptised 1783 and possibly a Robert in 1775,abode given as Bryn Glas.Even the record for Richard in 1783 stretches the credibility of the father being John Roberts born 1765(By the way I have struggled to find records of the family of Robert J E Roberts and Jane Jones as described).
I included the Morgan Jones references previouslybecause of the proximity of Tyddyn Wisgyn and in a futile attempt to connect via patronymics to Catherine Morgan(s) who appears in the 1841 census with Foulk Roberts.
I have tried,in vain, io find any will or other birth,marriage or burial record that clearly gives the correct Garth as an abode as a clue to other family connections.
Again,for what it is worth,here are the only records I can find"in the area" with John Roberts born 1765
1765-1817 Tyddyn Felin Llanddeiniolen
1765-1851 Fron Chwith Llanddeiniolen
1765-1833 Ty Bach Pentir
and because of the address,albeit a different date
1762-1830 Waun Wen
I can't remember if this has been covered before, but is it clear Jane was a spinster(approx. 40 who immediately had children?) when she married John Daniel? If not......
Regards
Roger
-
In case wild goose chases are in the offing, Catherine Morgan is in fact, Catherine (Foulkes) Roberts , mother of Foulk Roberts. After being widowed , she married Evan Morgan from Llanrug, who I think was a widower. He died before 1841 as well, and she then accompanied her sons to Wisconisn.
-
I don't know if you have the full details of the baptisms of John Daniel 1827 and Margaret in 1832 - available on http://www.bmdregisters.co.uk/ - credits needed for full details or images.
Non-conformist registers sometime give the maternal grandparents, which may be where the surname of Jones came from. For instance I have one which reads - ...wife Mary the daughter of Joseph and Mary M******.
Jane would be about 46 when Margaret was born, so it is possible that she was born when her mother was 44, assuming that the ages are correct.
There is a reference to John Roberts of Bryn Glas on this link -http://isys.llgc.org.uk/isysquery/irl72d/2/doc#hit1
David
-
David: Agreed on the age thing, babies are born every day to women in their 40's.
The second link you provided would not open up for me. Could you check the spelling. It won't even highlight as a link usually does.
I actually have copies of the baptismal records of both Daniel children and neither mentions grandparents, nor does the Daniel-Roberts wedding registration mention parents. If only......
-
For those who have been so kind to help me in my quest to find the parents of Jane Roberts, I wanted to alert you that on this end I am currently trying to find death certificate information and any possible obituaries for Jane (Roberts) Daniel. She died (according to her headstone) on 13 October 1872. You would think that in my own country I'd have better luck finding information, but the State of Wisconsin has no registration of her death that I can locate. Requests for research help from the area of their residence have failed thus far due to a lack of volunteer look-up help, so I will likely have to do it myself. They lived about 100 miles from me so I hope to journey to the area some day soon, visit the cemetery and the local libraries, and see if I can come up with anything from micro-filmed local newspapers. The fact that Jane was the wife of a prominent local minister, in my experience, usually leads to the publication of a small article in the local newspaper noting the event. Her husband John Daniel died in 1859, but perhaps one of the two children they had knew the names of their maternal grandparents and may have provided that information on official death records. I guess my greatest hope is that official documents will contain a birthdate (to augment the christening dates we've been working with). For instance, if I were to find out that she was born on 23 August 1786, then the record uncovered citing a baptism of Jane Roberts on 27 August 1786 would cinch it for me that that is in fact the correct Jane Daniel, which would then confirm the names of the parents. Also, our death records here most often also include parental names. I will continue to do what I can on my end to learn what I can. Thank you all again for the efforts you've put forth to help me.
-
Sorry about the link, I had the dash joined up to it - http://isys.llgc.org.uk/isysquery/irl72d/2/doc#hit1
It worked by copying and pasting, if not directly.
David
-
I may have found the will of Robert J E Roberts(1721-1796)
Search at NLW for Robert Jones,Township Llanfaglan(1795)
He is given as "otherwise Robert John Evan" and the address is Ty Eiddaw(Ty Eiddew on current maps).
He names his wife Jane Jones,and children(as Roberts)sons John,Robert,William and daughters Grace(as a sister to one of the sons),and Jane(who doesn't appear identified in the previous list).I assume she is not THE Jane Roberts(?),perhaps the previous generation(?).
Looking at the 1841 census for Ty Eiddaw(ref 1394 12/6 6) there is a Bryn Glas on the next page(though no doubt there are others in Caernarvonshire)
Regards
Roger
(later addition-apologies to Huwcyn who identified the address earlier-I had been looking for a Robert Roberts.)
-
I sure hope Jane is descended in some way from Robert John Evan Roberts because if she is, I will have plenty of information to add to the tree. Funny that there is a Jane mentioned as a child of Robert J E Roberts in the will, as that I believe would make her an aunt to Foulk Roberts. Jane Roberts being an aunt to Foulk was mentioned once in the biography we have here in the U.S., however that has been refutted several times and corrected to cousin. One more mystery.
-
For the record Roger, the most complete tree that I can find has the following children of Robert John Evan Roberts and Jane Jones:
Elizabeth (deceased at 18 - which would be one reason she was not in the will)
Grace
Robert
William (deceased at 10 - same as Elizabeth as for the will)
Ann
Elizabeth
Ellin
John
William
...and apparently Jane, unless Grace, Ann, Elizabeth or Ellin went by Jane as a name
You are correct, this Jane could not be mine as there is now way she would've been born in 1786, which would been 19 years after the last listed known child of Robert John Evan Roberts.
-
I tried to view the will you mentioned but it came back "unable to authenticate request."
-
Yes,I had the same problem,but it looks like it is fixed now.
At last,I have a record that might make sense of it all:-
1772 baptism of William Robert to John Robert of Ty Eiddaw and Margaret his wife
(there is also a 1772 marriage of John Robert(s) t0 Margaret Jones in Llanfaglan)
Clearly this John Roberts was not born/baptised in 1765.
Given the marriage date,an estimate of !740-1750 is reasonable and this makes John Roberts and Margaret Roberts of Ty Newydd dying in their eighties in the 1820s,prime candidates.
If you can view the originals of the 1841 census you will also see that there is a Ty Newydd "next door but one" to Bryn Glas.
The only piece missing as far as I can see is a baptism record to match John's birth.Typically,I can find every other of the Robert J E Roberts children approximately as per the list,with a few minor modifications,and the odd other incidental surprise(an illegitimate child to Grace).Most are recorded as Jones,but a couple under Roberts.The Ty Eiddew address is first seen in the baptism of William(1767) to Robert J E Roberts and Jane.
