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Research in Other Countries => Europe => Topic started by: TheBanana on Saturday 27 July 13 12:05 BST (UK)
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Jean Frans Mees is my great-grandfather.
His father was Isdor/Isidor Mees.
I know that those forenames might have just been short version or the way a reigstrar would have spelt it. Any alternatives or full variations of those names?
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I don't think they are short for anything! ;D
Jean is a very popular name in the French-speaking world.
Frans is popular in the Dutch-speaking world.
See http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Flemish_given_names
Mees is, I think, a Flemish/Dutch surname.
I heard a story that, until relatively recently, babies in Belgium could only have a name on a special list?
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Isdor/Isidor could be a variation for Isadore.
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Related thread http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,655126.msg5013242.html#msg5013242
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The Belgian name is Isidoor.
A Masculine name.
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The Belgian name is Isidoor.
A Masculine name.
I always thought that Isadore was a masculine name, and that Isadora was the feminine. Different spelling 'cos Belgian isn't English, of course.
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As Kgarrad says, Jean and Frans were common names in Belgium. But a
French and Flemish version together is unusual. Depending on the period,
place and/or the registrar it would normally be :
Jean François / Joannes Franciscus / Jan Frans
Isidor is just Isidor / Isidoor / Isidore / Isidorus etc.
Leen
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Wow a lot of great information and variations. Thanks. I will get to work in that area.
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Are you sure your Jean Frans Mees is born around 1885 ?
This Joannes Franciscus Mees was born on 14/02/1876 at 08:00 o'clock in his parents house :
Noeveren n° 184 in Boom, Antwerp province. (Noeveren is a street name)
father : Isidorus Mees, 26 years old, born in Puurs (province Antwerp), brickmakers laborer
mother : Maria Amelia Fleurackers, 27 years old, born in Boom, housewife
witnesses : Joannes Franciscus Fleurackers, 31 years old, brickmakers laborer
Isidorus Greveraerts, 29 years old, tailor
The cert (n° 74) is on FamilySearch : http://www.rootschat.com/links/0vhx/
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That sounds interesting but I don't know the actual birth date. The records calculate it would have been about 1882-1888. His wife was already over 10 years older.
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So the it must be the correct record for Jean Mees but still wondering why he is 10 years older than originally "assumed" - (yes I know I mustn't assume so no need to quote that). So do I use this Joannus Franciscus Mees record for Jean?
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It may be the right cert, but it's still uncertain. He may have lied about his age.
One of his brothers, named Frank, was born in 1885 (Boom 08/12/1885, cert n° 516 / image 869 on FamilySearch)
Their father died in Boom 08/12/1900, cert n° 325 (image 751 FamilySearch), one of the declarants of his death
was his son Joannes Franciscus Mees (24 years old). Their address was then : Noeveren n° 121 at Boom.
The best thing you can do is send a email to the population service of Boom in which you mentioned that you are a direct descendant of Jean Frans Mees, son of Isidorus Mees and asks whether it is possible to obtain a copy from the population register (bevolkingsregister) of Joannes Franciscus Mees, with the latest known address and date (Noeveren n° 121, Boom, year 1900)
email population service Boom : bevolking(AT)boom.be
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OK. So, may I need to take a chance on this one? Or, do you think their needs to be more clarification.
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It's only a question, so I would send them an email. It's a change to find out whether it's the right Mees or not. One of the things that (normally) are listed in the populationregisters is to where someone has moved.
Leen
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OK. Thanks for all the help. I have emailed them. :D
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I haven't a reply from them yet and yes I know that it may take some time.
But I located the address on Google Maps and it is moving to think that he MAY have lived in this house if it is the right ancestor - https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=boom+antwerp+belgium&bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&bvm=bv.49967636,d.ZWU,pv.xjs.s.en_US.jOYpRJj4zMA.O&biw=1325&bih=190&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&sa=N&tab=wl.
But thinking about the record, it is most likely the related record to Jean Mees which I highly thank you for if it is the correct one. How did you search it on FamilySeach.org ? I am searching the names you transcribed but can't find a record show up
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Let's hope that it's one of these possibilities : Jean Frank used the birth date from his brother Frank, or Frank used Jean Frank's name.
I found an Isidorus Mees, brick maker, on the online State Archives of Belgium http://www.rootschat.com/links/0vj4/
and then searched the "tienjarige tafels" of Boom on FamilySearch (the certs are not transcribed yet, so you must search the index) http://www.rootschat.com/links/0vj6/
Geboorten = births
Huwelijken = marriages
Overlijden = deaths
Huwelijksbijlagen = marriage appendices
Huwelijksafkondigingen = banns
Tienjarige tafels = ten-years index, such as the BMD's
groetjes
Leen
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OK. I highly appreciate the help and will let you know of any news or questions.
