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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: Kate Walker on Monday 05 August 13 19:03 BST (UK)

Title: William Louis Leslie EVANS of Melbourne, c 1880
Post by: Kate Walker on Monday 05 August 13 19:03 BST (UK)
Hello

I'm a Rootsweb member from the UK, trying to track down Australian ancestors.

My great-grandmother was born Elspeth Ethel Eugene Evans, about 1880-82 in Melbourne. She became a music hall artiste, and travelled to Russia and then England. According to her death certificate, her father was  William Louis Leslie Evans, a master coach builder, who was shown deceased in 1901; her mother was Margaret Evans, born in Tasmania in 1853. The only other thing I know about Margaret was that she was in London in 1901 (census) staying with her daughter.

I'm finding nothing through Ancestry, and wondered if anyone had any ideas for further searching?

Very many thanks in advance
Kate Walker
Title: Re: William Louis Leslie EVANS of Melbourne, c 1880
Post by: ennael on Tuesday 06 August 13 00:30 BST (UK)
Hi,
  Can you provide Elspeths'  married name please?

Leanne
Title: Re: William Louis Leslie EVANS of Melbourne, c 1880
Post by: Neil Todd on Tuesday 06 August 13 00:48 BST (UK)
And a further possible place she may have been born as there are no Births to a William and Margaret Evans in Victoria between 1870 and 1885 ???

Neil
Title: Re: William Louis Leslie EVANS of Melbourne, c 1880
Post by: rosball on Tuesday 06 August 13 00:53 BST (UK)
On the wills for William Evans on http://prov.vic.gov.au/ I have eliminated the two who were carriage spring makers - the one who died in 1900 was unmarried and the son of the one who died in 1902 who was married to Edith and children named.

They take soooo long to load that I haven't explored the others - didn't seem likely.

cheers,
   Ros
Title: Re: William Louis Leslie EVANS of Melbourne, c 1880
Post by: Neil Todd on Tuesday 06 August 13 00:56 BST (UK)
Without buying the certs I have eliminated children born to a William Evans, But there are 4 births listed to a Margaret Evans between 1860 and 1890. ???

Neil
Title: Re: William Louis Leslie EVANS of Melbourne, c 1880
Post by: ennael on Tuesday 06 August 13 00:58 BST (UK)
Hi,
  This would seem to be Elspeth, under BLORE surname:

http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/43177/pages/10077/page.pdf
Edit to add:

Marriages Jun 1916
CHANDLER Elspeth E E
BLORE  Eastbourne 2b 155






Leanne
Title: Re: William Louis Leslie EVANS of Melbourne, c 1880
Post by: ~MERLIN~ on Tuesday 06 August 13 01:12 BST (UK)
She was married twice this is her first marriage:

Elspeth Ethel E EVANS m. Ashley Edgar CHANDLER dec qtr 1901 LAMBETH #1d/870

Title: Re: William Louis Leslie EVANS of Melbourne, c 1880
Post by: judb on Tuesday 06 August 13 01:16 BST (UK)
This is a peculiar entry in the Australian Birth Index:
Eileen Esther EVANS
Parents; William Evans, Margaret Healey
Birth Place:   Essendon, Victoria
Registration Year:   1800
Registration Place:   Victoria

Am not familiar with this sort of entry which is clearly odd in the registration year and with no ref no. ???

I only have access through ancestry so perhaps someone else with the disc may be able to shed more light.

Judith
Title: Re: William Louis Leslie EVANS of Melbourne, c 1880
Post by: ~MERLIN~ on Tuesday 06 August 13 01:18 BST (UK)
My great-grandmother was born Elspeth Ethel Eugene Evans, about 1880-82 in Melbourne.

What documents do you have that prove she was born in Melbourne, Victoria, Australia?

According to her death certificate, her father was  William Louis Leslie Evans, a master coach builder, who was shown deceased in 1901; her mother was Margaret Evans, born in Tasmania in 1853.

