RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: johnalwynjones on Friday 19 July 13 15:08 BST (UK)
-
Good afternoon
I am researching the old Ellis family of Llanllyfni, Caernarvonshire, North Wales. The only daughter of Robert Ellis (the notable poet Awen Llyfni) was Anne Ellis born in Caernarvonshire in 1833. She appears in the UK census in 1851 then no more. I then saw a newspaper article on the 8th July 1885 in the Welsh-American paper, Y Drych saying that Anne Ellis was living in Glebeland Township, Sydney and she had married a Mr Kempster. I don't have access to the Australian Censuses and any help would be appreciated, or any knowledge of this family.
Thank you.
-
As a born and bred Sydneysider I have no idea where your "GLEBELAND" is?
There is a Glebe in Sydney. But no marriage or death for your Anne.
BUT, there is a "GLEBELAND in ENGLAND" This may be where your Anne went to with Mr Kempster.
maybe you could check the census there.
No Census to use for researching families are available in Australia outside of one in 1841.
Neil
-
Dear Neil
Thanks for your reply and for taking an interest. I suspect it's probably Glebe in Sydney as the article I read was in an American paper written by a Welshman who visited Sydney and NSW in the 1880ies.
I don't think it's the Glebeland in England.
Regards
Alwyn
-
A maybe for a death. Im still trying to find something that will confirm its the Ann your looking for.
NSW death index
13113/1895 KEMPSTER ANN father ROBERT mother UNKNOWN
district MEREWETHER
9275/1891 KEMPSTER THOMAS J father ROBERT J mother CHRISTINA H
district MEREWETHER
NSW birth index
9375/1866 KEMPSTER ROBERT J THOMAS ANNE District HARTLEY
11827/1869 KEMPSTER THOMAS W THOMAS ANN District HARTLEY
6219/1872 KEMPSTER ELIZABETH GERTRUDE THOMAS ANN District BATHURST
-
hi
There is/was also a Glebe in Newcastle, near Merewether. Ann and Robert are buried in Sandgate Cemetery. http://www.sandgatecemetery.org.au/index.php/our-records/undertake-a-search/catalog?search=kempster
Muss
-
I wonder if this could be her arrival ?? ???
Ship Northern Light 1858
Ellis Ann aged 22
Native place Montgomeryshire
She is a housemaid
http://srwww.records.nsw.gov.au/ebook/list.asp?Page=NRS5316/4_4795/Northern%20Light_9%20May%201858/4_479500084.jpg&No=9
-
Thomas Kempster had a sister
NSW death index
11428/1915 KEMPSTER MURIEL A father ROBERT J mother CHRISTINA H district NEWCASTLE
AND she won a consolation prize along with 49 other people in 1913 ;D
Muriel Kempster, ltnilway-st, Merewether
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/28125898?searchTerm=%22MURIEL%20KEMPSTER%22&searchLimits=exactPhrase=MURIEL+KEMPSTER+
Muriel is also on the burial list that muss posted on #4.
Kempster, Muriel A E
Buried on: 28/07/1915
-
Hi Johnalwynjones
Australian death certificates have good information about the person's parents, time in Australia, spouse, date of marriage, children, birthplace - obviously dependent on the knowledge of the informant. In this case the informant knows the name of Ann KEMPSTER's father, but not her mother.
BMDs here are State-based. NSW BMDs can be found here
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/bdm_fh.html
and if you scroll to the bottom of the page you will see the names of 3 accredited transcription agents, all of whom give good service. A transcription should cost about $AU20 and will be quicker (and cheaper) than ordering the actual certificate.
The certificate should give you enough to find whether this is the person you are looking for.
Information you should find:
Death
Full name, sex and age, date and place of death, place of residence, usual occupation and marital status at death
Place of marriage, age when married, full name of spouse
Children's name and ages
Parent's names and mother's maiden name
Cause of death and duration of last illness
Burial or cremation date and place
Judith
-
http://srwww.records.nsw.gov.au/indexes/searchform.aspx?id=15
I am speculating that this is indexing your Annie’s Probate Packet..