Regards
Roger
Regards
-
I wonder if it might be worthwhile looking at the Llanwnda registers, particularly for the marriage of the suspected parents of Jane Roberts. Is there a suggestion here of two Roberts families ( Those of brothers Robert and John?) living at Ty Eiddew ?
-
My reading was that Robert and John at Ty Eiddew are father and son with the father having a last child William in 1767,and the son having a first child William in 1772 before moving to Bryn Glas before the birth of Robert in 1775.
However,I will see what I can find in Llanwnda.
As an aside for the moment,I think this Robert Roberts may be seen at a properety called Blaen y Cae,Llanwnda in 1851!
Regards
Roger
-
This link has a record for Robert Roberts of Tynewydd, Llanfaglan.
http://www.welshmariners.org.uk/search.php
Search on Roberts and Llanfaglan
He has children, Jane, Ellin and Hugh
David
-
I think he is yet another different Robert Roberts,He is given as born 1765.The one I have been referring to is born 1775.
Regards
Roger
-
Ok - am I right in saying that this narrative would be inconsistent with Jane (Roberts) Daniel being the grand-daughter of Robert J E Roberts ?
-
No,I.m saying the opposite.
My contention is that Jane Daniel nee Roberts is the daughter of John Roberts and Margaret Jones who married iin Llanfaglan in 1772 and had children William(1772),Robert(1775),Richard(1783) and Jane.
John in turn is the son(baptism not identified) of Robert J E Roberts as evidenced by the abode given in William(1772)'s baptism
Further,I am saying this John and Margaret are the couple who died at Ty Newydd.In the will(1827) there is reference to children Robert and Jane.
Regards
Roger
-
I will throw this in folks. The reason I have been searching for a John Roberts as father to Jane Roberts is because it was suggested to me that because Jane was also known as Jane Jones, the likely name of the father for her would be Robert Jones or John Roberts (citing patronymics). When I saw the Roberts family tree had a "John Roberts" in it, born in 1765, I began to suspect he was possibly THE correct father for her, if it could be proven he had a daughter named Jane. That would also make Jane a cousin to Foulk Roberts, which is extensively claimed here in the U.S. Now, perhaps the mariner named Robert Roberts is the correct father of Jane, given that he had a daughter Jane and is associated with Ty Newydd. The only question I would have then was why was my Jane Roberts sometimes referred to as Jane Jones? Could this man's wife (named Phoebe) have been a Jones? Would that have played a role in her being known as Jane Jones? If you can tie Roberts family patriarch Robert John Evan Roberts to Ty Newydd in any way, we may have a real possibility here.
-
Despair and Huwcyn:
Are we able to tie the August 27 1786 baptism of Jane, daughter of John and Margaret to anything
related to what Despair just posted?
-
That is,of course,the record for the Jane that I was proposing..The evidence is "circumstantial" in that there is no abode named/associated with Richard and Jane's birth/ baptisms,even if you accept the move for John and Margaret from Ty Eiddew (John's parental home) for William's birth,to Bryn Glas(their own home?) for Robert,unknown for Richard and Jane and a final home of Ty Newydd.These locations are close and would make sense.
(It is not necessary that couplefrom Ty Eiddew?Bryn Glas are the couple who end up atb Ty Newydd,it is only a suggestion.
The key reverse question is-if John Roberts,husband of Margaret,father of William(1772) at Ty Eiddew is not Robert J E Robert's son,who can he be?
Regards
Roger
-
That seems a plausible connection. The reason I mentioned an inconsistency is that stating that Jane (Roberts ) Daniel was the youngest child of John Roberts and Margaret Jones eliminates 1765 as a birth year for John Roberts. Am I right, Steve, in saying that this is an assumption you've started with, and its probably the only barrier now to making the connections?.
Since a lot of evidence now points to 1765 being too late, I wonder where this information originated. I'll e-mail the relevant tree owner to ask, as things seem to hinge on it. I've checked the 'Goleuad' (Welsh CM journal - still going strong and worth reading ! ) around Oct/Nov 1872, and there is no reference to the death of Jane Daniel. The relevant Welsh American publication would be called 'Y Drych' , but complete runs of it are apparently non-existent. I wonder if these people could help you in that respect :
http://www.britannia.com/wales/wags.html
I might be going past Llanfaglan in the next month or so - I visited the newer church in error recently - so I might have a look at older graveyard.
-
My genealogist friend suggested (correctly, in theory) that a woman named both Jane Roberts and Jane Jones may well have had a father named Robert Jones or John Roberts (citing patronymics).
That having been suggested, I then took the fact that Jane was widely reported as a cousin to Foulk Roberts, a son of Robert Roberts by his second wife, and grand-son of Robert Evan John Roberts. The next step was to check the various public family trees on Ancestry.com. I have been using the Carl Hankwitz version of the Roberts family tree. It is here I found a son of Robert Evan John Roberts, who's name was John Roberts, born in 1765. I have focused on him only because his name would account for Jane being both Roberts and Jones (patronymics), and his reported birth in the year 1765 would allow him to be a father of Jane, born 1786. That is the only reason I have focused on him. I have no other proof to go with in any other direction, other than what you folks have suggested.
I am more than willing and happy to adopt Despair's, DCB's and Huwcyn's findings as the most plausible connection because it would also explain the reason Jane would be known as Jones and Roberts. It also apparently supports a baptism of a Jane Roberts in the late summer of 1786, giving her the proper age, and the only birth for a Jane Roberts I can find in that particular year.
The only thing I have yet to figure out is if all of this accounts for her being a "cousin" of Foulk Roberts. If that jibes with what you all have put out there, I will begin working with this as my most likely scenario and begin using it as my model.
I would like as much evidence as possible that this is all correct. There may still be a few questions, but my intent now is to go back to page one of this thread and begin putting all the theories and evidence together into one cohesive argument that this is fact.
-
My summary of the position is as follows:
The only evidence of the likely birth date for Jane Daniel(nee Jones of Llanfaglan,according to the baptism records of her children,nee Roberts from her marriage record)is from the 1841 census(to be treated with caution because 45 y.o/1786 may be rounded to the nearest 5),and the passage record to USA where she is given as 60 in Aug 1845,i.e born1784/5.
Records are generally of baptism rather than birth which can be any time later,but a working hypothesis for a baptism record is 1784-1786.
Because of the constraint of the cousin relationship to Foulk Roberts and the reference to her as Jane Roberts elsewhere,the favoured record sought is the birth to a John Roberts,son of Robert J E Roberts(aka Robert Jones as per his will of 1795),with patronymic naming giving the reason for the marriage record,and considerations including the nature of database transcribing ("Jane daughter of John Roberts") giving a baptism record of Jane Roberts.
