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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Aberdeenshire => Topic started by: RedMystic on Monday 29 July 13 03:29 BST (UK)
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Hi Chatters,
Help please. :)
I'm looking at an 1851 census transcript that says a woman was born in Hanie, Aberdeenshire & living at Brownhill, Monquhitter, Aberdeenshire.
I've tried Googling Hanie to no avail. Where might it be? Could there be a typo in the word Hanie?
In 1949 she got pregnant by a fellow who was working in Faddenhill Parish of Fyvie, so perhaps this Hanie wasn't far from there. (I'm stretching now, but though this extra info might help.)
Thanks in advance.
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Hi
You would need to look at the census image from Scotlandspeople to confirm but if it is Mary Ducquitt on Ancestry then FreeCen have transcribed her as Mary Duquid born Udnie, The heads wife was born in Udny so Udny/Udnie may be variations of the same place.
Andy
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Thanks andycand. I appreciate the insight. :)
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FindMyPast has Mary Duguitt age 22, b. Advie, Aberdeenshire. However I don't think Advie is in Aberdeenshire - you need to look at the actual image on ScotlandsPeople to be sure of what it says.
Duguitt may be a variant of Duguid.
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I think the name is pronounced something like Jookit. Can't find Hanie though.
Skoosh.
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Thank you for your help. :) Poor Mary had her name spelled innumerable ways. ::)
I'll purchase more SP credits later today & have a look at the original document to see if it sheds any light on the situation. Given what you've each shared, I'll be expecting to see the writing difficult to decipher.
She is among my strangest sleuths yet. Perhaps you won't mind if I slide in a general question about baptisms - this one for her son, Alexander Cheyne. ;D
Why would a child appear in baptismal records 4 times? ???
Alexander was baptized in accordance with the procedures of the Church of Scotland, 5 April 1851, at Brownhill, in Monquhitter Parish, Aberdeen, Scotland. There are four enties in the Register of Baptisms, Parish of Monquhitter, 1820-1854 for Alexander Cheyne
- Frame 98, 28 Dec 1849 "Alexander (3402) natural son of John Cheyne (864) Faddenhill Parish of Fyvie by Ann Duguid (3401) an unmarried woman in Brownhill was born 28th Dec'r 1849 and was baptized April 5th 1851 before witnesses John Duguid (3415), Crofter, Brownhill and Christian Ewerdine Housekeeper Manse of Monquhitter.
- Frame 99, 28 Dec 1849 "Alexander (3402) natural son of John Cheyne (864) Farm servant, Faddenhill, Parish of Fyvie by Mary Duguid (3401) an unmarried woman in Brownhill in this Parish was born December 28th 1849 and was baptized April 5th 1851 before witnesses Helen Simpson (3416) Wife of John Duguid (3415), Farmer, Brownhill and Christian Ewerdine, Housekeeper Manse of Monquhitter”.
- Frame 113 "28th December 1850 Alexander (3402) was born illegitimate Son of Mary Duguid (3401) and John Cheyne (864) in Brownhill and baptized before Witnesses Alexander and James Barber both there".
- Frame 202, 28 Dec 1849 “Alexander (3402), natural Son of John Cheyne (864), Farm Servant, Faddonhills, Parish of Fyvie, by Margaret Duguid (3401), an unmarried women in Brownhill in this Parish, was born Dec’r 28th 1849 and was baptized April 5th 1851 before Witnesses Helen Simpson (3416), Wife of John Duguid (3415), Farmer, Brownhill and Christian Ewerdine, Housekeeper, Manse of Monquhitter”.
The advantage for me is that it gives me a bit more info about who surrounded Mary (though I don't know if John Duguid was an uncle or a brother). The records do connect with what I've found about Mary living with a family named Barber.