Duty paid 21 August 1915 for Deceased Estate for an Annie KEMPSTER of Merewether (Newcastle NSW).
The DD on the index has an obvious typo as it reads 23/10/1995. (I suspect it would be 1895, matching up with the NSW BDM #13113 of 1895 and Muss’s link to Sandgate Cemetery with burial 24/10/1895 for Ann KEMPSTER)
:) :) ]Hopefully there’s RChatters following this thread who can get to the Kingswood NSW address of the NSW SRO and look up the Probate Packet for you. :)
Cheers, JM
-
Im beginning to wonder if Ann actually married Thomas Kempster.
I cant find a marriage ::)
-
Im beginning to wonder if Ann actually married Thomas Kempster.
I cant find a marriage ::)
Yes, well, errr ..... there's flaws in the online index for NSW BDMs.... :-[ :-[ and of course, it was not until the 1880s that NSW BDM was actually in receipt of regular quarterly returns in respect of marriages from 1856 ....
And even then, the summaries were not providing ALL the usual details found on NSW parish registers....
And, from the 1880s, there were issues for the Sydney based BDM clerks with the long hand script of the clerics on those summary returns ....
And the returns were sent by ordinary mail from the rural areas to Sydney HQ .... and the Reg General's office handled far more than just BDM quarterly returns ....
And it is always a wonder to me that ANY 19thC bdm event that occurred outside of metro Sydney actually ever managed to get itself indexed :) .....
I will pull thinking cap down harder, to think of what mis mash could occur to the surnames KEMPSTER and ELLIS when any transcriber in the 1930s may have misread for a marriage sometime in second half of 19thC in NSW.... :) (Adding, 1930s was when the volunteers prepared an index that is the basis of the current online index).
Of course, NSW BDM birth certs (not the baptismal "V" records, but the civil ones post 1855), should include the parents origins, and date and place of marriage.
So, an official transcription for the birth cert for Elizabeth Gertrude KEMPSTER in 1872, registered Bathurst district should give info as to when/where Thomas and Ann married, and names/ages of Elizabeth's older siblings :). BUT on other hand the Probate packet may well include various BDM certificates, and witness statements etc, as there's ten years between when Ann died and when Probate was granted... so likely some issues were sorted out before the estate was presented to the NSW Supreme Court.
Cheers, JM
-
Thank you for that JM :) You explain things well, where its easy to understand [for the likes of me ;D]
-
Hi
Death and funeral notices will be in the Newcastle Morning Herald ( not on the net) contact Newcastle Library.
Just started to snow here ( very nice)
Muss
-
[Just started to snow here ( very nice)
Hi Muss where is "here" I am in Sydney. lovely sunny day , however the breeze is a bit cool
Cass
-
Hi
Threadbo ( with the family having a short break}
Muss
-
Thank you all, excellent information, particularly the date of arrival. I'll scour the Caernarfonshire newspapers as deaths of locals abroad were usually reported, there might be a short note as her father was so well respected. Strange that her mother was not mentioned (Catherine William) and the lack of a marriage as they were a devoutly religious Anglican family. But then equally odd that she should emigrate alone. One brother went to the USA but all 7 of the others stayed in Wales.
Many thanks
Alwyn
-
Thanks again Muss, excellent info as before.
Alwyn
-
Marriage:
Thomas KEMPSTER single, 21yrs m. Ann ELLIS single, 28yrs - 07 Feb 1863 St Mary, Bury, Lancashire.
Groom's father: James
Bride's father: Robert
http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk/marriages.php
http://www.freebmd.org.uk/search
-
OH!! Merlin what a great find :)
So that would mean the passenger list i found earlier is wrong.
