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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: tilly56 on Sunday 14 July 13 14:22 BST (UK)

Title: Julia Venturney née Cooke..... and Jack the Ripper!
Post by: tilly56 on Sunday 14 July 13 14:22 BST (UK)
I have just come back to my genealogy after quite a long break, and am trying to find information about Julia Venturney née Cooke.  She is the daughter of my Gtx3 Grandfather Richard Cooke and married Antonio Venturney.   They had two daughters Rosina Antonet Julia born in 1864 in Fulham (I have baptism record) and Charlotte (or Charlotta) Ann born in 1868.  Rosiana's surname in the records is given as Venteney.

I have Julia and her two daughters in the 1871 census, when they are living with her father, Richard in Fulham, at No 2 Little John's Place.  I think Richard died in 1893, I cannot find him in 1881 or 1891.

Now to Jack the Ripper!!  Julia was, apparently, a witness at the inquest into the murder of Mary Ann Kelly!!  In 1871, Julia's profession is "Professional" which, I think, meant "prostitute". 

There are a couple of interesting forums (now closed) on internet, giving information about Julia at the inquest.  One piece of information even says that Mary Ann Kelly might have been killed by mistake, as Jack the ripper was really aiming for Julia :o  Apparently Mary Ann was younger than his other victims, and he might have seen Julia leaving her house......  At the time of the inquest Julia was living at 1 Miller's Court, this was in November 1888.

In her testimony, Julia Venturney described herself as a widow and said that at the time of Kelly's murder she was living at 1 Miller's Court with a man named Harry Owen.

I would be VERY grateful for any help in finding more information about Julia or her daughters.  I think Charlotte might have died in 1885.  One problem is that the surname is spelt in several different ways Venturney, Venteney....

With many thanks

Tilly
Title: Re: Julia Venturney née Cooke..... and Jack the Ripper!
Post by: Milliepede on Sunday 14 July 13 15:46 BST (UK)
Goodness that's quite a story isn't it  :o

I don't know what "professional" does mean but in 1861 she was a dressmaker same as her mother.

Title: Re: Julia Venturney née Cooke..... and Jack the Ripper!
Post by: Milliepede on Sunday 14 July 13 15:52 BST (UK)
Yes the Charlotte Ventreney who died 1885 age 16 Whitechapel district could be her  :(

You could send for the death certificate to be sure but the surname is unusual enough.
Title: Re: Julia Venturney née Cooke..... and Jack the Ripper!
Post by: sallyyorks on Sunday 14 July 13 20:00 BST (UK)
Goodness that's quite a story isn't it  :o

I don't know what "professional" does mean but in 1861 she was a dressmaker same as her mother.

I think "dressmaker" was sometimes written on the census as a euphemism for prostitute  :-\ . I'm sure i remember some topics/or conversations on this site about it  .
Title: Re: Julia Venturney née Cooke..... and Jack the Ripper!
Post by: ..claire.. on Sunday 14 July 13 20:34 BST (UK)
There are a few of reports in the newspapers mentioning Julia

The Morning Post, Tuesday, November 13, 1888
Julia Venturney of 1 Millers Court said she had known Mrs Kelly for some time. She had told the witness that she was very fond of another man besides the one she was living with. He would come and see her and give her money. The witness heard no noises on Thursday night.

Very similar piece,

The York Herald, Tuesday, November 13, 1888
Julia Venturney said. " I am a charwoman and I live at Millers Court. The deceased told me that she liked another man, other than Joe Barnett, and he came to see her. I was at home on Thursday night and had there been any noise I would have heard them.

And again

The Bristol Mercury and Daily Post, Tuesday, November 13, 1888
Julia Venturney deposed- I occupy a room at Millers Court. I knew the deceased. It was some time before I was aquainted with her, but when I knew her she said she was married and her name was Kelly. There was no noise that night and I heard no singing. If there had been singing I would have heard it.

claire


Title: Re: Julia Venturney née Cooke..... and Jack the Ripper!
Post by: ShaunJ on Sunday 14 July 13 20:41 BST (UK)
Have you seen the entry for Lottie Ventorney in the 1911 census? The name would would tie in with the "Lottie" Owen in Dorset Street in the 1891 census

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XWG1-7R8
Title: Re: Julia Venturney née Cooke..... and Jack the Ripper!
Post by: ShaunJ on Sunday 14 July 13 20:57 BST (UK)
Quote
Julia Venturney described herself as a widow

Possibly the widow of Antonio Venturine who died in Marylebone in 1871, aged 46?
Title: Re: Julia Venturney née Cooke..... and Jack the Ripper!
Post by: Milliepede on Sunday 14 July 13 22:28 BST (UK)
That's a good find.  Julia as Lottie - her mother was Charlotte if I recall from earlier census.

Can't see her as Lottie Owen in 1891 - who was she living with there?
Title: Re: Julia Venturney née Cooke..... and Jack the Ripper!
Post by: Milliepede on Sunday 14 July 13 22:40 BST (UK)
I wonder if this could be her death?

Lottie Montreney age 73
Birth abt 1841
Death Jan 1914 Whitechapel London

Looking at the register of deaths it could easily be a V instead of an M.
Date of death 1 Feb 1914
Cause of death Bronchitis, emphysema, heart failure
Where buried Streatham Park
Title: Re: Julia Venturney née Cooke..... and Jack the Ripper!
Post by: ShaunJ on Sunday 14 July 13 22:42 BST (UK)
Re the Owens in 1891- Lottie is with Harry or Henry Owen at 26 Dorset(t) Street ( same location as Mary Jane Kelly murder?)