The only record that appears to fulfil these criteria is that of Jane Roberts,1786 Llanfaglan daughter of John and Margaret who may be the same parents of William(1772) "son of John Robert,labourer of Ty Eiddew,and his wife Margaret"
Ty Eiddew is established as the home of Robert J E Roberts at this time by virtue of his own son William's birth there in 1767 and it being his address on his will of 1795.
However,the necessary birth date for such a John Robert(s) is in conflict with published trees.
It is unlikely that he had a second son John(1765,published trees) while the first was living.
No record for the baptism of any son John has been established,but there is a clear reference to such in the 1795 will.No record of a burial or will has been clearly established(The Ty Newydd John Roberts was a mariner)
Further, no sibling relationship has been established between William(1772) and Jane(1786),or with any other possible sibling Robert (1775) and Richard(1783).The possibility of another John and Margaret Roberts in Llanfaglan can not be discounted.
There is no continuity of abode or similar information to identify John and Margaret in these records.
Having said all that there is nothing I can see at the moment by way of a fatal flaw that prevents the 1786 record being appropriate.
Regards
Roger
-
I have created the following "timeline" of events which fit together according to "despair's" theory. Please feel free to copy it and insert any additional facts I may have missed, perhaps in a different color of ink. It's very late here and I'm falling asleep at the moment. This is what I was able to come up with:
1721 Robert Evan John Roberts is born on 5 February at Bryn Glas, Llanfaglan (Hankwitz tree)
1741 Robert E J Roberts marries Jane Jones on 26 December (Hankwitz tree)
1767 William Roberts, youngest son of Robert E J Roberts is born on 17 May (Hankwitz tree)
Baptismal record indicates that the family abode at this time is recorded as Ty Eiddew.
1772 John Roberts, laborer, marries Margaret Jones, spinster, on 18 May (Find My Past)
1772 William Roberts, apparently the first son of John and Margaret Roberts is baptized. The family abode at this time is recorded as Ty Eiddew.
1775 Robert Roberts, the second child of John and Margaret Roberts is baptized. The family abode at this time is recorded as Bryn Glas.
1783 Richard Roberts, the third child of John and Margaret Roberts, is born.
1786 Jane Roberts, the fourth and final child of John and Margaret Roberts, is baptized on 27 August 1786 (“Rootschat” findings). The age on her Wisconsin tombstone upon death on 13 October 1872 reads “86 YEARS.” (Frank Slinger tree - photo of tombstone).
1795 Robert E J Roberts dies at Ty Eiddew on 25 June, age 74 (Hankwitz tree).
1823 Margaret Roberts dies in 1823 and is buried on 31 March. Her age is given as 81, suggesting a birth about 1742. Abode at that time was recorded as Ty Newydd.
1825 John Daniel marries Jane Roberts on 27 July in Llanfaglan. Edward Hughes, Vicar, conducts the ceremony (various records).
1826 John Roberts dies on 26 May at Ty Newydd, age (believed to be) 80, which would suggest a birth about 1746. (Records found through “Rootschat”). He was a widower at the time. Every entry in the burial records on both pages where John and Margaret Roberts’ deaths are registered was signed by Edward Hughes, Vicar.
1827 The Will of John Roberts is proven. It contains references to son Robert Roberts and daughter Jane Roberts and identifies Jane as the executor and benefactor. The will refers to Jane as Roberts and not Daniel, however it is reasonable to assume that women were still often known by their surname at this time. At this time it is not known why Richard and William are not mentioned in the will. It could be that both had died themselves by that time.
An observation: The above timeline would suggest that the parents of Jane Roberts were John and Margaret Roberts. Jane had two children. The names chosen for her son and daughter? John and Margaret. Another coincidence?
A note about the abodes involved here. According to the Welsh census of 1841, Ty Newydd and Bryn Glas can be found on the same page, with only one abode between them. They can both be found in the 1841 Wales census, and according to one source, all three are located closely to one another.
-
The timeline I placed here I pasted from a document I am working on at home. I'm using it as a reference tool to compare events in the lives of people pertinent to this theory. I intend to add more detail as I have the chance to.
In looking at this, what came to my mind was the question raised by Roger, which was "If John Roberts WAS NOT the son of Robert E J Roberts, who was he?" I have a feeling that the owner of the tree I have been following/using as reference, is going to disavow Robert E J Roberts had a son born @1746, as opposed to 1765. His tree is fairly complete and it does not seem like the kind of tree that would have glaring deficiencies. Clearly the Roberts surname and shared residences over the years suggests a family relation. But if not a son, then what?
Then it occurred to me that just maybe John Roberts was the little brother of Robert E J Roberts, which is something I will be looking into. There is an age difference, Robert EJ Roberts being born in 1721 and John being born about 1746, but not a prohibitive difference. My wife's oldest sibling was born in 1938, while she was the youngest at 1962, so clearly 25 years difference in age does not discount this as a possibility. Some real doubting Thomases would say it could be a coincidence, but really?
As a secondary issue I wanted to raise. I have been following up on all of your leads from page 1. Most links I have been able to access, but some sites are premium only. Would you please pass along the web addresses of the sites you used to provide me with information so that I may consider joining them in order to pay for the privilege of viewing and/or documenting records?
I am currently a full paid member of Ancestry.com, including the UK edition. I also became a full-paying member of FindMyPast last night. Any of the records you folks may have gleaned from those websites, I will have paying access to. Any of those other sites you may have used, please provide me with the info necessary to join them as well. If I can swing the cost I'll join...
Thank you all again. Let's keep reviewing our facts to further prove that Despair's theory is in fact a solid hit. Feel free to suggest adding certain dates and/or events to the timeline, and let me know those links.
Kind Regards,
Steve J.
-
Firstly,I would say the theory is more a compilation summary of all the contributions from Huwcyn,DCB etc.
A few comments
I wonder where the 1721 abode for Robert J E Roberts comes from? It seems like a private exchange somewhere-a pity in case it could provide more info e.g whether Robert had a younger brother etc.(there is a Bryn Glas also in nearby Llanwnda in the censuses)
Ty Eiddew only appears to be Robert's abode for his last child.I don't know whether earlier abodes hold any clues.If I have the right records,one looks like Dolagwnion,perhaps Dola Gwyn? and another I can't make anything of-looks a bit like Tyddyn Riffydd or similar.Now you have FindMyPast you can perhaps have a look yourself.
The marriage of John Roberts and Margaret Jones(1772) was Llanbeblig not Llanfaglan-my typo mistake-apologies
Your 1795 line has John... instead of Robert...