-
hi
T Kempster involved in a mine rescue http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/108894781?searchTerm=kempster glebe&searchLimits=
Muss
-
Photos:
Thomas & son Robert James KEMPSTER - Freemasons
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0veq/
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0ver/
-
Hi,
A possibility
Thomas Kempster 21 and Ann Kempster 28, both arrived on the Golden Dream into Brisbane from Queenstown England on 28th May 1863.
Gerry
-
Further to my reply #17:
Marriage Register 1863, Page 174; Entry 347
7 Feb 1863 St Mary the Virgin, Bury, Lancashire
Thomas KEMPSTER - 21, Self Acting Minder, Bachelor, Limefield
Ann ELLIS - 28, Spinster, Newchurch
Groom's Father: James Kempster, Overlooker
Bride's Father: Robert Ellis, Builder
Witnesses: John Horrocks; S. Bailey
Married by: Frederick Wilson; Curate
-
Thomas Kempster 21 and Ann Kempster 28, both arrived on the Golden Dream into Brisbane from Queenstown England on 28th May 1863.
Certainly matches with the marriage details :)
Copy of original passenger list:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0vet/
-
The 'Golden Dream' left Queenstown February 19th 1863, less than 2 weeks after the marriage.
3rd December 1864 there were unlclaimed UK letters for Thomas Kempster at Calliope. This was most probably the Calliope Gold Field ssw of Gladstone.
Gerry
-
Merewether Council
Merewether was proclaimed as a Municipality in the NSW Government Gazette, 20 August 1885.The first election of councillors took place in 1885. Those elected were: Thomas Kempster, Jenkin Williams, Andrew Curry, Thomas Price, George Hall, William Armstrong, Joseph Orr, Robert Jury and George Brown. The first Mayor elected in the Municipality was Thomas Kempster. The first Council meeting took place in the Mechanic's Institute, Burwood on November 3 1885.
-
1903 NSW Electoral Roll:
KEMPSTER Thomas Wilton Street, Merewether - Coal Miner (Anne's husband)
KEMPSTER Thomas William Wilton Street, Merewether - Blacksmith (son)
KEMPSTER Eliza Jane Wilton Street, Merewether - Domestic Duties (dau-in-law)
HAMMERTON Elizabeth Gertrude Wilton Street, Merewether - Domestic Duties (daughter)
HAMMERTON George Addison Wilton Street, Merewether - Blacksmith (son-in-law)
KEMPSTER Robert James Railway Street, Merewether - Carpenter (son)
KEMPSTER Christiana Helen Railway Street, Merewether - Domestic Duties (dau-in-law)
-
Deaths:
KEMPSTER Ann d. 23 Oct 1895 MEREWETHER #13113
Father: Robert, Mother: Unknown
KEMPSTER Thomas d. 18 Mar 1924 MEREWETHER #2801
Father: Thomas (this is incorrect as from his birth & marriage details it's James), Mother: Unknown
-
Children to Thomas & Anne:
KEMPSTER Robert James b. 1866 HARTLEY #9375
married 1890 KINLOCH Christina Helen
HAMILTON #4032
KEMPSTER Thomas William b. 1869 HARTLEY #11827
married 1897 CLEAVES Eliza Jane
MEREWETHER #1371
KEMPSTER Elizabeth Gertrude b. 1872 BATHURST #6219
married 1895 HAMMERTON George Addison
MEREWETHER #3417
www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/cgi-bin/Index/IndexingOrder.cgi/search
-
Birth for Thomas:
KEMPSTER Thomas
Born: 7 Dec 1841
Place: North Bury, Lancashire
Baptised: 27 Mar 1842
Parish: St Mary, St Denys and St George, Manchester
Father's Name: James KEMPSTER
Mother's Name: Mary Ann FOSTER
-
His parents marriage:
Marriages register 1840, Page 75, Entry 149
1 Nov 1840 St Mary the Virgin, Prestwich, Lancashire
James KEMPSTER - full age, Spinner, Bachelor, Oldham below Town
Mary Ann FOSTER - full age, Spinster, Oldham below Town
Bride's Father: John Foster, Carder
Witnesses: Sarah Ann Ferns; Joseph Bowker
Married by Banns: G. B. Sandford; Curate
-
Thank you for that JM :) You explain things well, where its easy to understand [for the likes of me ;D]
But I did not find the marriage, as afterall, Merlin found it in England.... ;D so, sometimes the reason a marriage is not indexed at NSW BDM is simply because it was elsewhere...