"Between these properties was a brick archway which led to Miller's Court. Mary Jane Kelly's room (No.13) was actually the partitioned-off back room of 26 Dorset Street." http://wiki.casebook.org/index.php/Dorset_Street
Title: Re: Julia Venturney née Cooke..... and Jack the Ripper!
Post by: Milliepede on Sunday 14 July 13 22:51 BST (UK)
Right got it thanks.  She is under Lotte so I missed it before!

Title: Re: Julia Venturney née Cooke..... and Jack the Ripper!
Post by: tilly56 on Monday 15 July 13 08:41 BST (UK)
WOW  ;D  I knew I could count on Rooters to help me!!  I switched on my computer this morning and saw all the replies. Thank you all very much!! It seems to fit perfectly to me.  I haven't had a proper read yet, but will do so during the day and get back to you all.

Tilly :)
Title: Re: Julia Venturney née Cooke..... and Jack the Ripper!
Post by: tilly56 on Monday 15 July 13 09:39 BST (UK)
Decided that this was more interesting than work.... so am doing some more hunting using the information you all sent to me - and I think I have found Antonio in 1861 - this time he is Antonio Vanturine (the handwriting is very difficult to read), living at 87 Regent Street and is a porter. Born in Lacca, Italy.

Tilly
Title: Re: Julia Venturney née Cooke..... and Jack the Ripper!
Post by: Milliepede on Monday 15 July 13 09:51 BST (UK)
Thank you for putting it on Tilly it's fascinating to work on  :)
Title: Re: Julia Venturney née Cooke..... and Jack the Ripper!
Post by: ShaunJ on Monday 15 July 13 09:53 BST (UK)
There's the death of a Rosina Ventorini in Dartford in 1903, aged 36

Q/E Dec 1903 2A 324

And there's an R. Ventorini aged 33, a lunatic, in an institution in Dartford in the 1901 census
Title: Re: Julia Venturney née Cooke..... and Jack the Ripper!
Post by: tilly56 on Monday 15 July 13 09:58 BST (UK)
Thank you!  That sounds like our Rosie!!

It is interesting, isn't it!! It is strange that no echoes of this story have come down through the generations... although this side of the family were very clever at ignoring things that didn't suit them!!

I wondered whether Julia used the name Lottie so that people would not make the link to the Jack the Ripper case... 

Tilly
Title: Re: Julia Venturney née Cooke..... and Jack the Ripper!
Post by: tilly56 on Monday 15 July 13 10:09 BST (UK)
i can't find Julia/Lottie in 1891... any help please?   ???Have tried under Harry Owen, but am obviously not putting in the right info (I use Ancestry)

Tilly
Title: Re: Julia Venturney née Cooke..... and Jack the Ripper!
Post by: Milliepede on Monday 15 July 13 10:09 BST (UK)
Rosina Ventorini is a patient in Darenth Kent in 1891 but her age is given as 64 born 1827 - maybe a mistake?
All the ages are crossed through so difficult to tell what it is.  I can make out a 4 so maybe 24 to fit with your Rosina.
Title: Re: Julia Venturney née Cooke..... and Jack the Ripper!
Post by: Jool on Monday 15 July 13 10:10 BST (UK)
Fascinating story Tilly.  This details some quite shocking and gorey details of the murder.  The 'Return to London' section claims Julia was German, and Joe Barnett referrs to Julia as a prostitute who shared a room with Mary Kelly.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:zcjPsfFjhN0J:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Jane_Kelly%2Bmary++kelly+julia&hl=en-GB&redir_esc=&ct=clnk

Jool
Title: Re: Julia Venturney née Cooke..... and Jack the Ripper!
Post by: tilly56 on Monday 15 July 13 10:23 BST (UK)
Thank you Milliepede - I am pretty sure that is Rosina, unlikely there would be two with the same name in lunatic asylum!!

Thank you for the link Jool - I think that the "German" came from the fact that her surname was written in various ways, sometimes Van Turney or some such thing.

It's a brilliant story!! But am starting to find it quite sad, what with the lunatic asylum for Rosina, Charlotta dying young and Julia must have had a very hard life.  I am going over to England soon and I think that I shall do some research to see if Julia's grave is still visible and go and visit her!! :'(

Can't have been much fun for Richard Cooke ,the father, either!!

I wonder what he thought of all this - or even knew about!!

Tilly
Title: Re: Julia Venturney née Cooke..... and Jack the Ripper!
Post by: Milliepede on Monday 15 July 13 10:28 BST (UK)
I wish I could find mother and daughters in 1881 but I can't.  Nor Julia/Lottie in 1891 but will keep looking *
Antonio should be somewhere in 1871 as well because he didn't die until after the census.  I wonder when he came over to England from Italy and did they get married or not so many questions!

I suspect her father would have been aware oh dear :(

* correction sorry we have her in 1891 - look under Lotte Owen (not Lottie) and you should find her.
Title: Re: Julia Venturney née Cooke..... and Jack the Ripper!
Post by: ShaunJ on Monday 15 July 13 10:55 BST (UK)
1881 - check out Rosina "Tentouni " aged 14 in the Metropolitan Imbecile Asylum & Schools at Darenth - from Kensington parish
Title: Re: Julia Venturney née Cooke..... and Jack the Ripper!
Post by: ShaunJ on Monday 15 July 13 11:14 BST (UK)
Mary Kelly's friend "Lottie" living at the still-bloodstained 13 Millers Court ( rear of 26 Dorset Street) interviewed by Canadian journalist Kathleen Blake Watkins in February 1892:

http://tinyurl.com/o2lvq7y

http://www.casebook.org/dissertations/rip-kit.html
Title: Re: Julia Venturney née Cooke..... and Jack the Ripper!
Post by: tilly56 on Monday 15 July 13 12:13 BST (UK)
Thank you Shaun - I have found Rosina in 1881 and the two links certainly make interesting reading!  Poor Julia..........  I suppose that the husband who kicked her and broke her nose was Harry Owen... now, were they really married, I wonder!!

