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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: pinkwindsor on Sunday 28 July 13 21:40 BST (UK)
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Just found an ancestor whose details found are written like this...
George Thomas Putnam of 2, Elmshott lane died 28 April 1931 at Great Western Railway Line, Slough. Administration London 4 July to Matilda Jane Putnam (Widow) Effects £1285 14s 9d.
Does that mean he was killed on the railway line? Sorry if that sounds like a daft question but I can't find any other information about him! ???
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You could send for his death certificate.
Deaths Jun 1931
Putnam Thomas G Age 31 Eton Vol 3a Page 1008
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Thank you so much for the details - I'll do that! ;D
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The fact that he was only 31 makes me think there is a high possibility that he died on the railway.
Perhaps he worked on the railway?
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Yes, I think that too... Can't find any link to him on Ancestry but he lived in the same road as my father ???
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There are free credits to be had on Find my past. You need to do it TONIGHT!
http://www.findmypast.co.uk/content/offers/telegraph
I think you will easily find him as Thomas G Putnam
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I expect you missed the credits.
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Oh goodness I didn't get much sleep last night! I used half the credits and will be bit more choosy with the last 25 as I got a bit excited! Thank you so much ;D
I found Thomas on the 1911 census..He was indeed my uncle so I'll send off for the death certificate today. I did also discover on that census that I'd had another uncle who no one had spoken to me about! ???
Anyway, thank you so much....I feel too many hours working on this again ;D
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Hi
Could be more detail (witnesses etc) on the marriage certificate?
Marriage Jun 1925 Marylebone1a 1284
Thomas G Putnam / Matilda J Rawles
Ray
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Thank you very much Ray, I'll look into that too!
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Hi
It will be worth getting his death certificate
Jun 1931 Eton 3a 1008
Do you need to know anything else about him/them? . . . . .
She born 1896 Wells Somerset dau of Arthur 1865 & Alice 1866
2 sons 1927/1930
Shout if you do?
Ray
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Thank you so much! That's so kind of you! ;D
I did find a John Henry Putnam on that 1911 Census, aged 11 months. He's marked down as a son and yet my father ( Nor anyone else for that matter) mentioned him at all. Due to it being the 1911 census, I'm struggling to track him after that. The family were all from either Slough or Edmunton, London and I've tried to look using the free credits (As this mystery has taken over somewhat!) but can't seem to find any further information.
Would you be kind enough to point me in the right direction after the 1911 census?
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Oh how sad, just noticed that my original query had two sons that you mention (1927/30) That means that there were only 1 and 4 years old when their father died, possibly on the railway :(
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at the age of 31 he left £1286 - a lot of money - you could buy 3 houses cash for that much money in 1931 - so I hardly think he was a Railway worker ...my dad was a Fireman on the railway in 1950`s and his wage was £10 a week ....
if you found him in 1911 census - was he with his dad ?...if so - what was his dads occupation ?
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My Grandfather (His Dad) was a Coachman/labourer but I don't know where. All I know is that he looked after horses as my Dad used to talk about the horses.
You have a very good point about the effects left to his widow.
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Hi
Some gap filling
Birth Jun 1896 Wells Somerset 5c 480 Matilda Jane Rawles
Marriage Jun 1925 Marylebone 1a 1284 / Matilda Jane Rawles + Putnam
Ray
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Well, just looked through my late uncles scribbling and George Thomas Putnam was called Tom (My Uncle Tom) and it says that he was pushed off a train (With no money, not sure if someone was trying to mug him or he was pushed off the train for not having any money!) It also says that he was in WW1 at age 16 as a signaller (Runner between the trenches) He went onto marry Matilda, who confusingly was called Hilda! They had two boys, one called Ray and another called Don.
Wow! I think I need a coffee now ;D
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As for the John Henry Putnam that I mentioned as to being on the 1911 but there's absolutely no mention whatsoever anywhere, I still haven't a scoobie ::)
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There maybe a newspaper report about the death , ( maybe a Slough local paper ? )
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So in effect - he was murdered !!! if he slipped it was an accident - but pushed ?
Not very nice for you to find that - as Jan has stated - I presume there was a coroners report ?...wonder if anyone was ever charged ?
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Not sure how to find out about it, would they have reported that in a newspaper in 1931? Sounds like murder to me, after all he had to very young children at home :(
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As for the John Henry Putnam that I mentioned as to being on the 1911 but there's absolutely no mention whatsoever anywhere, I still haven't a scoobie ::)
George James Putman was married twice , ( which you may know about ) and he had children from the first marriage , so maybe John Henry aged 11 months was a grandson, born to an unmarried daughter , I see from Ancestry there's an Ada Putnam marrying in so maybe John Henry was hers and thus after her marriage took his stepfathers name ,
It was fairly common back then to pass off a grandchild as ones own child to spare the gossip surrounding illegitimacy,( and Eleanor being a second wife) was young enough to be considered the mother
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Hi,
The death certificate will show if there was an inquest; will also give the name of the Coroner. If you are lucky the file will be at the county archives.
