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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: Red Tom on Friday 28 June 13 20:17 BST (UK)
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Hello folks, I am seeking help again with another obstacle to my research.
I can find no trace of the marriage of Thomas Davies birth unknown, and Mary Power,c1846 born Liverpool.As I have it, their first 4 children were born L/pool, their last in Garston. Lancs.
Can anyone help?
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Hello,
do you have the family in any censuses and the names/births of the children?
regards
heywood
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Hi
There is a marriage for Thomas Davies and Mary Powel
23rd March 1846 Fownhope With Fawleye,Hereford,England
from www.familysearch.org
Heather
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I'm sorry Heather, I was sloppy there, the date of 1846 is the year of Mary Power's birth,and Heywood, I have Mary and some of her children in Garston,Lancs for the 1881 census, by which time Thomas had died (possibly at sea,as he was a mariner).
The only child I have a birth cert for is Robert, born Garston.22/12/1877, which is where I discovered Mary's maiden name.
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Hiya Tom -
Thomas Davies
Mary Power ..................very common names in Garston - and obviously Liverpool
are you sure that the first 4 - and Robert are the same parents ??...could easily be 2 sets of parents with the same names ...do you have them all in 1881 census in Garston - if so does it not give Thomas`s birth place ?
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Hello again Alan, I've got Mary and her children in 1881, the first four being born in L/pool, and the youngest in Garston. Mary is Head of household , as by now she is widowed. I've posted previously in an attempt to discover about her husband, but I only recently got Robert's birth cert, so it's the marriage I'm trying to follow so as to discover more re Thomas the husband,but I can find no sight in my feeble efforts so far.
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There is a baptism for Joannis (John) Davis, 27 February 1873 with parents Thomas Davis and Mary Power - St Joseph's.
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That's one of the children as I have it (so far),the others are -Elizabeth c1869/Margaret c1871/(John c1873)/Thomas c1874 (all born Liverpool) and Robert born 22/12/1877, Garston.
I've searched for marriages post 1869 in Liverpool, but family lore has a Welsh man somewhere in the mix, and given that Thomas Davies was a mariner??....,but I'm hoping that isn't the case and the marriage took place in Liverpool.Oddly, I came across a baptism for a Robert Davies in Everton in 1881, but have discounted it as a red herring.
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John Davis was baptised at St Joseph's - godmother Mary Ann Stafford
There is a baptism for Elizabeth Davis 15th January 1870 but birth is 1st July 1868 and the godmother is Catherine Stafford.
22nd August 1870 Margaret Davies -parents Thomas and Mary at the same church- godmother Margaret Connell but not sure if this is the same family.
I can't see these children though in 1871 :-\
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Here is Robert's baptism:
St Augustine's 7th January 1878 born 22 December 1877 - Robert parents Thomas and Mary -godparent Mary Ann Power (names all in Latin though)
and at the same church
11th September 1875 born 5th September 1875 Thomas parents Thomas and Mary
godparent Mary Concannon
in both these cases, Mary is transcribed as 'Tower'.
I give the godparents to see if they help but so far - no :(
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So - are we saying that Robert - although born in Garston 22nd dec 1877- is baptised in St Augustines church,Everton - 7th jan 1888 ?....Garston to Everton is about 9 miles ...
marriage index for St Augustine - no Davies /Power marriage there
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~hibernia/disk001/mar/augmar.htm
I will have a scout around for a marriage ....obviously Roman Catholic -
added - no joy on marriage
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are we missing something here ?
Could Mary Power have been a previously married surname ?
could her marriage to Thomas have been her Second marriage ?
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Good morning Alan, no,you're on the right track,(the confusion is an old one which I've encountered previously) for St Augustine's, read St Austin's,Grassendale/Garston) this has been discussed previously on here, the Everton thing had me puzzled for quite a while, but the Garston link is the one!!
Thank you Heywood,I've also encountered the Power/Tower transcription error before.
Thomas jnr died young (as the family story bears out), the godparent names could help possibly, Concannon not so much perhaps, but Mary Ann Power I'm assuming to be the mother's sister-in-law?
I did say when I began this thread that it was tricky!!