Milliepede - I still can't find her in 1891 - I am obviously being dim!!  :-[HELP!!

Tilly
Title: Re: Julia Venturney née Cooke..... and Jack the Ripper!
Post by: Milliepede on Monday 15 July 13 12:45 BST (UK)
Oh no!  Excuse caps but type in LOTTE OWEN in the 1891 search name boxes - nothing else and it should be the first one that comes up.  I am using ancestry too. 
Maybe you are automatically typing the name properly as LOTTIE  :)
Title: Re: Julia Venturney née Cooke..... and Jack the Ripper!
Post by: tilly56 on Monday 15 July 13 12:49 BST (UK)
Got her!! I'm sure I was typing Lotte and not Lottie.... let's blame it on Ancestry!! ;D

Thank you very much again

Tilly
Title: Re: Julia Venturney née Cooke..... and Jack the Ripper!
Post by: Milliepede on Monday 15 July 13 13:00 BST (UK)
Yay ;D


Title: Re: Julia Venturney née Cooke..... and Jack the Ripper!
Post by: Jool on Monday 15 July 13 15:12 BST (UK)
There are a few of reports in the newspapers mentioning Julia

The Morning Post, Tuesday, November 13, 1888
Julia Venturney of 1 Millers Court said she had known Mrs Kelly for some time. She had told the witness that she was very fond of another man besides the one she was living with. He would come and see her and give her money. The witness heard no noises on Thursday night.

Very similar piece,

The York Herald, Tuesday, November 13, 1888
Julia Venturney said. " I am a charwoman and I live at Millers Court. The deceased told me that she liked another man, other than Joe Barnett, and he came to see her. I was at home on Thursday night and had there been any noise I would have heard them.

And again

The Bristol Mercury and Daily Post, Tuesday, November 13, 1888
Julia Venturney deposed- I occupy a room at Millers Court. I knew the deceased. It was some time before I was aquainted with her, but when I knew her she said she was married and her name was Kelly. There was no noise that night and I heard no singing. If there had been singing I would have heard it.

claire

http://www.casebook.org/dissertations/rip-kit.html

Not wishing to throw doubt on the great work by Rootschatters, but the newspaper reports of Julia's witness statement claim she heard no singing on the night Mary Kelly was murdered. However the link posted above by ShaunJ detailing a later interview with "Lottie" she claims to have heard singing  ???
Title: Re: Julia Venturney née Cooke..... and Jack the Ripper!
Post by: ShaunJ on Monday 15 July 13 15:31 BST (UK)
Inconsistencies in Julia's statements seems to have been picked up by the press in 1888

http://wiki.casebook.org/index.php/Julia_Venturney
Title: Re: Julia Venturney née Cooke..... and Jack the Ripper!
Post by: tilly56 on Monday 15 July 13 17:30 BST (UK)
I imagine that Julia wasn't particularly well educated and she could well have "embroidered" (as they say in France!!) her story to make it a bit more interesting.....

Jool - you think that Julia and Lottie might not be the same person?  I suppose there is a possibility this is so, but all the dates etc seem to fit...

Tilly ???

Title: Re: Julia Venturney née Cooke..... and Jack the Ripper!
Post by: tilly56 on Monday 15 July 13 17:38 BST (UK)
In the link http://tinyurl.com/o2lvq7y given by Shaun, Lottie does say : "I was living further up the court then" ... I think she must be Julia...

Tilly

Title: Re: Julia Venturney née Cooke..... and Jack the Ripper!
Post by: tilly56 on Monday 15 July 13 17:45 BST (UK)
I think I have found Richard Cooke's marriage - 19th July 1831 to Charlotte Goodnough at Saint James,Westminster,London,England. I am quite sure it is my Richard Cooke as his name is given as Richard Denis Cooke - the same name as his son, Julia's sister, my ancestor.

Tilly
Title: Re: Julia Venturney née Cooke..... and Jack the Ripper!
Post by: Milliepede on Monday 15 July 13 20:06 BST (UK)
I wonder if this is Charlotte Cooke death.
Kensington Mar 1869 age 56
She was 49 on the 1861.

Richard Denis Cook
Kensington Dec 1871 age 70?
He was 67 on the 1871 but times were tough.
Title: Re: Julia Venturney née Cooke..... and Jack the Ripper!
Post by: Jool on Monday 15 July 13 23:48 BST (UK)
I imagine that Julia wasn't particularly well educated and she could well have "embroidered" (as they say in France!!) her story to make it a bit more interesting.....

Jool - you think that Julia and Lottie might not be the same person?  I suppose there is a possibility this is so, but all the dates etc seem to fit...

Tilly ???

Hi Tilly

I do believe that Julia and Lottie are the same person, as you say everything found so far seems to support this.  I just spotted the inconsistency in her statements so I posted the details to see what others made of it.  Maybe she liked a tipple and got a bit carried away  ;D

Jool
Title: Re: Julia Venturney née Cooke..... and Jack the Ripper!
Post by: tilly56 on Tuesday 16 July 13 09:59 BST (UK)
Hi Jool

I bet she did enjoy a tipple!! I think I would have, too if I'd had her life   ::) !!  Interesting for her descendants, but not much fun for her... although it sounds like she might almost have enjoyed the notoriety her friend's murder brought to her!