The 1827 will for John Roberts has him as a mariner,whereas both the 1772 marriage and birth have John Roberts as a labourer.Even if the John Roberts of the will is the wrong one it doesn't necessarily invalidate the 1786 record for Jane,obviously.
Finding the identity and baptism/death of the John referred to as the father of William in 1772 is key as per Huwcyn's previous comment(and perhaps finding the record of 1765 from the published tree)
Regards
Roger
-
I believe Huwcyn was going to contact someone working on a Roberts tree to question sources and verification. That's incumbant on the tree "owner" offering a response. I'm sure she hasn't heard yet or we would have been notified. I have contacted a different researcher of this Roberts line but he is only interested in his branch, which doesn't seem to include any of my immediate family.
I have been looking over several Robert Evan John Roberts trees on Ancestry.com, seeking information from those. It appears that many of those trees mirror each other verbatum. Now whether that's nine people copying what a tenth has posted, well, valid question? The one "main tree" I've consulted is the Hankwitz tree, and his profile of Robert E J Roberts simply lists Bryn Glas as Robert's birthplace. As this is all still developing, I have not yet had the chance to go back and attempt to obtain verification or cite sources. As you may've been able to tell by what I posted last night, I was half asleep, but didn't want to stop working on it.
Verification and sources and copying documents, etc., is all still ahead of me, but at least now I feel like we have something that looks promising, but needs testing before we can say with some comfort that we accept these connections as fact. That's a lot more than I had a couple months ago, when all I knew was that my ggg grandmother was named Jane Roberts, so I am pretty happy with the results thus far, even in the cases where promising possibilities have turned into no dice.
My goal at the moment is to assemble all the little bits and pieces into some semblance of a "summary" as you call it and allow it to try and stand the test of trial and time. I may never know for sure, but I now feel like I will include all of your summary in my history of this family if for no other reason than to give those who follow me something to go on or at least continue to look into, which is a lot more than I had to go on.
I should also mention that I have placed an ad among local libraries for the borrowing of a book on the history of the Welsh who settled in Wisconsin, and I specifically mean this very group including John Daniel, Jane Roberts and her "family" - Hugh and Foulk Roberts. It's 73 pages long, and I am awaiting the response of several libraries as to whether or not they're going to send a copy to me. I have no idea what could be in these pages. Perhaps further elaboration on the relationship Jane Roberts had with the other Roberts. Also, I am trying to find any trace of Jane's death certificate which hopefully will bear and exact date of birth and possibly parent's names.
-
'Early history of the Welsh in the Proscairon district of Wisconsin ' ?
-
On page 16, the book states that Thomas Robert Roberts ( brother of Foulk Roberts) was an uncle of the Rev John Robert Daniel. It also states that John Daniel and family arrived at the Welsh Prairie district on 24/09/1845.
J R Daniel relates that they arrived at Blaen y Cae in October 1845, and that the first chap he saw was Thomas Robert Roberts. Catherine Foulkes then ran out of a nearby building, and embraced the elder John Daniel. Its quite difficult not to be moved when you read some of the material, particularly if you know the background of the families and the area they migrated from .
A letter to a chap called Hugh Davies Foulkes from his sister (at home in llanddeiniolen) sends greetings to John and jane daniel. H D Foulkes was a nephew of catherine Foulkes , and both H D F and his sister were coincidentally grandchildren of R J E Roberts by his first marriage to Mary Williams .
John Daniel (presumably the elder) is referred to as being the 'patriarch' of the settlement, and
the book recounts how he started a Temperance movement in the area with great fervour.
-
That's the book Huwcyn. I have a copy of it written in Welsh, but found several in nearby libraries that was transcribed into English. I've seen the first seven pages, which were attached as a document to the Roberts tree I cited on Ancestry.com. I even tried writing one sentence at a time into a Welsh to English translation website and gained some knowledge.
A Thomas Roberts, age 8, was enumerated with the Daniel family in the 1850 Wisconsin census and I've always wondered who's kid he was. I believe I traced him to being the son of Dafydd Roberts, Foulk's brother.
Who was it you wrote to about the Roberts tree? Was it Carl Hankwitz?
Any thoughts Huwcyn on the timeline I posted?
-
Huwcyn:
Based on what you shared from "The Early History of the Welsh in the Proscairon District of Wisconsin," it would suggest the following:
Rev. John Robert Daniel (born 1826) was related to the following people in the following ways:
Jane Daniel - his Mom
John Daniel - his Dad
Thomas Roberts - his Uncle
Thomas Roberts' brother, Foulk Roberts - his Uncle
That relationship, as laid out, would indicate that Jane and Thomas and Foulk were first cousins, all of the same generation, and all Roberts. Presumably, all three would've been the grandchildren of Robert John Evan Roberts. At least that's the way I would read it.
If that were the case then that would mean while Thomas and Foulk were the children of Robert Roberts, Jane would've been the child of one of his brothers, which brings us back to the sons of Robert John Evan Roberts and Jane Jones, who were reported in the Hankwitz tree as follows:
John Roberts, reportedly born in 1765
William Roberts, reportedly born in 1767
Funny, when I look at the ages of those involved here, you have two men (Thomas and Foulk), one born in 1820 and the other born in 1826, and both are said to be uncles of a third man (John Robert Daniel) born in 1826. I think we commonly think of uncles as quite a bit older than we, yet in the dynamics of a family tree, you never know. For instance, my wife is an aunt to several nieces and nephews who are older than she.
In many respects, this brings us back to where I started all of this: John Roberts (according to the Hankwitz tree, born in 1765)...or...(according to the combined findings of my friends on Rootschat), a John Roberts born much earlier, approximately 1746, a year that would make him one of the first children of Robert John Evan Roberts and Jane Jones, who were married in 1741.
Footnote:
Huwcyn. I hope it's alright with you, I added a photo of Llanfaglan Church credited to you, posted on the Hankwitz tree website, to my tree and placed a copy in the file for both John and Jane Daniel, as they were married in Llanfaglan. You have the credit attached for the photo.
-
I have found a number of other records that appear relevant but I'm not sure how they fit into the picture.
1.There is a burial record for Jane Roberts,Ty Eiddaw,1766-1834
This looks like the daughter from the 1795 will? However I can't find an equivalent baptism.Whether this increases the likelihood of a John(1765) I don't know.
2.Perhaps I am missing something but the 1760s records need careful scrutiny again I think.