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Hello again Alan, I've got Mary and her children in 1881, the first four being born in L/pool, and the youngest in Garston. Mary is Head of household , as by now she is widowed. I've posted previously in an attempt to discover about her husband, but I only recently got Robert's birth cert, so it's the marriage I'm trying to follow so as to discover more re Thomas the husband,but I can find no sight in my feeble efforts so far.
Hiya Tom - does the 1881 census include Thomas Jnr - or had he already passed away by then ?
if he was still alive and died a little later - could he be buried in St Austins churchyard ?...I am only 2 bus stops away from St Austins - I could walk up and have a look if you like
allan
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Hi Tom
Can I just be clear - do you already have all this information that I have posted and spent a long time searching for ?
Regards
Heywood
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Heywood did you notice in St Josephs the baptism after Elizabeth Davis is a child of Catherine Stafford and her husband,
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Hi Radcliff,
yes I had seen that and I know at some point I looked for Catherine Stafford ::)
I notice that their child's godmother is Mary Jones. I have been trying to see if Mary Davies is a godmother to anyone with a familiar surname :)
thanks
heywood
Addded: There is a James and Kate Stafford both born Ireland living in Bevington Bush in 1871. (Interesting because of the song :) )
Would that be the right area for St Joseph's, Allan?
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Hiya Tom - does the 1881 census include Thomas Jnr - or had he already passed away by then ?
if he was still alive and died a little later - could he be buried in St Austins churchyard ?...I am only 2 bus stops away from St Austins - I could walk up and have a look if you like
allan
Allan,
Liverpool History Projects shows a burial in St Austins:
Thomas Davies 13 yrs November 1888
http://www.liverpoolhistoryprojects.co.uk/liverpoolrcburials/staustin.htm
heywood
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Hi Tom
Can I just be clear - do you already have all this information that I have posted and spent a long time searching for ?
Regards
Heywood
Please forgive my lapse of manners Heywood, it was not my intention to ignore your input and efforts on my behalf,it's just that the info is coming in at a rate slightly faster than I can keep up with.All and any information which may help me to further this project is greatly appreciated, believe me.
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Hello again Alan, I've got Mary and her children in 1881, the first four being born in L/pool, and the youngest in Garston. Mary is Head of household , as by now she is widowed. I've posted previously in an attempt to discover about her husband, but I only recently got Robert's birth cert, so it's the marriage I'm trying to follow so as to discover more re Thomas the husband,but I can find no sight in my feeble efforts so far.
Hiya Tom - does the 1881 census include Thomas Jnr - or had he already passed away by then ?
if he was still alive and died a little later - could he be buried in St Austins churchyard ?...I am only 2 bus stops away from St Austins - I could walk up and have a look if you like
allan
Sorry Alan, I'm going about this a bit cack-handed today,Thomas jnr died 16/11/1888, and probably is buried in Grassendale, but as any inscription isn't likely to shed any further info on the marriage of his parents, it would probably be a waste of your time.
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Are but there may be other names on that headstone,in Grassendale,nothings a waste of time,to a Rootschatter,
well maybe housework and Ironing,
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A very good point Radcliff, well observed.Thank you for that.
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Tom,
I was only bothered that you already knew what I was finding and I would be wasting my time to continue - no criticism, just clarity ;)
I would say, that we have to accept that there is probably no marriage for whatever reasons.
If we have the right Elizabeth's baptism, she was born a couple of years before - perhaps to a single mum Mary - or a dad, Thomas and other mother. The other children are baptised within a short time - Catholic practice. One would imagine that Mary would be the Catholic so perhaps Elizabeth is not her child.
Also several times, the family are referred to as Davis without the 'e'. Maybe there is something in that - maybe not!
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Tom,
I was only bothered that you already knew what I was finding and I would be wasting my time to continue - no criticism, just clarity ;)
I would say, that we have to accept that there is probably no marriage for whatever reasons.
If we have the right Elizabeth's baptism, she was born a couple of years before - perhaps to a single mum Mary - or a dad, Thomas and other mother. The other children are baptised within a short time - Catholic practice. One would imagine that Mary would be the Catholic so perhaps Elizabeth is not her child.
Also several times, the family are referred to as Davis without the 'e'. Maybe there is something in that - maybe not!
Thank you Heywood, it doesn't look too promising I have to agree.