I know that in the future I shall watch all Jack the Ripper films and see if Julia pops up!

Thank you for the dates, Millie - they sound more than possible, especially Richard Denis Cooke.

I am going to go through and see which certificates might be worth ordering, to get some more info.

I wonder if the cemetery still exists.... more digging needed (whoops, I mean theoretical digging of course :-[ )

Tilly





Title: Re: Julia Venturney née Cooke..... and Jack the Ripper!
Post by: jaywit on Tuesday 16 July 13 10:40 BST (UK)
Tilly If you want to read about the kind of conditions Julia/ Lotte was living in I would suggest this book.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Blackest-Streets-Life-Death-Victorian/dp/1844133311

It may not cover the exact area but it will give you an idea of the East End living conditions.
Title: Re: Julia Venturney née Cooke..... and Jack the Ripper!
Post by: tilly56 on Tuesday 16 July 13 11:07 BST (UK)
Thank you Jaywit, I shall order it.  I put Julia's name into the search engine on Amazon and several books about Jack the Ripper came up, so I might buy one of them, too!

Tilly
Title: Re: Julia Venturney née Cooke..... and Jack the Ripper!
Post by: miriamkinga on Tuesday 16 July 13 11:35 BST (UK)
Absolutely fascinating thread Tilly, I've really enjoyed reading all about it  ;D
Title: Re: Julia Venturney née Cooke..... and Jack the Ripper!
Post by: Jool on Tuesday 16 July 13 18:58 BST (UK)
Tilly, Here's Julia's christening record.

Julia Cooke
Born 11 March 1840
Christened 14 March 1847
St. Pauls, Hammersmith
father Richard Dennis Cooke, mother Charlotte.

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NJ8Q-FFJ

Jool
Title: Re: Julia Venturney née Cooke..... and Jack the Ripper!
Post by: tilly56 on Tuesday 16 July 13 19:08 BST (UK)
I'm glad you're enjoying it, Miriam - I certainly am!!

And thank you very much for the record, Jool - another brick in the wall :)

Had an idea this afternoon that when I go to England in a couple of weeks, I'll be staying with my cousin in London and I usually take him to see something to do with our genealogy - so I thought we could do a Jack the Ripper tour!  There are regular tours in London, and it could be fun!! ;D

Tilly
Title: Re: Julia Venturney née Cooke..... and Jack the Ripper!
Post by: susan hemmings on Tuesday 16 July 13 20:54 BST (UK)
What a fascinating thread.  That tour sounds ideal for you tilly.

Well done all,

Susan
Title: Re: Julia Venturney née Cooke..... and Jack the Ripper!
Post by: cris2507 on Tuesday 16 July 13 23:36 BST (UK)
Hi Tilly
I have just caught up with your post about Julia Venturney.
I have written two books which featured material about Julia - the first was "Jack the Ripper, A Cast of Thousands" and the second "Will the Real Mary Kelly..."
If you want i can send you the material I have on Julia if that would be of any use.
Chris Scott
Title: Re: Julia Venturney née Cooke..... and Jack the Ripper!
Post by: tilly56 on Wednesday 17 July 13 07:12 BST (UK)
Good morning Chris

That would be very kind - thank you!

I saw your book "Will the real Mary Kelly..." on Amazon and it's one of the ones I thought of buying. I shall still do so!!

What do you think of the information that RootsChatters have found for me? 

Tilly
Title: Re: Julia Venturney née Cooke..... and Jack the Ripper!
Post by: cris2507 on Wednesday 17 July 13 10:41 BST (UK)
Hi Tilly
This is a fascinating thread:-)
For starters here is the section on Julia in my 2004 book "Jack the Ripper  - A Cast of Thousands"
Hope it's of interest
If you want to contact privately my e-mail is [email protected]