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I still haven't a reply yet, maybe I should have translated it in Belgium?
But otherwise, for now until I can clarify it 100%, do you think I should go along with the record(s) you have shared as it is most likely the correct one?
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No that's ok, it would surprise me if they did not understand english.
Maybe you can email the chairman - administrator of this website, he has put a lot online about Boom. Altough it is a bit confusing because there are several links to this site, older versions of it, I think.
http://www.tenboome.webruimtehosting.net/IIZludr/node/4 (Historical Study Group Ten Boome) click on "Bestuur" (top left) it's the first email address
Noeveren was a hamlet of Boom, one of the most important industries there were brick factories. To view pictures of Noeveren, click on "Focus op Noeveren" and then on the photo
http://www.tenboome.webruimtehosting.net/tenboome/
I have searched on Geneanet today and found Isidorus Mees on it. (another email option ?)
http://en.geneanet.org/search/?name=Mees&place=Boom&ressource=arbre click on the second tree
It's still possible that it's the wrong Mees, it would be a shame for all the work you put into it when it is not your Jean frank. I would wait until you are sure.
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Wow, thanks for the information and I will email the chairman.
You know a lot about Belgium!
Thanks for the links to those pictures too.
For the 3rd link, I was unable to notice an Isidorus in the list?
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When you click on the second 'Tree icon" in the column "Type", you will get the Mees-page of this family tree. At n° 4 you find Isidorus (or Isidoor, ... ) As I understand is Maria Amelia Fleurackers (Isidoor's wife) a distant niece of the tree-owner's wife. You can send the owner a message via Geneanet but you need to register (Free) or email him.
Groetjes
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Thanks for the help. I will contact him.
I also mentioned Jean might have been from "Boom" to my Grampy and he said he recognises that name but always thought it was "Boon", that probably word-of-mouth and how he heard it. So we may be on the right track and I thank you heavily for it.
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I haven't a reply from any at this time so I am unsure what step I should take next...
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It's holiday season, perhaps that's the reason. However, it's only a week, you still can receive a reply.
I sent an email this morning to another address of the civil registry of Boom, we'll see.
So we have a Jean Frans Mees, an Isidor Mees, a brick maker, and now thanks to your Grampy, we have Boom (Boom sounds as home, with a B instead of the H of course, or as bone, ....). It should be him, but still a confirmation from the civil registry would be great.
groetjes
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Yes true. Ok Thanks for all your help on this topic. It has been great!
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I am also wondering, how would I find a travel record for Joannes (Jean). I "found" a supposed record of him going to South Africa. But the dates do not add up so would I be able to find a record of him landing in the UK?
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There are no Passenger records for journeys to and from Europe and the UK! ;D
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Did you carry out a search? It must be weird how a record can't be found unless he travelled unlawfully...
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Please read what I wrote! ;D
There are NO Passenger Records for travel between Europe and the United Kingdom.
You can't search them - because there aren't any! ;D
Passenger Records only exists for long-haul sailings - to and from the USA, Canada, Australia, South Africa, etc.
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OK
Why aren't their any? That is a bit dopey don't you think but I do assume that I need to consider the the British Empire but still...?
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Considering that boats have been sailing into Britain since the Phoenicians traded in Cornwall, and noting that almost any kind of ship or boat can sail across from France, Belgium, The Netherlands, Germany, Denmark, Norway, etc - how could this be policed?
And of what use would these records be?
The existing Passenger Records were never intended for Family History research! ;D
So, the answer is - no, I don't think it's dopey.
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Why aren't their any? That is a bit dopey don't you think
You need to take into account that record keeping wasn't nearly so important then as it is now, when we all expect detailed records of everything to be instantly available.
Many tens of thousands of people - probably more - must have travelled by boat across the Channel in both directions without any record at all of their journeys being kept.
And even if there were records, there's no reason why we should expect them all to be available and searchable on the internet.
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OK Thanks Jen B. That is the answer I was looking for.
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@Leen
I have found a 1911 census of a "FRANS MEES" who was born in Antwerp but was a boarder in London. Do you know what this could mean or is it something not to pay attention too?
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?new=1&gsfn=frans&gsln=mees&rank=1&gss=angs-c&pcat=1911UKI&h=316187&db=1911England&indiv=1
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Wrong birth year I would think (when it is the correct date). 'Dont know whether "Antwerp" refers to the province or the city, but I cheked the online birth records Antwerp-city / years 1867 to 1886. There are a lot of Mees-childeren in it, none of them with a father named Isidoor.
