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Research in Other Countries => Canada => Topic started by: cimbrio on Tuesday 20 August 13 18:42 BST (UK)
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Hi all,
I hope someone out there can help me. I've never had to trace a relative's birth in Canada so I am not at all familiar with the availability of records there, but I'll give it a try.
I'm looking for information (specifically the date of birth) on James Arthur Smith, my grandmother's husband. He was born in 1915-1916 in Shellbrook, Saskatchewan. He later married at an unknown date to UK, where he married my grandmother, and where he died in 1943 in Hereford. I have his probate record but nothing about his date of birth.
All I know about his personal life is that he was the son of Arthur Smith (deceased by 1939), a cattle salesman, and that he had at least one brother. I don't know his mother's name or maiden name.
Can someone out there can look his date of birth for me please? I would be so grateful! Ancestry.co.uk doesn't seem to be able to provide me with any answers.
Thank you!
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Ancestry have the 1916 Canadian Census which covers 3 provinces (includes Sask.) but if James was born after it was taken it will likely be difficult to find his father (there are probably LOTS of Arthur Smiths).
How did James Arthur Smith arrive in the U.K.? might be some way through passenger lists to get more information. Ancestry have incoming U.K. lists 1890-1960 however, if he came over as a soldier he might not appear in a regular manifest.
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A few questions?
Was James Arthur in the military (Canadian or British) when he died in 1943. He does not show up as Canadian war dead.
If he married in Hereford, you should be able to get a copy of his marriage certificate using information from Free BMD. You can search for marriage and death information but will have to do a search for the site as I am typing mainly from memory. I did a quick search for his death in Hereford in 1943 and didn't find anything.
I have found 2 possible fathers for James Arthur Smith.
Using the WW1 Attestation Papers and after doing a search of the 1911 census of the Prairie Provinces
I think the first one is the one you are looking for.
1911 Census/Saskatchewan/Battleford/32 Township 46
Smith, Arthur, boarder, single, b. April 1890, England, age 21, immigrated 1910
methodist, laborer on a ranch
in the household of Seigel and Emma Ricketts
TW47 Range 11 West of the 3rd Meridian (this would be in the vicinity of Shellbrook)
Found the Attestation Papers for him
Arthur Smith
Reg. #886449
Shellbrook, Saskatchewan
b. 8 April 1891, Otley, Yorkshire, England
office clerk
Next of Kin - Eleanor Smith, wife
enlisted 9 March 1916, Prince Albert, Sask.
The second possibility is
1911 Manitoba/Marquette Township 13
Arthur Smith
b. May 1890, imm 1911, labourer
in the household of Water McFarland
Attestation Papers
Arthur Albert Smith
Reg #2115703
b. may 1, 1890 Tottenham, London
Enlisted Oct 11, 1917, Winnipeg
He was a member of the Royal Canadian Legion, Shellbrook #111 for 53 years and died Dec 13, 1972
So that means 2 different Arthur Smith's were born 1890/91 and lived in Shellbrook at some point.
I checked the 1916 census and wasn't able to find Arthur, Eleanor or James but the new site at LAC isn't as user friendly as Automated Genealogy where you can look at many different spellings of names/dates of birth/etc. At the LAC site you have to put in specific names/places and dates of birth to bring anything up.
I went to the new census information for 1921 at Ancestry.ca and I checked one district for North Battleford that showed Shellbrook but didn't find anything. You may be more successful with the 1921 once the pages are indexed by name.
Some sites that could be helpful in your search are
www.wapitilibrary.ca
www.shellbrook.net
Shellbrook Public Schools
110 1st St E
Shellbrook, SK S0J2E0
Shellbrook is a very small place so contacting the library may be a good option. They will have knowledge of cemeteries/newspapers, etc.
Births in Saskatchewan are subject to privacy laws and are only avialbe before 1913. As far as I can remember, marriages have not been transcribed as yet.
Hopefully, someone with more knowledge of Saskatchewan will pick up on this and be able to help you continue your research.
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www.freebmd.org.uk
you should be able to find the marriage at this site. I would use your grandmothers maiden name if it is less common than Smith to do the search.
There is a death in Sept qtr 1943 for a James A. Smith, Hereford, vol 6 page 519. You may find more information on the death registration than in probate records.
Did your grandmother and James A Smith have any children? If so, the name given to the child could be helpful in your search as children were often named for parents or siblings.
Good luck in your search.
Val
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Arthur Smith
Reg. #886449
Shellbrook, Saskatchewan
b. 8 April 1891, Otley, Yorkshire, England
Found this Arthur Smith listed at the Canadian Virtual War Memorial website as having died 28 Jun 1917. It say the following:
Son of Joseph and Sarah Smith, of Otley, Yorks; husband of Evelyn E. Smith, of Clifton Villa, Woodleigh Rd., Ledbury, Herefordshire, England.