JACK THE RIPPER
 A CAST OF THOUSANDS
 BY CHRISTOPHER SCOTT
 (c) 2004

Julia Venturney

 At the Mary Kelly inquest, Julia Venturney, who was living at 1 Miller's Court, gave testimony that Barnett and Kelly lived happily together at No 13 apart from the occasional incident, such as the breaking of the pane in the window by Kelly when she was drunk. She also testified that there was another man called Joe, apart from Barnett, who was keen on Kelly and abused her because she was living with Barnett. If this is true, the most likely candidate is Joseph Flemming (q.v.), even though Venturney described his as a costermonger. Other sources claimed that Flemming carried on visiting Kelly after she was living with Barnett, and Mrs. Carthy claimed that when Flemming and Kelly were cohabiting she (Mrs. Carthy) thought that Flemming thought enough of Kelly to want to marry her.
 It was claimed in the press that Julia Venturney was this, coupled with her forename, has led to suggestions that she may indeed be the Julia mentioned by Barnett, the prostitute who actually moved in with Kelly and precipitated Barnett's leaving 13 Miller's Court.
 The bare facts about Julia Venturney are as follows. She was born Julia Cook in Kensington in 1841, so at the time of the murders she would have been 47 years old. She was the daughter of a carpenter called Richard Cook, born 1804. The date of her marriage, if indeed she did marry, and any details about her husband, remain unknown. By 1871 she was living in Fulham with her widowed father. She had borne by that date two daughters, Rosina, born 1864 and Charlotte, born 1868.
 The 1871 listing for Julia and her family is as follows:
 2 Little John's Place, Fulham London
 Head:
 Richard Cook aged 67 born Kensington - Carpenter
 Widowed
 Daughter:
 Julia Venturney aged 30 born Kensington - Professional
 Grand Daughters:
 Rosina aged 7 born Fulham
 Charlotte A aged 3 born Fulham
 Lodger:
 Harriett Thorpe aged 18 born Kensington - Servant
 I have been able trace the birth records for both of her daughters. The birth of Rosina Antonet Julia Venteney (sic) was registered at Kensington in March 1863 (Volume 1a Page 163). Her younger daughter was registered as Charlotta (sic) Ann Venturney at Kensington in March 1868 (Volume 1a Page 207). This discrepancy highlights one of the main problems with trying to trace Venturney. In the reports of the Whitechapel murders, her name is given as Venturney, Vanturney, Van Teurney and Van Turney. In the registration of her older daughter, we find yet another variant, Venteney. This probably gave rise to the incorrect press assertion that she was German although, as far as I can trace, her name (or rather that of her supposed husband) was more likely Dutch in origin than German.
 The birth certificate of her daughter, Rosina, gives the name and profession of Julia's mysterious husband. Rosina Venteney was born at 2 John's Place, North End, Fulham, on the 12 February 1864. On her birth cerificate the name of her father is given as Antony Venteney and his profession as a photographic artist. The mother's name is given as "Julia Venteney, formerly Cook."
 The only other record I have been able to find is a listing in the 1881 census for her father, Richard Cook. His details for that year are given as follows:
 Richard Cook aged 78 born London - Carpenter
 A lodger at 3 Bayham Street, London.
 Listed as unmarried.
 Head of household is Eliza Beales aged 66 born Sudbury, Suffolk - Dressmaker.
 In her testimony at Kelly, Julia Venturney gave two other items of information. She described herself as a widow and said that at the time of Kelly's murder she was living at 1 Miller's Court with a man named Harry Owen. Currently neither of these leads has produced any definite information.
 After the 1871 census I have as yet been unable to find any trace of Julia or either of her two daughters.


At this stage I had no info on Venturney's partner but I have since found two mentions of him - he is listed as Antoni Venteney and Antony Venturney and described as a photographer and a photographic artist.
Title: Re: Julia Venturney née Cooke..... and Jack the Ripper!
Post by: cris2507 on Wednesday 17 July 13 10:49 BST (UK)
Here is one mention of the husband in the baptism record for the daughter Rosina. Here he is listed as Antonio

Title: Re: Julia Venturney née Cooke..... and Jack the Ripper!
Post by: Milliepede on Wednesday 17 July 13 11:34 BST (UK)
Found a teeny bit more on daughter Charlotte death 1885.  This time surname is Venbreney.

Register of deaths Whitechapel Union Infirmary. 
Cause of death phthisis. 
Date of death 16 July 1885.

Still trying (and failing) to find her and mother in 1881.  They must have been in the same area I would have thought.

Title: Re: Julia Venturney née Cooke..... and Jack the Ripper!
Post by: tilly56 on Wednesday 17 July 13 12:18 BST (UK)
Hello Chris

Thank you very much for posting that information - I realise now that that is where I read the snippet about some people incorrectly thinking that Julia was German...

You obviously did a lot of research into Jack the Ripper.  I saw a film with Michael Caine as a detective who came to the conclusion that Jack did not act alone, but had a coachman who drove him to the various murders.. I can't remember who he decided the Ripper was, I think maybe a surgeon.

Tilly
Title: Re: Julia Venturney née Cooke..... and Jack the Ripper!
Post by: tilly56 on Wednesday 17 July 13 12:23 BST (UK)
Hi Millie

Thank you!!  you're very good at finding all the strange spellings of Venturney!! I'm hopeless!!

I, too, am still looking for them in the 1881 census.  I am going through all Julia's brother Richard's family to see whether they could be with them, but no luck so far.  Richard married an Irish girl from Clarecastle, Ann Burk - the family story says that her mother, Bridget, was a layer-uter in Clarecastle. One day she was called to "lay out" a body that had already stiffened somewhat, but with the knees bent.  So she put her whole weight on the legs to try and straighten them - at which point, the top of the body sprung forward over her shoulder.... causing Bridget to run out out the house screaming that the body had come back to life!!!! ;D

What a strange family I have!!

Tilly
Title: Re: Julia Venturney née Cooke..... and Jack the Ripper!
Post by: tilly56 on Saturday 20 July 13 14:20 BST (UK)
Just to let everyone know that I wrote the South London Cemetery and had the following reply

I have checked and double checked with my colleague the register for 1914/1915 and there is no entry for the surname Venturney,
so sorry.


I have written back giving the variations on the first and surname and hopefully they will have another look.

tilly
Title: Re: Julia Venturney née Cooke..... and Jack the Ripper!
Post by: Maddie on Saturday 20 July 13 23:54 BST (UK)
Hi Tilly

Just caught up with your fascinating thread, I also have a connection to Jack the Ripper, my ancestor Emma Beament married Frederick G Abberline in 1876 & now I watch everything concerning the Ripper case with avid interest.  ;D

I, like others, have been trying to find your Julia in the 1881 census without any success at all, both mother & daughter are really well hidden. :(

Hope you have more luck with the cemetery this time.

Maddie
Title: Re: Julia Venturney née Cooke..... and Jack the Ripper!
Post by: tilly56 on Sunday 21 July 13 11:55 BST (UK)
Hi Maddie,
That IS interesting!! Have you seen the film with Michael Caine as Frederick Abberline?  Simply called "Jack the Ripper".... I have the DVD (free with the Daily Telegraph a while back!!) and I'm intending to watch it again, just in case there's a mention of Julia! ::)

I wonder WHERE they are in 1881!!

