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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Northumberland => Topic started by: Duodecem on Monday 10 June 13 09:53 BST (UK)
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In 1851 my 3x great grandfather was a farm labourer in Ketteringham. In 1861, aged 65, he had moved to Earsdon Northumberland with his wife, the youngest of his 14 children and a grandson. He remained a farm labourer but the two young men were coal miners. Other members of his family, sons, daughters, nephews and nieces also travelled North, settling in either Northumberland or County Durham. In each case the men worked as miners or as labourers in related industries. Some moved with their Norfolk spouses others found partners in their new home.
I haven't followed all the families but so far I haven't found a record of any returning to Norfolk. (The exodus seems to have escaped oral history-my late mother was unaware that any of the family had ever left the county. )
I assume that changes in agriculture and lack of employment opportunities drove the families northwards. Presumably it was fairly easy to travel in returning coal barges.Was this a common occurrence or were my ancestors unusual?
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In 1862 there was a terrible disaster in a nearby coalmine:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hartley_Colliery_Disaster
Hoping your relative wasn't working there at the time. The bodies were buried in Earsdon churchyard.
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What a horrific accident. I don't think any of my family members were among the fatalities, one died in 1863 aged 28 which could have been due to an accident but obviously not that one. It shows how desperate they must have been. 19th century farm work was undeniably hard but surely it was safer than mining.
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What family name are you looking at,
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Osborne, mainly.
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I think it's all down to economics and the 2nd Industrial Revolution?
With more and more farms using machinery, there were fewer and fewer Ag Lab jobs available.
But with more and more coal needed to fuel the Industrial Revolution, there were lots of jobs in, and around mines.
And these jobs were (relatively speaking) well paid?
My own family migrated from Wiltshire to the South Wales mines, via the Bristol Coal Field.
Another branch travelled from Kent to South Wales.
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I have numerous Norfolk/Suffolk families in my extended genealogy. All relocated to County Durham.
Box - Shouldham, Norfolk
Doy - Edgefield, Norfolk
Gedge - Briggate Mill, Norfolk
Owers - Mildenhall, Suffolk
Wilby - Burgate, Suffolk and surrounding area
I would imagine they came to County Durham by train.
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In 1851 my 3x great grandfather was a farm labourer in Ketteringham. In 1861, aged 65, he had moved to Earsdon Northumberland with his wife, the youngest of his 14 children and a grandson. He remained a farm labourer but the two young men were coal miners. Other members of his family, sons, daughters, nephews and nieces also travelled North, settling in either Northumberland or County Durham. In each case the men worked as miners or as labourers in related industries. Some moved with their Norfolk spouses others found partners in their new home.
I haven't followed all the families but so far I haven't found a record of any returning to Norfolk. (The exodus seems to have escaped oral history-my late mother was unaware that any of the family had ever left the county. )
I assume that changes in agriculture and lack of employment opportunities drove the families northwards. Presumably it was fairly easy to travel in returning coal barges.Was this a common occurrence or were my ancestors unusual?
Hello Janfurness,
It was extremely common for the starving labourers of Norfolk (in particular) to be recruited by the agents working for the mills, mines, and docks further North (and South).
The would be new employers paid for the removal of the family and sorted out such things as legal documents for settlement. Settlement certificates were a must in the 19th century. Without one, you could not stay. This outlay had to be repaid, however, and there are many tales of wives whose husbands who later died or were injured, but the family still had to pay back those removal expenses.
That, and the fact that many men were paid in company tokens which they could only spend at the company owned shops, meant that families were in hock for generations. Hence, few of them were able to return to Norfolk. Some, like my grandfather, Robert Dack, however, managed to escape. I am still trying to work out how he was able to take his wife and large family from Newcastle to London in 1878-1881.
The company token scheme was eventually outlawed by the introduction of the Truck Acts which made it illegal not to pay someone in Coin of the Realm if they so demanded. This part of the Act was removed under Margaret Thatcher's regime to "facilitate cashless pay". Nowadays, one cannot insist on being paid wages in cash.
It was not changes in agriculture that caused this exodus, but the fact that Norfolk was extremely poor in general, the soil particularly barren, and many people starved or died very young of disease in the 18th and 19th centuries. A look at church registers will tell you that. Most aglabs were dayworkers and/or owned a small amount of not very good land upon which they and their large families subsisted. The mine, mill, and dock owner's agents were a godsend to many of them.
A complicated subject but I hope I have pulled away some of the mystery.
