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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Hertfordshire => Topic started by: A Hunter on Tuesday 18 June 13 15:45 BST (UK)
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Hi I am trying to trace admission and discharge records for St Vincents Convent and St Catherines Home for boys, both in Watford. My Grandmother Winifred Jones and her sister Eva and 2 brothers Edward and Lionel were sent from Bangor in N Wales to the above "homes" after their mother died around 1894. I have them them all there on 1901 census, but I dont know where they went afterwards. (have tried 1911 census). Any help in tracing the records would be most welcome. Many thanks
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Hello and welcome.
I can see Winifred and Lionel in 1901. There is also a Margaret - no Eva.
There is an Edward Jones born London - is that your family also.
With regard to 1911 - where did Winifred marry? Did she stay in the Watford area?
This has some reference to the schools http://www.holyroodrc.com/history/schools.html
regards
heywood
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Many thanks Heywood, yes they are my family, Edward was a half brother and Margaret is Eva. She ws Eva Margaret, it maybe that as these "homes" were run by Roman Catholic orders, they put the saints name first. Sorry I should have made myself more clear. I have later info around 1927 onwards. Various places Blackpool, Southport, Liverpool and Manchester. It is the bit in between leaving the "Homes" and arriving in the North. This is why I wondered if anyone new if there are any records and if so where they maybe. I have telephoned the Hertfordshire Library Archive centre, they dont have them. They thought thay maybe held by a Catholic Archive somewhere. Again many thanks. (I am new to Roots Chat so hope this message gets through to you).
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You may very well be right re the name change - happened to my friend, the nuns preferred the second name - more fitting!
Watford is in the Westminster diocese= maybe there is an archive department http://rcdow.org.uk/
best wishes
heywood
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Again my thanks Heywood
I will try the link to Westminster diocesess.
I checked out the previous link you sent re the history of the Convent, very interesting.
I appreciate your help, will let you know what information I find.
Thank you A Hunter
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Hi,
Have a look at the George Goodman thread here on the hertfordshire line, i know it is now 46 pages long but bgoodman had two of her ancestors at both of these homes. There is alot of interesting information and feed back from other root chatters. The young girl died at st catherines and bgoodman obtained her death certificate which she put on line as well. Are you familiar with the Watford area? I dont think anyone has found the admission/discharge records for the two catholic orphanages. Have you found either of your ancestors in the 1911 census? If you need any help just shout, there are some good rootchatters out there prepared to help.
Look forward to hearing from you soon.
jackie
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Hi
Can we just clarify the members of the family?
From 1901 . . . . .
The girls
(Eva) Margaret 13 bBangor
Winifred 12 bBangor
The list of boys contain the following, are all 3 yours?
Lionel 9 bBangor
Lewis 8 bLondon
Edward 6 bLondon
Are they this family in 1891 Bangor?
RG12 4666 117 page5
James Jones 32 bStPancras PianoTuner
Kathleen 33 bDublin
Edward 6 bDublin
Eva 3 bBangor
Winifred 2 bBangor
Lionel 7mo bBangor
Frederick Jones 16 (Bro) bStPancras
Georgina Hayes 15 (sis-i-l) bDublin
This could be important because (examples)
Areas to search now include StPancras + Dublin
People to search for now include Hayes family + Georgina may have taken them in . . . . . .
Were the children moved to Watford from Bangor or from StPancras (Watford-StP area is a "local rail link)?
Have we got the full names?
Not only the Eva/Margaret switch but sometimes they are listed as just initials ??? ??? ??? ??? ???
James + Kathleen married in Ireland?
Also may explain the RC link to StVincent?
Ray
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Hi Ray
Many thanks for the infor re my family:
I can confirm all the family you listed are mine, (except for Lewis b London), and they are also the Jones family living in Bangor.
I have the birth cert for Edward he was born in Dublin in 1885, Kathleen wasn't married.
I havent been able to trace a marriage in the UK or Ireland for Kathleen + James -- yet.
The children were sent from Bangor to the Orphanages in Watford on the death of their mother in 1893.
I have death certs for both Kathleen (1893) and James (1935) in Bangor and newspaper coverage for both of them. James never remarried.
I have a marriage cert for Winifred to Albert Brock in 1912 in Liverpool and his death in 1927.
Winifred & her daughter, my Mother Phyllis Brock then went to Manchester to stay with (brother) Lionel.
There is very little information about Eva Margaret. Family oral history says she was a Nanny in Bournemouth, and never married -- this has still to be confirmed. The 1911 census shows her working in Southport as a bar maid.
Edward appears to have died in WW1 - this is an ongoing enquiry,
My research started because I was trying to locate a record of the birth of my Mother Phyllis Brock, she gave her birthday as 13 May 1913. She said she was adpoted at 2 years old, but would not talk about it. She did not have an original birth cert, saying it was destroyed?? she died in 2004 without giving any information. The only cetificate she had was one that was issued from information supplied by an old school teacher and accepted by St Katherines House. This was sometime shortly after the war.
I was interested in admission and discharge records for the orphanages in Watford, in order to find exactly when they were admitted and where they may have gone immediately afterwards, prior to ending up in the North.
Sorry to write an essay on the topic, but I hope it fills in some gaps.
Again my Thanks and appreciation.
A. Hunter
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HI Jackie
Many thanks for your advice and interest. Yes I have seen the George Goodman thread, that is where I started. I found it interesting.