Tilly
Title: Re: Julia Venturney née Cooke..... and Jack the Ripper!
Post by: Maddie on Sunday 21 July 13 12:24 BST (UK)
Hi Tilly

Yes, I have seen the Michael Caine film many moons ago & at the time I had no idea he was portraying an ancestor by marriage of mine. :D I also remember visiting Madam Tussuad's a long time ago & going into the Chamber of Horrors, actually looking at all the exhibits from the Ripper murders, again, I hadn't a clue that I had a connection. :o

I keep going back to that darn census in the hope that somehow Julia will show herself. :-\

Maddie
Title: Re: Julia Venturney née Cooke..... and Jack the Ripper!
Post by: tilly56 on Sunday 21 July 13 13:56 BST (UK)
Hi Maddie,

I know what you mean... I never dreamt I could claim any connection to Jack!!  I wish there were some family stories about Julia that had come down the generations!!

I am trying to be logical about finding her in 1881 :-\ - in 1888 she is at 1 Miller's Court. I had a look at that address in 1881 with FindMyPast, but they were not there.  I shall work my way through the whole street, just in case!! ???

Tilly
Title: Re: Julia Venturney née Cooke..... and Jack the Ripper!
Post by: Maddie on Sunday 21 July 13 14:55 BST (UK)
Hi Tilly

I was on my way down Dorset street in 1881 using the same method until I got interupted. ;D I'll have another go, wonder how long it will take to walk round Whitechapel. ;)

Maddie
Title: Re: Julia Venturney née Cooke..... and Jack the Ripper!
Post by: tilly56 on Sunday 21 July 13 16:09 BST (UK)
Hi Maddie,

I haven't started Dorset Street yet..... I was watching the film!!  NO mention of Julia >:(

As it's free to consult the 1881 census on FindMyPast, I have decided to work my way through all the Charlottes born in and about 1868.... There are 55 pages in 1868 alone, so it might take some time!!

No Charlotte Annes that fit, so I'm having to do just Charlotte.... :'(

We'll find them!!!!!

Tilly
Title: Re: Julia Venturney née Cooke..... and Jack the Ripper!
Post by: jaywit on Sunday 21 July 13 18:03 BST (UK)
I have a feeling Julia may have been in between addresses in 1881 and wasn't recorded.

I wondered if any addresses were missing but not in her part of London.

1881 Census missing pieces

Piece number 693 is missing from the 1881 census: house numbers 17-22 Cunard Street, Camberwell, London.

Part of house number 16 could be missing too if the house contained more children, a boarder or a visitor.
Title: Re: Julia Venturney née Cooke..... and Jack the Ripper!
Post by: tilly56 on Sunday 21 July 13 18:09 BST (UK)
Hi Jaywit
Thank you for your message...

Now that would be just my luck!!

I have looked through all the Charlottes born in 1868, in London, nothing fits. I am going to try 1867 now, still London.

Even if they were between addresses, Julia and Charlotte must have slept somewhere, so would they not have been recorded? Or maybe they were in one of the missing houses in Cunard Street...

Oh dear - but I shall keep trying for a bit longer

Tilly
Title: Re: Julia Venturney née Cooke..... and Jack the Ripper!
Post by: jaywit on Sunday 21 July 13 18:15 BST (UK)
They could have slept anywhere, an out house, cellar just anywhere.

Also I guess in some places people just came and went and whoever was the head just didn't record them.

It's possible they weren't known by name to the head, who just knew someone had slept there  but they were just ignored.

Things were not like they are today and in that area anything was possible
Title: Re: Julia Venturney née Cooke..... and Jack the Ripper!
Post by: jaywit on Sunday 21 July 13 18:25 BST (UK)
Tilly  A quote from the notes in The Blackest Streets

'It was the lack of the 4d fee for a bed for the night in a common lodging house that threw Polly Nicholls and Annie Chapman into the path of Jack The Ripper'
Title: Re: Julia Venturney née Cooke..... and Jack the Ripper!
Post by: jaywit on Sunday 21 July 13 18:38 BST (UK)
Not sure if this link has been posted before.

http://www.casebook.org/dissertations/dst-viperdossier.html
Title: Re: Julia Venturney née Cooke..... and Jack the Ripper!
Post by: Maddie on Sunday 21 July 13 19:36 BST (UK)
Many thanks for the link jaywit, having just read it through, if Julia was there in 1881 I should think there is every chance she could easily have missed the enumerator. :o

The search goes on. :-\

Maddie
Title: Re: Julia Venturney née Cooke..... and Jack the Ripper!
Post by: tilly56 on Sunday 21 July 13 20:24 BST (UK)
Thank you Jaywit, it is an interesting article..... it's true that someone could easily be missed by the census taker in those surroundings!! Your theory of her maybe sleeping rough, or simply not being "known" does sound more than possible.

Thinking aloud : In the 1871 census, Julia's father Richard is still working as a carpenter; he is a widow. Daughter Julia and his two granddaughters are with him. He gives Julia's profession as "Professional".... if this does mean "Prostitute" - would Richard have said this about his daughter ?  As far as I know, he died shortly after the census...  so maybe then Julia was "on her own"; daughter Rosina developed some sort of problem which led to her being admitted into the asylum. So Julia, maybe drifted around for a while before ending up in Miller's Court.. I suppose that Charlotte was not necessarily with her.... although she was in whitechapel when she died.

