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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Dublin => Topic started by: allesond on Saturday 22 June 13 02:54 BST (UK)
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Margaret Fox b. April 19 1889-1893 was born in Dublin to Nicholas Fox (deceased by 1919, Master Mariner) & mother unknown. I am trying to confirm or dismiss the following family as my ancestors:
Persons on Nicholas Fox Jan 25, 1885 marriage registration include:
Groom: Nicholas Fox (1858) b. at 127 Townsend St to parents Julia Byrne & William Fox
Bride: Margaret Shelly & parents Margaret Dolan & Thomas Shelly (Skelly)
Witness: James Shelly.
In 1885 at 33 Mabbot Street lived: Nicholas Fox & Margaret Shelley, also James Shelly & his wife Anne Whitty & 1st child Mary Margaret.
James & Anne Shelly subsequently had 4 more children Margaret Mary, Joseph Patrick, Margaret, & James at various addresses of: 82 Innisfallen Parade, 10 Stephens Street, 141 Stephens Road, & 4 Grenville Street
In 1885 at 57 Mabbot, lived: Thomas Shelly & Marg’t Dolan, Margaret Shelly’s parents.
In 1890 at 59 Mabbot: Marg’t Mary Fox was b. April 19th to Margaret Shelly (Fox); however, the father is listed as Michael Fox, not Nicholas.
In 1891 at 57 Mabbot where Margaret Shelly’s (Fox) parents lived another child was b. Catherine Fox to Michael and Marg’t Fox.
I cannot fathom how Margaret Shelly (addresses & parents confirmed) married Nicholas Fox in 1885 with all the characters at their wedding and then she gave birth to 2 children whose father is listed as Michael Fox (whom no records exist for marriage or other).
I would like to know if this Margaret Mary Fox b. April 19, 1890 to Margaret Shelly & father Michael Fox is my grandmother, whose father is known as Nicholas Fox & mother unknown.
Thank you
allesdond
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I think a marriage cert might be a good place to start... the record you mentioned is an RC parish record, whereas a civil marriage record would show occupations for the fathers and groom (and sometimes bride), and might help confirm, or rule out, the maritime connection for your Nicholas.
These are the likely references from the BMD Index :
Name : Nicholas Fox
Event Type : Marriage
Quarter and Year : Apr - Jun 1885
Registration District : Dublin North
Volume : 2 / Page : 461
A matching entry appears for a Margaret Shelly
Did your Fox family stay in Ireland ? Have you found them of any census returns ?
see : Ordering Certs from GRO Roscommon (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,599538.0.html)
Details included on a Marriage Cert (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,433042.0.html)
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on viewing the church register on irish genealogy i personally believe that the name is nicholas and not michael and is wrongly transcribed if you browse around the page and see some of the other Ns and Ms that the priests wrote you might see the difference i think its a latin form Nichale.
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Margaret Fox b. April 19 1889-1893 was born in Dublin to Nicholas Fox (deceased by 1919, Master Mariner) & mother unknown. I am trying to confirm or dismiss the following family as my ancestors:
Persons on Nicholas Fox Jan 25, 1885 marriage registration include:
Groom: Nicholas Fox (1858) b. at 127 Townsend St to parents Julia Byrne & William Fox
Bride: Margaret Shelly & parents Margaret Dolan & Thomas Shelly (Skelly)
Witness: James Shell
I cannot fathom how Margaret Shelly (addresses & parents confirmed) married Nicholas Fox in 1885 with all the characters at their wedding and then she gave birth to 2 children whose father is listed as Michael Fox (whom no records exist for marriage or other).
I would like to know if this Margaret Mary Fox b. April 19, 1890 to Margaret Shelly & father Michael Fox is my grandmother, whose father is known as Nicholas Fox & mother unknown.
allesdond
There is a later Baptism in 1894 of an Alicia Fox Parents Nicholas Fox and Margaret Shelly on the www.irishgenealogy.ie site Link http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/03f5780002802
This might indicate that there were two separate couples Michael Fox and Margaret Shelly and Nicholas Fox and Margaret Shelly.
I looked for Alicia in the 1901 census and came up with two possibilities Alice Fox b. Dublin niece of Mary Smith Head age 46 widow b. Queens co. in North Gloucester Place Dublin and the other Alice Fox age 8 b. Dublin in an orphanage in Harold's Cross Dublin also in the orphanage was a Nellie Fox age 9 b. Dublin.
Also have you seen the birth record in the Irish birth index for a Margaret Fox b. Oct Dec 1894 Malta Ireland - this seems to be an extract from an FHL film as the only other reference given is page 4 - no Volume no. so I'm not sure if you can get the birth cert from www.groireland.ie without more details- but may be worthwhile trying.
There is also a death registered for a William Fox b. 1891 d. Oct 1893 in Malta Given that Nicholas was a master mariner would the family have travelled with him? Have you tried for his marine record?
There is a tree on A-----y that has Nicholas Fox listed parents William Fox and Julia Byrne and also marriage 1885 to Margaret Shelley but then has a second marriage for Nicholas in 1886 to a Sarah Ann Worstenholme in Yorkshire - the sources referenced don't confirm if the second marriage is for the same Nicholas Fox however.
annclare
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on viewing the church register on irish genealogy i personally believe that the name is nicholas and not michael and is wrongly transcribed if you browse around the page and see some of the other Ns and Ms that the priests wrote you might see the difference i think its a latin form Nichale.
Dathai
Looked at both entries in the register and I'm afraid I see the father clearly as Michael.
Regards
annclare
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note the sponsors for the three baptisms are all smiths.
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Dathai
I hadn't spotted that about the sponsors but I still see father's name as Michael - however I have come across a number of baptisms with father's name confused with another sibling. I just looked at the notes in Alicia's Baptism and it seems to say married Adam or Alan (can't quite make it out) Alexander in St Mary's Liverpool 1918 rest of date illegible.
annclare
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Just checked Free BMDs and there is a civil marriage for an Alicia Fox to Adam Alexander in Liverpool District 8b 121. However I don't think this info is going to add much of use to the original query.
annclare
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on irish genealogy there are several baptisms starting around 1876 for children of a james smith and mary shelley confirming the link that anneclare found for alice fox in 1901 census with the smith family.there are also a mary and margaret fox as sponsors.