My thread was moved to this site by 'Manchester Rambler', it was thought this would be a better thread and it seems to be so. There are a number of people that have been very helpful.
I have posted a reply to 'Ray' - giving more details of my investigating, census returns, marriage and death certificates and other information I have found. If you would care to read that it may make my research a bit clearer.
I am currently investigating the Westminster diocese, for possible records, (as suggested by Heywood).
No response as yet. Will keep you posted.
Again my thanks - and appreciation of all the help.
A Hunter
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Hi, my name is Alison Jones, My father in law Clifford who is one of 3 brothers and the son of Lionel George Jones, the Lionel in question .. Brother of Winifred who you say went to live with him in Manchester after her husband's death in 1927. Clifford will be celebrating his 80th birthday in April and my husband Mark and I are keen to put together some sort of family tree for the event. cliff knew his father had lived in an orphanage in London after us mother had died but there was word that his father had taken a second wife who could not cope with the children ? Lionel did marry but his wife died and was nursed by Catherine Williams who went on to marry Lionel in 1934 Barton Manchester. Lionel died in Eccles Manchester in 1978 aged 88. All 3 sons, Clifford Hughie and Alwyn are living with families of their own. Whilst checking www.ancestry.com it shows James E Jones and Kathleen Hayes marrying south Dublin 1883. If Edward was born 1885, he must be James son but why was James in Ireland ? Do you know? Lionel was a steam engine driver. I will try and ask if he remember 'Aunt Winifred' or any other of Lionel's siblings. If my findings are correct James was a pianoforte tuner and his father John E Jones b 1836 a cabinet maker. I think James mother was Ann Maria Price b1837 and they were all from London so not sure why they moved to North Wales but may explain why the children were put to London rather than stay in Wales. We would be delighted to hear if your findings proved positive or if you have any further information at all regarding the family history.
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Hi Alison --- Soooooo delighted to hear from you, yes we share the same family. We knew Lionel was my Grandmother (Winifred's brother) and we knew he was a railway engine driver. We did not know he had been married twice and we did not know he had, had 3 boys. So this is all great news for us. As you may have seen from my previous messages on Roots, I have been trying to trace my mother (Phyllis's real date of birth) - this is what started all my investigations. I have been following all the family history for about 5 years and have found 2 cousins I did not know about. One in Australia who has been over to see us and one in Portsmouth who we met in London last year. These are people from my Father's side of the family. So your email, from my mother's side, was read with great interest, I visited Bangor and found where James Edward Jones lived, I did not find another marriage after Kathleen died, but I found he had a a house keeper who stole from him and she was sent to prison.
I have lots more "stuff", and look forward to hearing from you soon.
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Hi Alison
Welcome to Rootschat ;D
I'm pleased to see that you and unter have found each other here.
Alison, once you have made another post you can use the personal message system and exchange more information such as email addresses off-forum.
Click on the little clip-board type icon under the members name and avatar and access the system there. If the icon is glowing bright green there is a chance that the other person is online.
Dawn
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We were fascinated to hear about James Edward Jones housekeeper and her subsequent prison sentence. It would be great to get something giving details of this. Do you know what Kathleen died of ? She was still so young. Census shows James a lodger in Bangor 1901 after the children had been sent to The orphanage in London. I can't find him in 1911. Did he die in Wales. I have photographs of Lionel taken when he would have probably been in his 50's and have asked family members if they can find any younger I can email you. Once Cliff knows about this I will put him in touch but apologise this is all still under wraps until his birthday. The more info I have the better. I should be able to contact your email soon I think after this chat from what I can tell ?? Thank you again for the info so far !!
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Hi Alison --
We have newspaper cuttings of James housekeeper and her misdemeanors and we can send you copies.
We don't know what Kathleen died of because we didn't send for the death cert, however you will notice she had 4 children in 5 years, this may have had a relevance. (She was only 36).
Yes we found James in both 1901 & 1911 Census's. He was still a lodger in 1911 but a different address. Will send you more later.
James died in hospital in Bangor (of colon cancer) he was about 76 yrs old. Lionel was the advisor to the registrar.
It would be great to see a picture of Lionel and other members of the family but you must keep all this a secret from your Father in Law or it will spoil the suprise.
When you contact me via the Private Message section, we can exchange email addresses, then we can exchange more information about ourselves and about living people.
Looking forward to hearing from you.
A Hunter
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I have tried to click on the clipboard but nothing seems not to work . In response to someone's suggestion that Georgina may have taken the children after the orphanage .... She married George Peter Murray in Bangor 1893 (the same year her sister Kathleen died) and 2 years after the 1891 census showing her living with the Jones family. In 1901 they were still in Wales living in Brook Row, Bangor with their children Kathleen, 7. Oliver, 4 and William , 2yrs. George is a journeyman tailor. By 1911 they have moved to Ireland, living in Coombe cottages, Merchants quay, part of Dublin. Kathleen who will be 17 is not living with them Olive, 14, William 12 Alfred, 9, Gerald, 6 and Georgina Margaretta is 3 months. George is still a tailor. Are Kathleen's parents James Hayes b 1846 and Ellen Day Ogrady ..? If they are, are they Georgina full parents too .? I am looking forward to emailing but will keep trying the clipboard icon in the meantime.