So, her parents had the same surname EVANS or don't you know her mother's maiden name?
Title: Re: William Louis Leslie EVANS of Melbourne, c 1880
Post by: ~MERLIN~ on Tuesday 06 August 13 01:22 BST (UK)
Judith it's just a typical ANCESTRY error... one of the many thousands  ::)

EVANS Eileen Esther b. 1888 ESSENDON #2758
Father: William
Mother: Margaret HEALEY
Title: Re: William Louis Leslie EVANS of Melbourne, c 1880
Post by: ~MERLIN~ on Tuesday 06 August 13 01:30 BST (UK)
Can you transcribe the full details from BOTH her marriage certificates please?
Title: Re: William Louis Leslie EVANS of Melbourne, c 1880
Post by: Neil Todd on Tuesday 06 August 13 01:34 BST (UK)
 ;D ;D ;D Quote. ANCESTRY error... one of the many thousands

Love it. Birth Possibly 1880 do you think ::)

Neil 8)
Title: Re: William Louis Leslie EVANS of Melbourne, c 1880
Post by: judb on Tuesday 06 August 13 01:35 BST (UK)
Thanks, Merlin.  Ancestry is certainly a nuisance at times.  Good to eliminate this girl anyway.  :)

Judith
Title: Re: William Louis Leslie EVANS of Melbourne, c 1880
Post by: ~MERLIN~ on Tuesday 06 August 13 02:19 BST (UK)
Thanks, Merlin.  Ancestry is certainly a nuisance at times.  Good to eliminate this girl anyway.  :)

The parents to that birth were married in 1886 & there's another six births registered to them, so not the lady in question.

Can you see Elspeth & Margaret on any of the original census for 1901 & 1911?
Title: Re: William Louis Leslie EVANS of Melbourne, c 1880
Post by: Dundee on Tuesday 06 August 13 02:23 BST (UK)
1901 UK census
Holland Road, Lambeth
Class: RG13; Piece: 419; Folio: 144; Page: 10

Margaret EVANS, Head, widow, 43, Private Means, born Tasmania, Australia
Elsie EVANS, Daur, single, 21, Music Hall Artist Actor, born Melbourne, Australia
Olga (no surname, no ditto), Daur, single, 3, born Petersberg, Russia

Technically, Olga should be Margaret's daughter, but many often didn't give info in relation to the head of the family as they were supposed to.

Debra  :)
Title: Re: William Louis Leslie EVANS of Melbourne, c 1880
Post by: Dundee on Tuesday 06 August 13 02:29 BST (UK)
In 1911 Elsie is living with her husband Ashley CHANDLER in Sussex, no children born alive, still living or deceased.

Debra  :)
Title: Re: William Louis Leslie EVANS of Melbourne, c 1880
Post by: Dundee on Tuesday 06 August 13 03:01 BST (UK)
 ??? ???

NSW Marriage

1722/1875
EVANS, WILLIAM L L
MORSE, MARGARET H
Registered at ALBURY

Death in Victoria
1892


Wm L L EVANS
Died: Tungamah, Victoria
Age:    43
# 4395

Debra  :)
Title: Re: William Louis Leslie EVANS of Melbourne, c 1880
Post by: sparrett on Tuesday 06 August 13 09:17 BST (UK)
I suppose it is possible that the OLGA on the census whose relationship to the others is not quite defined, may be the daughter of ELSIE rather than MARGARET.

Margaret, if born in 1853 is not too old, of course to be a mother, but.......?
And she had been widowed a while if the death found by Debra is correct

Sue
Title: Re: William Louis Leslie EVANS of Melbourne, c 1880
Post by: Kate Walker on Tuesday 06 August 13 11:41 BST (UK)
Wow - I never expected to wake up to so many (or any) replies! Thank you, everyone, for reading and responding.
I can't tell you how exciting this is - it has been a family mystery for years.

And if I can help at all with research at this end, please do let me know.

So,  in answer to the questions:

Leanne: Yes, Elsie's married name was first Chandler, then Blore.

