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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: smeghead on Monday 13 June 05 22:50 BST (UK)
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CAN ANYONE TELL ME WHICH ARMY UNIFORM MY GR GR GRANFATHER IS WEARING WHICH REGIMENT ETC
JIM
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I don't know Jim, but somebody on here will ... I just had to comment and say what a wonderful photograph .....
Su
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THANKS SUE.
I HAVE A COLLECTION OF PHOTOS LIKE THESE BUT DO NOT KNOW WHO THEY ARE OF THEY BELONGED TO MY GREAT GRANDMOTHER WHO DIED IN 1977 AND WERE FOUND IN MY GRANDMOTHERS ATTIC UNFORTUNALLY I SHOULD HAVE STARTED MY FAMILY TREE WHEN MY GRANDMOTHER WAS ALIVE ALTHOUGH I DID HAVE A GO AT IT IN 1988 BUT NO INTERNET THEN ALL RESEARCH HAD TO BE DONE AT SOMERSET HOUSE AND STOPPED AFTERGOING TO SOMERSET HOUSE TWICE
JIM
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Jim,
Here are a few thoughts to start with. The uniform is (I think) infantry of the line, full dress, about 1870 or 1880. It should be worn with a belt (see the belt support under the right arm and the marks on the tunic.)
The chevrons at the top of the sleve mark him as a sergent; the crown above as a staff Sergent. The crossed flags probably mean that he was part of the Regimental Colour Party (ie the flag with the battlehonours) so was probably known as a Colour Sergeant. This is further supported by the sash, another indicator of a Senior NCO in a Colour Party.
The jacket is roughly the same colour as the sash, so it is most likely a red / scarlet colour; the trousers are a darker hue, so probably dark blue. This with the uniform arrangement of the seven buttons on the tunic / jacket would normally indicate "infantry of the line". It is unlikely that he is in a support Corp (ie Engineers or Artillery).
The Crossed rifles at the cuff usually indicate that the soldier is a marksman of some kind. The crossed flags above the chevron have the cross of St George, so this is an English Regiment (ie not Scots, Irish or Welsh). The collar and cuffs are a light colour, which can indicate a regiment such as the Buffs ro the Grenadier Guards, but this is not a statement that this is the regiment!
Any chance of a close-up of the buttons, the collar or epaulet insignia?
Rod
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Hi Jim,
I agree with Rod's fine analysis -- but not with his date. From the lady's costume, I think this is more like 1890.
It occurs to me that this may well be your great grandmother's parents -- as you say it was among her possessions kept by your grandmother. They very likely show in the 1881, 1891 and 1901 Censuses.
It should be comparatively easy to work backwards, from your own parents and grandparents names, to find out .
What a super picture. What a fine looking couple. What a breed they were in those days.
PERCY
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MY GR GR GRANDMOTHER WAS IRISH A JULIA CRONIN MY GR GR GRANFATHER MET HER WHILE STATIONED IN IRELAND DO NOT KNOW HIS FIRST NAME BUT SURNAME WAS TAYLOR MY GR GRANDMOTHER HAD SAID HE WAS IN A WELSH REGIMENT BUT GOING BY THE UNFORM LOOKS LIKE A ENGLISH UNIFORM.
JIM
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I will go with 1890, but the dress seems a bit fussy for the late 1890s.
The Regiment may not be English, but it may be welsh; or a half and half unit. Have a look at the 24th Foot, South Wales Borderer's, for example (who before 1881 were the 2nd Warickshires)
http://www.regiments.org/regiments/uk/inf/024SWB.htm
If he was a Colour Sergeant around 1890, it should be easy for the Regimental Association or Museum to trace him. Try getting in contact with them for some more advise.