So far, I've entered the Barbers in my tree as "foster" parents to Mary. ??? Any thoughts on their relationship would be greatly appreciated too. ::) ;D
In 1841 Mary is at:
Brownhill, Monquhitter, Aberdeenshire, Scotland
Age 35; Alexander Barber, Elizabeth Walker, George Barber (10), Mary Duigid (12)
In 1851 Mary is at:
Brownhill, Monquhitter, Aberdeenshire, Scotland
Alexander Barbour 49; Elisabeth 41, Elisabeth 2 (niece); Alexr 1 (Mary's son but transcribed as son of Alexander/Elizabeth), Mary Ducquitt 22, Elesibeth Sutherland 14 Servant
In 1861, I lose Mary Duguid, but find the rest of the family:
Brownhill, Monquhitter, Aberdeenshire, Scotland
Alexander, Elizabeth & grandson Alexander Cheyne
In 1871, I lose Mary Duguid & Alexander Cheyne, but have the Barbers at
Brownhill, Monquhitter, Aberdeenshire, Scotland
Brownhill, Age: 70; Relation to Head of House: Head; Alexander, Elizabeth
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RM, can I take it that you have seen this :-
http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~cheyne/p2821.htm
Regards
Malky
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Thanks Malky, I have seen that & have had quite a discussion with Jim about it. (We met in person for the first time yesterday when he visited me at my new home on Vancouver Island.)
I'm trying to dig a bit deeper as I'd really like to know what happened on this line. Mary's son George is my gg grandmother's 1/2 brother.
I can see that George was assigned the surname Barber / Barbour in 1851; but used Cheyne in 1861. I'm not sure which he used after that. My gg grandmother didn't bring pics of him to Canada, so I'm assuming they didn't have contact.
Thanks again
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Have you had a look through the records in
http://www.anesfhs.org.uk/databank/miindex/miindex.php
for her death?
Regards
Malky
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Thanks again Malky,
I've looked at the cemetery lists. The only possible match I see for Mary is a Mary E Duguid in Undy Cemetery - 1901 if memory serves. Not knowing her parents, it makes it hard to identify if its her or not by way of dc. I've not been able to find a bc for her.
Do you know anyone who has a transcript of that headstone in the off chance it mentions being erected by her son? Of course, it wouldn't have been out of the question for her to have married.
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Check out this death;Mary Duguid,45,other surname Barber,died Monquhitter,1875.
I "spent " 1 credit & found her!
flst
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Had a quick look but don't think the Mary Duguid in Udny is her. Forgot to say the death certificate I mentioned was in scotlandspeople:)
flst
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Awesome. Thanks Flst. :) I'm getting better at SP, but still miss things that seem obvious to others. ::) ;D
I'm off to purchase that now.
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Good morning. Thanks again for all the help so far.
I've successfully retrieved Mary's death certificate from SP. (Why does that site scare me so much? ::) :P ;D)
Please provide your thoughts on her parents. She was born illegitimately to the couple in the cropped record I've posted. How would you interpret the reference to Elizabeth Walker with M.S. Barber on the line that should be occupation? Might it mean Elizabeth Walker was a maid servant in the Barber home? ???
In the record directly above, the mother's name Margaret Bartlett appears with occupation M.S. Smith; similarly in the mother's record immediately below Mary's is Jane Stuart M.S. Smith.
Thanks again for any direction you can provide. :)
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I think women were not expected to have an occupation, so the space was always used for the maiden surname.
Josey
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Thanks for weighing in Josey. Sorry to be obtuse. ::) ;D
Are you saying that Elizabeth Walker's name was actually Barber? ???
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Scottish married women were known [as you probably know] by their own name for many centuries. Only later as forename then 'maiden name or married surname' eg Elizabeth Barber or Walker [born Barber but married a Walker]. Perhaps it refers to her being 'known as' Walker rather than having married. I suppose it was always a chance that the 2 names were transposed & she would have [erroneously] be called Elizabeth Walker or Barber. And don't forget that the information on the death certificate is only as good as the knowledge of the informant & sometimes hearsay.
Josey
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Thanks Josey.
While I was out for my walk & began to wonder if it meant "mother's surname".