Merlin, I don't know her mother (Margaret)'s maiden name though I had wondered whether it might have been Eugene.... (A family member suggested that Elsie might have worked under the stage name of Eugene but that might just be guesswork). But I think that you may all have put paid to that theory! And re Melbourne: 1901 Census gives her birth place as Melbourne.

Re the details from the marriage certificates: on the Chandler marriage (Lambeth 29 Nov 1901) both parties are shown as living at 27 Holland Road, North Brixton; Elsie's age is 21 years (spinster) and her father is William Louis Leslie Evans (deceased) profession or rank  Coach Builder (Master). On the Blore marriage (Eastbourne, 4 April 1916) she is shown as a widow, aged 36, and her father's name is shown as William Louis Leslie Evans, and rank or profession is Gentleman Deceased.

Sue, Debra:  Olga was Elsie's daughter, born in St Petersburg when Elsie was quite young, so I think for 'social' reasons she was listed as Margaret's daughter. She was visiting her mother, with her Russian nurse, in 1901, and didn't come to live in England until she came to school in Eastbourne in about 1913 or so.

Debra: just read your last - that looks like a fit - thank you very much; that's got me through the biggest and longest-lasting brick wall.

Rootschat is amazing. Anything I can do to help anyone at all...?


Thank you all again - Kate
Title: Re: William Louis Leslie EVANS of Melbourne, c 1880
Post by: judb on Tuesday 06 August 13 13:22 BST (UK)
You're very welcome Kate!

You may not be aware that death certificates in Victoria contain much more information than those in UK.  This is the information requested by the registrar for a death certificate:
Deaths
Title: Re: William Louis Leslie EVANS of Melbourne, c 1880
Post by: jorose on Tuesday 06 August 13 15:43 BST (UK)
Given a death for William L L Evans in 1892, possibly of interest

http://prov.vic.gov.au/index_search?searchid=42
leaving Victoria Feb 1893, on the Hohenzollern, via Adelaide and on to Bremen:
Martha Evans, 34
Elsie, 10
Reggie, 2
Title: Re: William Louis Leslie EVANS of Melbourne, c 1880
Post by: Kate Walker on Wednesday 07 August 13 16:20 BST (UK)
Thanks, Jorose, that's given me a whole new line of enquiry.

I got the death certificate - lots of 'unknown's with regards family which suggests that he died away from family, possibly living apart from his wife; but it did tell me that he was born in England, and this time is shown as a painter and wheelwright (a bit like a coach maker perhaps?).
Now waiting for the marriage records to arrive, to see if they show more information.

Many thanks to all -
Kate :) :)
Title: Re: William Louis Leslie EVANS of Melbourne, c 1880
Post by: Dundee on Thursday 08 August 13 01:00 BST (UK)
Hi Kate,

Did the death cert give his middle names or just "L.L."?  Who was the informant?

Debra  :)
Title: Re: William Louis Leslie EVANS of Melbourne, c 1880
Post by: sparrett on Thursday 08 August 13 09:06 BST (UK)
This birth may possibly assist in eliminating the departure found by jorose in Reply #20 :-\

EVANS Regd Percy
Father Francis
Mother Martha EAST
Place WARRNAMBOOL
Year 1891
Reg. 28576

Sue
Title: Re: William Louis Leslie EVANS of Melbourne, c 1880
Post by: Kate Walker on Thursday 08 August 13 12:12 BST (UK)
No, just the initials were given (so still a question mark over whether this is our guy); the informant was ?'constable attending inquiry'. I've attached this on the off chance that someone can read more into this than I can.
Title: Re: William Louis Leslie EVANS of Melbourne, c 1880
Post by: sparrett on Thursday 08 August 13 12:30 BST (UK)
Hi Kate,
Having looked at the certificate, I agree with what you say in your reply # 21.
This does seem to be for the death of a man about whom little is known and it could well apply to your chap. I believe it is the correct man.
 
"constable attending the inquiry" is what I read in the informant column ,together with his name and other details.

Sue

Title: Re: William Louis Leslie EVANS of Melbourne, c 1880
Post by: cando on Friday 09 August 13 02:05 BST (UK)
??? ???