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Dathai
Well spotted - this proves that the Mary Smith in the 1901 Nth Gloucester Place age 46 widowed born Queens' county is a sister of Alicia Fox's mother Margaret Shelley - And one of the sponsors for one of the baptisms is James Shelly of Mabbott St who was married to Anne Whitty.
This seems to be James Shelly and Ann in the 1901 census where James states he was born in Queens Co as did his sister Mary.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/Mountjoy/North_William_Street/1323426/
annclare
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did you spot the mistranscription on that census for her brother john hulley census form says john shelly, he is at 10.5 summerhill parade in 1911 married 8 years no wife or children with him.
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my god talk about infant mortality in those days did you see james shelly's return for 1911 at 45 ballybough road, 17 children born 7 alive, must have been hurrendus for them.
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Dathai
No I didn't spot the mis trancription for John Shelly - am not so eagle-eyed as you are. Yes I saw the listing of the 17 children and 7 alive for teh James Shelly family- not very unusual in my own tree I have a family with 18 children born and only 3 lived to adulthood.T. B. as well as other diseases were rampant in those days and very little the medics could do.
annclare
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marriage on family search 1885. james shelly and anne whitty july sep 1885 ,enniscorthy,ireland. vol 4 page 247.
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Reply 1: Thank you Shanew 147 I will order some records, I wondered what other information might be available.
The only background we have on Margaret Fox comes from documents, as all our parents are not living. You can see the confusion on birth year below; however, her birthday is April 19.
Marriage cert Liverpool August 1919 lists her as 26 years old (b. 1893). States Nicholas Fox as f. and Master Mariner as occupation (true or not?)
Canada Ocean arrival March 1922 lists her as 30 years old (b. 1892), and born in Liverpool and father born in England; however Margaret was known to disown her Irish heritage (don’t know why).
Margaret’s daughter’s birth certificate (Isabel) August 1925 lists Margaret as 32 years old (b. 1893) and b. in Dublin Ireland.
Death cert Vancouver, Canada March 1947 lists Margaret as 57 (b. 1889/90) and b. in Dublin Ireland, but father as English (death cert is only as good as the survivor’s knowledge).
Reply 2/5/8/11/13: Thank you Dathai, I thought as well it is easy to mistake Mich… and Nich… but I don’t think twice for 2 different children. As, well I can clearly read Michael, unless it was being transcribed from someone else’s writing.
I also noticed the link with the Smiths. I will look at the links more closely. I knew of one child’s death, but wow. These would be good to see why they died.
I did find an Ancestry entry for the Whitty/James marriage but was hoping to find a church record with all that great collateral info.
Rely 3/4/6/7: Thank you Annclare, The tree in ancestry that you are referring to is mine. This family is such an enigma that I find it easier to add candidates to the tree and then rule them out and delete them. I should delete Sarah Ann Worstenholme and Mary Holf (wife of William).
I have looked everywhere for a marine record and none can be found (was he a mariner or was it a story?)
Related to two separate couples: Michael Fox and Margaret Shelly were living in Margaret Shelly’s parents home at the time of Catherine’s birth 57 Mabbot, which is on the marriage record as the Bride’s parents when she married Nicholas (curiouser and curiouser). Michael & Margaret lived at 59 Mabbot when Margaret Mary Fox was b. 1890.
I have not looked at Malta, as everything points to Dublin, but will. I have noticed the relationships of the Fox’s, Shelly’s, and Smiths. Seems either a Smith is sponser to a Fox/Shelly or a Shelly / is sponser to a Smith. I hadn’t wanted to muddy the water, but had missed the Nicholas Fox as Alicia’s parents, but now that I look I see Nicolaus and Margarita, which I have seen this spelling in much earlier decades and wonder if they are not the same couple.
I also saw in inscription in the column and tried to find an Adam Alexander in Liverpool, but did not find and I see you did. Thank you.
Thank you so much Shanew147, Annclare, and Dathai, I was thrilled to read your replies & get some direction. I don’t get to research for the next week but will be ordering some records.
Best regards,
Alleson
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Alleson
Ignore Malta its ared herring as I found an index which indicates those Fox childrens' father was in the Army in Malta.
annclare
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strange one. on glasnevin trust genealogy . nicholas fox 1901 age 40 buried in standard grave not on death index.
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Alleson
Have you tried LLoyds' Captains register for Nicholas Fox?
If not I may be able to do a look up
annclare
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another one for the pile julia smith dtr of james smith and mary shelly married edmund guinevan in st marys pro cathedral 24 april 1930 some births for guinevan/smith showing up in lismore in the 1930s.
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strange one. on glasnevin trust genealogy . nicholas fox 1901 age 40 buried in standard grave not on death index.
This man has the following as part of his address ...
6
shaw
villa
great
brunswick
street
maybe this will help to count him in (or out!)
eadaoin
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In 1901 Census house no 3 Shaw's Lane Arran Quay there is a Susan Fox age 33 widow living with her parents Michael and Elizabeth Mulvey
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/Arran_Quay/Shaw_s_Lane/1337547/
the only marriage I found for a Susan Mulvey with parents Michael and Eliza is in 1888 but to a Bernard Lovett in Harrington St church.
Bernard Lovett's mother was Catherine Fox.
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/b124160004462
annclare
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Just noticed that in the 1911 Census Susan Fox is listed as Susan Lovett Fox widow??? Seemingly no children. http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai000103393/
The plot thickens!!
annclare
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i think we have been barking up the wrong tree. i was in g r o this morning and my curiosity got the better of me so i bought the marriage cert for nicholas and mgt 1885 on it his occupation is listed as a porter as is his father william a porter also and thomas shelly deceased a carpenter. i suggest you get one of the certs where michael is the father and compare his occupation if listed differently then you will know if they are truly two different families.
