RootsChat.Com

Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: gene-genie on Monday 12 August 13 12:52 BST (UK)

Title: Wife's Occupation?
Post by: gene-genie on Monday 12 August 13 12:52 BST (UK)
1861 Census 'List of Persons not in Houses'
Hatfield, Hatfield Green, Hatfield Peverel

John Ridley head married  M22  1838   Mile End MDX  Occ: Musician
Selena Ridley wife  F20 1841  St Luke's MDX  Occ: ???

John was from a family of travelling showman. He is probably the musician for Alfred HILL (Showman) and His wife Ellen (dancer) who a listed before them on the census.
Title: Re: Wife's Occupation?
Post by: net64 on Monday 12 August 13 15:35 BST (UK)
Hi.Looks like "likesnap taker" to me :-\.Maybe something with taking people photos.Something to do with a circus maybe..
Title: Re: Wife's Occupation?
Post by: josey on Monday 12 August 13 16:04 BST (UK)
My guess is 'likeness taker' ie a sketch maker or perhaps even an impressionist.

Josey
Title: Re: Wife's Occupation?
Post by: stanmapstone on Monday 12 August 13 16:07 BST (UK)
My guess is 'likeness taker' ie a sketch maker or perhaps even an impressionist.

Josey

I agree, Likeness Taker. See  http://www.rootschat.com/links/0vos/
Title: Re: Wife's Occupation?
Post by: veeblevort on Monday 12 August 13 16:11 BST (UK)
Likeness taker. Probably sketched the customer for a fee.

vv.

Snap josey. Just got a red warning so you beat me to it.

And again, Stan.

The original is better if anyone wants a look - piece 1108 folio 47 page 29.

vv.
Title: Re: Wife's Occupation?
Post by: Fide et Fortitudine on Monday 12 August 13 16:13 BST (UK)
Hi gene-genie

Josey's suggestion sounds good to me: a 'likeness taker'. 

Could this be the same Ridley family in 1871 living at the fairground at Bethnal Green? 
http://members.shaw.ca/pauline777/1871.html
[scroll down to the bottom of the page, left hand column]

If Selena was 55 and retired in 1871, I doubt she was doing anything too strenuous in 1861. 
Title: Re: Wife's Occupation?
Post by: josey on Monday 12 August 13 16:25 BST (UK)
I think those are the entries for 1891
RG12 Piece: 342 Folio:   97 Page Number: 37.
Selina is aged 20 in 1861 & aged 55, still 'assisting husband' in 1891.

Josey
Title: Re: Wife's Occupation?
Post by: Fide et Fortitudine on Monday 12 August 13 16:55 BST (UK)
Well spotted, Josey.  I'll go with the official GRO data too.  Somebody should tell the http://members.shaw.ca/pauline777/TravellersUK.html website! 

It looks like the Brothers Ridley (John Ridley's father & family?) might have helped to train Charles Keith, the famous clown and circus owner. 

After a tour in Jersey with the Brothers Ridley, the clown left the troupe and Keith's first performance as a clown took place in 1859 during the Cowes Regatta on the Isle of  Wight, where Queen Victoria may have seen him perform.
http://www.vam.ac.uk/content/articles/v/victorian-circus/
Title: Re: Wife's Occupation?
Post by: Fide et Fortitudine on Monday 12 August 13 17:22 BST (UK)
Another mention here from the Circus Historical Society, Inc.

I must here remark that gymnastic and acrobatic 'brothers' seldom bear the relationship to each other which the designation conveys. Though it exists in some instances, as in the case of the Brothers Ridley...

Thomas Frost, Circus Life and Circus Celebrities, London: Chatto and Windus, 1881. (Chapter IX)

http://www.circushistory.org/Frost/Frost9.htm
Title: Re: Wife's Occupation?
Post by: gene-genie on Monday 12 August 13 18:18 BST (UK)
Thanks for all your suggestions.  'Likeness Taker'  may be an impressionist, but might it also be what we would call today 'a cartoonist'? 
Yes, that must be them in 1871 - a bit of a mystery still exists re Grace's mother, I thought her mother's name was Mary (I wonder if she is Grace b 1871, after all that is what her daughter is named??) and her father James Matthews - Grace was apparently born in Bristol in 1894, which means that Mary must have left the family business (unless James was a showman too).  However as in my post on Middlesex/Travelling People board, Grace Matthews b Bristol 1894 does appear as grand daughter with John and Selina Ridley....
In 1891 the Ridley family are in Fair Ground Red Cross St St Saviour Sothwark  Peice 342 Folio 97 Page 37, where Selina is 'assisting husband' in 1881 she is described as 'traveller, hawker'.
Their children are:
Thomas b 1861 Cavendish Suffolk,  John b 1867 Bethnal Green, William b 1870 Bethnal G, Grace (aka Mary?) b 1871 Bethnal G, Annetta 'Nettie' b 1880 Kingston, Emma Ridley b 1882 Windsor,Berks, Rhoda b 1886 Bethnal Green.
I will follow up on the Ridley Brothers Links....
Title: Re: Wife's Occupation?
Post by: Fide et Fortitudine on Monday 12 August 13 22:07 BST (UK)
I'm thinking more caricaturist than a cartoonist - a quick portrait sketcher. 