Vicwinann
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Thanks Vicwinann, that's answered a lot of my questions-and raised a few more!. According to the census most of the men were described as Agricultural Labourers, so presumably were day labourers with little or no job security. I hadn't realised Norfolk was such a poor county in the C19th.
My theory of simply hopping on a barge and travelling North for work is obviously wrong as well.
Settlement certificates were a must in the 19th century. Without one, you could not stay.
Were these certificates to prevent vagrants travelling around the country? Did you need proof of work before you could obtain one?
The grandson came back quite quickly but the son and other members of the extended family stayed in the north. I assumed they chose to settle there-I didn't realise that they were trapped. One family obviously did quite well, the head of the house, a colliery worker in 1861 and 1871 was a farmer with 44 acres by 1881, but most remained mineworkers.
Moderator comment: topics merged to keep all information together.
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Re barryd's post- Obviously my ancestors weren't unusual in travelling north. I have Gedge in my tree but they were from Old Buckenham and mainly carpenters, so probably not related to your Gedge ancestors. I wonder if there are still Osbornes in the area who can be traced back to Norfolk.
As for transport- the coal barge idea was because it would be cheaper, but train is probably more logical if you are moving home!
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Comunication along the coast was very easy by sea. Blyth and King's Lynn were what we would call in modern times 'Twin Towns'.
P
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Thanks Vicwinann, that's answered a lot of my questions-and raised a few more!. According to the census most of the men were described as Agricultural Labourers, so presumably were day labourers with little or no job security. I hadn't realised Norfolk was such a poor county in the C19th.
My theory of simply hopping on a barge and travelling North for work is obviously wrong as well.
Settlement certificates were a must in the 19th century. Without one, you could not stay.
Were these certificates to prevent vagrants travelling around the country? Did you need proof of work before you could obtain one?
The grandson came back quite quickly but the son and other members of the extended family stayed in the north. I assumed they chose to settle there-I didn't realise that they were trapped. One family obviously did quite well, the head of the house, a colliery worker in 1861 and 1871 was a farmer with 44 acres by 1881, but most remained mineworkers.
Moderator comment: topics merged to keep all information together.
Hello Jan,
I have just mailed the administrator because in answer to your questions, and maybe to help other people, as there are a lot of misapprehensions about, I have put together a basic peice about the Poor Laws and Settlement Certs. However, it is a bit long and I am not sure if I can post it on here. I will await a reply, and if not I will send a private message to you with my email address, so that I can send it to you.
Vicwinann
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Hi Vicwinann, I hope you are able to post your piece as I think a lot of us would be interested, but I've PMed you with my email in case you aren't.
Re Phodgett's point, I'm inclined to think travel by sea the most likely as it would have been by far the cheaper option, with more space for luggage.
Did Norfolk migrant labourers mainly travel up the North Sea coast I wonder or did some travel into Wales or the North West?
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The well-leafed book in Newcastle Library " Dictionary of Tyne Sailing Ships 1830-1930"
contains an a-z of info, including coal ships ( ie "Colliers" ) taking their cargoes all over the world, including Norfolk. The number of wrecks, mishaps, etc reveal how dangerous the trade was. The sailors strove to arrange the take on of ballast, to ensure ship stability, rather than return to the north-east empty.
Sometimes the ballast was human, folk leaving Norfolk after failed harvests.
Some numbers of people movements........
1861 Census info.....
Northumberland pop = 336,385. Includes 1024 Norfolk-born. 14917 Ireland-born
County Durham pop = 497,668. 2166 Norfolk-born. 27371 Ire-born
Lancashire pop = 2,406,678. 2306 Norfolk-born. 215,697 Ire-born
Wales pop =1,151,033. 590 Norfolk-born. 25840 Ire-born.
I added the Irish immigration as it was a similar agricultural problem.
Michael.
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Was Lord Hastings of Delaval Hall not Norfolk born,I do believe there are documents at the hall and Woodhorn,that may shed light on his staff records,possibly your ancestor worked for his family in Norfolk,
As for travelling my family on my grans side came from Cornwall in the 1880s, to Lancashire,by road and train ,a very long journey,in search of work,distance was no object,
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My ancestors also came from Norfolk{Corpusty,Saxthorpe}and they were agricultural labourers who went to work in the coal mines.Lord Hastings owned the land around Saxthorpe as well as mines in the NE.The Norfolk Family History Society is an excellent resource for delving into family trees.Many Norfolk people used to go back to the area for holidays.