Cheers, JM
-
Again. thank you all, there's a lot of info I must digest over the next few days. Muss's suggestion of Sandgate seems probable for 1895, I'll follow up that newspaper hint. She did not arrive on the Northern Light in 1858 as that Anne Ellis was from Montgomeryshire not Caernarfon.
I am still trying to get my head around Merlin's, Bury, Lancashire marriage in 1863, it's a good match. Pity I can't find her on the 61 census here in the UK. I just wonder why she went to Lancashire as Wales was "booming in the 1860 with the home grown slate trade with people flooding in even to North Wales. Anne's father was a church sexton & parish clerk, there is significant knowledge about the poet, Awen Llyfni (Robert Ellis), I doubt she would record that her father was a builder.
judb's suggestion, I will follow up, many thanks for that, probably worth 20 Aus dollars.
Aussie1947's ship the Golden Dream, again possible apart from the very slight discrepancy in her age. (born 1833) but fits nicely with that Lancashire marriage.
Thanks all, fantastic Oz response as before. Sorry about the cricket!!
Alwyn
-
I wonder ... could groom be Self Acting Winder and his dad an Overlocker... Bride's dad as a builder makes sense to me ... several of my LANCS forebears were lay Church officials and so also had commercial interests to upkeep their families.
Cheers JM
Further to my reply #17:
Marriage Register 1863, Page 174; Entry 347
7 Feb 1863 St Mary the Virgin, Bury, Lancashire
Thomas KEMPSTER - 21, Self Acting Minder, Bachelor, Limefield
Ann ELLIS - 28, Spinster, Newchurch
Groom's Father: James Kempster, Overlooker
Bride's Father: Robert Ellis, Builder
Witnesses: John Horrocks; S. Bailey
Married by: Frederick Wilson; Curate
-
Thanks majm
Quite possible a builder as a "jack of all trades" but I would have thought that "Parish Clerk" would have more kudos, but I agree as the parish clerk's job was a grave digger also, it may not have had so much significance then. The photo of the family, excluding Anne from about 1865 showed that they were quite "well to do."
I don't know, one must keep an open mind.
Regards
Alwyn
-
A Builder is not a jack of all trades. Surely a Builder could be the 19thC equivalent of the Property Developer ...... funding the growth of suburbs through the building of rows and rows of terraces ..... near to the newly built factories ...
Cheers JM
-
1861 census shows the following family:
72 How Lane (?)
Walmersley Rd, BURY
James Kempster 42, overlocker, b Manchester
Betty Kempster 50, b Oldham
John Kempster 17, Cotton Mule Winder, b Bury
Thomas Kempster 19, Cotton Mule Winder, b Bury - at least I'm fairly sure that's it
Elizabeth Kempster 11, scholar
So it would seem that this may be Thomas and his father with occupations that fit the marriage entry.
There is another possible for Ann(e) ELLIS in the 1861 census, living in West Derby Lancashire, with occupation 'house servant' and in the right age group but unfortunately the birth place is given merely as 'Wales' with no clues as to which county. West Derby is a fair way from Bury though so this seems a long shot.
Another Ann ELLIS, 23, housemaid, b "N Wales" is living in Burnley in 1861 which is a bit closer to Bury but not the correct age although I doubt that a housemaid's age is always correct in census documents.