Elizabeth appears to have gone on to marry Mary's father, so her married name afterwards was Duguid. I'll check to see if she was married before. ::)
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Clarifying what M.S. means is becoming more critical to this sleuth. Elizabeth Walker M.S. Barber is what is listed for Mary Duguid's mother. Others on the page also have the M.S. note.
In the record directly above, the mother's name Margaret Bartlett appears with occupation M.S. Smith; similarly in the mother's record immediately below Mary's is Jane Stuart M.S. Smith.
It doesn't seem likely that all of them were married before.[/s] Please ignore this comment. I'm a little dense, but I have figured it out. ::) ;D
It gets more complicated. ;) Is this a coincidence? :-\ The Barber family that Mary lived with had wife
Elizabeth W Walker
Birth 31 May 1809 in Tillymaud, Udny, Aberdeenshire, Scotland
Death 29 Nov 1882 in Brownhill, Monquhitter, Aberdeenshire, Scotland
who married Alexander Barber 21 Nov 1830.
Maybe, she is actually Mary Duguid's (b1828) mother. ???
However, it looks like Mary's father, William Duguid, also married an Elizabeth Walker. :-\ Ignore this too. This Elizabeth Walker was born the year before Mary, so can't be her mum. ;)
See what I mean about needing some clarity regarding what M.S. means? It may be the telling detail. Thoughts? ??? ::)
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In the record directly above, the mother's name Margaret Bartlett appears with occupation M.S. Smith; similarly in the mother's record immediately below Mary's is Jane Stuart M.S. Smith.
Sorry I was confused :) but I thought that clip was from a death certificate.
But what are the father's surnames on the Bartlett & Stuart entries? If Bartlett & Stuart, then the mothers' maiden surnames were Smith & Smith.
Is there any guidance on the SP site about abbreviations?
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Sorry - now I've really confused you. :'(
The clip is from the death record from SP. ;)
The records above & below are for children who died from different, unrelated families. Each father's name appears in full for all 3 records, then his occupation. It's only the mother's records that show maiden name followed by M.S. & a surname along with another surname (not the father's surname). suname that is the father's surname.
That was why I wondered if it meant "mother's surname" (thereby PERHAPS providing the surname of the deceased person's grandmother) . ??? I may really be gasping at straws here. ::) ;D
Where would I look for SP abbreviations?
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Josey, it looks like you're on target with mother's maiden name ;), but it's not making sense to me.
http://www.scotlandspeoplehub.gov.uk/research/deaths-1856-present.html
Based on this & what you've been trying to reinforce for me, Elizabeth Walker's (mother of illegitimate daughter Mary Duguid) maiden name is Barber. ::) So Elizabeth was a Walker when Mary was born, but had been a Barber? :P
Now, I must figure out a way to determine if Mary's mother was Elizabeth Walker who appears to have married Mary's father OR if she is Elizabeth Walker who married Alexander Barber in 1830.
Now I'm wondering if Mary's mother was sister to Alexander Barber who raised her.
Yikes - way too many permutations & combinations. :-\
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Now, I must figure out a way to determine if Mary's mother was Elizabeth Walker who appears to have married Mary's father OR if she is Elizabeth Walker who married Alexander Barber in 1830.
So here's where I'm ending up:
- Elizabeth Walker who married Mary's father is too young to have been her mother. She was born the year before Mary.
- Elizabeth Walker who married Alexander Barber in Nov 1830 appears to have been maiden name Walker, so likely not her for mother of Mary.
I've not been able to make a documented link so far, but I'm sensing that Elizabeth Walker (nee Barber) was likely sister to Alexander Barber & daughter to James Barber, both of whom were witnesses at Mary Duguid's son's baptism.
Whew! Still working to try to make sense of this one. ::) :P ;D
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- Elizabeth Walker who married Mary's father is too young to have been her mother. She was born the year before Mary.
- Elizabeth Walker who married Alexander Barber in Nov 1830 appears to have been maiden name Walker, so likely not her for mother of Mary.
I've not been able to make a documented link so far, but I'm sensing that Elizabeth Walker (nee Barber) was likely sister to Alexander Barber & daughter to James Barber, both of whom were witnesses at Mary Duguid's son's baptism.