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I have found this thread very interesting and informative. My great grandma was born in Huntingfield, Suffolk in 1863 and between 1871 and 1881 moved with her parents and some of her siblings to Langley Moor in County Durham. It has been interesting to learn why they might have made the move.
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As you say Chrissie, a very interesting topic.
It seems that people moved to the coalmining areas as they were certain to get paid work there, at the start of the industrial revolution, when coal was in high demand.
But I wonder if they realised the awful conditions they would be expected to work in. Especially after an openair life in rural Norfolk or Suffolk.
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The new edition of the NDFHS magazine has an article by Dr Bill Lancaster of the North of England Mining Institute at Neville Hall in Newcastle. They are starting a research project about the movement of people into the North East to work in the mines - and out again when the mines closed. He wants to know about individual stories about migration, and I thought several of the stories in this thread might be of interest to him. His email address is
williamlancaster@binternet.com
With regard to settlement certificates - I have a suspicion that there was less concern about these in industrial areas of the North than elsewhere in the country. The population seems to have been highly mobile from quite early on as new mining areas opened, in contrast to southern counties.
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I have an extended family that moved to Durham. I post my notes about Elizabeth Cousins who was probably the youngest of the group:
She was born in Browick, Norfolk in 1857 to James Cousins and Mary Ringwood.
She was the eldest child of father James who married Mary in 1855 in Bracon Ash, Norfolk. She moved to Jarrow with her family aged about 9. I think I can judge almost to the year when she moved to Jarrow from Norfolk.
Many of her family also disappeared from Norfolk and reappeared in Jarrow. The most accurate estimate of the date they moved comes from these facts.
In 1862 her brother George was born in Wymondham, Norfolk.
In 1865 her uncle John Henry had a son John Henry in Mulbarton, Norfolk.
In 1866 her brother William was born in Jarrow.
In 1870 her uncle John Henry had a son Samuel in Jarrow.
I believe this points to a move between 1865 and 1866.
The move included:
Her parents James Cousins and Mary (nee Ringwood).
her brother George.
her grandparents Henry Ringwood and Mary (nee Dawson).
her uncle John Henry Ringwood, his wife and five children. He had two more in the Jarrow/Hebburn area.
her aunt Elizabeth Ringwood with her husband John Osborne and two children. They had three more children in the Jarrow/Hebburn area.
her Uncle Walter Ringwood and his wife Mahala (nee Green) and three children. Walter had two children in Jarrow but returned to Norfolk before his last child George was born in 1887.
her husband James' mother Esther Barker (pre Cozens nee Smith).
her husband James' step-brother Isaac Barker.
...
and possibly even James Hall Thraxton, the father of her future second husband James Hall Thraxton (b1873 Hebburn), who was born in Hethersett where many of Elizabeth's family came from.
Among the Ringwoods mentioned there was an Elizabeth Ringwood b1840 who married a John Osborne b1845 in Ketteringham.
Also - only one family returned to Norfolk.
The photo is of Elizabeth - my great grandmother - with my father on her knee.
Paul
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I too find the story of my ancestors migration fascinating.They must have found the move traumatic,leaving behind other family members,as well as wondering what the future would hold.The differences between the rural life in Norfolk and the mining life in the NE would have been interesting.My Great-great Grandmother went from living in Saxthorpe to living in Newbiggin-by-Sea.What a contrast!The mix of accents alone would have been educational.
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The differences between the rural life in Norfolk and the mining life in the NE would have been interesting.
Don't forget the differences between living in poverty and starving, and the family having gainful employment and being fed!
As I said before: my grandfather moved from rural Wiltshire to the South Wales coalfields, and grandmother's family travelled all the way from Kent to South Wales! All in order to find work and avoid the workhouse.
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At first I wondered how they all coped with life labouring underground compared with labouring under open skies (conveniently forgetting cold and rain!) but there's no doubt that they were driven by poverty and necessity. The various family member seem to have moved around a fair amount -Earsdon, Longhirst, Cramlington, Morpeth, Jarrow, Gateshead, South Shields among others. Presumably they were travelling for jobs, sometimes lodging with other family members, leaving their wives and children in other parts of the North East.
The John Osborne that Paul Caswell refers to was baptised William John Osborne -(a grandson of William Osborne who I referred to originally). He was described as a coal trimmer - but I'm not sure what that was? His brothers Edward and George also moved North, married and settled in the area.
Looking at some members of later generations they seem to have had better job opportunities than their Norfolk cousins -engineering as opposed to labouring for example. (Not a fair comparison given that I don't know much else about them and their abilities but interesting- perhaps they had more opportunities for education or apprenticeships if the parents were better paid.)
