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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Shropshire => Topic started by: alfred412 on Tuesday 20 August 13 14:45 BST (UK)
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Hi there,
I've been trying to trace my family history as far back as I can, and have made it to a great great great grandfather, who was born in Shrewsbury, Shropshire around 1814 (according to 1841,'51,'61 censuses), and subsequently moved to what is now London, but in those days was Surrey. Lambeth and Camberwell. However I can't find any further information in Shropshire, so I can't find out who his parents were, to continue ploughing back through time.
I've searched all over Ancestry to no avail, I'm starting to wonder if he just lied to the census taker :) Are there any tricks to get the best out of Ancestry, or perhaps other sites that have more information for Shropshire?
His name is Charles Ellis, he married an Anne Hain, and had a few kids. Aside from seeing him on the aforementioned censuses, I also have the birth certificate of their son, Henry Ellis, born in 1842, which is how I know the mother's maiden name.
Any help anyone can give would be greatly appreciated. Is there any more information I can provide that might help?
Many thanks.
Al
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Hi, and a warm welcome to Rootschat.
I think you will need to look beyond Ancestry, once you get back to pre census and pre civil registration days.
I dont know if full Shropshire PRs are online anywhere, or if you need to go to theLocal Record Office to look through christenings for Shrewsbury and surrounding parishes for the 1814 christening.
Another site to try is www.familysearch.org
But at the end of the day, not all PRs are online.
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Have you dismissed this baptism on Family Search:
https://familysearch.org/search/record/results#count=20&query=%2Bgivenname%3Acharles~%20%2Bsurname%3Aellis~%20%2Brecord_country%3AEngland%20%2Bbirth_place%3Ashrewsbury~%20%2Bbirth_year%3A1809-1819~
i.e. Charles Ellis baptised 26 Feb 1815 s/o Benjamin & Sarah Ellis.
FreeBMD has Charles Ellis and Ann Hain on the same page for a marriage in Westminster Registration District in the December Quarter of 1839. Vol 1 Page 356 - you could send for the marriage certificate which will give you their father's details and help you to get back further.
Jill
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Why don't you purchase the marriage certificate for Charles Ellis and Anne Hain.
There's a marriage registered in Westminster district in the December quarter of 1839, volume 1, page 356. A marriage for an Ann Hain is registered too.
That would give you information about Charles's father.
;D
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too slow! :D
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Hi, :)
Wow, thanks everyone, that's great stuff.
I have ordered the marriage certificate you found, I guess that'll confirm whether he is the son of Benjamin. If he is I can see only one Benjamin Ellis' death certificate in Shropshire around that time, so I can order that and get Ben's parents info.
Also I saw this, https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/KD8Z-XD6, I hope that link works, but what's interesting is that it doesn't come up on Ancestry. Or am I doing something wrong? It shows Charles and family living quite happily in 1871, but since I hadn't seen it on my searches on Ancestry.com I had assumed that meant that Charles died sometime in the 1860s.
I guess it shows I have to be cautious and not assume things based on lack of evidence.
Thanks all, I have lots more to catch up on.
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I have ordered the marriage certificate you found, I guess that'll confirm whether he is the son of Benjamin. If he is I can see only one Benjamin Ellis' death certificate in Shropshire around that time, so I can order that and get Ben's parents info.
Sorry, but a death cert wont give names of parents
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Shucks. Still, it might give other useful information? I'll wait and see, but that familysearch.org website seems to have a lot more info, so I have plenty to do :)
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Hi again,
How reliable is that familysearch.org? It has a lot of information I can't find elsewhere, so I'm having a hard time verifying it with secondary sources. For instance, that Charles Ellis linked above, christened in 1815, father Benjamin, mother Sarah. If I do a search over a wider period for a Benjamin Ellis I find one born not far (or perhaps far in those days?) away in 1782. Assuming the census info of Charles' Birth is right, he was born 1812, only christened 3 years later, which would mean that Benjamin would be 30 at his birth, which is perfectly reasonable, but it's not conclusive. I can follow the whole thing back to 1577 just using the fathers name and picking one who would be of a reasonable age.
That's not really solid ground, or is it? For all I know Benjamin could have been born in Northumbria and moved to Shropshire to give birth to little Charles.
I guess what I'm really asking is, am I doing it all wrong?