 I think that what might help is for me to get Charlotte's death certificate - I shall order it tomorrow!!

I have been right through all the Charlottes in 1867 and 1868 and no luck, also no-one under "lottie"..

Well, time to sleep on it now!! ;)

Tilly
Title: Re: Julia Venturney née Cooke..... and Jack the Ripper!
Post by: tilly56 on Monday 22 July 13 12:18 BST (UK)
BINGO!!  I have just had the following reply from the cemetery

:I have found her!
She was aged 73 when she passed away. Her grave is number 6359 square 11 and the date of burial was on the 14th May 1914. If you visit the cemetery I would be glad to show you where the grave is.If you have any information on Lottie, I always find history so interesting, you did mention the Jack the Ripper case


 :)  I shall definitely go an visit the cemetery - I shall work out my timetable this afternoon!!

Now all that is left is to find the census!!

tilly :-*
Title: Re: Julia Venturney née Cooke..... and Jack the Ripper!
Post by: Maddie on Monday 22 July 13 12:42 BST (UK)
That's brilliant news Tilly ;D Are we just looking for her in 1881 or any others apart from 71 & 91.

Maddie
Title: Re: Julia Venturney née Cooke..... and Jack the Ripper!
Post by: tilly56 on Monday 22 July 13 13:14 BST (UK)
Hi Maddie

I don't have here in 1841 - when she would have been with father Richard Dennis Cook(e), mother Charlotte and brother Richard Dennis and maybe another brother, William.  I don't seem to have the 1901 census either, must check that.... ???

Tilly
Title: Re: Julia Venturney née Cooke..... and Jack the Ripper!
Post by: jaywit on Monday 22 July 13 13:20 BST (UK)
Hi Maddie

I don't have here in 1841 - when she would have been with father Richard Dennis Cook(e), mother Charlotte and brother Richard Dennis and maybe another brother, William.  I don't seem to have the 1901 census either, must check that.... ???

Tilly

Tilly She would have been in Kensington in 1841?

Part of Kensington is missing.

http://www.findmypast.co.uk/help-and-advice/knowledge-base/census/known-issues#1
Title: Re: Julia Venturney née Cooke..... and Jack the Ripper!
Post by: tilly56 on Tuesday 23 July 13 10:50 BST (UK)
Hi Jaywit,

Thank you very much for that information.

Yes, she could well have been in Kensington as she was born there.... oh dear!  I beginning to that Jack himself is putting a spoke in my wheel!! >:(

Tilly
Title: Re: Julia Venturney née Cooke..... and Jack the Ripper!
Post by: Milliepede on Tuesday 23 July 13 10:59 BST (UK)
Baptism of William in 1836 gave address Peele St if that helps narrow down the missing parts.
Baptism of Richard Dennis 1832 gave address Charles St so they moved around which doesn't help.

Julia's birth is nearest the census but she wasn't baptised till 1847 (unless the date is wrong) St Pauls Hammersmith.

Many spokes in the wheel :(
Title: Re: Julia Venturney née Cooke..... and Jack the Ripper!
Post by: tilly56 on Wednesday 24 July 13 14:31 BST (UK)
I have now sent off for various birth/death certificates for Julia and daughters..... maybe they will help us!

Tilly
Title: Re: Julia Venturney née Cooke..... and Jack the Ripper!
Post by: Maddie on Wednesday 24 July 13 23:29 BST (UK)
Hi Tilly

Fingers crossed there will be some clue in the cert's you have sent for, your Julia is proving to be as elusive as "Jack" himself. ;)

Maddie
Title: Re: Julia Venturney née Cooke..... and Jack the Ripper!
Post by: tilly56 on Thursday 25 July 13 06:55 BST (UK)
We need Detective Aberline on the case!!

Tilly ;D
Title: Re: Julia Venturney née Cooke..... and Jack the Ripper!
Post by: Maddie on Thursday 25 July 13 15:43 BST (UK)
Unfortunately he never found his man either, did he. :'( :D

I have just come across a book written in 2007 about the Ripper murders so I'm reading it with extra concentration just in case there are any clues within the people named. :-\

Maddie
Title: Re: Julia Venturney née Cooke..... and Jack the Ripper!
Post by: tilly56 on Thursday 25 July 13 16:44 BST (UK)
But maybe he did find his man..... if we believe the Michael Caine film, anyway!! ;D

Or maybe Jack and Julia ran away together....
Title: Re: Julia Venturney née Cooke..... and Jack the Ripper!
Post by: tilly56 on Monday 05 August 13 12:35 BST (UK)
I have just received the four certificats I ordered.  :) Here they are, but in four separate posts as I'm not sure if they will go through all in one go ???

I have only had time for a quick look so far, but Lottie's death certificate is quite interesting.  The fact that she was working as a hawker fits with the 1911 census and it is easy to see how Ventreney became Montreney, so I am pretty sure it is our Julia/Lottie...

I have had a look for daughter Charlotte at 15 Gun Street in 1881.  She is working there at the time of her death in 1885, so I thought it was worth looking.  However I can only find one household in Gun Street on FindMyPast, and as far as I can make out there is only one occupier.

Any comments/thoughts gratefully received!