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Trimmers worked on the staiths and ships. As coal was loaded into ships from the staiths it had to be spread about. It achieved two things. The vessel was kept on an even keel and the cargo hold could be fully utilised for the maximum possible load. A hard life shoveling coal about and in all weathers on deck.
There is a photograph of Trimmers at Blyth on the forum. Reply no. 53 on this thread;
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=488089.50
If you do a G**gle search Coal Trimmers in G**gle Images you will get a whole host of images showing what they did.
P
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Phew hard work indeed. Thank you for the link. I searched the images as you suggested and one picture was taken in 1956 but could have been 100 years earlier.
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He was described as a coal trimmer - but I'm not sure what that was?
Phodgetts has given you the answer to this, but you might like to know that there's a very useful glossary of mining occupations here
http://www.dmm.org.uk/educate/mineocc.htm
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Teemers "teemed" the coal down from the "drops", into the ships below. The Trimmers "trimmed"
the coal around the hold ( for reasons already stated)
Good communication between teemers and trimmers was essential for life and limb !
" Stand clear below- Now ! "
Michael
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A very interesting thread.
I too had family move from Hindleveston, Norfolk to Dudley in Northumberland. Bastard was the family name, an Uncle of my Grandfather.
My direct line, my GGrandfather moved from the same village to Staffordshire (Packmoor) to work down the mine. Sadly he died at 29 after just a couple of years and his wife soon followed, leaving 3 small children.
My Grandfather was sent for by the Uncle in Dudley, as he only had daughters, obviously to supplement the family funds. My Grandfather couldn't take the life and managed to become an Engine Driver with LNER.
Whilst in Norfolk my GGrandfather had worked for a farmer by the name of Bacon, so this name became added to their family name and they were known as the Pearce-Bacons! Sounds very posh!
My Grandfather hated being called Billy Bacon so reverted for the rest of his life to
William Pearce but his younger brother retained the Bacon and was throughtout his life
Alfred Pearce-Bacon.
My paternal side also migrated to the mines but this time from small coalfields in north Northumberland( Norham area) to County Durham, Hetton-le-Hole working alongside the Middleton ancestors ( Harrisons) for the Bowes-Lyon family!
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I have been tracing a branch of my family - my great grandmother's elder brother moved from South Creake in Norfolk to Parkgate near Rotherham between 1871 and 1881. He was a labourer at first but later became a miner as did his sons. I wondered why the family left Norfolk for the grime of a coalmining area but realise that it was economic necessity. I am having trouble identifying the jobs the younger boys did as there are big, black crosses on the census and the writing is not great.
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Welcome to rootschat, Diane :)
Why don't you start a new thread - possibly in the Handwirting/Deciphering or the Occupations sections and attach part of the census which you are having a problem with. Someone will be able to read it!
Christine
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This information is fascinating - how I wish they had taught us about it when I was a Norfolk Schoolgirl!
Following Christine's suggestion I am the relevant part of the 1901 census.
Entry 7. The family name was Doughty. John and his sons Fred, Jothan ( Jonathan) and Walter were all working at the Colliery. It is the occupations of Jothan and Walter that I cannot work out.
I hope that someone can help me decipher these occupations. The family were living and working in the Parkgate area.
The youngest son Percy was 11 in 1901 but is missing from the census. In 1909 he enlisted enlist in the York and Lancaster Regiment giving his occupation as miner. He survived the war but was discharged in March 1919 having been wounded. In addition to the 3 WW1 medals he was awarded the silver war badge so that people would know he was not avoiding his duty!
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Hi
One transcription has the following Coal trammer below ground and cinder wheeler at colliery above ground ( but there is also an additional part which seems to say below for coke).
William
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Thank you for that.
Any idea what a cinder wheeler might do? We wondered if cinder is another term for slag. The coke bit is puzzling.
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Taking my mind back to childhood here, Coke is a piece of coal which has most of the gas burnt out, but still usable in boilers and furnaces etc'. Cinders was the dead coal pieces that we cleaned out of the grate of a morning, but some were put back on the fire if they still had a spark of life. ( hence Cinderellas' name )
Not sure what the cinder wheeler did, but a cinder wench was a woman who picked the cinder's heaped around the pit yard, a common job for women at that time. Slag was all the waste that created the pit heaps around Northumberland.. Dolly .