The incoming UK passenger list database has a Mrs. Evelyn E. Smith (31) with son James A. Smith (1) returning to England on the Scandinavian which departed from Montreal and arrived in Liverpool on 21 Oct 1916. Their UK address was listed as Clifton Villa, Ledbury, Hereford.
Arthur Albert Smith
Reg #2115703
b. may 1, 1890 Tottenham, London
Enlisted Oct 11, 1917, Winnipeg
He was a member of the Royal Canadian Legion, Shellbrook #111 for 53 years and died Dec 13, 1972
There is a family tree at Ancestry that has this Arthur Albert Smith married to Elsie May Carr who was born in Ontario. There is a marriage for this couple in Toronto however Arthur's age is out (born about 1897) and the marriage occurred in 1926. There is a death for Elsie May Smith in 1972 in the Saskatchewan Residents Index in the same place as Arthur Albert Smith is listed (Canwood, Saskatchewan).
It would appear the first Arthur Smith listed does meet more of the criteria than the second, if the information in that family tree is correct.
Jacquie
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Thank you all for your replies. Here are the answers I can provide for the moment:
I do not know when or in what capacity did James Arthur Smith travel to the UK. I have an idea (unconfirmed) that one of his parents was British and the other Canadian. As both he and his brother and parents lived in Britain towards the end of his life, I can only presume they emigrated to England; i.e. he didn't go as a soldier during the war.
I have a copy of his marriage certificate, which took place in late December 1939 (aged 24 at the time, so born 1915), and his probate record states he died in Hereford on 3 September 1943. Neither of these documents provide a specific date of birth. His marriage certificate states his father was Arthur Smith, deceased, cattle salesman.
James Arthur Smith died in his late 20's during the Second World War, but his was a natural death (TB), not KIA. I am not aware he was actually part of the armed forces (whether British or Canadian for that matter), but I do know he was an engineer who worked on aeroplanes.
Another interesting fact is that James Arthur Smith was a Catholic. He had a Catholic wedding (despite the fact my grandmother was C. of E.) and as far as I know his family were also staunch Catholics.
He and my grandmother had two children, neither of whom have more than a vague memory of him. Neither of them know when he was born, but I'll have to ask them more questions, like what their grandmother's name was. My grandmother later had other children, but chose not to remarry.
The Arthur Smith, married to Evelyn/Eleanor, sounds promissing as he worked on a ranch. He was a Mathodist, but then again if it is him, he may have converted to Catholicism later, or else simply allowed his children (including James Arthur) to be brought up as Catholics. And I agree, the second Arthur Albert Smith does not look like our man's father, as he lived in Canada throughout his life and died there in 1972.
How exciting! I think it may be worth following this last trail...
Thank you all for your help & please let me know if you find anything new with the new information I have just posted.
Ancestry have the 1916 Canadian Census which covers 3 provinces (includes Sask.) but if James was born after it was taken it will likely be difficult to find his father (there are probably LOTS of Arthur Smiths).
How did James Arthur Smith arrive in the U.K.? might be some way through passenger lists to get more information. Ancestry have incoming U.K. lists 1890-1960 however, if he came over as a soldier he might not appear in a regular manifest.
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We will go with the assumption that Arthur Smith married to Evelyn/Eleanor is the correct one until it is either proven or ruled out.
Evelyn E. Smith, age 31 traveled with one son James A in 1916 to Ledbury, Herefordshire so that would mean that a second son would have been born in England and if Arthur died in June 1917 that would narrow down the timeline for a birth of the second son.
FreeBMD has births of 2 possible sons both in the March qtr of 1917.
Donald H. Smith with a mother with surname James in Ledbury.
John E. N. Smith with a mother with surname of Packer in Ledbury.
There is also a death of an Evelyn E. Smith, age 75, in 1961, Ledbury which would make her born about 1886. The Evelyn with son James was born about 1885 so this is probably the same person.
Depending on how much information you are trying to get on James Arthur, you could follow up on the above.
www.deathindexes.com/canada.html
You can access BMD info for the provinces in Canada through the above site. Information is added as the privacy laws allow. You may have to wait a few years but eventually James Arthur's birth will show up on the Saskatchewan site if his birth was registered.
I checked the 1916 census again for Evelyn/Eleanor Smith but didn't find anything. it is entirely possible that she was on the move towards England before the census took place.