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I'm still curious about the Nicholas Fox who is buried in Glasnevin.
annclare
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Just home from work, poured an Irish whiskey milkshake and read your wonderful comments. You have no idea how precious your generous interest is in helping our family try again to trace past our grandmother. We grandchildren of Margaret have created all sorts of potential scenarios for Margaret’s children listing “Mother Unknown” on Margaret’s death certificate, such as, being an orphan, living in a workhouse, or even being born illegitimate. Recently I thought maybe Michael was a brother of Nicholas and assumed fatherhood of Margaret after he died (stretching reality).
My sister applied for a birth certificate from Health Services Ireland and called them after they could find nothing in our parameters of Nicholas Fox as a father and her birth date. I even thought of just requesting how many Margaret’s were b. on April 19, 1893, but the year is still in flux. The thing is if we don’t use Nicholas as a parameter and don’t know her mother’s name any birth certificate of a Margaret Fox is meaningless, because we won't know if it is her. This is why I was so intrigued to find the Margaret Mary Fox b. April 19, 1890.
We are fortunate to have been able to trace our grandfather Keith Stewart’s lineage, Margaret’s husband’s, as he is in Burke’s & Debrette’s Peerages as a Galloway descendant. The peerages reported Nicholas Fox as Margaret’s father; unfortunately the peerages did not report the name of Margaret’s mother.
We had never heard of Nicholas being a Master Mariner until we got their Liverpool marriage license. As cousins, our collective parents never told us if they had any aunts or uncles. One cousin had heard of a link to the Boer War, but thought it was a Stewart not a Fox. I could find no Fox listed in the Boer War or find any Fox under Lloyd’s register. Maybe he was just a ferry worker or it was a nice occupation to offer up when marrying a Stewart??
An odd thing I did not mention was on Margaret’s Canadian genealogical death certificate, which includes details of family and medical condition, was an typewriter entry, after the original (in different typeface), a 2nd name of Thelisa. We had never heard this and just thought it an anomaly. I called records and they said they photocopied was there more than half a century ago. I have searched Thelisa, including the name alone, and found nothing to indicate this was her second name. We also do not know if she was Catholic, but just assumed so.
My next steps are:
. Next week when I get my first day off work, Monday, I will order the birth certificate of Margaret Mary Fox April 19. I wonder if this will have Michael’s occupation.
. Look at Glasnevin (which I had never heard before)
. And follow up on 2 Margaret Fox listed on Ancestry b. in 1893 Balrothery; however one is listed as 1st q. and one 4th q.
Thank you, thank you again.
Hugs to all,
Alleson
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glasnevin trust genealogy also has a burial 1894 grand canal st for a margaret fox age 30 same place alica fox was baptised
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I am so intrigued by the Nicolaus & Margarita Fox parents of Alicia Fox m. to Adam Alexander.
I just looked at the August 1st 1919 Catholic marriage record, on Ancestry.
We know from Alicia's baptism that her father is Nicolaus.
We know from the last column inscription that she married Adam Alexander in 1919.
Alice Fox
Marriage Date: 1 Aug 1919
Parish: St Mary of the Angels
Spouse's Name: Adam Alexander
Father's Name: Michaelis Fox
Mother's Name: Margaritae Fox
Spouse Father's Name: Joannis Alexander
Spouse Mother's Name: Mariae Alexander
Yet, when I read the father's name in the handwritten record, I too looks like Michael, actually, Michaelis. In fact, the transcription reads Michaelis and Margaritae.
Comparing the M's to N's, the m's are different than on Michaelis.
I now believe that Margaret Mary Fox's father could be Nicholas even though Michael is listed as father. Either way, I will check out all leads.
Thank you all!!
Moderator Note : Edit to show extracts of relevant image
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Thank you.
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Good Morning from Westeren Canada,
I was looking on Glasnevin and I cannot find the record for the 1901 d. of Nicholas fox that you referenced.
Thanks for all your help,
Alleson
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Very excited about Glasnevin Records!!!
Glasnevin Grave Location:
Letter: LI
Figures: 212
Section: ST. BRIDGET'S
CATHERINE FOX , died 1st Mar 1893 Convulsions; informant Nicholas Fox
Age: 16 month
STEVEDORE'S CHILD
5 HOGANS AVENUE GREAT CLARENCE STREET DUBLIN
T49649
View entry image
MARGARET FOX , died 18th Oct 1894 Bright’s Disease; informant Nicholas Fox
Age:30
STEVEDORE'S WIFE
12 UPPER GRAND CANAL STREET SIR P DUNS HOSPITAL DUBLIN
Record number:
T56019
View entry image
ANNIE SMYTH , died 21st Apr 1895 Pneumonia; informant Nicholas Fox
Age:17
LABOURER'S DAUGHTER
Marital status:
17 NORTH GLOUCESTER PLACE MATER M HOSPITAL DUBLIN
Record number:
T58568
View entry image
MARY DEANE , died 11th Dec 1873
Age:50
Gender:
SERVANT
Marital status:
Last address:
17 PEMBROKE ROAD DUBLIN
V11149
View entry image
I could not attach records as they were too large individually.
Have yet to figure out how to get GRO records with mailing them in.
The 1901 Nicholas Fox did not appear to connect as he was married (not widowed) laborer and Mary Fox was informant of different address.
***Excited, Alleson***
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well nicholas fox seem to have disappeared as i cant find him on 1901 census of ireland or england or his daughter margaret,the annie smyth buried there is probably marianna smyth born feb 1878 of james smyth and mary shelly.the deane burial is most likely not related,as far as i know when a person was buried then their family had 5 years to buy out the plot if not it then reverted back to being property of prospect cemetery.
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Dathai,
I have been adding all these characters to my tree Stewart/Ball/Walker/Fox/Scott/Flack/Gillone on ancestry, which makes it easier to search, and am choosing to believe, until I can prove otherwise:
1. Nicholas and Michaelis Fox are the same person
2. Catherine Fox and Alicia (Alice) Fox are sisters, as well as Margaret Mary Fox. Alicia (Alice) married in Liverpool in 1919 and so did Margaret (Keith Stewart). (I was named Alice when I was b. hmmm)
3. A couple of reasons our family might not have known Margaret's mother's name is she was too young when her mother died, and she lived elsewhere with other people or an orphanage, possibly not with her father.