NSW Marriage

1722/1875
EVANS, WILLIAM L L
MORSE, MARGARET H
Registered at ALBURY

Death in Victoria
1892


Wm L L EVANS
Died: Tungamah, Victoria
Age:    43
# 4395

Debra  :)

These events occurred 115kms apart and the marriage was registered in the Albury district NSW and death in Vic.     Margaret stated she was born Tasmania c1858 on the 1901 census.  There is a MORSE family having chn in that era in Tasmania but not a Margaret.  Of course it is possible she changed her given name or her birth was not registered or she may have been older than her age on the 1901 census.  If I was researching this family I would be tempted to purchase a transcription of the marriage certificate if only to eliminate these persons from your research.  Cost AUD$20.  You can purchase online and the transcript is emailed to you.
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/bdm_fh.html 
Scroll to the bottom of the page for the details of three accredited transcription agents.

Info on NSW certs detailed here
http://www.jaunay.com/bdm.html

Cheers  :)
Cando
Title: Re: William Louis Leslie EVANS of Melbourne, c 1880
Post by: cando on Friday 09 August 13 02:12 BST (UK)
Quote
her mother was Margaret Evans, born in Tasmania in 1853.

Margaret EVANS was 43 years of age on the 1901 Census so born c1858.

Cando
Title: Re: William Louis Leslie EVANS of Melbourne, c 1880
Post by: Kate Walker on Friday 09 August 13 05:09 BST (UK)
Very useful, will send off for the transcript.
Title: Re: William Louis Leslie EVANS of Melbourne, c 1880
Post by: Kate Walker on Tuesday 17 December 13 14:59 GMT (UK)
Back again (having got sidetracked…) 

I've got a copy of the marriage certificate for William Louis Leslie Evans and Margaret Hannah Morse - and very many thanks to those of you who steered me in the right direction on this. It has a lot of blank spaces though - e.g., birthplace, ages, parents' details. Is this usual? Or have I got some abbreviated version of the certificate?
Title: Re: William Louis Leslie EVANS of Melbourne, c 1880
Post by: rosball on Tuesday 17 December 13 19:33 GMT (UK)
Hi Kate,
  Apparently the church did not send all info from marriage onto registrar for some historic NSW marriages.

  Here is some excellent advice from JM about how to track down the blanks - essentially to contact the church archives http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,546609.0.html

  cheers,
    Ros
(I followed JM's advice and was able to fill in the blanks for one of mine)
Title: Re: William Louis Leslie EVANS of Melbourne, c 1880
Post by: majm on Tuesday 17 December 13 21:39 GMT (UK)
Hi there,

Yes, it seems likely you have received "ALL" the information that the NSW BDM has on their summary copy of the marriage registration. 

Yes, Ros is spot on, ALL the information that the clergy recorded when interviewing the couple before marrying them is likely to be available in the Church Register.   It is simply a matter of determining where the register is currently held, or if it has already been transcribed and/or filmed  :)  :)  :)

Would you mind typing up the info on the document you have received, particularly the name of the clergy, the denomination, and the witnesses names.

Cheers,  JM
Title: Re: William Louis Leslie EVANS of Melbourne, c 1880
Post by: Kate Walker on Wednesday 18 December 13 03:07 GMT (UK)
Thank you to you both for replying - I'm so glad that I didn't give up. JM, your earlier post is fascinating.

The marriage certificate is no. 1875/001722. The marriage was on 8th September 1875 at the Church of England Corowa. The officiating minister was J C Sabine and the witnesses are J H Martin and M Dowling; the bride and groom were Margaret Hannah Morse, spinster, dressmaker, living in Corowa, and William Louis Leslie Evans, bachelor, painter, living in Corowa.

