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Some Special Interests => Heraldry Crests and Coats of Arms => Topic started by: lionrampant on Monday 29 July 13 18:34 BST (UK)
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I'm looking for the crest for male-line descendants of Tudor Trefor.
The shield in all blazons is the same but there are a few different crests, and I'd like to know which one is the true one - perhaps others have been created by different branches of descendants.
The most popular seems to be 'a lion rampant or', but then there's also this one:
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=e_lBAAAAcAAJ&pg=PT877&lpg=PT877&dq=wivern+tuda+trevor&source=bl&ots=WNJvDN-l8N&sig=BzkfBuX3H9gBl1h6-9G6PBy6AlM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=FaT2UbnSLseEhQf5lYCAAg&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=wivern%20tuda%20trevor&f=false
See Tuda Trefor - the shield is the same but the crest is "on a cap of dignity gules turned up erm. a wivern sable ducally gorged or". Some descendants of Tudur Trefor such as the Hill-Trevor family appear to have this crest too, but my question is when was it first used/come into existence - could all male-line descendants of Tudor Trefor also use it?
Finally, I've also found 'a lion rampant sable'.
As confusing as this is, hope it makes sense and any thanks in advance for your replies.
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2 more questions:
I've read mixed things about lion rampant crests - are they cut off so only half the lion's shown or not?
Also, where the other crests are described as just 'a lion rampant or', does this mean it's on a wreath as standard?
Thanks.
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If the lion is only half a lion it's described as demi-lion.
Simply stating a lion, means the whole thing.
A "lion rampant or" is a lion, in the rampant attitude, coloured gold (or is gold in heraldry).
If it's standing on a wreath, this is mentioned in the blazon.
However most crests stand on a torse - a ring of twisted cloth.
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Thanks KGarrad,
Yes, sorry I meant a torse not a wreath. So does that mean 'a lion rampant or' would be a lion as you describe standing on a torse?
Also, any suggestions for the reliability of the other crests such as the one in Berry's 'Encyclopaedia Heraldica' -I was reading that the General Armoury is renowned for its inaccuracy, how does Berry's work compare? This seems to be the only source for attributing the wyvern crest to Tudor Trefor.
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As I understand things (and willing to be corrected!), different branches of the family might use different crests?
But crest, and helmet, and mantling, etc. are all part of the blazon, so I don't know if this is factual?
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From what I've read Welsh heraldry works a bit differently, there's an interesting article here: http://www.theheraldrysociety.com/articles/wales/welsh_heraldic_studies.htm
The impression I get is that most of the Welsh tribal leaders were assigned arms and their descendant families use them - this is apparent enough as there are at least a dozen families (probably a lot more) who claim descent from Tudor Trevor and they all have the identical undifferentiated shield which he bore, or at least was claimed to bear.
The thing is though there are 3 different crests, described above, which different families seem to use, and that's what prompted this question.
The lion rampant variations seem explicitly related enough, it's just this wyvern crest that puzzles me. Quite a few people in various heraldry books with the surname 'Trevor' have this crest too - and all of them claim male-line descent from Tudor Trevor and have his shield. The fact that Tudor Trevor himself is assigned this crest is questionable and I'd be interested to see what truth there is in it.
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I think I've solved the puzzle here, they are different branches of descendants which I've managed to piece apart.
Could you look at the entry for Eyton of Eyton in The General Armoury, and where it says 'derived through...and there is a list of names back to Elidyr ap Rhys Sais', to which generation does it mean the arms were first used?
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The entry I found says:
Elidyr ap Rhyssais (Lord of Eyton, &c, co. Denbigh, fifth in descent from Tudor Trevor, said to have relinquished his paternal coat for the following, which has been borne by his descendants, the EYTONS, of Eyton and Rhuabon, and others. EYTON pedigree, by Randle Holme, 1674).
Erm. a lion ramp. az.
That is an ermine shield, with a blue lion rampant.
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Thanks for your reply KGarrad.
Would the crests have been assumed later then?
Of the many families descended from Elidyr ap Rhys Sais, very few it would seem actually registered/confirmed their arms with the College of Arms. Apparently the Sutton of Sutton family; Lewis of Galthorpe family and Deckas of Kynton family registered - can't find them in any heraldic volumes though.
It would be interesting to see if they use the same crest or a different one - as I said at first this is the really intriguing bit!
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It was not unusual for someone who married into a family to adopt the crest of his wife's family. The circunstances under which this arose were usually when the wife could not inherit her family's coat of arms and so they could not be combined.
In any other circumstances one would expect a difference to be applied to the shield.
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Thank you for your comment behindthefrogs.
There appear to have been a variety of Dragon/wyvern and lion crests used by related families in their descent from Tudor Trevor though.
I don't suppose you can find the crest for any of the other related families such as Sutton of Sutton family; Lewis of Galthorpe family and Deckas of Kynton, to see what crests they used for comparison?
Thanks for your time.
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Your request is almost impossible to answer without a detailed pedigree of the families involved and then probably only as a result of detailed research in record offices. Looking at general published data all I can say is that various branches of the Sutton family used a lion crest usually a demi lion or an erased head.