4. After his wife died Nicholas may have not had the capacity to raise young girls. Or maybe he sailed away.
5. I found Margaret Shelly's (Fox) nephew Thomas Joseph Shelly crossing the border in Detroit to Canada in 1926 and he is listed as b. in 1898 in Dublin and his mother as Annie and wife as Mary. Other family could have exited Ireland for Canada.
Regarding the marriage certificate you purchased, I wonder if the occupation of porter can relate to shipping and then Nicholas advanced to stevedore. I also wonder how and where you got the marriage certificate (thank you and how can I repay), as I was looking at GRO Ireland today which is difficult to navigate payment.
I have just started to add Smith/Smyth to my tree starting with Mary Shelly and husband unknown Smith. I see you have Mary Shelly as James Smyth's spouse. I will follow that lead.
And of course, we cousins have had no luck in tracking Nicholas Fox with many wrong turns and starting again and again. He may have just picked up and left. The only reference to him is the marriage of Margaret and Keith 1919 where he is deceased and a Master Mariner.
Thank you!!
Alleson
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Discouraged after talking with Civil Registration Dublin this am. They cannot find the birth records of Margt Mary Fox (April 19, 1890), Catherine Fox (June 27, 1891), or Alicia Fox (Sept 21, 1894)..
(Mother) Margt Fox (Shelly) death record, Mar 1 1894, lists husband as "Foreman for Wallace Brown." Glasnevin lists Margt as wife of Stevedore."
On Catherine Fox's death record her mother is listed, but not father. Glasnevin lists daughter of Stevedore.
allesond
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Another bit of information, which points to Nicholas and Michaelis as the same name or person:
Of Margaret, Catherine, and Alicia Fox, the only one whose father is listed as Nicholas is Alicia; the other two have their father listed as Michael or Michaelis in Irish Geneology. Today I looked at a record I have seen many times over in the Liverpool Catholic Marriages listing on Ancestry and here the known Nicolas Fox is listed as Michaelis:
Alice (Alicia) Fox
Marriage Date: 1 Aug 1919
Parish: St Mary of the Angels
Spouse's Name: Adam Alexander
Father's Name: Michaelis Fox
Mother's Name: Margaritae Fox
Spouse Father's Name: Joannis Alexander
Spouse Mother's Name: Mariae Alexander
I have ordered the marriage cert of Alice and Adam to find more specific info on both their parents.
Alleson
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I am so intrigued by the Nicolaus & Margarita Fox parents of Alicia Fox m. to Adam Alexander.
I just looked at the August 1st 1919 Catholic marriage record, on Ancestry.
We know from Alicia's baptism that her father is Nicolaus.
We know from the last column inscription that she married Adam Alexander in 1919.
Alice Fox
Marriage Date: 1 Aug 1919
Parish: St Mary of the Angels
Spouse's Name: Adam Alexander
Father's Name: Michaelis Fox
Mother's Name: Margaritae Fox
Spouse Father's Name: Joannis Alexander
Spouse Mother's Name: Mariae Alexander
Yet, when I read the father's name in the handwritten record, I too looks like Michael, actually, Michaelis. In fact, the transcription reads Michaelis and Margaritae.
Comparing the M's to N's, the m's are different than on Michaelis.
I now believe that Margaret Mary Fox's father could be Nicholas even though Michael is listed as father. Either way, I will check out all leads.
Thank you all!!
Moderator Note : Edit to show extracts of relevant image
Another bit of information, which points to Nicholas and Michaelis as the same name or person:
Of Margaret, Catherine, and Alicia Fox, the only one whose father is listed as Nicholas is Alicia; the other two have their father listed as Michael or Michaelis in Irish Geneology. Today I looked at a record I have seen many times over in the Liverpool Catholic Marriages listing on Ancestry and here the known Nicolas Fox is listed as Michaelis:
Alice (Alicia) Fox
Marriage Date: 1 Aug 1919
Parish: St Mary of the Angels
Spouse's Name: Adam Alexander
Father's Name: Michaelis Fox
Mother's Name: Margaritae Fox
Spouse Father's Name: Joannis Alexander
Spouse Mother's Name: Mariae Alexander
I have ordered the marriage cert of Alice and Adam to find more specific info on both their parents.
Alleson
I have the Marriage Certificate from Alice Fox and Adam Alexander (which reference is in margin of Alicia Fox Church baptism). Nicholas Fox on her baptism and Michael Fox on her marriage cert (deceased).
I have put together this entire family of Fox and now still wondering if they are mine.
Please see table for more clarity.
Thanks,
Alleson
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Just looking at this from a different angle
IF you are happy to say that Nicholas Fox and Margaret Shelly are the parents of your Grandmother Margaret and making the presumption that Margaret then decided to 'elaborate' on her father's profession and 'promoted' him from Stevedore to Master Mariner
Then
If you look at the marriage of Nicholas and Margaret it says that Nicholas' parent's were William Fox and Julia Byrne
This then would be Nicholas' baptism and so all other references to this man as Michael can only be mistranscriptions OR lack of knowledge on his daughters part ...
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/be65020221223
Other children born to William Fox and Julia Byrne
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/835a4f0231684
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/d154fd0223925
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/91dd1c0183159
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/a93d9c0226570
marriage of William Fox and Julia Byrne
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/5872d60017154
ALSO
You referred in another message to Margaret's second name - it sounds like another mistranscription on Teresa / Theresa
Tara
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Hi Tara, thanks again for your help.
Our family knew Maggie as Irish. On her Ocean Voyage she listed her birthplace the same as her daughter Barbara Stewart, Liverpool, who she travelled with. Her Debrett’s listing is from Dublin, but could be construed as Nicholas was from Dublin. My mother’s birth cert definitely states her mother was b. in Dublin, Ireland.
Maggie’s death cert is attached if you can see. The middle name of Thelisa is an anomaly and is in different typeface. I called medical records and they had no explanation.
I believe firmly that Margaret and Catherine Fox are sisters as per the same address 57/59 Mabbot St, their father’s name is Michael as per baptism at St. Mary’s Pro, but Catherine was b. in Nicholas’ in-laws house.