Nanny Jan
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Got him ! ?
Indexed as Thomas George PUTMAN in the census I can't tell you about.
"You will have to look him up"
Ray
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Hi
Which therefore should make this a distinct possibility . . . . .
Birth Sep 1899 Edmonton 3a 541 Thomas George Putnam
Ray
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Thank you! I'll order the death certificate of Tom (George Thomas Putnam -the one who got pushed off the train) and the birth certificate of John Henry Putnam so I can see who his mother was! The marrying twice by my grandfather has caused a bit of confusion while researching! ;D
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The birth certificate will tell you for sure, but at the moment I wouldn't think there's any particular reason to suppose that John wasn't Eleanor's son. FreeBMD shows two subsequent Putnam births with mmn Angel in Edmonton (1912 and 1916) suggesting the couple were still having children after 1911.
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Electoral rolls for 1932-1938 show John Henry Putnam at 2 Primrose Avenue, Enfield with George James & Eleanor Putnam.
Post-war we see Eleanor still at the same address in 1949, but no sign of George or John. (It looks as though George had died in Edmonton district Sep qtr 1942 aged 85).
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That makes sense, my dad used to talk about a house in Primrose Avenue and I have very old photographs of him standing on the steps. I do wonder why no one mentioned him, although I do remember talk of 'Aunt Ada' who looks to me to be from George Putnam's first marriage, with Eleanor having Thomas George, then Arthur etc.... I think!
Thank you so much, I wish I could source the information as quickly as everyone on here!
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FreeBMD has a possible marriage for John in Edmonton district, Jun qtr 1938.
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Sadly it looks as though John died as a war casualty (albeit after VE Day):
www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/2356758/PUTNAM,%20JOHN%20HENRY
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Thank you, yes, he married Doris Gerhard in 1938.. Wondered if he had children as they would be mu cousins! ???
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Goodness, that's interesting, I'll have to investigate the Army Roll of Honour that I found for John Henry Putnam.
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Fascinating... Just found the images of the war cemetery in Germany!
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National Probate Calendar, 1946
John Henry PUTNAM of 294A Neasden Lane London NW10 died 14 June 1945 on war service. Administration (with Will) Llandudno 21 January 1946 to Doris Putnam widow.
Effects £877 14s 5d.
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The GRO has an overseas (Armed Forces) death registration for him - index details below:
GRO War Death Army Other Ranks (1939 to 1948)
PUTNAM, John H (Corporal, of the Royal Armoured Corps) Number:7934216
Year: 1945
Volume : 17
Page: 360
The certificate can be ordered online from the GRO using their Overseas Events form. In my experience such certificates can be sparse on the cause and precise circumstances of death, but you might get some indication as to why he died several weeks after VE Day.
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My son and I were trying to work out when war ended and thought he must have been killed right at the end, but never thought it would have been after VE Day!
Thank you SO much for your help, it's fascinating and very rewarding to me :)
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You're welcome :)
A snippet from this site about his regiment hints at why he may have stayed on in Germany:
www.iccy.org.uk/devils-own.htm
"After the German surrender the Regiment occupied a considerable area of Schleswig-Holstein."
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Thank you! :)
I remember my elderly uncle saying that someone got shot in the back, maybe this is the person?
What a lot of tragedy in my family!!
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The Regiment has a museum (extremely close to where I am sitting right now!). I wonder whether their Curator or archivist may be of help to you in finding out more about what happened to John?
http://www.iccy.org.uk/museum.htm
Added: if it would help you I'd be more than happy to pop over there myself :)
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Goodness, that is kind of you! If you do find yourself wandering over in that direction, your help would be fantastic! :) From past experience, I've never had much luck when I've emailed someone who I thought could help...
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The Curator isn't there today but may be in tomorrow. I've left a message - will let you know what develops.
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That's extremely kind of you to do that, thank you very much. I really appreciate it :)
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He went onto marry Matilda, who confusingly was called Hilda!
Hi I'm so glad you got the credits in time! Do you think she was called Tilda, rather than Hilda.....That is more usual.
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Thank you, yes, he married Doris Gerhard in 1938.. Wondered if he had children as they would be mu cousins! ???