In trying to "verify" the Hankwitz tree,I have found baptismal records that "by and large" reflect the list up to Ellin(1761) with parents Robert Jones("Taylor") and Jane his wife.All are listed under Jones.The address is usually Tyddyn Ruffidd or similar,which I can't identify.(there is a Tyddyn Rhyddid in Llanbeblig which has some records associated with a John Evan,see possible similarity of name/addresses later)
3.There then appears a number of records similar to the tree with Anne,Elizabeth,Ellin daughters of
Robert John Evan (Clarke) being buried in 1763.There are previous LLanfaglan records with John Evan(and wife Mary) being the "parish clarke".I think he dies in 1753 and she in 1766.
4.The trail "resumes" with William(1767),again listed as Jones,son of Robert("farmer") and Jane of Ty Eiddaw.
5.Meanwhile,though the address is somewhat indistinct there appears to be a baptismal 1755 record for Robert and Ellis Jones,sons of John Thomas of Ty Eiddew(?) and his wife Mary Roberts.
6.Just to help matters along there appears to be a "Ty Eiddaw"(preference for the "a"?) in Llanfaglan and a "Ty Eiddew"(preference for the "e"?) in nearby Llanbeblig(both listed in 1841 census.
Plenty of scope for confusion..........particularly on my part.
Regards
Roger
-
I also noticed Despair that when looking at the tree you mentioned, two of the girls are given birthdates about a week apart from each other. Quite a feat, to say the least, for the young mother...
I think we must continue to gather all the evidence and cannot rule anything out, including the possibility that the tree I've been consulting may have inaccuracies. Very little in genealogy is 100% when you get back to a certain time and beyond.
I will continue to hold with your "summary" of events and use that as the guage by which to compare and dissect other information. Don't overlook the fact that Huwcyn, last night, quoted a page from a book that I am about to gain possession of which clearly states that John and Jane Daniel's son, John Robert Daniel, was a nephew to Foulk Roberts and Thomas Roberts, which puts Jane in their generation as a first cousin.
Keep digging, and so shall I.
Regards,
Welshpride
-
Bear in mind that what we often refer to as 'birth dates' are probably baptism ( often delayed) dates, so the young mother might not be quite so busy !
-
Yesterday I received a copy of a book entitled, "Early History of the Welsh in the Proscairon District of Wisconsin" by Daniel Williams (copyright 1894).
I immediately began reading it, and although I'd heard from others about the Roberts-Daniel relationships discussed within the pages, this was the first time I actually got to see it for myself.
I cannot tell you how cool it is to actually have documented interviews and commentary attributed to the ancestors I have been seeking information on for over a dozen years. Before, I had names and dates on a piece of paper, but reading actual quotes and stories told by my great great grandfather John Robert Daniel and others gives life and personality to those names.
As my peers in Wales continue to uncover new names and possible connections to my family tree I can now add some form of verification to what we've been discussing. While there is much we still do not know or cannot verify, I think it is important that we do not lose sight of what can be fairly relied upon with a good deal of conviction. That having been said, the pages of the book I've read thus far have these details to share:
Reverend Thomas Hugh Roberts
Reverend Thomas Hugh Roberts (1824-1880) is quoted on page 20 as referring to John Daniel as "my uncle." It has been repeatedly documented in various biographies and online trees that Thomas Hugh Roberts was the son of Hugh Roberts (1788-1865).
Hugh "Huw" Roberts
Hugh Roberts (1788-1865) is mentioned extensively in this publication. He gives a personal account of his life in which he states that at the age of 15 his parents moved the family from Braichwen to Blaen Y Cae (this personal account would seem to refute the claims on some trees that he was born at Blaen y Cae). He further states that his parents joined the congregation at Blaenrug Chapel. He was wed to Mary Jones, who has been linked (at birth) to Tan-y-Buarth, Llanddeiniolen. Hugh was about 60 years of age at the time he brought his family to the United States. The home they left behind on the voyage was recorded as Tan-y-Buarth, Llanddeiniolen. It has been written in various resources that Hugh Roberts was a relative of Jane Roberts-Daniel.
Thomas Robert Roberts
Thomas Robert Roberts (1826-1912) was a younger, half-brother to Hugh Roberts. While Hugh was a product of the first marriage of Robert Roberts to Mary Williams, Thomas was a product of his second marriage, to Cathrine Foulkes. In the publication I now have in my possession it is recorded that Thomas Robert Roberts was an uncle to John Robert Daniel, son of John and Jane Daniel. As Foulk Roberts was Thomas' brother, that would make Foulk an uncle to John Robert Daniel, as well.
Following these relationships as described, it is also plain to see that Jane Roberts was in fact a first cousin of Foulk and Thomas and Hugh Roberts, meaning she had to have been born to a brother of their father, Robert Roberts (1752-1832).
What has developed here is you can see how the generations stack up, whom is a part of each generation, and how the Daniel and Roberts families are tied to each other, as follows:
Generation 1
Robert Roberts (1752-1832)
Generation 2 (all cousins)
Hugh Roberts (1788-1865) - His son by first wife
Thomas Robert Roberts (1826-1912) - His son by second wife
Foulk Robert Roberts (1820-1908) - His son by second wife
Jane Daniel nee: Roberts (1786-1872) - Niece to Robert Roberts
John Daniel (1791-1859) - Jane's husband, referred to as "uncle" of Thomas Roberts, generation 3
Generation 3
Reverend Thomas Hugh Roberts (1824-1880) - Son of Hugh, referred to John Daniel as "uncle"
Reverend John Robert Daniel (1826-1898) - Son of John and Jane Daniel, referred to Thomas Roberts of Generation 2 as an uncle
There has been much written about the ancestral relationships and families of these people back in Wales, with many unanswered questions and mysteries yet to be resolved, but regardless, what has emerged to me from the pages of this book is a much clearer understanding of the relationships between these people once they set foot in the United States, and it is clear to me that despite what questions remain about her origins, Jane Roberts was in fact a niece of Robert Roberts, therefore a daughter of one of his brothers, whether that was John Roberts (b. 1765) or whomever. Taking it one step further, Jane would be the granddaughter of Robert John Evan Roberts and his wife, Jane Jones.
-
Another interpretation,which has it's drawback(Jane Jones reference) is that Thomas Hugh Roberts calls John Daniel "uncle"because Jane Daniel is his aunt by virtue of being Hugh's sister as per DCB's record of 1785(Robert and Mary of Fachwen).I know you have a death for this Jane in the early 1800s presumably from the same tree as before, which gives 1804.It may be me again but I cannot reconcile that death and,indeed, have a different version of Jane and Hugh's other siblings.Hopefully Huwcyn can cast some light on this Jane?
Regards
Roger
-
There is a grave at Llanddeiniolen which is marked as being the grave of Jane Roberts , Blaen y Cae , died 25/12/1804. There are a lot of graves associated with the Blaen Y Cae family in the same area.