I believe Alice Fox was Margaret Shelly’s daughter as she was b. in the same house as her mother died a month after her birth, 12 Grand Canal, but she was baptised in St Mary Haddington not St. Mary’s Pro.
Catherine and Margaret Shelly (Fox) are buried in the same family gravesite.
I get that that Margaret and Alice might not have known their parents names, but not that the church would get it wrong twice. I concede that Margaret might have been told her father was a Master Mariner if he was no longer in the picture. Alice was 6 and living at her Aunt Mary Shelly’s (Smith) house in 1901. I have candidates for Margaret or Maggie in 1901 but nothing concrete or with relatives and the age is wrong.
I wish that the Dublin Civil Registration had any of the 3 girls’ birth certificates, but I was an hour on the phone with them with no luck.
I so appreciate that you took the time to follow up on my posting, means a lot to get another perspective.
Best Regards,
Alleson
PS I tried to attach the death cert but was too large.
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Have you or whoever you spoke to on the phone at the GRO looked into this registration
Name: Margaret Mary Fox
Registration District: Dublin North
Birth Country: Ireland
Volume: 2
Page: 456
Obviously something wrong as no year is included. Dublin North is good for Mabbott Street.
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I will call as soon as I get up tomorrow. I bet that is her. I will let you know.
Alleson
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Thank you Tara and all those before at RootChats for all your help.
This morning I called Dublin Civil Registration Tara with this information below that Tara provided.
Name: Margaret Mary Fox
Registration District: Dublin North
Birth Country: Ireland
Volume: 2
Page: 456
Unfortunately Dublin Civil Registration does not use these codes and I wonder if it is the GRO?
However with this phone call I have found my grandmother!!!!!
From this post below of a compilation of church records and Glasnevin Cemetary, Tara gave fresh insight:
Are Margaret Mary, Catherine, and Alice (Alicia) Fox sisters?
Margaret Mary Fox b. April 19, 1890 at 59 Mabbot Street.
Mother: Margaret Shelly Father: Michael Fox
Catherine Fox b June 27, 1891 d, March 1, 1893 at 57 Mabbot Street.
Mother Margaret Shelly Father Michael Fox
Glasnevin death Testimony: Nicholas Fox. Glasnevin record lists Catherine as: Daughter of a Stevedore
Alicia Fox b. September 21, 1894 at 12 Grand Canal
Mother: Margaret Shelly Father: Nicholas Fox (baptism record)
Married Adam Alexander 1919
Father listed as Michael Fox on marriage certificate (deceased Coal Dealer Foreman)
Mother Margaret Shelly (Fox) married Nicholas Fox 1885 when her parents lived at 57 Mabbot Street
She died Oct 18, 1894 at 12 Grand Canal and is in the same family grave at Glasnevin as Catherine Fox. Glasnevin records list her as wife of Stevedore. Civil Registration Dublin lists “Husband is Foreman for Wallace Brown”
Glasnevin death testimony: Nicholas Fox
This morning Dublin Civil Registration found a birth certificate for an Unknown Fox b. April 19, 1890 at 57 (not 59 like the church record listed) Mabbot Street. Mother: Margaret Shelby [Shelly] Father: Nicholas Fox not Michael Fox like the church record listed.
They could find no record for any other unnamed babies on the birth dates and places mentioned.
They described to me why so many babies were unnamed on birth certificates. “Babies were born in hospitals and they left straight away and many times had them baptized on the way home … they didn’t need the birth certificate.”
This is an absolute, no doubt about it record of my Grandmother and my the tree on Ancestry with all of the potential candidate of: Shelly’s, Smith/Smyth’s, Foxes, and Byrnes get to stay because they belong to my family. And Catherine and Alice Fox are Margaret (Maggie's) sisters.
THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU, from the bottom of my heart. I turned 65 yesterday and this is the best birthday present ever.
Alleson
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Hiya Alleson
Well, FIRST of all HAPPY BIRTHDAY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Secondly, HA I think HASTA put you on the right course NOT me.
I think if anything the only thing that I did was make you DETERMINED to prove that the three girls were sisters and that you did in spades.
Well done you on your perseverance !
Naughty Margaret made it super tricky on you - HUM maybe it was SHE who gave you a 'day late' birthday pressie from 'up above' to make up for her 'high aspirations' on her father's occupation.
Well done again - it will be SOOOO nice for you to now garner as much info as you can on this family and REALLY paint a picture of your Grandmother.
Tara
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Thank you again, and I just have to go to Dublin one of these days and sift through the research room to find the rest of the family.
Big Hugs,
Alleson
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strange one. on glasnevin trust genealogy . nicholas fox 1901 age 40 buried in standard grave not on death index.
Hello Dathai, More than a half a year later I can now confirm this Glasnevin listing you found for Nicholas Fox is my grandfather. Short of a DNA test, the death record of Oct 6, 1906 from Glasnevin lists Nicholas Fox's address as: 6 Shaw Villas Great Brunswick St Dublin, Ireland.
Nicholas Fox's sister Ellen Mooney [Fox] and family lived at this address during the 1901 and 1911 censuses. Mary Fox is listed as witness for death record. Mary is a newly identified sister of Nicholas. Fox.
The Select Catholic Birth and Baptism Registers have been a great help in finding all the children of a specific couple, such as:
Mary Fox of William & Julia SS Manolla [?sic] Byrne. (Parents of Nicholas Fox are William fox and Julia Byrne)
Other entries include:
1. Mary Margret Maddingan of Michael & Teresa S Mary Scully
2. George Manning William & Anne SS John Kelly & Margaret Kelly
3. Mary Brangan of Mathew & Margaret S Mary Ferrall
Some of the names on these records have SS and some just one S. I wonder is this indicates whether the parent or parents of the brides are the mother or father or one parent or two.
Anyway Dathai thank you for the Glasnevin entry that was my grandfather.
Best regards,
Alleson
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OK I'm an idiot; one S is one parent and two SS is two parents, I had to post to see it.:)
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Alleson
The S stands for Sponsor (godparents) you will see wehre ther is one S there is just one godparent and where SS tow godparents.