Good logic, well done.
Still intrigued by the 4 entries for Alexander Cheyne's baptism......
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Hi,I've spent some time trying to make sense of your findings.Who was the informant on Mary Duguid's death certificate? I'm wondering how well they knew her.It may have been a slip of the tongue & they meant to say her mother was Elizabeth Barber nee Walker! I think that Elizabeth (wife of Alexander Barber) was a Walker. I note there are quite a few Barber households in the Brownhills area of Monquhitter.There is a Garden Barber married to Jane Walker, who was born in the parish of Udny (as was Elizabeth).It is possible they were sisters. Alexander & Garden appear to be sons of James & Christine Barber who are also at Brownhills in 1851.
flst
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In 1861 Alexander Cheyne is living at Brownhill & is a grandson of Alexander & Elizabeth Barber.Is this the proof you need?:)
flst
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I'm wondering how well they knew her.It may have been a slip of the tongue & they meant to say her mother was Elizabeth Barber nee Walker! I think that Elizabeth (wife of Alexander Barber) was a Walker.
flst
Hi flst,
The informant was George Barber, neighbour - possibly the same George Barber who was in Alexander Barber / Elizabeth's home in 1841. :-\ I suspect he is their son, as Alexander / Elizabeth married in Nov 1830 & he was born in 1831.
Do you think a son could have made that error? :-\ A recorder certainly could. ::)
I've guests coming for dinner, so must run for a few hours.
I'll get back to this as soon as I can.
BTW, I'm trying to ultimately find out what happened to Alexander Cheyne, but I'd also like to sort out his parentage. I've not had a lot of time today to look at SP - life is getting in the way. ;D
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Hi
I'm thinking along the same lines as flst in that the surnames of Marys mother are the wrong way around. The death registration indicates that Marys parents were not married, what it is saying is that Marys father was William Duguid and her mother was Elizabeth Walker m.s. (maiden surname) Barber but perhaps it should have read Elizabeth Barber M.S. Walker. The other entries on the Register page indicate the mothers maiden names and are not occupations.
There is a marriage on Familysearch.org 13th Nov 1830 Udny, Aberdeenshire and 21st Nov 1830 Monquitter, Aberdeenshire between Alexander Barber and Elizabeth Walker. The 2 references indicate that the bride and groom were from differnent parishes and probably relate to the banns being read. You would need to see the Parish Registers to see if the actual wording clarifies this.
As Mary was born before this my thoughts are that Mary was the illigitimate daughter of William Duguid and Elizabeth Walker, Elizabeth then subsequently married Alexander Barber. The 1851 census has Elizabeth born in Udny so the Kirk Sessions for Udny may have information re Mary.
Andy
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Hi again. Thanks for the recent posts. My guests are gone, kitchen is clean, & I've a few minutes before bedtime. ;) ;D
Flst, you made a comment about the number of Barbers. While I'm not officially searching them, they seem to be a lynchpin to sorting through this situation.
I note there are quite a few Barber households in the Brownhills area of Monquhitter.There is a Garden Barber married to Jane Walker, who was born in the parish of Udny (as was Elizabeth).It is possible they were sisters. Alexander & Garden appear to be sons of James & Christine Barber who are also at Brownhills in 1851.
flst
I think that Alexander Barber (who married Elizabeth Walker) & had Mary Duguid living with him in 1841 & 1851 appears to be a half sibling to the following people. They share a common father in James (1774-1862), but must have a different mother as James Barber & Christine Milne (1786-1851) married Apr 1812 & Alexander was born abt 1802. :
George Barber 1813 – 1891 Canada (based on a tree I've not verified)
Garden Barber 1815 – 1878 USA (based on a tree I've not verified)
John Barber 1817 –
William Barber 1824 –
Arthur Barber 1827 – Scotland (based on a tree I've not verified)
I think one of these children had a child Elizabeth who is the 2 year old niece living with Alexander Barber in 1851. She goes on to be called a "daughter" of Alexander Barber & he dies in her household in 1900 in Rennies Croft, Fyvie, Millbrex, Aberdeenshire, Scotland.