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I have fresh and exciting news:
I dug out the marriage certificate for James Arthur and my grandmother. One of the witnesses is DH Smith (i.e. Donald H Smith, the groom's brother). Even more conclusively, the groom's residence in the UK is Clifton Villa! And look what I just found by Googling their mother's married name:
SMITH Mrs E E - Ledbury
The death occurred last Thursday week of Mrs E. E. SMITH, of Clifton Villa, Woodleigh Road, Ledbury. Aged 75 years. Mrs SMITH was a daughter of the late Mrs Hannah JAMES, of Ledbury. Requiem Mass was said at Holy Trinity Catholic Church on Easter Monday by Father BRISLAINE, of Bromyard, after which interment followed at Ledbury Cemetery. Family mourners were: Mr and Mrs D. SMITH, son and daughter-in-law; Miss V. MORGAN, adopted daughter; Mrs LAWRENCE, sister; Mr and Mrs W LEWIS, brother-in-law and sister; Colin, Peter, and Jill SMITH, grandchildren; Mr and Mrs E. PONTI, Mr and Mrs SYMONDS, Mr and Mrs A. MORGAN, Mr and Mrs R. O'BRIEN, Mr and MRS REYNOLDS, Mrs B. BUTLER, nephews and nieces; Mrs P. WILLIAMSON and Mr J. WILLIAMSON, cousins. Others present included: Mrs C. HOLLOWAY, Mr R. HAMPTON, Mr and Mrs RUFFINI, Mrs M. BADHAM, Mrs P. LUCAS, Mr M. MUSTAFIC, Mr G. BOTTONI, Miss B. O'BRIEN, Miss G. O'BRIEN. Apologies were sent by: Don, Dorothy, Alan, Peter and Jill; Val and Roger; Sybil, Emilio, Paul and Roy; Lill and Wall; Ness and family; Colin and Susan; Tony, Ian and family; Mor and Gray; Phyll and family; Snowie and family; Ciss; Louie and family; Bery, Jill, Glenys and Margaret; Nance, Mell, Pat and Roy; Mario and Ida; Anna, Nazif and children; Mrs HAMPTON; Mrs ALLEN and Phyliss; Mearle; J. and E. FLOYD; Miss HOPKINS; Sam, Eva, Dennis and Betty; Hannah BRACE; Guido, Orielle and children; All at East View; Gladys; Rose and Arthur; Mrs HARRIS, Joan Cliff and family.
Both my aunt and uncle are listed, as are my great-grandmother and her daughter Phyllis. This confirms that Evelyn E Smith (née James) was James Arthur's mother, and she died a widow in 1961 having lost her husband, a private of the Canadian Infantry in 1917 shortly after he moved back to England after enlisting.
This does not give us the date of birth of James Arthur, which I still think was in 1915, but I've sent an e-mail to Shellbrook Council, so let's see what they come up with. I'll also see if I can find anything new on Evelyn Eleanor James/Smith. I wonder if she was from Ledbury and that's why the family settled there as opposed to Arthur Smith's hometown in Yorkshire?
We will go with the assumption that Arthur Smith married to Evelyn/Eleanor is the correct one until it is either proven or ruled out.
Evelyn E. Smith, age 31 traveled with one son James A in 1916 to Ledbury, Herefordshire so that would mean that a second son would have been born in England and if Arthur died in June 1917 that would narrow down the timeline for a birth of the second son.
FreeBMD has births of 2 possible sons both in the March qtr of 1917.
Donald H. Smith with a mother with surname James in Ledbury.
John E. N. Smith with a mother with surname of Packer in Ledbury.
There is also a death of an Evelyn E. Smith, age 75, in 1961, Ledbury which would make her born about 1886. The Evelyn with son James was born about 1885 so this is probably the same person.
Depending on how much information you are trying to get on James Arthur, you could follow up on the above.
www.deathindexes.com/canada.html
You can access BMD info for the provinces in Canada through the above site. Information is added as the privacy laws allow. You may have to wait a few years but eventually James Arthur's birth will show up on the Saskatchewan site if his birth was registered.
I checked the 1916 census again for Evelyn/Eleanor Smith but didn't find anything. it is entirely possible that she was on the move towards England before the census took place.
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https://familysearch.org/search/image/index#uri=https://familysearch.org/records/collection/2001071/waypoints
FamilySearch does have Catholic parish records online but they are not indexed (I believe this is one of their current projects not yet completed). You can browse through the records and perhaps find a baptismal record.
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You have found a lot of info in a short period of time. Keep an eye on the vital stats for Saskatchewan as the birth may show up in a few years. Good luck,
You could check the 1911 Census of England and Wales at ancestry to see if you can find Evelyn/Eleanor and her parents on the census.
Val
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You can also check for baptism for James Arthur at Holy Trinity where Evelyn's funeral was held. Depending on where Arthur and Evelyn were actually living, the time of year that James was born and access to a local church could mean he may not have been baptized until returning to England.