I cannot find any children of this marriage, but it looks as though Doris remarried.
Marriages Mar 1949
Putnam Doris J Robinson Arthur W Edmonton Vol 5e Page 627
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My elderly uncle may just have got muddled with Hilda, Matilda or indeed Tilda ;D
Just discovered through all the scribblings that John Henry Putnam was called Jack by the family, and I can now see that he was indeed my Uncle. He married Dorris but, you're right, it doesn't seem that they had children. I was told that Jack was shot in the back so I'm expecting that he didn't survive to see the very end of the war, sadly...
My poor grandparents, Thomas killed at age 31 and 'Jack' at age 35..!!
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Though the death might in fact be murder; only the death certificate will tell that, I think it is more likely that he was travelling without a ticket and was removed from the train at Slough either by a guard or ticket inspector. This was and is normal practice for dealing with passengers who cannot or refuse to pay. They are NOT pushed from the train, simply escorted off sometimes into the hands of the police at the first scheduled stop after they are discovered. Of course what happened after he was removed from the train is a conjecture that only the certificate and any news reports will tell.
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Yes, I think you're right as my elderly uncle mentioned 'No money' but he did die on the railway line... Awaiting the death certificate anyway!
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The Curator isn't there today but may be in tomorrow. I've left a message - will let you know what develops.
Just to update - I met the Curator this evening and he had very helpfully copied the pages of the Regimental Nominal Roll relating to John Henry Putnam.
The new information is this: the roll records that John had served in the regiment since 30 January 1941, and on 14 June 1945 was "accidentally killed".
He told me that any further information will be in:
(1) Records archived at the Army Manning & Records Office in Glasgow*
(2) Regimental war diaries (if they survive) in the National Archives.
* In fact this seems now to be called the Army Personnel Centre:
www.veterans-uk.info/service_records/army.html
There is of course also the option of purchasing the death certificate - details previously given.
If you send me a PM with an email address I would be happy to scan the documents tomorrow and let you have them. Alternatively I can put them in the post to you if you prefer.
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That's absolutely wonderful, thank you so very much for your help! (I will send you a PM)
I live in between Dundee and Aberdeen so I could easily go to Glasgow for the day and see if I can find anything in the Archives. I'll order the death certificates today too.
Thank you ;D
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Not sure if you received my PM, I can't see it ???
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Yes - really sorry; I keep forgetting to take the documents in for scanning. Will do it today :)
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That's absolutely no problem, I just couldn't and still can't see my send messages ???
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If you checked the "save a copy in my outbox" option on the message, it should appear in your sent messages (menu running down left side of page).
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A point to be remembered about deaths in Germany after the surrender in May 1945 is that apart from accidental deaths which unfortunately occur any place and time; illness, there will be deaths from wounds sustained whilst the war was still in progress, and a considerable number were inflicted by "The werewolves" fanatical Nazis who continued to fight on after the ending of the war.
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That's an interesting fact thank you! It's amazing isn't it, I'm so interested in the Wars now but couldn't have cared less about it as a teenager! I know my Uncle was shot in the back as my family (His siblings) told me...
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Shot in the back does have the ring of an ambush about it, possibly by a Werewolf group.
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Shot in the back does have the ring of an ambush about it, possibly by a Werewolf group.
I'd think an ambush would be a odd fit with the "accidental death" recorded for him in Regimental records.
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I wish I could suggest a theory! Sadly, I can't remember too much of a family story but I am pretty sure that I remember that Uncle John (Jack!) was shot in the back by a German. Would that have been a possibility? Of course, I'll never know the true details...
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It could be an accident. Another soldier loading or unloading a weapon.
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It could indeed have been.. Will investigate further and then at least I'll know ???
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One of my ancestors was involved in an unfortunate incident during WWI in NZ - an officer had given him a revolver to be cleaned, and on the assumption that it was unloaded he and another soldier were having a look at it.
It went off - bullet went through my ancestor's hand and killed the other man. It was judged to be an accident (it doesn't appear my man really knew which end of a gun was which - didn't exactly cover himself in glory).
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Goodness me! :o
I've just been told my Uncle was accidentally killed by 'Friendly Fire' What on earth is that?
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Shot by his own side unfortunately. Possibly mistaken for the enemy or his own side were just shooting at anything that moved. It might explain the 'shot in the back' if he happened to be pushing forward and someone behind him was also shooting in that direction.
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Hi,
The death certificate will show if there was an inquest;
There will almost certainly have been an inquest.
Deaths on the railways are one of the four circumstances in which an inquest before a Coroner AND JURY is required (the other three being deaths in aviation incidents; deaths in police custody; and deaths in the workplace).