For reasons of budgetary constraint, I'm unable to purchase each and every certificate I would wish for,so have to choose carefully, is there anything to be gained, do you think, in me obtaining the birth cert for Elizabeth, in an attempt to work backwards in some way? (or is it Straw Clutching time?!)
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Well, I can't believe this - after all that searching!
1871 3762 / 77 / 15
Thomas Davies lodger head 28 yrs Room Keeper (finance assist.) b Wales Denbigh
Mary wife 27 yrs b Ireland
Elizabeth 3 yrs b Liverpool
Michael Power 62 yrs widower Cooper b Ireland
They are possibly living in Sumner Street - poor writing- and young Elizabeth has been transcribed as the daughter of the householder - Elizabeth Mercer but she is clearly a Davies.
What makes it really interesting, is that yesterday, I was searching for a Robert Power who married a Mary Ann Davies. Thy had a child with a godparent Maria Davies.I found Robert as son to Michael Power.
If you recall, there is mention of a Mary Ann Power as a godparent.
In 1861 2654/ 266/ 16
Michael and Catherine Power have a daughter and grandson
Mary Dunnion 20 yrs b 1821 Ireland
Michel J Dunnion 2 yrs b Liverpool
Also there is a son to M and C
Robert Power son 16 yrs
Birth 1859 Michael J Denion
Death 1862 Michael Dunnion
Because of discrepancies with Mary's age and place of birth etc i was going to have another look today before posting this.
I will now let you peruse this and see what you think. In the searching yesterday there is quit a bit of difficult spelling/Latin and mis transcribing but I couldn't spot a Dunnion marriage.
Regards
Heywood
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Don`t know any Dunnion families in Garston area - but I do know a Denion family
allan
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This was one example of difficulty:
Baptism Our Lady of Reconciliation De La Salette November 1859
Michael Joannes Demion parents Joannes Demion and Mary Pavier
Name has been changed to Dunion in register and it should read Power
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TOM ...think about this mate - your relation in Garston -brother of S***** Davies - his christian name D***** the same as the surname mentioned ...son of Dennis and L*** Davies ..so that find by Heywood is precious ....great info ...
allan
ps...I have often wondered where the name D***** came from ...maybe this explains it ?
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In 1861 the Power/Dunnion are in Halls CRT and next entry is Portland Street.
Michael J, 1862 and a baby Robert Dunnion, 1863 are both buried from Portland Street.
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TOM ...think about this mate - your relation in Garston -brother of ** Davies - his christian name ***Davies ...son of D**and L**Davies ..so that find by Heywood is precious ....great info ...
allan
ps...I have often wondered where the name came from ...maybe this explains it ?
I don't know anything about this person but could that not just be a Latinised variation.
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Everyone calls him D***** ..??...I presumed it was his given christian name
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Good grief chaps, I've gone from virtually giving up this morning to this deluge of info!!, please allow me to absorb this lot, there must surely be something here. I am extremely grateful for your efforts on my behalf.
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Everyone calls him *** ..??...I presumed it was his given christian name
I believe you :D
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Everyone calls him Denion ..??...I presumed it was his given christian name
I'll make some enquiries today re this.
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OK Tom...now you`ve read it - I will delete the names as they are living ...off to St Austins to see if there`s a headstone for young Thomas ,,,I`ll let you know if there is later
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Couldn`t find Thomas aged 13
Mary Davies
Margaret Davies
Sarah Cox ( nee Davies ) all in one grave ......last one Sarah buried 1910 ???
maybe make a note of them ?
a bit surprised I couldn`t find Thomas because there is only about a dozen unmarked graves in the whole churchyard,,,loads of Tipping family ,,,my gg grandmothers surname - but we are C of E??...BUT the only Tipping family I know of in Garston are all related to my gg grandmother ...so it was worth my walk because I presume they are my family ...lol
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Couldn`t find Thomas aged 13
Mary Davies
Margaret Davies
Sarah Cox ( nee Davies ) all in one grave ......last one Sarah buried 1910 ???
maybe make a note of them ?
a bit surprised I couldn`t find Thomas because there is only about a dozen unmarked graves in the whole churchyard,,,loads of Tipping family ,,,my gg grandmothers surname - but we are C of E??...BUT the only Tipping family I know of in Garston are all related to my gg grandmother ...so it was worth my walk because I presume they are my family ...lol
Thank you Alan, I hope the weather was better there than it was in New Brighton!