Congrats on your research.
annclare
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Thanks Annclare, I disregarded some records of the Fox siblings as the S or SS were obviously not one of the mother's parents. I will go back and add them.
Alleson
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Hi Alleson
Congratulations on your birth day and finally getting somewhere with your tree and thanks for the update.
Regards
Dathai
P S if Mary Fox was baptised in 1848 i think her sponsor is Marcella Byrne as on Irish Genealogy.
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Thanks, just located that record and see Marcella as the name.:)
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2 years have passed and I am no closer to finding where on earth Adam Alexander and Alice Fox ended up.
Irish and Scotland's People records have been scoured, have searched "all collections" around the globe and have still have burning questions:
1. Can't connect Adam Alexander with a father and mother: John and Mary [Joannis & Mariae Alexander] as per Catholic marriage record Aug 1, 1919 Liverpool to Alice Fox. Adam Alexander [rank Private 416929] marriage January 16, 1919 to Alice Fox as per GRO. John Alexander [farmer] was still living.
2. Can't find any census with Adam and Alice Alexander, with exception of Canada 1916 census which has the couple immigrating to Canada in 1904 and first child b. in 1906, when Alice Fox would have been 10-12. years old.
3. No census with a John and Mary as parents to Adam Alexander.
4. And why did Adam Alexander list his marriage on WWI record to Alice as Dec 26, 1914 Dublin, when the evidence shows 1919 in 2 other places.
Always hoping they had descendants, but no luck yet?
Thanks for reading,
Alleson
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Well Hello Again Alleson
Well, I can't help you with Alicia after her marriage but I did find this1906 record for her.
Tara
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This appears to be the Aunt Mary Kavanagh mentioned.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Trinity_Ward/Shaw_Villas/83462/
Tara
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Alleson
I found a sad record for Alicia in 1917.
I shall PM you re same as it is too sensitive to post here.
Tara
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Alicia in the Workhouse Hospital in 1914, address Asylum Yard.
Tara
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The Mooneys and the Kavanaghs in 1901
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/Trinity/Shaw_Villa/1311471/
Tara
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Nicholas' sister Ellen Fox marrying Thomas Mooney
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/24305d0024401
Tara
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. . . and their children . . .
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01gcw/
Tara
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This appears to be Alice in 1916.
The details appear jumbled though and I wonder do they refer to the Mooneys or Kavanaghs ???
Tara
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Hi Tara,
Thanks so much for this sad but wonderful news. Ellen Mooney's son was in the army and died in Flanders 1918, so this could be the son sending money. If that is the case I don't see a brother John for Ellen and not Maggie or Alice. I have 12 Mooney children, but got all their birth records from Church Westland Row records, so thanks for the Irish Genealogy records. Where would I search for the arrest records and this last one sent. Where in the world did you find these. What have I been doing wrong?:)
Thanks,
Alleson
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I can't PM images ~ I can only post them here.
Not sure if you want me to do that !
Let me know !
Tara
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I wonder was Margaret with Nicholas in 1901 ?
There are parts of Dublin missing from the online Census.
Tara
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Ellen Mooney 1916
Tara
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It looks like Ellen Mooney was a possible foster mother.
Tara
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Yes please post. I suppose that is why my grandmother Maggie never talked of her family. My mother didn't even know her grandmother's name or that she had siblings.
Thanks,
Alleson
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I would hope Maggie was with her father in 1901, but can't find them. Alice was with an Aunt, so sounds like he was unavailable.
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Bear in mind that the Census just says where someone was THAT night !
Tara
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Alleson
Do you mind if I don't post as she may have living relatives who may stumble across it and be upset.
So, the records are on findmypast.ie
They are a sub site and for €10 a month you will get lots.
They also do a free trial.
There are lots of prison, workhouse records for the Mooneys / Kavanaghs so you will defo get your moneys worth
I didn't even start to look for Smith / Shelly and the other Fox's.
Anyway, I think that's your best option.
BTW Should you get a sub I always ask people to be SURE to unclick auto renew sub.
Tara
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Thanks Tara.
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Well Hello Again Alleson
Well, I can't help you with Alicia after her marriage but I did find this1906 record for her.
Tara
Hi Tara, I am on Find My Past and cannot find this record of Alice at 6 Shaw Villas, would this record been from a different site. Amazing information. Thanks again, Alleson
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Hi Alleson
Was that the 1916 record ?
If so, just put FOX into the surname box and put SHAW into the Ireland ~ Where box and she wll be the first entry that will show up.
Tara
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Hi Tara, It was the 1906 record that shows Mary Ellen Kavanagh as the guardian of Alice Fox aged 12: both parents deceased. You posted an image, but I still can't find the record no matter what I enter. Lots of records, but not that one that looks like a census, not the typewritten minutes.
I have been quite sad looking at the multitude of prison records of Julia Fox [Nicholas Fox's sister] and John Kavanagh for abuse of his wife Mary Ellen Mooney. Ellen Fox [Thomas Mooney], the Kavanagh's, Julia Fox, and Alice Fox are all living under one roof at 6 Shaw Villas. Chances are Margaret may have lived there also, as this was the address of Nicholas Fox when he died in 1906.
Thanks again for all your help.
Alleson
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Hi Alleson
Put ALICE FOX into the relevant boxes.
Into the WHEN box put 1906 and then 0 + / -
Search
It should then show up as the second entry of 21.
Dublin Poor Law Unions being the Record Set
Tara
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Ooppsss
Using the above but change the Christian name to ALICIA
I'm on my tablet and it won't open FindMyPast documents but it might be that one.
Tara
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Found it under Dublin Workhouses Admissions...... Under Alicia Fox, but name in column is Alice. Whew...Thanks
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Better late than never ;D
Tara
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Re James Shelly
He married Anne Whitty on 17 September 1885 in Bunclody.
His address was given as Dublin,.
Dad's names weren't given.