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OK. Just checking with you to make sure.
Thanks.
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I also came to wonder recently, Joannes had a brother named Frans born 1885 in Belgium.
The marriage displays Jean FRANS Mees and a word of mouth birth year as 1885 - is it possible that Joannes can be the one as well as Frans possibly being the one?
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It is a possibility, but Frans Mees married in Boom on 12/01/1907, cert n° 5, with Coesemans Maria Sofia. One of the witnesses at the wedding was his brother Jan Frans. Their first child was born in 1908 in Boom. There is no marriage (or death) for Jan Frans in Boom. (Certs and index are online up to 1910). Still searching but no luck so far.
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OK so I suppose that does rule it out then. Thanks! I can't understand any of the images so do you know the name of the child they had and his birthdate?
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Hi Dan ! I’ve not had the time to read all your replies so you’ll have to excuse me if I repeat what’s already been said ! Also, as I see from the last page it has progressed somewhat !
I’ve been living in the French Wallonia south for over 40 years and my wife’s father was called Isidore..., so yours looks like it’s probably Flemish. But I suppose you must obviously have an address for Jean..., north, or south.
Remark: I’ve been doing my British tree for a few years now and with it becoming less and less dynamic, I ‘pushed’ my wife to ‘encourage’ me to do hers. Lol ! I won !
I’ve only been on it for a few weeks now and it’s “as easy as pie”!
Because I had her 1xG ID card, the street number on this card didn’t coincide with our/his house. (50 instead of 3) As such, because Google is getting worse by the minute, I went to our local Town Hall to ask for a research rendezvous in order to see if they had an old map. No rendezvous was needed !
On my arrival and explaining the situation, the secretary went directly to the attic and brought down a book about one meter high by 50cms wide filled with old maps. (beautiful..., abt 1880) As I looked at the open book with its orange and dimpled pages fully decorated; I bit my lip that I hadn’t taken my digital camera.
As such, I made some excuse and said, “please wait 5 minutes and I’ll be back in a gif.” When I got back, she had printed 20 pages from her computer with all my mother-in-law’s family, with some going back to 1720 and others even further, but without dates.
Being a Scotsman, I doubly appreciated the gesture as it was free ! Lol !
Quite a difference from the long hard slog using census reports !
Also..., as we live in such a small country (10 million) with a north/south divide 10 times worse than any Hadrian’s Wall could ever produce, “everybody knows everybody.” To such an extent that the French word “cretinism” tinkles as you look at the family names and relationships.
Meaning, that when someone in Belgium publishes their family tree on the Internet and you know from which half you belong, you’re just about certain to stumble over a relation.
Example:
http://users.skynet.be/fa297341/gen/gen.htm (63000 people)
http://home.euphonynet.be/lambermont-joris/ancetres/ancetres.htm (80000 people)
As such, if you want to spend a few days in Belgium eating the best chocolate and drinking the best beer in the world..., just give ‘your’ Town Council a ring and ask for advice. (not the weekends)
99% of Flemish speak English with at least 5 different accents when asked..., on the other hand, the Walloons are a bit like the British; not often bi-lingual ! Lol !
..., Iain.
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According to brilliant research by "leen" who started it off by finding a birth record,
Jean was from Noevereen 184 in Boom, Antwerp.
And I thank you for sharing some information about your research.
It is great to hear it!
Thanks for the advice!
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The certs are on the site of the Belgian State Archives, you need to register to view the images
http://search.arch.be/nl/zoeken-naar-archieven/zoekresultaat/inventaris/rabscan/eadid/BE-A0511_112303_110914_DUT/inventarisnr/I2009D9307/level/file/scan-index/11/foto/511_9997_997_11005_007_0_0011
Mees Frans - Coesemans Maria Sofia x 12/01/1907, cert n° 5 (image 10)
Boom 12/01/1907 at 10:00 AM
Mees Frans, born 08/12/1885 Boom, ship maker, residing at Boom, son of Mees Isidoor, deceased and from Fleurackers Maria Amelia, residing at Boom, present and consenting
Coesemans Maria Sofia, born 07/11/1887 Boom, laborer, residing at Boom, daughter of Coesemans Willem, brick maker, residing at Boom, present and consenting and from De Decker Alida, deceased
witnesses :
Mees Willem, 28 years, laborer, brother of the groom
Mees Jan, 30 jaar, laborer, brother of the groom
Coesemans Jan, 23 years, laborer, brother of the bride
Van Dyck Pieter, 21 years, laborer, non relative
The witnesses all residing in Boom
http://search.arch.be/nl/zoeken-naar-archieven/zoekresultaat/inventaris/rabscan/eadid/BE-A0511_112303_110914_DUT/inventarisnr/I2009D9303/level/file/scan-index/21/foto/511_9997_997_11005_003_0_0020
Mees Jan Frans ° 10/07/1908, cert n° 310 (image 155)
born 10/07/1908 (dd/mm/yy), 04:00 AM, at his parents home, Noeveren n° 128 at Boom
parents : Mees Frans, 22 years, ship maker and Maria Sofia Coesemans, 20 years, both born at Boom
witnesses : De Pauw Leopold, 27 years, factory laborer and Van den Eede Clementina, 34 years, midwife
cretinism Lain ?