Many thanks again
Kate 
Title: Re: William Louis Leslie EVANS of Melbourne, c 1880
Post by: majm on Wednesday 18 December 13 23:51 GMT (UK)
NSW Electoral Roll 1878 THE HUME
William L L EVANS, residence Corowa
John H MARTIN, residence, Corowa
NO ONE surnamed DOWLING at Corowa on this roll, but …. If M Dowling was perhaps a female, then consider if these males may be of interest: Thomas DOWLING residence Greg Greg and Patrick Joseph DOWLING residence Huon 
NO ONE surnamed MORSE

Re The Church Register, most likely it is actually with the Diocese Archives, and of course at this time of the year, the volunteer Archivists are involved in Advent celebrations within their own parish.

http://www.anglicanriverina.com/?D=5 Corowa is within the Riverina Diocese.
http://www.anglicanriverina.com/

But if you were send an email enquiry to the Corowa Church
http://www.stjohnsanglicanchurchcorowa.websyte.com.au/

So, you may need to be patient, but do offer to provide your copy of the NSW BDM document (either the official transcription or the real deal cert), as it will help them to find their records.  You may need to offer a donation as searching for these registers can be time consuming.     You need to ask them for the details from more than one register, likely TWO registers for C of E

Fingers crossed,

I seem to remember an RChat thread where there were some located at Riverina TAFE.    So perhaps you could check there too…. Yes, St Peters, Broken Hill …. Same Diocese as Corowa  so worth the try
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=638774.0 

Of course, there’s also the following project that the Sydney Diocese is involved in, so perhaps the Riverina may be part of it too. 
http://www.sydneyanglicanarchives.com.au/
http://www.archives.anglican.asn.au/index.php/p2/family_history
“The Sydney Diocean Archives is NOT funded to provide a family history research sercice, and it is not possible to visit the Sydney Diocean Archives to view the registers……. We are currently preparing for a mass digitisation project with Ancestry.com which will provide even wider public access to the information contained in our baptism, confirmation, banns, marriage and burial registers. “

There’s also details about the Joint Copy Project with SAG and SLNSW at the Sydney Diocese so it is worthwhile asking at Diocese levels about where particular parish’ registers are currently located.   

Cheers,  JM
Title: Re: William Louis Leslie EVANS of Melbourne, c 1880
Post by: judb on Thursday 19 December 13 02:46 GMT (UK)
Just as an aside the fact that he was in Corowa in 1875 puts him closer to Tungamah as there was good river transport on the Murray from Corowa to Yarrawonga then 24.5 km (about 15 miles) by road although I think there was a track which would be quicker.  Not very helpful but at least in the same general area.   :D

This marriage is a good reminder that the registration town may be many miles from the location of an event, especially here in Oz.

Judith
Title: Re: William Louis Leslie EVANS of Melbourne, c 1880
Post by: majm on Thursday 19 December 13 03:14 GMT (UK)
Exactly so, Judith.

And, the NSW BDM districts do not have to match up to the Municipalities either.    And it was the clergy's responsibility to register the marriages. So sometimes in these rural districts he (yes, 19th C NSW, definitely "he") would complete the paperwork very promptly, and then go to the nearest court house and lodge the paperwork there.  So, sometimes it was transposed from the clergy's summary record across to the court house ledger and then at the end of the quarter the CPS, or the Sherrif or their shared part time clerk, would (hopefully !) check the ledgers to see what needed to re-transposed and sent through to HQ (the NSW Registrar General) at the NSW Lands Office where the Reg General's staff handled BDM and title deeds and Deed Polls and etc etc etc....

Cheers,  JM

 
Title: Re: William Louis Leslie EVANS of Melbourne, c 1880
Post by: Kate Walker on Friday 24 January 14 12:33 GMT (UK)
Very many thanks to you for your replies - as a result of which I now have a copy of the original registers, showing parentage for my GGM and GGF, as well as completely different ages from those in the transcripts. The Riverina archives are at Charles Sturt University, and the archivist was tremendously helpful. Great advice - thank you again.
Title: Re: William Louis Leslie EVANS of Melbourne, c 1880
Post by: FionaHistory on Thursday 12 August 21 09:54 BST (UK)
Hello Kate,
My question is about Elspeth. A friend has come across a composer by the name of Eugene Blore who composed some music in Australia in the 1920s. I was wondering if Elspeth is possibly the composer of this music. Do you know?