James' best man was a John SHELLY
Tara
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This is obvs the same John that Dathai and Annclare referred to.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Mountjoy/Summerhill_Parade/14150/
Tara
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There is a 1908 record for this same John, with a son called Michael b 1894, address MABBOT STREET
Tara
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John Shelly is in Thoms for 1894.
Address MABBOT STREET
Tara
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Alleson
Did you spot the 1878 prison record for MARGARET SHELLY
Born 1863 ABBEYLEIX
This HAS to be her.
Shelly is NOT a common Laois name.
Laois is my stomping ground so I shall have a poke around.
Tara
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Margaret Shelly was baptised 1863 in Abbeyleix.
Parents are listed as Thomas Shelly and Margaret DOWLING.
We need to work out is Dowling or Doran correct BUT I'm 100% sure this is your Margaret.
Tara
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HA
Brother John was baptised 1861 in Abbeyleix.
Mum is down as DOOLIN
That's a Laois accent for ya.
Tara
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There's a sister Mary b 1857.
Mum is DOWLING
Tara
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There is a brother Robert b 1856.
Mum is DOWLING
Tara
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There is a brother William b 1855
Mum is DOWLING
Tara
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There is a sister Catherine b 1853
Mum is DOWLING
Tara
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There is another sister Mary b 1851
Mum is DOWLING
Tara
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Brother John's marriage
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/34c62b0062220
Tara
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I think we can safely say that Margaret's maiden name was DOWLING
Tara
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Thomas Shelly and Margaret Dowling married 1 November 1845 in Stradbally Laois.
Tara
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My God you have been at work. I have all the rootsireland records on my tree from Abbeyleix with Thomas Shelly and Margaret Dowling. I have assumed that Doolan and Doran are just errors of a sort. But it is really nice to see that connection on the prison record to Abbeyleix...confirms the records from Nicholas' marriage. Margaret Shelly is my great grandmother and yes I think this does absolutely confirm that Margaret Dowling is her mother. I have many wonderful records from Glasnevin, thanks to Dathei's direction.
No! I did not see that Margaret Shelly prison record. Blimey...my family...what to think. Maybe that is why my grandmother wouldn't admit to being Irish. She is buried here in Vancouver and I think I need to go and apologize for
I have Margaret's siblings of John 1846, Mary 1851, Cath, 1853-1910, William, 1855 and the other Mary 1857 who married James Smyth, James Henry, whose descendants I have been in touch with from Minnesota, and John 1861, who married Mary Shea.
Thanks Tara!!!
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Hiya
HA
I was bored today.
What can I say ?!
I was reared in Dublin yet live in Laois so your Shellys have covered my two favourite counties !
Tara
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Just to note . . .
As Margaret and Thomas married in Stradbally then this is HER parish.
Shame their Dad's names aren't known.
Now also to note Thomas and Margaret didn't live in Abbeyleix itself.
Their children's births are registered as such in that parish BUT you will note that they don't feature on the NLI register books.
Now, some areas of Ireland had a few churches in the area.
Their records books were assigned to the larger parish.
For the life of me I've never been able to work out who actually has these smaller church books.
I've seen it with quite a few parishes and I've never gotten a great answer despite trying different avenues.
The surname Shelly features a lot near Castletown but I'm not sure this comes under Abbeyleix.
Durrow is another possibility,this does come under Abbeyleix.
I'll keep poking around for your Laois heritage.
BTW It's pronounced LEASH (some folks get confused)
Tara
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Dowlings on GV in Stradbally
http://www.failteromhat.com/griffiths/laois/stradbally.htm
Tara
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Thomas Shelly on GV in Abbeyleix
http://www.failteromhat.com/griffiths/laois/abbeyleix.htm
Very likely your chap !
Tara
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Do you have an occupation for Thomas ?
Tara
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http://boards.ancestry.ie/localities.britisles.ireland.lex.general/874/mb.ashx
Tara
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A Thomas Shelly in Durrow
http://www.dippam.ac.uk/eppi/documents/14412/page/372180
Tara
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You are a treasure for sure and glad you were bored :) Thanks for the pronunciation, every time I read to myself Laois sounded from South Asia.
I saw many familiar surnames on the lists, such as Byrne [Julie married William Fox both from Dublin] and Kavanagh. Speaking of Kavanagh, I talked [messaged] with the great granddaughter of Mary Ellen Mooney, who gave me information about a daughter Rosie, who died in Magdalene House.
I talked with someone in May whose Shelley [Shelly] family was from Kilkenny, but we came to believe they were not the same family.
I do not have an occupation for Thomas Shelly, but I did see Lord Ashworth was after him for something.
BTW, so much info in the prison records. A Great-aunt 4'9,'' Great grandmother 5'1/2." I have a sister 5'0 and another just under. I am a whopping 5'3."
Thanks for the trove of information. Much appreciated.
Alleson
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Oh and I don't know whether you know or not but the carpets for The Titanic were made in Abbeyleix.
That's pronounced Abbey Leaks !!!!
Tara
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See my head said Abbey lay:)
Off to bed at midnight on this side of the world. Thanks, again.
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I wanted to make a little point re Nicholas.
I know things were hard for Alice but this was AFTER her father's death.
Nicholas lived and worked in Dublin at a time when you were arrested at the drop of a hat YET Nicholas has no prison records.
Usually in cases like his there would be records for abandoning children or failure to pay institution fees YET there is nothing.
Also, the family don't appear in the workhouse which held the free hospital.
. . . Any deaths were in fee paying hospitals.
. . . Also, he and his wife and family are all buried together, not in a paupers grave.
So, my point is that he sounds like a hard working man, kept his nose clean, and while not wealthy by any stretch, was not destitute either.
He did the best by his family despite his wife dying so young.
Tara
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Hi Alleson
Well I've got another few goodies for you to go through on FindMyPast!
I reckon you're getting your money's worth on there, hope you feel the same ;D
Anyway, if you look up a Thomas Shelly b 1850 record is for 1890 in the Dublin Workhouse.
He is a single labourer.
WELL his address in 1890 is 17 GLOUCESTER PLACE
This is the same address that Annie Smith was buried from in 1895 !
So, now I am pretty sure that this Thomas is the son of Thomas Shelly and Margaret Dowling.