Is this the correct Robert ELLIS in 1861 - perhaps stone mason is not so far from builder? :-\
Llanllyfi
Robert Ellis 55, parish clerk, & stone mason
Cathrine Ellis 51
William Ellis 24, slate quarrier
John Ellis 21, slate quarrier
Richard Ellis 17, slate quarrier
Robert Ellis 15, slate quarrier
Ellis Ellis 14, tailor ap
Lewis Ellis 12
All born Llanllyfini, except Catherine.
Where is Ann in 1851? - I see the parents and brothers but not her.
Judith
-
Yes that's the Penbryn Ffynon family at Llanllyfni. The stone mason comes from his work as a gravedigger which are fine examples of his craft; it's estimated that in the Llanllyfni area he carved over a thousand gravestone & his own gravestone documents that he buried 2556 people!!! There is an excellent biography of his life in Y Genedl Gymreig but another source is Welsh Bigraphy Online.
ELLIS , ROBERT ( Llyfnwy ; 1805 - 1872 ), parish clerk (1829-72) and poet ; [chr. at Llanllyfni church , 20 Oct. 1805 ] son of Ellis and Ann Dafydd , Penbryn Bach , Llanllyfni, Caerns. He m. Catherine Williams of Llandwrog in 1830 and they had seven children. As a poet , he was known by the name Llyfnwy . In 1852 he published Lloffion Awen Llyfnwy , a collection of his verse, but disarmed criticism by admitting in his introduction that he did not aspire to the first rank as he never had a full term's education in his life. He wrote a great many carols , especially for the annual watch-night service at the parish church, and was one of the last to use the alliterative form for this type of verse. A selection of his carols was published after his death under the title Carolau Awen Llyfnwy . He could turn out an excellent englyn, and many of these are to be seen on the tombstones in Llanllyfni and the neighbourhood. His interests were not confined to poetry, for he was also a musician ; he conducted the instrumentalists in Llanllyfni church . He d. 14 April 1872 .
Bibliography:
◾ W. R. Ambrose , Hynafiaethau, cofiannau, a hanes presennol Nant Nantlle y traethawd buddugol yn Eisteddfod Gadeiriol Pen-y-groes, Llun y Pasg, 1871 , 1872 , 1872 , 84-5;
◾Enwogion Sir Gaernarfon , 1922 , 65-6;
◾Y Llenor , ix, 47-55;
◾ T. Parry , Hanes Llenyddiaeth Gymraeg , 1944 , 1944 , 234;
◾[bishops' transcripts, N.L.W.].
Author:
Canon Gwynfryn Richards, M.A., Conway / Llandudno
Interesting the 2 Anne Ellis's in Lancashire.l I think I'll need some other titbits of information from other sources eg the Welsh newspapers.
Again many thanks
Alwyn
-
HI
ok back at home now.
The Robert Kempster who died in 1891 was a baby
Thomas Kempster husband of Anne died 18/03/1924 age 83 buried with the Ann age 60 who died in 1895
Newcastle Morning Herald 19 Mar 1924
Kempster Thomas funeral to move from the residence of his son-in-law Mr G A Hammerton, Hickson st Merewether. father and Father-in law of Mr and Mrs R.J Kempster, Mr and Mrs Thomas H. Kempster and Mr and Mrs G. A. Hammerton
Muss
-
HI
In Memoriam 18/03/1925 NMH
Kempster Thomas passed away in his 83rd year. inserted by his daughter and Son-in-law and grandchildren Mildred and George.
I had the notices in my laundry ( took some time to find)
Muss
-
Thanks Muss!