Good luck with the search
Rod
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I HAVE NOW DONE A LITTLE BIT OF RESEARCH AND THINK HE WAS A MEMBER OF THE WELSH BORDERS I HAVE SPOKEN TO MY MUM WHO SAID THAT HIS REGIMENT WAS INVOLVED AT ROUKES RIFF IN THE ZULU WARS BUT HE WAS TO YOUNG FOR THIS IN 1881 TO 1889 THE FIRST BATTALION WERE STATIONED AT VARIOUS POINTS AROUND IRELAND WHERE MY GR GR GRANDMOTHER CAME FROM WHICH I BELEVE TO BE CORK
MANY THANKS FOR EVERYONES HELP
JIM
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Rod's date may be reasonably close but so is the idea of 1890. You will see that the dress has no sign of the puffed up sleeves called "leg of mutton" and those were almost universal in 1890 and huge by 1895, disappearing in 1907 or so. At the same time one can see the dress skirt has a small bustle. But 1870 would be too early as the bustles were still large. My best guess would be exactly at Victoria's Diamond Jubilee in 1887. ::)
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hello folks,the man is a col/sgt in the infantry,the crossed flags of st george means his regt has white facings to their uniforms,bedfords,leicesters,northants,york+lancs,are four of those regts,manmack
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The South Wales Borderers, who were prominent at Rorke's Drift, also has white facings at about that time. They changed to light green facings after about 1890. I would not have a clue as to whether they would wear crossed flags of St. George though - assuming that we are looking at such. 8)
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Hackstaple, as so often seems to have got it right.
If the Regiment was in Ireland untill 1889 --- and the lady was Irish --- then this MAY well be their Wedding photograph ; and very likely bang on Hackstaple's date of 1887.
PERCY
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Percy - thanks for the compliment but my ears are burning and I am blushing as I write. 8)
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If this is the wedding photograph my gr grandmother i think was born between 1883 and 1885 but do not know this for certain when she was still alive she was always uncertain about her exact age
jim
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If you have the husband's name , try looking for them in the 1891 UK Census -- with a young daughter.
Percy.
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I put the photo through photoshop to try and pick some more of the detail out, especially on the shoulder. I inverted the image and what appears to be a number 17 is on the shoulder which would indicate that this man could have been in the British 17th Regiment which became the Leicestershire regiment in 1881. But then above that is what appears to be the badge of a Fusilier regiment, so he could also have belonged to a battalion of a Fusilier regiment.
(http://img278.echo.cx/img278/6226/174ij.jpg)
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I put the photo through photoshop to try and pick some more of the detail out, especially on the shoulder. I inverted the image and what appears to be a number 17 is on the shoulder which would indicate that this man could have been in the British 17th Regiment which became the Leicestershire regiment in 1881. But then above that is what appears to be the badge of a Fusilier regiment, so he could also have belonged to a battalion of a Fusilier regiment. Suppose he could also be a Royal Engineer who also wore the grenade emblem on their epaulets. Hmmm.
(http://img278.echo.cx/img278/6226/174ij.jpg)
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Sudsone,
I don't think they used numbers after the Cardwell reforms of 1881 in this way, but I might be wrong!
The "17" could be a set of Prince of Wales feathers. Look at the crossed stalks just visable below the "numbers" and then look at the "feathers"; can you make out one left and right, with the top of the "7" turned as the top of the third feather.
If that is the case and it is a grenade above it could this be the Royal Welsh Fusiliers? But they had blue colars and cuffs!
Just a thought
Rod
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i have emailed the royal regiment of wales museum with a copy of the pic and everything i know hopefully i will get an answer meanwhile thank you every one for your help if any more info comes i would be grateful.
jim
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With the amalgamations of 1881 facing colours were simplified. Royal regiments - royal blue; English and Welsh regiments - white; Scottish - yellow; Irish - green. Following some resistance by regiments who had longstanding facing colours with traditions behind them, over time many of these regiments regained their old facings. 'Jam-pot' cuff seen in the photo was introduced in 1881. There being also resistance to this, one later modification was to the sergeant's cuff to which a crowsfoot or knot was added. (Carman 'British Military Uniforms'p142). Thus the photo is later than 1881.
However, shoulder titles were used by other ranks for the first time on the khaki drill uniforms in India in 1885. 'Home service and other forms of dress at first had the title of the regiment stitched into the shoulder strap.' (Westlake 'Collecting Metal Shoulder Titles' p1). I think theres a good chnace that work on the photo with something like Photoshop might resolve this title to SWB. There are also collar-dogs present but I don't have information on these.