So, this then leads me onto two other records, ages are out but I'm pretty sure it's the same family.
so, 1867 & 1868 a Margaret Shelly with children Thomas Shelly and Annie Shelly were taken into the workhouse.
Margaret is listed as a married servant living at Bull Alley.
Look at the records anyway.
Remember 1867 was when Margaret Junior got into a spot of trouble.
This would account for it, the family appear to have been struggling.
Annie was kept with her Mum but it says Thomas Junior was sent to Thurles (he obvs came back)
So, in 1869 a 60 year old Thomas Shelly is buried in Glasnevin, last address Jane Place.
No guarantees that it's your ancestor but would be worth a gamble when you next have a few bob to spare ;D
Tara
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My maths are out on Margaret Juniors prison record there.
Hum review with caution ;D
Tara
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There is a Margaret Shelly b 1858 prison record 1881.
POB Tighe Street, which wouldn't tie in with your Margaret but POB's are often wrong.
The reason why I think it's worth following up on is that there was a Thomas Shelly at the same address a few years later, a widower, carman.
Again, not sure if it's the same family but worth having a poke about to see if they could tie in.
BTW Did you never get the marriage cert for Margaret & Nicholas ?
Tara
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OH
I just remember.
WAY BACK Dathai got you the marriage cert for Nicholas & Margaret.
Thomas Shelly was listed as a carpenter.
Tara
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Re Alice and Adam
Have you tried following up on this couple ?
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KMGN-58C
Tara
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Alleson BTW don't discount the 1916 Canadian Census.
Emmigration years are often wrong, as are ages etc.
The children MIGHT have been his from a prior marriage.
Also, re his parent's names on marriage, they are often wrong due to a LOT of reasons.
Adam could have deliberately given wrong names, he could have been misheard, the clerk may have gotten it wrong.
So, go by his age on his military records and route around for him using a 5 year age variable.
BTW Was there any occupation for him on his military records ?
Tara
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HUM
I just saw the 1904 ship record
GRRR Blows my theory to pieces.
Adam / Alice / Canada ~ you'd swear it had to be them !
Tara
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Fitter, Fireman Boiler
Occupation
Tara
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Hum, Adam was telling fibs allright.
The military records are for 1918 where he said Alice was his wife and that they had been married 4 years.
We know he didn't marry 'til 1919.
Yup, I'd defo take his parent's name with a pinch of salt for now !
Tara
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There are notes that he was being called on looking for his birth cert and looking for the address of his wife.
The plot thickens !!!!
Tara
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If I'm reading the documents correctly it appears he signed up, never saw active duty, was absent from first roll call, about a month after joining put in a claim to say he had been disabled.
No claim was given.
I wonder was his and Alice's a marriage of convenience ???
Something to satisfy a military requirement.
It might be worth looking for Alice under her maiden name after 1919.
Tara
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Question
Alice Fox married 1st August 1919 in Liverpool.
Is that correct ?
What was her occupation on the marriage cert ?
What was her address ?
____________________________________
Margaret Fox
She married August 1919 in Liverpool.
What DATE ?
What was her occupation on her marriage cert ?
What was her address on her marriage cert ?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
HA I wonder can you see where I'm going with this ;D :o ;D
Tara
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The other Adam / Alice marriage
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:26QV-Q5Q
Tara
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Long Shot
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2NM4-X7B
Tara
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TARA, I just opened up and saw the posts. You are hilarious asking questions and then answering them all...giggle. I will also try:
1. Married at Register office Jan 16, 1919: Alice was single, Mineral Water Bottler, Foreman for Coal Dealer and Adam was bachelor, Private 416929, 49 Stafford Street. Father John was a Farmer. They were also married in the Catholic Church Aug 1, 1919. He 110 Soho St and she 110 Soho St. Joannis et Mariae Alexander and Michaelis et Margaritae Fox. Looks like he was gone in Jan 1919 and I suspect to get married. I saw the disability form but stated no disability.
2. Adam and Alice in Manitoba were living in Canada in 1904 so not them.
3. I ordered the birth cert for David Fox from Steyling [sic] with the caveat of Adam and Alice Fox as parents and nothing. So I didn't purchase.
4. Maggie [Margaret] was a hotel waitress at 14 Scourfield st. Nicholas Fox deceased. Master Mariner and Keith Stewart Stationary Engine Driver 28 Crown St, Father: Leveson Douglas Stewart deceased Civil Engineer. Margaret married well, as this family is a collateral branch of the 6th Earl of Galloway.
5. Yes Dathai, got the birth cert, but I never saw. I remember he said Nicholas was a porter.
6. I love addresses and long ago I made a table with all addresses and put people under these, which is how I came to my first conclusion that Alicia, Catherine, and Alice were sisters. 17 Gloucester or Glouchester brings great results.
7. I was loving findmypast and didn't mind at all when my 14 day went to annual until I tried to look at a 1939 record and got peed, so I cancelled. I will get the subscription again but hope it goes on special before Christmas.
8. I was thinking of Maggie at 15 stealing a coat et al. and you are right I didn't find any other prison records.
9. Thanks for the uplift on Nicholas. In fact, Dathai first pointed me to his death at Glasnevin and I discounted as said was married... But after getting dozens of burial records and many with Nicholas Fox as informant, I thought he was so responsible. I contacted Glasnevin and asked about Nicholas Fox and if he was informant on all these family graves where is he and they said they made an error and he was that person and in the same family grave.
Thanks thanks thanks!!...
Alleson
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Maggie was married Aug 23, 1919 and from then belonged to the Church of England. Did not have a Catholic wedding as Alice. I wonder if the sisters were even in touch. On Maggie's Ocean arrival she lists the nearest relative from country from which you came as Mrs. E Stewart sister, 122 Tunnell Rd. this was her sister in law. Why not mention Alice Alexander? Also listed herself as b. in Liverpool and Religion C of E. This was March 25, 1922 traveling to join husband in Mooose Jaw Sask.
Alleson
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PS: Alice was 121 Richmond Row on her GRO marriage. And Margaret not Maggie was the 15 year old in the said records.