-
Thanks Huwcyn.After doing a trial of different names,I've concluded that FindMyPast has no transcribed burials for Llanddeiniolen 1793-1812.
Regards
Roger
-
The discovery of a grave for that particular Jane Roberts (thanks Huwcyn) would support that my Jane is related to Hugh as a cousin via because one of his uncles is her father.
-
THE MYSTERY HAS BEEN SOLVED!!! THE FATHER OF JANE ROBERTS DANIEL WAS.....
I was researching through some biographies this evening documented in "The Early History of the Welsh in the Proscairon District of Wisconsin" by Daniel Williams (copyright 1894), and came upon the following excerpt from a brief biography of Catharine Foulkes:
"At the end of the 18th century there were two brothers living in Llanddeiniolen, Caernarvonshire - Robert and John Roberts. The daughter of John was the mother of the Rev. J. R. Daniel. Robert's children were Hugh Roberts of Proscairon, Wisconsin and Ann, the mother of H. D. Foulkes and Robert Davies of Cambria (Wisconsin). Many of the descendants have remained in the Old Country. The great grandson of the above-mentioned Robert Roberts is the Rev. T. Gwynedd Roberts of Rhostryfan, the Secretary of the Northern Gymanfa of the Calvinistic Methodists in Wales. The wife of the above-mentioned Robert Roberts died, and he married for a second time to Catrin Ffowc...She died on May 15, 1871 at the age of 83."
I'm not sure how this stacks up to the various public trees out there regarding the Roberts family, which I've been consulting, but THIS, THIS is the smoking gun I have been searching for with all of your help. So after all the thoughts and theories it turns out very simply, John Roberts was the brother of Robert Roberts, and the father of Jane Roberts, who gave birth to John Robert Daniel.
Having this information has made this lengthy effort all the more gratifying, but there is still much to try and figure out. For instance, no mention is made of Jane Roberts' mother. I also would like to continue to try and verify that the generations which precede John Roberts are in fact the correct ancestors (i.e. - Robert John Evan Roberts). For now though, this is cause for celebration.
Thank you for your continued contributions to this cause.
Welshpride!
-
There is still much to do reference the Roberts family of Llanddeiniolen and Llanfaglan. I have been accumulating dates and data regarding the descendants of Robert Jones (otherwise known as Robert John Evan Roberts). I will have an updated list in the near future. For now, for those who have been assisting me, I wanted to note this reference to the inhabitants of the abode of interest for this family:
I was browsing the baptism and church records and happened across this entry: Robert, the son of John Williams, farmer of Tyddyn Eiddaw and Elin Lloyd his wife was baptized January 30th. This was in 1762, a time in the midst of a twenty year period when the Roberts were living at the abode known as Tyddyn Ruffydd (or whatever it was called).
-
The 1760s are obviously a critical time.The records for Tyddyn Ruffydd(or similar) go to Anne in 1759 as far as I can see.The abode for Ellin(1761) is illegible(I'll try again to decipher it).The 1763 record for Elizabeth's burial gives Tyddyn y Dola Gwnion(or similar)(transcribed under "Clarke") and it is not until William in 1767 is Ty Eiddaw/Eiddew found,with a possibility that there might be John(1765 Hankwitz tree) and Jane(1766,birth from burial record) in between.
This is not inconsistent with your finding.Interesting question,though,are the two families related?
Regards
Roger
-
The way I see it, there is one of three possible resolutions to the mystery:
1) The John Roberts who apparently died at the age of 80 is the correct individual, meaning the tree we refer to is incorrect. The age of 80 would have him born about 1746, which would immediately follow the death of the first Elizabeth.
2) The age of the John Roberts who died in 1826 was actually 60, not 80, which would place his birth year squarely upon 1765. This is in doubt due to the age of Margaret, the woman of the house who was 81 when she died.
3) Neither of these John Roberts is correct.
We can guess all we want, but I don't think we'll know anything further until we hear from the owner of the tree in question and find out what he based his birth year of 1765 on.
I do believe this family and John are related, not two separate families. The booklet I found the key reference to clearly identified my John as the brother of Robert Roberts, whose parents have been proven to be Robert and Jane Jones.
Also, John was the first son noted in the elder Robert Jones' will and he was left a colt and a cow, which would support the likelihood that he was a farmer. Robert was also mentioned, and was charged with the care of Grace, who must've been a spinster or she wouldn't have needed taking care of.
I would be more concerned if John was the only child not noted in the baptisms, but Jane likewise is missing a baptism.
Steve
-
...And for what it's worth, I would love to be able to help the gentleman update his tree, as we are now apparently distant cousins of some sort. After all the help I've received on this site it would be nice to be able to help someone else.
-
What follows is a comprehensive update on some of the new details to be found in the tree of descendants of Robert Jones (occasionally referred to as Robert John Evan Roberts) and his wife, Jane Jones. It is based entirely on transcripts located in various church and legal documents:
26 December 1741: Robert Jones and Jane Jones were married.
May 1742 (exact date illegible): Grace, the daughter of Robert and Jane Jones was baptized.
12 May and 23 May 1745: Elizabeth, the daughter of Robert Jones (taylor or tailor) of Tyddyn (second portion of abode is illegible) and Jane, his wife, was baptized on the 12th and buried on the 23rd of May.
11 November 1748: Elizabeth, the daughter of Robert Jones (taylor or tailor) of Tyddyn (illegible) and Jane, his wife, was baptized on the 11th of November.
5 May 1751: Robert, son of Robert Jones of Tyddyn (illegible) (taylor or tailor) and Jane, his wife, was baptized on the 5th of May.
3 April 1757: William, the son of Robert Jones of Tyddyn (illegible) and Jane Jones, his wife, was baptized on the 3rd day of April in the year 1757.
5 June 1757: William, the son of Robert Jones of Tydyn (illegible) was buried on the 5th day of June.
25 January 1759: Anne, the daughter of Robert Jones of Tydyn (illegible) and Jane Jones, his wife, was baptized on the 25th day of January.
2 August 1761: Ellin, the daughter of Robert Jones (taylor or tailor) and Jane Jones, his wife, was baptized the 2nd of August.
29 July 1763: Elizabeth Roberts, daughter of Robert John Evan of Tyddyn-y-(?Gwnion) was buried the 29th of July.
7 August 1763: Anne and Ellin, daughters of the said Robert John Evan (clarke), were buried August the 7th.
17 May 1767: Willliam, the son of Robert Jones of Tyddyn Eiddaw, farmer and Jane his wife, was baptized the 17th day of May.
24 June 1795: Robert John Evan of Ty Eiddaw, was buried.
(6th day of unknown month) 1800: Jane Jones, wife of Robert Jones, Ty Eiddaw, was buried.
