RootsChat.Com
Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Fermanagh => Topic started by: bendywendy on Monday 01 July 13 20:30 BST (UK)
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Hi everyone
I need help please in finding a birth/baptism for a Mary Little c1827-1837 Fermanagh her YOB varies on cen 1861-1891 - 3 X c1835-37 and 1 X c1827
She married, or I assume she married, Patrick Fitzpatrick c1823-27 Cavan. I cannot find this marriage in Scotland's People or UK so I assume it was in Ireland nor can I find his birth/baptism.
They first appear on 1861 cen Hawick, Scotland where 1st born Margaret birth reg 15 Jan 1859 Bothwell, Lanarkshire - two further children Anne J reg as Mary Ann 1860 Hawick, Roxburgh, Scotland & Patrick 1862 Cavers, Roxburgh, Scotland all 3 give mother Mary's maiden name as Little and a further 3 born at Warrington, Lancashire, England, Mary Elizabeth, Thomas & John.
On Patrick's birth reg there is a date and place underneath his mother's details which I think is possibly the marriage:
1858 March, Newtonbuttal ??? Ireland - could it mean Newtownbutler ???
I believe Mary & Patrick died at Warrington 1896 & 1897 as I cannot find them on the 1901 census.
So can anyone help with birth/baptism and marriage for Mary & Patrick please.
Kind regards
bendywendy
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With the exception of a few years around 1856, Scottish birth certificates always contain the date and place where the parents married (assuming it was a legitimate birth). So the information on the certificate you have found almost certainly is the marriage details. If in any doubt I suggest you get one or more of the other births to see what they contain.
You don’t say what denomination the couple were but I suspect RC. RC marriages in Ireland weren’t included in the civil registers till 1864 (non RC were recorded from 1845 onwards).
Newtownbutler is in the parish of Galloon. A copy of the RC parish records is held in PRONI, Belfast. This is what they have:
R.C. Galloon (Drummully and Newtownbutler) (Clogher diocese)
Baptisms, 1853-9 and 1863-81; marriages, 1847-79.
Having said that you may not get much more than the couples names and their two witnesses. RC marriage records from that period don’t contain a lot of information.
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Many thanks Elwyn
As yet I don't know what religion they were.
On the other 2 Scottish birth reg's there are NO marriage details given, only mothers maiden name.
PRONI, Belfast, found the website ;D
As for their births then it could be a needle in the haystack job, given that I only have an area and not a town, village etc., with in them >:(
Once again thanks,
b.
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I’ve checked the Irish civil indexes for marriages and there’s no marriage for Patrick Fitzpatrick to a Mary Little in 1858. So that suggests to me that it must have been an RC ceremony. The Galloon parish records are available so it should be easy enough to verify. It’s just they are not on-line.
If the couple both come from that parish then it looks as though you won’t find their births. Statutory registration of births didn’t start in Ireland till 1864. The baptism records for the parish (assuming they were RC) only start in 1853. So there are no surviving birth or baptism records to search.
There’s 21 Fitzpatrick and about 8 Little households in Galloon parish in Griffiths Valuation, so that gives you some townlands to focus on.
http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/index.xml?action=nameSearch
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Hi again
Irish FH is complicated, this is my son in laws paternal line and he asked what I can find, well maybe this could be the end of the line, unless I can find more details on their marriage cert.
Thanks
b.
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I have sent email to PRONI to ask if they will look for the marriage.
Does anyone know anything about birth/baptism records for Cavan where Patrick states on 1871 cen was is his birthplace ???
bendywendy
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This tells you what RC records exist:
http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/browse/counties/rcmaps/cavanrc.htm
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Thanks Elwyn :)
b.
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Come across this for Newtownbulter, at present only graveyard info but births and marriages are to follow.
http://www.discovereverafter.com/graveyards/87/st-marys-roman-catholic-church-newtownbutler-co-fermanagh
St. Mary's Roman Catholic Church Newtownbutler, Co. Fermanagh
bendywendy
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I have now found them on 1891 census and both just state born Ireland, tis 1871 which states Cavan and Fermanagh.
They have been transcribed as Patrick Foley Patrick and wife n children surname as Patrick and living at 1 off Oxford Lane, Warrington.
Patrick snr is a Retired Railway Servant, sons Patrick jnr & Thomas are also Railway Servants, it is Thomas whose line decends to my son in law, being his Great Grandfather, he became a Torpedo Net/Wire Maker on 1901/11 census's, which seems a fascinating occupation. It is believed in later years he either worked for a Taxi rank or owned his own Taxi business in Warrington.
Cannot find Patrick n Mary on 1901 census so I do believe that those deaths are theirs in Warrington.
Could Mary's surname Little be spelt in other ways in Ireland
b.
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Could Mary's surname Little be spelt in other ways in Ireland
b.
Yes Lyttle.
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You’ll find a load of Little & Fitzpatrick references in the Gallon parish records from the Fermanagh Gold site:
http://www.fermanagh-gold.com/search1?term=little&catalog=Galloon&subcat=
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Now I found something on rootsweb abt Fermanagh Gold, so many thanks for this link, I will have a look around it later.
I have sent an email to Fermanagh Gold rootsweb asking if they can help with finding the marriage, not had an reply from them or from PRONI as yet.
b.
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I need a bit more help please
I have had a reply from PRONI Belfast re the marriage look up, they need to know which church I want them to search for, will cost £15.50 per film for them to search.
On the list is Newtownbutler both Methodist and RC, now I know Elwyn said this marriage wasn't listed on the Irish Civil Index, but, would this civil list have covered marriages from the Methodist church too ???
Trying to eliminate one or the other or plump for RC.
b.
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Registration of Catholic marriages began in 1864 and ALL other marriages were recorded from 1845.
At the time registration started, some denominations were not recognised as legal marriages but the couple would have gone to the local Registry Office for a legal ceremony and then quite often another service would have been performed in their own church by their own minister (if these marriages were announced in the local newspaper the church, and not the Registry Office, would almost always be listed as the venue).
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Bendywendy,
I can save you £15.50. I was in PRONI today and I found your marriage. It was RC, and on 15th Feb 1858 in Drumully (Galloon) parish. (PRONI: MIC1D/15). Send me a PM with your e-mail address and I’ll send you a copy of the entry. (It's in Latin, so hope you are up to translating that).
Elwyn
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WOW, THANK YOU Elwyn...... :o ;D
email on way now....
b.
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Can anyone help to translate this from Latin to English please .. 1/2
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and to translate the bottom half too please 2/2
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Can anyone see the actual image on the thread, me not very good at reducing the pixels etc ::)
b.
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Unless the rules have changed recently, you aren't allowed to copy images from PRONI church records (to do with agreements made with the churches when they originally copied the records) although you are allowed to transcribe by hand.
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aghadowey, umh no idea abt this, maybe Elwyn can assist as he obtained the copy.
b.
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Found these death dates for the Little family of Newtownbutler for the period 1864-1877. They may be of some help to you.
Sarah Little: 16th August 1865; Age: 22
Robert Little: 6th April 1866; Age: 79
Mary Little: 4th January 1867; Age: 78
Henry Little: 11th May 1867; Age: 60
Mary Little: 10th February 1868; Age:1
Mary Little: 10th February 1868; Age:1
William Little: 8th March 1869; Age:76
Henry Little: 17th June 1870; Age: 0
William Little: 6th July 1870; Age: 0
Susan Little: 8th July 1870; Age: 0
Robert Little: 7th April 1875 ; Age: 63
William Little: 3rd March 1877; Age: 17
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Many thanks paseo for taking the time.
b.