Census information can't be relied upon by itself - BMDs have to be cross-referenced.  Parents sometimes forgot their children's birth places and true ages, especially if they travelled a lot, or if they were illiterate, or if they had many children.  First names, middle names and nicknames were often interchanged on the censuses.  Widows might have reverted back to their maiden names, or remarried, etc.  Minefield! 

Two Ridley children christenings seem to conflict with the census data: 

THOMAS RIDLEY, christened 21/9/1862 at Doddington, Cambridgeshire [not Cavendish, Suffolk?]
Son of John Ridley & Selina Ridley
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NTGZ-531

LAURA ELIZABETH RIDLEY, christened 28/1/1869 at Tamworth, Staffordshire. Daughter of John Ridley & Selina Ridley. [This child should be with her parents on the 1871 and 1881 censuses, unless she died in infancy, or could this be "Grace"?]
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NB1T-WH2

I can see 2 possible Grace Matthews on the censuses, 10 years between them:

(1) 1901 Census at London / Middlesex (Wandsworth) - Grace Matthews, aged 7, born in Bristol, grand daughter to the head of house  https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/X9HT-KL5
[this one sounds like your Grace Matthews, born circa 1894 - so off the 1891 census]

(2) 1911 Census at Bridgwater, Somersetshire - Grace Matthews, aged 7, born in Bridgwater https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/X7RC-LH8
[this one b. abt. 1904 - prob. not directly related]

On the 1881 Census, I can see a 10-year old Grace Ridley, born Bethnal Green, although I can't find her christening around 1871 (unless she is Laura).  This definitely sounds like your Grace living in a caravan with her family: head, John Ridley (42), wife Se?na Ridley (39), siblings Thomas (19), John (14), William (11), Charlotte (5), and Nettie (1).  https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/X3LR-KTN

Emma and Rhoda were born later, according to the 1891 census.   

Dad not to be confused with the John Ridley married to a Mary, on the 1871 census at Marylebone.  Different children.  https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/VRJQ-ZF3

Grand daughter Grace Matthews, b. abt. 1894 must be the daughter of one of the older Ridley daughters and a Matthews man.  I think we can rule out Nettie, Emma and Rhoda, who would have been too young to have a baby in 1894, aged 13, 12, and 8, so that leaves Charlotte or Grace ... or the mysterious Laura. 









Title: Re: Wife's Occupation?
Post by: Fide et Fortitudine on Tuesday 13 August 13 00:26 BST (UK)
Hi again Genie, it looks like we can eliminate Laura Elizabeth Ridley, christened 1869, from your branch.  There are 2 John Ridleys married to 2 Selenas around the same time! 

Laura Elizabeth Ridley is the daughter of another John Ridley and Selina Ridley, both born in Warwickshire.  On the 1881 census, 13-year-old Laura is with her parents and older sisters, Minnie and Christiana, in Bedfordshire.  https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/X3N1-Z29

Therefore, can't possibly be the same John & Selina Ridley family in the caravan at Bethnal Green in 1881. https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/X3LR-KTN

This is good.  It leaves Charlotte or Grace. 
Title: Re: Wife's Occupation?
Post by: gene-genie on Tuesday 13 August 13 12:32 BST (UK)
Hi 'Fide'

Yes, I agree, BMD's have to be checked.  I'd come across the Suffolk/Cambridge entries for Thomas Ridley too, I suppose being travelling folk, he may have been born in Suffolk and baptised in Cambridge?

Yes, it seems Grace's mother was either Charlotte or Grace - The grand daughter Grace's middle initial was C  - (probably Charlotte), her parent's wedding certificate should clear that up.  I am confident the Bridgewater born Grace is not my line - the Dennings (Grace's grandmother, Louisa) were in Bristol back several generations, and while her husband James Grant's roots were in Middlesex, his Grant family had been in Cheltenham since the mid 19thC.  Thanks for your efforts.
Title: Re: Wife's Occupation?
Post by: Fide et Fortitudine on Tuesday 13 August 13 15:26 BST (UK)
Hi Genie

Yes, Thomas Ridley could have been born in Suffolk and baptised later in Cambridgeshire, or maybe the census is just wrong!   :-X

Charlotte Ridley, born in Bethnal Green circa 1876, on the 1891 census, aged 15, with her family at Southwark (Parish of St. Saviour).  https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/QM5H-K2M

I can see a possible birth record for her on FreeBMD:  b. June 1876, CHARLOTTE SELINA RIDLEY, at Bethnal Green.  Vol. 1c, page 285. 
http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/information.pl?cite=kjGag5MLS7PAzwzTNj0zDA&scan=1
The original birth register will confirm her parents.