Hi Andy
There is a marriage on Familysearch.org 13th Nov 1830 Udny, Aberdeenshire and 21st Nov 1830 Monquitter, Aberdeenshire between Alexander Barber and Elizabeth Walker. The 2 references indicate that the bride and groom were from different parishes and probably relate to the banns being read. You would need to see the Parish Registers to see if the actual wording clarifies this.
Andy
I'll pull the marriage record off SP tomorrow to see if it clarifies the surname. I have the same marriage date as you do. In the event it is telling for those of you who know Scotland better than I, it appears that Elizabeth Walker was from Tillymaud, Udny, Aberdeenshire. The info I have for Alexander Barber includes a baptism in Sealscrook, Monquhitter, Aberdeenshire.
Thanks again for the help. My pillow I calling my name. :)
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One more thing before I go to bed.
John Duguid & wife Helen Simpson were at the baptism of Alexander Cheyne in 1849. I'm not sure how they fit in the picture or if it clears or muddies the water. :-\ On a quick search,
- John Duguid 1805-1880 Garmond, Monquhitter
- Helen Simpson 1806-1883
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John & Hellen Duguid are at Brownhills, Monquhitter in 1841 & 1851 censuses.If you use freecen you can scroll through the pages & see who the neighbours are !
flst
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Mary's son George is my gg grandmother's 1/2 brother.
I can see that George was assigned the surname Barber / Barbour in 1851; but used Cheyne in 1861. I'm not sure which he used after that.
You'll be pleased to hear I found him (using the Cheyne surname) in the 1871-1891 censuses in Old Machar,Aberdeen.He was a railway employee.
flst
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Hi flst.
Sorry for sending you on a wild-goose chase on that one. It appears in that early post I typed his name incorrectly. :-[ Mary's son was Alexander Cheyne. (I think I indicated his name correctly in all the other posts - sorry again.)
I'm home from a daytrip so will be going on-line with SP to see if I can find his dc. I started to look last night, but nothing was immediately obvious for an Alexander Cheyne b 28 Dec 1849, father John Cheyne / mother Mary Duguid.
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I'm thinking along the same lines as flst in that the surnames of Marys mother are the wrong way around. The death registration indicates that Marys parents were not married, what it is saying is that Marys father was William Duguid and her mother was Elizabeth Walker m.s. (maiden surname) Barber but perhaps it should have read Elizabeth Barber M.S. Walker. The other entries on the Register page indicate the mothers maiden names and are not occupations.
Andy
Hi Andy, I'm increasingly in agreement with you that it is fairly likely that Mary's mother was Elizabeth Walker & that the mother's surnames on the dc were flipped in error. For the moment, I'll leave that part of the search.
Now, I'm trying to sort through Alexander Cheyne, son of Mary Duguid & illegitimate son of John Cheyne.
(Sorry again flst for indicating the name George in an earlier post- this Alexander had a 1/2 brother George born one year later (1849) to John Cheyne / Ann Johnstone & if we've got the relationships sorted correctly on this thread, his grandparents (Alexander Barber / Elizabeth Walker) had a son George b1831.)
The last time I see Alexander is in the 1861 census with Alexander Barber & wife Elizabeth. He is shown with surname Cheyne, is 11 years old, and is reflected as grandson.
I thought I had Alexander nailed on SP as there was an Alexander Duguid Cheyne who died 1862 with mother's maiden name Duguid. Unfortunately, when I bought the record, he was an 8 mos old baby & his parents were married. :P
I've feel like I've been expending SP credits like a drunken fool. It's fun, but getting expensive. ::) I'd like to contain it a bit if possible. ;D Do you have any advice on what I should search next to try to find Alexander?
There is no Alexander Barber (he was shown with that surname in the 1851 census) with mother surname Duguid.
Any other suggestions?
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M.S. Stands for Maiden Surname ie last name before marriage!!