-
1903 NSW Electoral Roll:
KEMPSTER Thomas Wilton Street, Merewether - Coal Miner (Anne's husband)
KEMPSTER Thomas William Wilton Street, Merewether - Blacksmith (son)
KEMPSTER Eliza Jane Wilton Street, Merewether - Domestic Duties (dau-in-law)
HAMMERTON Elizabeth Gertrude Wilton Street, Merewether - Domestic Duties (daughter)
HAMMERTON George Addison Wilton Street, Merewether - Blacksmith (son-in-law)
KEMPSTER Robert James Railway Street, Merewether - Carpenter (son)
KEMPSTER Christiana Helen Railway Street, Merewether - Domestic Duties (dau-in-law)
Hi John. I know this is a long time after the event but I just came across your post. My family have lived in Wilton St for nigh on 100 years. In Newcastle The Glebe was situated within Merewether and was referred to as Glebeland in early documents. Wilton St & Railway St are within The Glebe. Kempsters were a prominent family in the area as noted. When I was growing I was mates with John Ellis and his family still lived in Merewether West. Appreciate this doesn't give stats but it provides background that may help.
-
Hi CIDavid,
Welcome to rootschat :)
I'm sure johnalwynjones will be delighted with any clues ... :)
A bit of background on Thomas KEMPSTER on his 82nd birthday says he was a native of Lancashire
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article163198890
There is a probate file for him I see from trove http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article137639551 It is in the gap years for the online indexes. I can photograph this next time I am there if anyone wishes.
regards,
Ros
-
This thread caught my eye for the surname Kempster, although mine come from Buckinghamshire. I was following Thomas and James through the records, when I noticed James remarried as a widower in 1881, to another Betty, Betty Buckley, on 17th August.
-
Hi alwyn and everyone else.
I have been looking for info on Ann Ellis for the last few years but only just stumbled on this site. Ironic. I have been researching from the other end as my hubby is a descendent of the middle child of Thomas and Anne Kempster - Thomas William. I have found most of the Australian side of this story, - coming into Queensland where Anne owned land and Thomas worked in the pOstal Service. Then they went to Lithgow ( Bowenfells) NSW ( lost letter) so the 2 boys births were registered at Hartley NSW. Then they moved in 1872 to Hill End NSW for the gold. He wasn't registered as having a lease so he must have worked for a big mine ( no records). Their daughter was born in 1872 ( Elizabeth Gertrude) but registered in Bathurst NSW 75km away. In 1875 they moved to Newcastle/ Glebeland/ Merewether where Thomas became Mayor. Lots of newspaper articles on Trove. The rest is as others have said - is history.
Alwyn I would be really interested in some of the English side of Ann Ellis as she doesn't appear much and died in 1895. Thanks Lily
-
Hi everyone.
In 1949 Alma Joan Ellis & James Benjamin Ellis still lived in Wilton Street at No 9.
In 1949 George Addison Hammerton & Muriel (Lara?) Hammerton still lived in Wilton St at No 24.
Quote: "Kempster Thomas funeral to move from the residence of his son-in-law Mr G A Hammerton, Hickson st Merewether. father and Father-in law of Mr and Mrs R.J Kempster, Mr and Mrs Thomas H. Kempster and Mr and Mrs G. A. Hammerton"
Hickson St formed the eastern boundary of The Glebe. It was later absorbed into Llewelyn St. It intersected with Wilton St. The current Hickson St in Merewether is not the street referred to in this funeral notice.
A bit more on the Glebe Kempsters. Kempster Road is named after the Mayor of Merewether, Thomas Kempster. I lived in a share house at 1 Kempster Road when I was at University.
Happy happy
David P
-
I've been doing a little on the Kempsters as well. I started with Thomas William Kempster, as me married my Great Grandmother's cousin Eliza Jane Cleaves, and whose father Thomas Kempster was also an interesting character with a similar story to my own relatives. He had his children in Lithgow/Hartley the same years my relatives had their children.
He lived in Hill End the same years that my same relatives lived there too. Mine then moved to to Merewether, to work as the Post Master. They were also both Freemasons and seems as if they all went to the same Methodist Church, as trove articles has the Kempster families mixing with the Cleaves families there.
Not much more too add. Hope I'd get a hold of Lagg, as her husband would be a relative of mine :)