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I'm wondering whether it should say 'Wailer' which was a job for boys picking our unwanted substances from the coal. The Trammer, I suspect, is a boy who works on the trams and usually referred to as a Putter
See - http://www.dmm.org.uk/educate/mineocc.htm#w
Christine
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If you look on the census around Earsdon you will find whole streets full of Norfolk-born households. Families in these parts today often have lost the knowledge of their Norfolk ancestry. Recently I traced the ancestry of a Cramlington-born friend back to Norfolk and was amazed in so doing to find a connection between his ancestry and mine through a different line!
My 2xgrt grandfather came from Blakeney Norfolk as a seaman, signed on at Sunderland in 1846 and settled in BLYTH where he married a local girl. He was drowned in1864 and only 2 of his daughters survived out of 4 children. But the surname MALLETT survived as a middle name for a few generations. However none of my relatives knew anything about the link with Norfolk despite my grandmother having a photo of him on her wall for years. It was a big surprise to discover his origins when I researched my family history and traced the line back to 1700 in rural Norfolk.
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In 1851 my 3x great grandfather was a farm labourer in Ketteringham. In 1861, aged 65, he had moved to Earsdon Northumberland with his wife, the youngest of his 14 children and a grandson. He remained a farm labourer but the two young men were coal miners. Other members of his family, sons, daughters, nephews and nieces also travelled North, settling in either Northumberland or County Durham. In each case the men worked as miners or as labourers in related industries. Some moved with their Norfolk spouses others found partners in their new home.
I haven't followed all the families but so far I haven't found a record of any returning to Norfolk. (The exodus seems to have escaped oral history-my late mother was unaware that any of the family had ever left the county. )
I assume that changes in agriculture and lack of employment opportunities drove the families northwards. Presumably it was fairly easy to travel in returning coal barges.Was this a common occurrence or were my ancestors unusual?
Hi there
No, your ancestors weren't unusual.
My family did the same thing. Four brothers from the same family moved to Durham Pits. Two stayed (one of them my family) and the other two went back.
See attachment. I found it very informative regarding my great great Uncle Dan. It seemed it was definitely hard down the mines, but thought it was better to return to Norfolk (where he lived until he was 105 still working on a farm!).
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I have just discovered that my 2x great grandfather John Peck went to Durham around 1871, as he was listed in the Census for that year living in lodgings, Westoe, Southshields with 3 others 2 labours and one bricklayer. I was wondering if they moved up to work at the Souter Lighthouse which was being built around then. My ancestor went back to Norfolk and was with his family by the following census 1881, where he was listed as a farm labourer. Thank you for your posts I have enjoyed reading them.
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Hi, my 3 x great grandfather Richard Pyle (Pile) came to Northumberland sometime between 1836 and 1839 with his wife Maria and family from the village of Thornage in Norfolk. They settled in Cramlington with Richard working as a miner (1841 and 1851 censuses). Sadly I have recently identified Richard's possible death in an underground accident in 1852. I have yet to positively prove this, but it's tragic if he had moved in the hope of a better life. The Durham Mining Museum website "in memoriam" pages, http://dmm.org.uk/mindex.htm make grim reading of the men and boys who lost their lives in the mining industry in the North.
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My ancestors also came from Norfolk{Corpusty,Saxthorpe}and they were agricultural labourers who went to work in the coal mines.Lord Hastings owned the land around Saxthorpe as well as mines in the NE.The Norfolk Family History Society is an excellent resource for delving into family trees.Many Norfolk people used to go back to the area for holidays.
Wow. My first time here and I find your post :)
My ancestors on my father's side came from Saxthorpe/Corpusty and William Wade moved from there in 1844/6. He had 6 children born in Saxthorpe, then 3 born in Northumberland - as was my father, and I was too (Ashington). My grandmother was delighted when dad (a chemist) said he was moving from Southport to Norwich. "That's where your father's family came from!" she said.
I still live in Norwich.
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My lown family were agricultural labourers from Norfolk but moved up to Durham and throckley to mine.
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My wife's family members all moved to the Tyne and Wear area from other parts in the 1800s.
The Smiths from Sculcoates to Gateshead, the Julnes from Kings Lynn to Sunderland, the Greaves(Grieves) from Brancaster to South Shields and the Nurses from Weybourne to South Shields.
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This might be of interest:
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=395157.msg2676855#msg2676855
Gadget
Added - ref to the book here:
Although it is usually difficult to find specific reasons for a flit, the Blyth-born RICHARD FYNES in his book ( 1873), "The Miners of Northumberland and Durham" covers various drifts of folk to and from the NBL & Durham Coalfield in 1800s.