The flag of St. George seems to make no difference since their is a clear picture of an SWB man with identical badging in Regiment magazine #43 p 40 of which the caption claims it dates to 1885. However in that picture the knot referred to above is absent form the cuff so it would seem the SWB's fight to have this addition didn't succeed until after that date.
The regiments website places the 1st Battalion in Ireland as follows:
*26 September 1883 - September 1885 Kilkenny, Ireland (detachments at Killarney, Waterford and Duncannon)
September 1885 - October 1886 Curragh Camp, Ireland
October 1886 - September 1887 Birr, Ireland
September 1887 - December 1889 Dublin, Ireland, (in camp Phoenix Park August - October 1889), Balls Bridge, November 1889*
I would say therefore that your man is a SWB and the photograph dates 1885-1890.
You will find some helpful information on further research at the Royal Regiment of Wales (24th/41st) Museum website
http://www.rrw.org.uk/ They will probably be willing to identify the uniform fully if you send a scan to them.
But you will need to establish his first name to get anywhere. Also you may not have any luck with the 1881/91 censuses since these were not preserved for Ireland which is where they were quite probably living on these census dates.
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First apologies. I'm new to the mechanics of the board and have only now discovered page 2; thus the redundandancy of some of my earlier remarks.
I wonder though SudsOne if you could take a look at the collar-dogs in the same way and see what you come up with. Since the right one is practically face on you might have less distortion.
Meanwhile I have looked through all of Westlake's illustrations and find that the form where the number would appear in the position you suggest doesn't appear anywhere. The nearest candidates for your hypothesis are Lancashire Fusiliers (grenade/LF) and Irish Fusiliers (grenade/IF). In the case of the 17th Leicesters, the lower part of the emblem in every case is a half ellipse LEICESTER, LEIC, or LEICESTERS.
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I have had a reply back from the welsh borders museum and the curate after looking at the picture dose not think my Gr Gr grandfather was a welsh border. I have tryed to enlarge his collar but still can not see it very well I am still hoping to get a reply from army historian uniform specialist
Jim
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Does he say why he thinks not and does he suggest any other possibilities?
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he thinks he is a welch fuselier
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The problem is that as someone mentioned earlier the facings of the Royal Welsh Fusiliers at this time were blue. This is listed in Carman and indeed all the Royal Fusilier regiments such as the R. Dublin Fus., R. Munster Fus., R. Irish Fus., R. Inniskillen Fus.,(all of which which you'd expect to have green);R. Fus., R. Scots Fus. have blue. In contrast, the Lancs Fus., and the Northumberland Fus. have white facings since they do not have the Royal designation. So I believe the curator may be mistaken in this case.
The other problem is that there is no association between the R. Welsh Fus. and the Zulu War.
I think what you could best do is the work back through getting the marriage and birth certificates of this line. You are almost bound to find some indication of the regiment on his marriage certificate.
You could also try asking for identification through the British Regiments mailing list. This list contains some of the very best, if not the very best, experts on British Regiments. You can find details of how to subscribe at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/britregiments/
or you can send an email with an empty subject line and only the word subscribe in the message part.
I'm sure we'd all be interested in the results of whichever avenue you pursue. It's completely maddening not to pin one of these down.
Kitzmiller shows the R. Welsh Fus, in Ireland in 1883 and 1888 only but doesn't say where.
BTW is there any indication on the phot of the studio address, any pencil markings etc?
Best of luck.
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Oops!
"or you can send an email with an empty subject line and only the word subscribe in the message part."
Forget the address to sebd the email which is:
britregiments-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
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99% certain, Colour Sergeant 17th Regiment of Foot (Then) The Royal Leicestershire Regiment, (Now) The Royal Anglian Regiment, Quite possibly around 1881. The crowns on his uniform (Badges) are Queens Crowns, in this case Victoria. The crossed rifles with the crown above indicates Master (Musketry) at Arms. Hope this helps.