-
I think the abode in 1763 is Tyddyn y Dola Gwnion,which may be the current Dolau Gwyn listed in Rhostryfan.
Regards
Roger
-
Just to add more facts to this line, I have located the record of burial for Grace Roberts. It appeared obvious to me from their father's will when Robert Roberts was placed in charge of his sister's welfare that she must've been a spinster at the time (1795). Apparently, she died that way. Grace Roberts of Ty Eiddaw was buried on 24 June 1816.
We are beginning to narrow down the lifetimes of the children of Robert Jones (RJER) and Jane Jones:
1742 - 1816 - Grace Roberts
1745 - 1745 - Elizabeth Roberts
1748 - 1763 - Elizabeth Roberts
1751 - 1832 - Robert Roberts
1757 - 1757 - William Roberts
1759 - 1763 - Anne Roberts
1761 - 1763 - Ellin Roberts
Now to complete John, Jane and the second William, born in 1767. Also, to find out the birthdates for Robert Jones (died 1795) and wife Jane Jones (died 1800). We know they were married in 1741. The tree states that Robert was baptized or born at Bryn Glas on 5 February 1721, but I have not been able to find that record. Such specifics however lead me to believe there is a record somewhere. Also, the tree naming 1719 for Jane Jones' birth or baptism in Merionethshire. Such specifics and a completely different community. I cannot imagine where this information originated from.
-
I will here add another interesting find, brought to my attention by DCB. There is an archival database at http://isys.llgc.org.uk which records the following information:
Henry Rumsey Williams
Pt. 2 of schedule
Deeds - Caernarfonshire
Deeds, accounts, etc., relating to properties, etc., in Caernarfonshire
No. 765
11 June 1801
John Roberts of Bryn Glas, Llanfaglan, slate loader
The interesting connection here, setting it apart from any other "John Roberts of Llanfaglan" is the reference to Bryn Glas, which was the location of the 1721 birth of John's father, recorded in the C.H. family tree. Perhaps, if this is the correct John, he at this time was living in one of the family's ancestral homes?
-
The burial record for William Roberts reads as follows:
William Roberts of Ty Eiddaw was buried on 10 July 1844. The age of 80 would be inconsistent with a 1767 birth, being three years too many, however it is possible that the age was estimated if the officiant registering the record did not have that information at hand. Certainly the abode leaves little doubt that this is the correct William.
I have searched for the marriage or burial of John's sister, Jane Roberts, and turned up only two marriages, one of which being my ggg grandmother Jane Roberts, marrying John Daniel. The other is a record immediately prior to that entry in the marriage registry, and that was a Jane Roberts marrying William Jones on 23 May 1825. It is stated that the marriage was solemnized with the blessing of the parents, but Jane's parents would've been deceased. It is interesting to note that one of the witnesses was Robert Roberts.
So, the birth, marraiges and burials of Jane Roberts, daughter of Robert and Jane Jones, and John Roberts, son of the same, remain shrouded in mystery, but at least the profiles of the remaining family are filling in nicely.
-
There is a burial record for Jane Roberts of Ty Eiddaw,Llanfaglan with dates given as 1766-1834.This seems likely to be the daughter,but I don't know if she would have been a spinster or whether there is any naming convention allows her to have been married,but buried,perhaps as a widow,under her maiden name(unless she married a Roberts of course).
(Perhaps,also she might be a different Jane,wife of William?)
Grace may have been a spinster,but there are certainly two records of her giving birth to illegitimate children by two different individuals(Evan with Evan Williams,1780)(Richard with Ellis Prichard Ellis,1774).
Regards
Roger
-
Well that little tart, Grace!
I may've found what cinches for me the tie-in with the John and Margaret Roberts of Ty Newydd.
I found under burials, Thomas Roberts, the son of Robert Roberts and Mary Williams. The baptism and burial dates match his vital records. His burial took place on 27 April 1824 at age 44.
THE ABODE HE WAS A RESIDENT OF AT THE TIME OF DEATH WAS TY NEWYDD. Thomas would've been a nephew to John and Margaret Roberts of Ty Newydd, and the date places him squarely IN BETWEEN her death in 1823 and his in 1826. Furthermore, although I would have to go through it all again, I began a vague search page by page through the parish records from throughout this period and the John and Margaret Roberts of Ty Newydd are the only couple I can find. This of course means that if they are the correct John and Margaret, not only did they have Jane and a son Robert (according to John's will), but they also had sons Richard and William. Incidently, in looking at the baptismal entry for Richard Roberts, dated 12 January 1783, the immediate entry under it is for the burial of Anne Roberts on the same date. There is nothing else taking place in that parish for days between. Makes me wonder if Richard and Anne were twins, he lived and she didn't? This we'll never know because the parish clarke did not record the names of the parents, but it is curious.
Despair-I will have to go back and check 1766 again for Jane. I thought I did once but didn't see her. I'll check again.
-
Additional burials noted at the abodes in question:
Ty Newydd
William Thomas, 5 weeks, 23 February 1813 (I was thinking this could be the son of Thomas Roberts, who, through patronymics, could become William Thomas.
Owen Jones, 29 September 1828
Ty Eiddaw
Grace Roberts, 24 June 1816
Owen ???, Age 1, 21 September 1832
For those whose names don't seem to fit, it may be that they were servants or hired hands?
-
If I am looking at the same record,Thomas Roberts is of Ty Newydd,Landdeiniolen,whereas John and Margaret Roberts were of Ty Newydd,Llanfaglan.Ty Newydd is an extremely common name and often there are more than one even in the same district.
Please check again(in case I am looking at a different record).
Regards
Roger
-
Looks like you are correct Despair. I got so excited when I saw the name Ty Newydd that I never even considered that the two were in separate locations. What the heck chance is there of that happening? Thomas Roberts is the correct son for Robert Roberts, and he lives in a home named Ty Newydd, the same as his likely uncle does in a separate parish? Well, back to square one again! I guess we're getting no where fast.
-
We've seen where the Roberts family in Wales named their home Blaen y Cae, and then when they came to America, also named their new home Blaen y Cae. Is it possible that Ty Newydd meant enough to the Roberts family that they could have used the name in both locations? It's still circumstantial, but I also still think that this makes it even more likely they were family, even if not in the same household.
-
I think it is just a coincidence.I wouldn't be surprised if the name was the most common name for a dwelling,simply beng the equivalent of "new house".
Regards
Roger
-
It is a common name, and I suspect that there are three or four 'Ty Newydd' s in Llanddeiniolen. I have the MIs for Llanddeiniolen, and I cannot find the grave of Thomas Roberts. One can only assume that the gravestone has been destroyed. Carl's tree only records that Thomas Roberts died in 1824.