Tilly
Title: Re: Julia Venturney née Cooke..... and Jack the Ripper!
Post by: tilly56 on Monday 05 August 13 12:37 BST (UK)
Cert. N° 2!
Title: Re: Julia Venturney née Cooke..... and Jack the Ripper!
Post by: tilly56 on Monday 05 August 13 12:40 BST (UK)
N° 3!
Title: Re: Julia Venturney née Cooke..... and Jack the Ripper!
Post by: tilly56 on Monday 05 August 13 12:42 BST (UK)
and Number 4!
Title: Re: Julia Venturney née Cooke..... and Jack the Ripper!
Post by: ShaunJ on Monday 05 August 13 12:50 BST (UK)
Per the 1880 PO Directory, 15 Gun Street in Spitalfields was the premises of John Harris & Co, Boot Manufacturers. Somewhere near the corner of Brushfield Street

The 1881 census for Gun Street is annotated "No 15"
Title: Re: Julia Venturney née Cooke..... and Jack the Ripper!
Post by: ShaunJ on Monday 05 August 13 12:55 BST (UK)
Gun Street
https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=gun+street&oe=UTF-8&ie=UTF-8&ei=SJL_UZzHIoyX0AXG7YEw&ved=0CAoQ_AUoAg

I used to walk all round this area at lunchtimes when I worked in the City
Title: Re: Julia Venturney née Cooke..... and Jack the Ripper!
Post by: tilly56 on Monday 05 August 13 13:16 BST (UK)
Hi Shaun

That was quick, thank you!!

Your Google link takes me to Gun Street in Reading, but I have now found Gun Street in London - I might go there when I'm in London next week.. ... but I still can't find 15 Gun street in the 1881 census.... :-[

Tilly
Title: Re: Julia Venturney née Cooke..... and Jack the Ripper!
Post by: ShaunJ on Monday 05 August 13 13:30 BST (UK)
Quote
Your Google link takes me to Gun Street in Reading

That's very weird. It takes me to Gun Street in Spitalfields ! I haven't altered anything.

 If you find it on Google maps and then go to street view, you can see that there are still some early buildings there.
Title: Re: Julia Venturney née Cooke..... and Jack the Ripper!
Post by: ShaunJ on Monday 05 August 13 13:36 BST (UK)
Quote
but I still can't find 15 Gun street in the 1881 census

Find John Wm Ablett - he's at number 16 in 1881.

Below that it seems to say, on closer examination:

(late No 15) taken in Brushfield Street  now all one premises (No 25 enumerator)

RG11/438/ 76/25
Title: Re: Julia Venturney née Cooke..... and Jack the Ripper!
Post by: tilly56 on Monday 05 August 13 13:39 BST (UK)
Strange - definitely Reading!!.. where 15 Gun Street is a curry house!! 

However, I've had a look at street view (in London!!) - as you say, some nice buildings there.

Tilly
Title: Re: Julia Venturney née Cooke..... and Jack the Ripper!
Post by: tilly56 on Monday 05 August 13 13:45 BST (UK)
Found it, thank you.... but no sign of Charlotte..

Tilly

Title: Re: Julia Venturney née Cooke..... and Jack the Ripper!
Post by: purplekat on Monday 05 August 13 18:10 BST (UK)
This is a very interesting thread, I have just borrowed a book from the library called Abberline by Peter Thurgood it was published this year.  I haven't started it yet, the inside cover describes Abberline as 'a
devoted husband and a dedicated policeman in a time of rampant corruption'.  I hope this is of some interest, I'm sure it will be to Maddie who mentioned a family connection to Abberline  :)
Title: Re: Julia Venturney née Cooke..... and Jack the Ripper!
Post by: Maddie on Monday 05 August 13 20:24 BST (UK)
Hi Tilly

Thank you for sharing those certs with us, I've also had a look at Gun Street but to no avail, I wonder if Julia was living with another bloke & using his name. The book that I have been reading goes into a lot of inquest detail for the first murders but not so much for Mary Ann Kelly & I've been trying to match those mentioned on the census, I shall keep at it in the hope that Julia/Lottie shows up. I had no idea that the area of Whitechapel was so awful & squalid in the 1880's.

Many thanks for the heads up on the book purplecat, that's very interesting & I must look out for it. Chief Inspector Abberline was married to my first cousin 4x removed.

Maddie
Title: Re: Julia Venturney née Cooke..... and Jack the Ripper!
Post by: tilly56 on Wednesday 07 August 13 12:58 BST (UK)
Hi Purplekat and Maddie

Julia and her daughters certainly are keeping me busy!

I too wondered whether Julia could be living somewhere with another man and using his name - as it doesn't seem likely that she married Antonio or Harry Owen... or maybe she went back to being called Julia Cook for a while... ???

I am going to start another thread about Rosina and Charlotte... trying to find info about where they could be buried.

I shall see if I can find the Abberline book when I am in London, I shall also see what else is on offer about Jack!!

Tilly
Title: Re: Julia Venturney née Cooke..... and Jack the Ripper!
Post by: Moonlight By Design on Friday 26 February 16 14:46 GMT (UK)
You know you'd get most of the information you are looking for if you joined Casebook.org and asked in the forum!  Most of the research has already been done for you.  :D   Many of the best JTR books out there are written by it's members.  It's widely know as the foremost place for information on this case.

http://www.casebook.org

Juilia's search on CaseBook : http://www.casebook.org/gsearch/index.html?siteurl=www.casebook.org%2Fintro.html&ref=www.casebook.org%2Fdissertations%2Frip-kit.html&ss=&cx=000723952817035431763%3Afcjumimbw7s&cof=FORID%3A9&q=Julia+Venturney&sa.x=0&sa.y=0


Millers Court Consensus 1881 - 1891

http://forum.casebook.org/archive/index.php/t-1764.html

There is scores of information on Lottie and Juilia, well all that could be found anyway.  Also many threads.

Best of luck in tracing your family
Linda