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thanks i think i may have been going the wrong way with the welch fusseliers but or regiment. Still not heard from a army uniform historian i emailled
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Jim
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I would like thank everyone so far for their help on identifing uniform i will let you know when i discover answer,
Cheers Jim
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Hi
Got a reply from army uniform expert reads as follows he is ac/sgt and therefore an experienced career soldier he appears to have the collar badges of a fusilier regiment though we can rule out any royal regiments eg royal welsh because of the white collar &cuffs may be a 7 on his shoulder strap which could make him a 27th Inniskilling Fusilier whose depot was of course Ireland but no more to go on
Jim
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Should be C/SGT
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The 27th Foot became the 1st. Bn. Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers with the 1881 reorganisation. As a Royal regiment, they adopted blue facings. Therefore if the photo is 1881 following, this outfit is ruled out. The 27th Foot itself had buff facings, but in a picture of a group of NCOs in Regiment magazine taken in 1879, and which includes a man of the same rank as your man, neither shoulder titles nor collar-dogs are to be seen. Besides, the shoulder titles of the Inninkillings were composed of the grenade with a curved INNISKILLING or variation of this.
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hello jim,sorry about draggin my feet on this one,this has only just surfaced,your gt gt g/father is a recruiting colour sergeant,the crossed st georges flags are those worn for this rank,that means hes local to whatever area hes living in,good hunting,mack
ps.the info came from a pal of mine,whos a regt sergeant major
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Thanks for tip will look into it
Jim
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Still puzzeling over this uniform
#
Jim
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THANKS SUE.
I HAVE A COLLECTION OF PHOTOS LIKE THESE BUT DO NOT KNOW WHO THEY ARE OF
JIM
why not post a few of the others? they may have the clues we look for
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Now over a year on since i tryed to identify army uniform still none the wiser anyone got any fresh information??????
Jim
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I finally have his first name Which is Charles Taylor occupation Color Sergeant. Can anyone tell me where I can find more information on his army career regiment etc now i have the first name
Jim
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I have found out that his wife and daughters lived in Belfast also that Charles died at around 1905 as my Gr Gr grandmother remarried in 1910
Jim
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I now think he was part of the warwickshire regiment for some reason he never got sent to Rourke's RIF perhaps because he was a color sergeant and was responsible for recruiting the picture I now put at an earlier date of 1880 and have zoomed the number which could be a 24 with a spinc above later they became the south wales borders I am now studying uniforms from the Zulu campaign and the sleeve looks very similar to a welsh borderer in the famous film
Jim
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At long last the puzzle has been solved I found Charles Taylor colr sergt 1st lancashire fussiliers in the 1891 scottish census in Lanarkshire at a military barrack it says he was born in England How can i now get his millary record which will give me more information do I have to go to kew or can i get it online ????
Jim
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Hi
Good to see you have found Charles' regiment. Eventually all the military records available will be online - an awful lot of the records were destroyed in WW2 bombing.
The first recent release of these are only for the initials A and B. However, the link below should explain things in more detail. Perhaps it will take a few years for all names to be searchable. ::)
http://content.ancestry.co.uk/iexec/?htx=List&dbid=1114&ti=5538&r=5538&o_xid=30351&o_lid=30351&offerid=0%3a7935%3a0
Anne
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At long last the puzzle has been solved I found Charles Taylor colr sergt 1st lancashire fussiliers in the 1891 scottish census in Lanarkshire at a military barrack it says he was born in England How can i now get his millary record which will give me more information do I have to go to kew or can i get it online ????
Jim
I’m sorry that I’ve only just seen this thread Jim, but I can confirm that he is a Colour Sergeant of the Lancashire Fusiliers, before 1881 the 20th Regiment of Foot. The shoulder strap badge was a grenade above the block letters LF. The Austrian cuff knot indicates that he was attached to one of the regiment’s Volunteer Battalions (VB) of Part-time citizen soldiers. The regimental depot was in Bury
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Surprising it's taken so long. Can only mean the experts (I'm not one of them) were not on RC back in 2006. As a new request today, you would have only had to wait until tomorrow, at most, for an ID.
There were 2 cavalry and 14 infantry regiments in Zulu War. There were supposed to be 5 columns attacking, maybe reduced to 4, from North, West and South. Indian Ocean to the East. The Zulu's were doomed.
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Thank you frogsmile