Depending on the dates,Mary and Margaret could fit the bill, but as Robert (1877) was (possibly?) the last born child of Thomas and Mary, I don't see a Sarah in the family, which could put the mockers on it.
I've checked on the name'Dennion', waiting for a reply to confirm.
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In 1861 the Power/Dunnion are in Halls CRT and next entry is Portland Street.
Michael J, 1862 and a baby Robert Dunnion, 1863 are both buried from Portland Street.
You've been busy indeed Heywood,and I'm hoping this is a significant lead, (still working it out !). just one point, Halls CRT??
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Well, I can't believe this - after all that searching!
1871 3762 / 77 / 15
Thomas Davies lodger head 28 yrs Room Keeper (finance assist.) b Wales Denbigh
Mary wife 27 yrs b Ireland
Elizabeth 3 yrs b Liverpool
Michael Power 62 yrs widower Cooper b Ireland
They are possibly living in Sumner Street - poor writing- and young Elizabeth has been transcribed as the daughter of the householder - Elizabeth Mercer but she is clearly a Davies.
What makes it really interesting, is that yesterday, I was searching for a Robert Power who married a Mary Ann Davies. Thy had a child with a godparent Maria Davies.I found Robert as son to Michael Power.
If you recall, there is mention of a Mary Ann Power as a godparent.
In 1861 2654/ 266/ 16
Michael and Catherine Power have a daughter and grandson
Mary Dunnion 20 yrs b 1821 Ireland
Michel J Dunnion 2 yrs b Liverpool
Also there is a son to M and C
Robert Power son 16 yrs
Birth 1859 Michael J Denion
Death 1862 Michael Dunnion
Because of discrepancies with Mary's age and place of birth etc i was going to have another look today before posting this.
I will now let you peruse this and see what you think. In the searching yesterday there is quit a bit of difficult spelling/Latin and mis transcribing but I couldn't spot a Dunnion marriage.
Regards
Heywood
Hello Heywood, I'm still trying to absorb all of this,so bear with me.
One thing I have noticed, what exactly is the nature of Thomas's occupation? -'Room Keeper' seems fairly straight forward, but (finance assist') has got me.I was expecting to see a marine occupation.
Thanks again for this Heywood.
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Sorry- I think it reads Halls Court - don't know what happened with the capital letters :D
Presumably it was a Court off Portland Street as the next family on the census are living on Portland Street.
Just crossed here with your latest message.
I did read it a couple of times and it certainly looks Room Keeper - I thought it might be have been 'Book keeper' with the next bit re finance but it begins with 'R'
Then in brackets (finance as...) can't think what else it could be but it is not clear). It looks to be written at the same time though not added later.
What is his occupation on Robert's birth certificate?
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On his birth cert-'Fireman', and his marriage- 'Mariner, fireman',which we've previously taken to be- stoker. I've found three possible seamen who died at sea between 1877 and the 1881 census,but confirmation is a while off I think!!
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I am going to try to attach the occupation
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From what I have read in the past - these Court houses had possibly 4 families in each house - and with a possible 16 houses in a Court ...could he have been looking after all the properties ( Roomkeeper)- and also collect the rent ( Finance Assist ?)...a bit like a Caretaker in todays modern blocks of flats
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Just mulling over the info and some thoughts.
It might be that the Power line I followed is wrong and just coincidence.
We have those baptisms but only Robert's birth details.
Margaret Ann hasn't been found other than in 1881.
I would say, Tom, that a birth certificate for John or Thomas is your next move when you have saved up :). Because of the common names and the Davis/Davies, you should say that you want Power as mother's name. I haven't looked at BMD for any possibilities.
Heywood
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Thank you Heywood, I suspect you're right, I'll take your advice and add one of them to my 'wants' list. I don't anticipate any further breaks on this one, so I'd like to say thank you to yourself, Alan, and everyone who has pitched in with info, and let this rest for the time being.
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Everyone calls him Denion ..??...I presumed it was his given christian name
I'll make some enquiries today re this.
Alan, I've checked and you were correct about the unusual forename of my wife's relative!, I'll find out via his mother where the name originated in the next few days.
Regards, Tom.