Many thanks.
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Familyseach should really only be used as a guide, and things double checked by looking at original Parish Registers.
To be thorough in your research it will take a lot more than a few clicks of a mouse - it can take years and years, and will involve trawling through parish registers either in person at the relevant record offices, or by ordering the films to your local LDS centre from the familysearch site.
And often looking at siblings, wills, trade directories, etc to try and back up evidence. And to look at christenings, marriages and burials to piece it all together. There may be a chr of a Joe Bloggs who fits nicely with a man you find marrying and having a family 20 years later - but not if you then find his infant burial a few days later.
And remember familysearch is not complete - just because a Joe Bloggs of the right age comes up, doesnt mean it is the right one. The right one might not be on there at all.
But it is VERY useful as a starting place.
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and the Eliza Ellis who is a visitor in 1871 census you referred to born in everton Liverpool has to be a relative, maybe direct or by marriage, so that is a clue to follow up.
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Just to point out that it is not always easy, familysearch has an Eliza elliss (with two ss es) shown as living in Madeley Shropshire in the 1841 census, but I only found that by searching the name Elliss
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Okay thanks all :)
Is there a way of seeing a full list of Parish Registers online? Or even which are in the process of being digitized? Or do I have to go up and check the parish itself?
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Whoooo I think you are related to my wife's line :)
My wife's gt gt gt grandfather was Thomas Ellis (1806) brother of Charles (1815) and son of Benjamin and Sarah Ellis nee Hill. I know from Thomas's Will that Charles
was a verger at the Temple Church. Lothian road, London
Benjamin was married 31 Dec 1804. St Chad, Shrewsbury, Shropshire
Cheers
Beatle
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Hiya, that sounds possible. On Charles' death certificate his occupation is a tax inspector, and on his marriage certificate he's a 'conveyancer'. It's not inconceivable that a change of occupation from verger occurred, especially as Charles, and all his descendants up to the war (bomb damage destroyed the office), did live and work not far away from Temple Church, on Chancery Lane, which is pretty much opposite.
I have Benjamin's wife down as Sarah Briggs, but I have no idea why. I can't find anything that says as much. I think that Benjamin is the son of Benjamin and Jane Ellis, so if that tallies up with you then we might be on to something.
Did Thomas stay in Shropshire or did he also move to London?
Regards
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Hi alfred412
Thomas lived in Islington, London. I guess Thomas and Charles moved down sometime in the early 1830s. Thomas married in 1835 at St Andrew's Holborn, London and his first child Elizabeth Jane was baptised 1 Aug 1836, Islington. His first job was as a milkman but then as an under porter at the Inner Temple, Farringdon. Thomas died in 1866 and left a small Will. The Will states 'Charles his brother' My wife is decended via his daughter Sarah Ann Ellis.
The 1851 census shows Thomas and his mother Sarah together in Fetter Lane, she was 76. She must have moved down later perhaps when she became a widow. I haven't found Sarah as yet in the 1841 census.
Beatle
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Also....have you got Charles in the 1841 census? As there is one (a clerk aged 25) in the Inner Temple where Thomas was working/living. Seems too good to dimiss.
Beatle
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Hiya,
That's really interesting, builds up a nice picture of what they were doing. Since Charles in later life went on to be a tax assessor and conveyancer they both require (I would have thought) some formal training, the kind of thing a clerk would have, especially around that area, Temple, where you have the bars.
What is an under porter? I wonder what they were doing when they first moved down, and what prompted them to move.
I haven't found anything in the 1841 census. Can you show me the page?
It certainly seems logical that they are brothers.
Many thanks
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Here's Charles's 1841 census details
Charles Ellis
aged 24
abt 1817
Male
Civil Parish: Inner Temple
Registration District:Strand
Sub-registration District:St Clement Danes
Piece:729
Book:6
Folio:12
Page Number:5
Beatle
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Oh and occupation was Clerk! :D
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Bit of a long shot that you're still around and might catch this, but since I realised that on Charles' marriage certificate it's witnessed by Thomas Ellis that confirms everything said above, I was wondering if you might be able to share a bit more info on their parents, Benjamin and Sarah.
I can't find anything on ancestry.co.uk about Sarah Hill, or their wedding. Do you have the info?
Also, may I see Thomas's will?
Thanks