Also on the 1881 census with the same family, aged 5.  https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/X3LR-KTN
i.e. not Ada Charlotte Ridley, stepdaughter of the Paternoster family in Marylebone, 1881. 

Can't see your Charlotte Ridley on the 1901 census, aged 25, so she must have been married by then.  Marriage of Charlotte, if any, is probably around 1894 or later (aged 18+).  There is a marriage of a Charlotte Ridley in March 1898 at St. Saviour Southwark (same parish as in 1891).  Vol. 1d, page 123.
http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/information.pl?cite=GGJnQRnoTaljLMTMBLsKIw&scan=1



Title: Re: Wife's Occupation?
Post by: gene-genie on Wednesday 14 August 13 12:03 BST (UK)
Thanks again :)!

I believe I have found a marriage:
FREEBMD

Charlotte RIDLEY to James MATTHEWS  March Q  1898 St Saviour Southwark 1D 123
It seems they had three children before they got married.

It seems James may have been a traveller too as in 1911 the family are in  Malt Shovel Meadow Victoria Road Bridgwater ,Somerset.Record states they'd been married for 13 years, so that would make the 1898 Southwark marriage right.

Confusingly, in 1901,  Charlotte Matthews is in a caravan in Taunton with her children Susan (1892) and Thomas (1893) but her husband's name is down as George Matthews not James.  He must have been James George or George James......I knew Grace C Matthews had a brother Thomas b 1 Feb 1893 baptised Sts Philip & Jacob Feb 19 1893 - this must be him.  Therefore, Charlotte Ridley must be Graces' mother. 
Title: Re: Wife's Occupation?
Post by: Fide et Fortitudine on Wednesday 14 August 13 17:30 BST (UK)
Bingo!   ;D

Well done, Genie! 
Title: COMPLETED With Thanks Re: Wife's Occupation?
Post by: gene-genie on Thursday 15 August 13 11:20 BST (UK)
Thanks to all who helped with this topic
Title: Re: Wife's Occupation?
Post by: Grace Matthews on Sunday 20 April 14 23:21 BST (UK)
Hi
I am new to this forum and have read with interest the thread for John and Selina Ridley.  They were my paternal great grandparents.  My grandfather, James Matthews married Mary Ridley.  They had 3 children - Susan, Thomas and Grace. Thomas was killed in France in Feb 1917.  Grace died of a heart condition when she was 9 years old.  John, Selina and Grace are all buried in Manor Park cemetery in London ( I have visited their graves).  Susan married Linwood Hill (showman).
Mary died when the children were young.  James then married Mary's sister, Charlotte Ridley who was my grandmother. I have copies of both wedding certificates.  James and Charlotte's children were: Mary Ann, Annette, Rhoda and my father James. Two sons, John and William died in infancy. James died in Dec 1916 when my father was 8 months old. My brother is also named James and I was named after my aunt Grace. My grandfather, James Matthews was a travelling photographer and I have a picture of his "booth".
If anyone has any more information on this family, I would be very pleased to hear from them.
Title: Re: Wife's Occupation?
Post by: Fide et Fortitudine on Monday 21 April 14 09:01 BST (UK)
Hi Grace, welcome to Rootschat!   ;D
It's great that you've shed light on this family tree.  Genie does say in reply #9 "I thought [Grace's] mother's name was Mary and her father James Matthews" so the 2 marriages of James to the 2 Ridley sisters explains it. 
I am not related to this family, I was just helping; but Genie might be related. 
Regards
Fide
Title: Re: Wife's Occupation?
Post by: youngtug on Monday 21 April 14 09:22 BST (UK)
I have seen "likeness taker and lantern man" used to describe a photographer.
Title: Re: Wife's Occupation?
Post by: Fide et Fortitudine on Monday 21 April 14 14:26 BST (UK)
Good point, Youngtug.  French Daguerreotype photography was commercially available circa 1839, but would an English travelling woman/circus wife in 1861 have had access to the equipment/technology?  (Re:  the first post by Genie)  Possible of course. 
Title: Re: Wife's Occupation?
Post by: youngtug on Monday 21 April 14 16:19 BST (UK)
http://www.cartedevisite.co.uk/photographers-category/biographies/frank-walton/

and;  http://www.open.edu/openlearn/history-the-arts/culture/visual-art/picturing-the-family/content-section-6.3
Title: Re: Wife's Occupation?
Post by: youngtug on Monday 21 April 14 23:55 BST (UK)
Quote
The ferrotype or tintype was a variation on the collodion positive process using black enamelled tinplate instead of glass. It became popular in the 1860s particularly with beach, fairground and street photographers who could prepare, expose and finish a picture on the black or brown tinplate in a few minutes. Specially designed cameras allowed all the chemical processes to be carried out inside the camera.
Title: Re: Wife's Occupation?
Post by: Fide et Fortitudine on Tuesday 22 April 14 06:14 BST (UK)
That's interesting.  Could well be then.