Leen from Belgium
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cretinism Lain ?
Leen from Belgium
Hi Leen ! I was always told that “Crétin” was the name of an isolated village in the French mountains somewhere. So isolated that marriages between cousins and sometimes siblings were a common occurrence. (with the centuries providing the obvious results)
But I’m darned if I can find it on the map !
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cretinism
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Already thought you meant that, such as in Scotland I suppose ;)
Dan has already sent a mail to the Town Hall. The difference is that you had the proof of your wife’s direct kinship, and even better, the ID card with the national identification number of her 2xG. That’s the frustrating thing, knowing that they can see with a simple click whether Jan is the right person.
Still, I’m Belgian and have brought many visits to various town halls, always met friendly, helpful staff, but it never resulting in 20 pages. You’re a lucky guy Lain or is it Scottish charme ?
Good luck with your further research
Leen
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Thank you for the further information!
I really appreciate it.
And, do ALL the names start with the surname as I can get confused sometimes.
My grampy quite tanned and his mother was very tanned as she was the daughter of Joannes. So I am wondering why are some Belgians tanned to the point they look mixed race and why are the majority Caucasian?
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Still, I’m Belgian and have brought many visits to various town halls, always met friendly, helpful staff, but it never resulting in 20 pages. You’re a lucky guy Lain or is it Scottish charme ?
Good luck with your further research
Leen
Lol !
My mother-in-law died about six months ago and at the time, she was the oldest person in the village at 95 years of age..., and well known to Willy Borsus. (the Town Mayor)
http://www.lalibre.be/actu/belgique/willy-borsus-se-verrait-bien-ministre-president-wallon-ou-president-du-mr-522951b335702bc05f0bfa0a
OK ! I was lucky..., nonetheless, it does show that such genealogical evidence is available in a few seconds with a simple click of a button ! (anywhere, in Belgium)
All you need is to be friendly enough with some secretary who’s ready to abandon her morning cuppa. (not available in the afternoons)
Nonetheless, (with all the ancient BDM books behind me) she said that I’d need to contact the
Président Tribunal 1re Instance,
5500, Dinant
if I wanted to photograph the BDM pages. “This is new” she said ! “Ever since people started tearing out pages and using fluo pens; authorization is now needed.” Dinant of course is for my region !
But of course, as they all know me here as... http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/3994/scotsguards.jpg
it was perhaps my “kilt above the knee” that tickled her fancy. Lol !
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Dan
Name or surname, it can be confusing. In my last post they start with the surname, except : Coesemans . (‘will underline them now)
Gosh, I’ve never thought about that. I don’t think the term ‘Caucasian’ strictly means : white. Isn’t « European » the correct name now ? The original people in Belgium were Celts, and we have the Franks, Spanish, French, etc. So, mixing up or genes, or exceptions : white and white doesn’t always result in white. Can’t help you really with this.
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sorry about your mother in law, Lain.
Yes you do need a permission of the Court of First Instance, not only because of the ‘vandalism’ (I don’t understand such behavior), it’s mainly due the privacy laws. In case you didn’t already, just send a letter, such as this :
Au Président du Tribunal de Première Instance.
(the adrress)
Sujet: Recherches dans les registres de l'état civil (art 45.1, 3ième par.)
Monsieur le président,
Dans le cadre de la réalisation de mon arbre généalogique, (surnames, eg your wife’s parents) et apparentés, je souhaiterais effectuer des recherches familiales.
Je vous demande dés lors, de m'accorder la permission de procéder à ces recherches généalogiques dans les différents registres de l'état civil des communes ressortantes de votre arrondissement.
Dans l'attente de vous lire, je vous prie d'agréer Monsieur le président, l'expression de mes sentiments distingués.
(your name and adrress)
The permmision is free and valid for all cities in de judicial district of Dinant for one year.
Thanks for the tip, on my next visit to the town hall I take someone with me from the Glengarry pub in Ghent or their Flemish Caldedonian Pipes and Drums. No real Scots, but as good as.
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Thanks Leen ! And I don't know if I should congratulate you on your English or your French ! ;)