However, Thomas Roberts had a brother called Robert R Roberts, who died at Blaen y Cae in 1836. I've alluded already to his rather splendidly named son ( R R R Roberts) , but he had another son called Hugh. On this son's grave, it is mentioned that he lived at 'Ty Newydd, Blaen y Cae'.
Incidentally, in reference to another earlier point, Mary Williams (wife of Robert Roberts ) is referred to by that name on her grave.
-
Indeed,in the 1841 census there are 6 or possibly 7(allowing for mis transcription) "Ty Newydd"s listed under Llanddeiniolen.
They don't have sequential schedule numbers,so not obviously"houses of multiple occupation".
Regards
Roger
-
Well, since we are back at square one...
We have written confirmation that Jane Roberts father was John Roberts, and that he was the brother of Robert Roberts, therefore the sons of Robert Jones and Jane Jones. Jane, and two of Robert's sons were repeatedly linked in published histories as cousins.
In looking through the pages of the baptisms, marriages and burials for Llanfaglan, I can only find five references to a couple identified as John Roberts and his wife Margaret (surname at marriage was Jones). There's a marriage record, subsequently followed by four baptism records.
Two of the children credited to this couple are Robert and Jane (via the 1827 proved will of John Roberts), a third child, William, was baptized at Ty Eiddew, which would seem to form a link there. I have not been able to find anything further on Richard, beyond the baptizmal record.
I've analized the page containing the ink blot which obscures the correct age at death for John Roberts in the burial entry. I magnified the numeral in question until it was as big as I could make it. When doing this, a very, very fine pen stroke can be seen coming out of the left side of the ink blot, which is present in the other number "8"s written on several pages by this official. The number cannot be a three, as someone suggested 30, because the bottom is a closed loop, not open. It can only be one of two numbers - 60 or 80. I'm guessing the C.H. tree used 60 as an age and therefore ended up at 1765. I'll say it says 80 and therefore this particular John Roberts was born in 1746, died at 80, and was preceded in death by his wife three years earlier, at the age of 81.
This couple were named John and Margaret...Jane's only two children were named John and Margaret.
This would also make John Roberts the first son born to Robert Jones and Jane Jones, followed by surviving sons Robert and William. The sons addressed in the will went from John to Robert to William (I'm suggesting the wil imitated life - the three surviving sons were bequeathed things oldest to youngest).
Based on the naming convention of the day, it would not be unusual for the first son to the above-named couple being named "John."
There's also the reference in deeds records dated 1801 to John Roberts of Bryn Glas. Robert Roberts, second son born to John and Margaret Roberts, was baptized at Bryn Glas.
Abodes attributed on various records to John Roberts were dated as follows:
1772 - Ty Eiddew
1775 - Bryn Glas
1801 - Bryn Glas
1823 - Ty Newydd
1826 - Ty Newydd
Some abodes attributed on various records to Robert Jones, John's father:
1721 - Bryn Glas
1741 - Tyddyn Eiddaw
1767 - Tyddyn Eiddaw
According to the 1841 Welsh Census, there is a Ty Newydd and Bryn Glas to be found on the same page, separated by one abode. There is also a reference on the tombstone of one of the Roberts family members as "Ty Newydd Blaen Cae" (Blaen Cae being the abode of the Roberts family during the early to mid-1800s).
There may be other circumstantial links but at the moment my brain hurts, so I'll say goodnight for now.
-
Has there been anyone who has found more than one Ty Eiddaw other than the variant in spellings (Eiddaw, Eiddew, Ieddew, etc.)?
-
There appears to be an entry in the 1841 census for Llanbeblig(HO107 1394 8/46 10),which is concurrent with the one in Llanfaglan(HO 107 1394 12/6 6).I cannot currently find similar parallel addresses in later censuses.I'll see if I can identify two such properties on old maps.
Regards
Roger
-
It's just that since there seems to be a number of Ty Newydd's, I just wanted to eliminate any confusion over Ty Eiddew. If there is only one in the parish, then we know we're dealing with just one abode.
-
I've asked my friend to review the various baptism and burial entries for the offspring of Robert Jones with an eye towards understanding the correct spelling and definition of the name of the two abodes the family lived in from about 1750-1770. As I'd hoped, he has reviewed these spellings and has offered the following:
I read the register entries as Tyddyn Ruffudd and Tyddyn y Dola gwnion
I don't think there is any doubt about the Tyddyn Ruffudd references despite the somewhat idiosyncratic handwriting. Tyddyn Ruffudd translates as "Griffith's smallholding", the Welsh form of Griffith being correctly Gruffudd (u pronounced like English i) and the initial G being lost because of rules of mutation which apply in the language to amend or omit certain letters at the beginning of words in certain circumstances.
Tyddyn y Dola gwnion is, I believe, a name which would now be written Tyddyn y Dolau Gwynion and it translates as "The smallholding of the White Meadows". Very poetic. It seems to be a different place from Tyddyn Ruffudd, unless (not impossibly) it was known by both names.
I feel confident in these interpretations. Now to try and find out if they still existed in Llanfaglan at the time of the 1841 census? The only way to do that is find all the entries for the 1841 Llanfaglan census and check every single page for abodes by these names.
I will be leaving on a two-week holiday at the beginning of this week, so I'm not sure how much I will be able to post, however, if I can monitor responses to this website I certainly will try to keep up.
-
Welshpride, Not trying to muddy the waters, but this thread came up on a search I was doing and there are a lot of what may still be coincidences. My ggggrandfather was also Robert Roberts. He was born 1787, location unknown. In the 1841 census he is in Conwy with his family, wife Elizabeth, children Richard, William, Robert, Grace, Jane, Mary, Elizabeth, Margaret and baby Moses. They immigrated roughly around 1848 and are in the 1850 WI census in Dodgeville with Richard, Elizabeth, Margaret, and Moses. Jane, Grace and Mary are married at this point and I know where they went. I believe he is buried in Cambria, WI where Grace and her husband farmed for 30 years before going on to Oregon to join her sisters Jane and Mary. http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSln=Roberts&GSiman=1&GSsr=121&GScid=2288331&GRid=33097065& as the dates are right and Elizabeth is buried in the same plot. On his tombstone is inscribed, "BrynGlas" which is why your thread came up in this search.
Jennifer
PS Roger you were right, Gwen is the mother of Winnie, not the sister of Moses.
-
There was a Tyddyn y Dolau Gwynion in Llanfaglan. It then became Tyddyn y Dolau, then Bont Faen. It was derelict since the late 1800s until about 1998, and is now known as Tyddyn Dafydd.