There's a parallel thread with more information on this family here:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=657254.0
Title: Re: Wife's Occupation?
Post by: majm on Tuesday 22 April 14 06:39 BST (UK)
Likeness-taker  ;D was an occupation familiar in the Antipodes too...


http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/77566877  Border Watch, 1 July 1882
 Well, in the 1880’s in the then British Colony of South Australia, one of the newspapers notes that in another of the then British Colonies, ie Victoria, that a Likeness-taker was a photographer, armed with the slide of an old telescope and then ummm …. I will let you all read about them ‘doing’ portraits and not returning them. …..
Then in another of the British Colonies (New South Wales) there was a photographer chap turning these popular ‘tin tags’  out by the dozen…. Here’s that link
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/136462627  Illawarra Mercury 4 Aug 1882

Lots of links actually via the Trove (National Library of Australia) free website... 
http://trove.nla.gov.au/


Cheers,  JM
Title: Re: Wife's Occupation?
Post by: youngtug on Tuesday 22 April 14 06:41 BST (UK)
Consider also reply #17 of this thread, by Grace Matthews, that her grandfather was a travelling photographer.
Title: Re: Wife's Occupation?
Post by: Fide et Fortitudine on Tuesday 22 April 14 07:02 BST (UK)
Indeed.  Also found this:
http://www.cartedevisite.co.uk/photographers-category/photographers/photographers-r/
Several Ridleys there, screen capture below.
Most of these Ridley photographers are not Londoners, according to http://www.victorianphotographers.co.uk/index.php?searchStr=Ridley&_a=viewCat&Submit=, but there's one WILLIAM Dobson Ridley in London EC (Eastern Central), which includes the borough of Tower Hamlets. (Bethnal Green, etc.)  Dates & address available for £1.20 on that paysite. 

Just wondering if that William D. Ridley might be the same William Ridley on the 1851 census, aged 20, "travelling showman's son", living with his parents and siblings in Whitechapel, Tower Hamlets - according to Genie's post on the parallel thread. 
Title: Ridley Family
Post by: Phillip N Rhoda Searle on Friday 13 January 17 22:31 GMT (UK)
I am the granddaughter of Rhoda Ridley,  my daughters are named Rhoda and Annetta after the two sisters.
As far as I know, there was Emma, Charlotte, Annetta, Rhoda, Jack, and Tom. Tom was never married and is buried with my Grandmother.  All were travelling showmen.  As I still am,  along with the rest of the family
Title: Re: Wife's Occupation?
Post by: Grace Matthews on Saturday 14 January 17 21:00 GMT (UK)
I am the granddaughter of Charlotte Ridley and James Matthews. My father was also named James Matthews.  My mother was a "flattie" but travelled for a short time with my father. We kept in touch with my aunts - Susie, Polly, Netta and Rhoda. They all married into show families (Hill, Proctor, Ravenscroft and Sedgwick). My parents split up but my mother still helped out the Ravenscrofts at local fairs. I remember operating a juvenile, pitch a penny, hook a duck and spinning candy floss with both hands by the time I was nine years old!  I have very little information about the Matthews family. I don't think they were showmen. I have found information regarding the Ridley family on the census.  I know my grandfather James Matthews married Mary Ann Ridley (mother of Susie, Tommy and Grace). Grace died when she was 9 years old.  Tommy was killed in the war 1917.  After she died, my grandfather married her sister Charlotte Ridley. My father was the only surviving male Matthews as two of his brothers died in infancy (William and John).  My grandfather died in 1916, the same year as my father was born.  Charlotte Ridley later married George Hodson.  She died in 1936 but is buried with James Matthews Snr at Arnos Vale in Bristol. Along with my two brothers, James and Colin, I have visited the graves of John and Selina Ridley and Grace Matthews in Manor Park cemetery in London. I am so pleased to hear from you!  I had no idea the Ridley family were still travelling.  Looking forward to hearing from you.  Kind regards Grace
Title: Re: Wife's Occupation?
Post by: Pinklady2708 on Friday 05 November 21 19:50 GMT (UK)
Phillip N Rhoda Searle I believe we are very distantly related.  My great, great grandad was John Ridley, son of John Ridley and Selina Manning and Rhoda's sister.  I'm impressed to hear that you are still travelling showmen and have often wondered if any of the Ridley's still were.  I would love to hear from you to share any information you may have please?