The two churches on family search that would be closest to Shellbrook would be those in Prince Albert and Battleford.
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Here is another site to view for military information on Arthur Smith.
Saskatchewan War Memorial
www.svwm.ca
Just key in Smith in the search box he is about 3 or 4 on the list,
Lilybell
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Hey ladies and gents,
I was going to put my contributions in last night, but we had a power outage here to storm...
There are two Arthur Smiths on the Saskatchewan homestead records here: http://www.saskhomesteads.com (for meridian put in W3), it should be the ones that are either 48-50 on the list. Arthur Albert Smith farm is located nearer Shell Lake (a small community 15 minutes west of Shellbrook).
My grandparents retired to Shellbrook in 1967, both passed away between last year and this year, so I am a bit familiar with the area.
There may be a death notice in the local newspaper there (Shellbrook Chronicle), they are microfilmed at the archives on the university so could take a look if you have a firm date to look.
Jeff
P.S. Oh and if you need a close up look at the centeoph in Shellbrook, my mom lives up there so may be able to get you a better picture of it.
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You have found a lot of info in a short period of time. Keep an eye on the vital stats for Saskatchewan as the birth may show up in a few years. Good luck,
I wouldn't count on that anytime soon unfortunately. Currently births only go to 1908. I think it's been a few years since they last updated their database.
Jacquie
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The 1891 England census has a family headed by Benjamin and Hannah James that has an Ellen James born in Ledbury that is the right age. This Ellen appears to be on the 1901 England census as Ellen E. James, servant in the Jones household in Colwall (Piece 2470, Folio 61, Page 11).
The 1891 census has children for Benjamin and Hannah listed as Blanche (13), Frederick (12), Frank (10), Agnes (8 ), Ellen (6), Jack (4), Lilly (3) and Dora (1) (Piece 2052, Folio 25, Page 43). The 1901 England census adds more children - Benjamin (9), Gladys (7) and Harry (5) (Piece 2471, Folio 35, Page 22).
The Free BMD has a marriage in the 4th quarter of 1910 in Ledbury for Agnes M.L. James which also has a Herbert Lawrence/Laurence on the same page (vol 6a, page 1041). There is an Agnes Lawrence born Ledbury with a husband named Hubert in Birmingham, Warwickshire on the 1911 England census which matches with the obituary you found. Also Gladys James is with the couple on this census. There is a death in Ledbury in the 4th quarter of 1962 for Agnes M.L. Lawrence who was the right age to be this Agnes.
Jacquie
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Found another connection. There is a marriage for Edith Blanche James in Ledbury in the 2nd quarter of 1898 that has a Thomas William Stephens on the same page. The 1901 England census has Thomas, Blanche with daughter Violet (1) in Pontshill. Agnes James is also in the household.
In 1911, Blanche with sons William and Jack living in the household of her parents (Violet isn't with her).
Then there is an entry on the 1916 census for Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta which has Thomas (47), Edith (37), Violet (17), William (15), Jack (8 ) and Francis (3) in the district of North Battleford. I can't make out the name of the place they were living (Royiles? Rogiles?) but it was in the same subdistrict as Shellbrook. The census gives their immigration date as 1910 but that would be for Thomas. There is a passenger list for the Royal Edward which arrived in Halifax, Nova Scotia on 20 Mar 1912 which had Edith Stephens with Violet, William and Jack heading for Shellbrook. There are a number of public family trees at Ancestry which indicate she died in Shellbrook on 14 Sep 1929.
Jacquie
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Forgot to mention that you can order a copy of Arthur Smith's military file from Library and Archives Canada. Here's a link to his attestation papers:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0vu2/ (http://www.rootschat.com/links/0vu2/)
There is a link on that page that gives instructions on how to order a copy of the file online. The charge is per page but it isn't usually too expensive.
With respect to Arthur, the 1901 England census has a Joseph and Sarah Smith in Otley, Yorkshire with children May (18), Beatrice (16), Lily (15), Elias (13), Frank (11), Arthur (9) and
Flossie (7) (Piece 4063, Folio 95, Page 1). Joseph and Sarah are in Otley with three of their children on the 1911 England census (Piece 26013).
There is a passenger list for the Virginian which departed from Liverpool and arrived in Quebec on 1 Jul 1910 which has an 18 year old Arthur Smith who was destined for North Battleford, Saskatchewan. His occupation is listed as clerk which matches the attestation papers for Arthur. Here's a link to the image at Library and Archives Canada (line 13):
http://data2.collectionscanada.gc.ca/e/e143/e003563599.jpg (http://data2.collectionscanada.gc.ca/e/e143/e003563599.jpg)
Jacquie
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Jacquie the spelling for the place name on1916 census for Thomas Stephens is spelled Rozilee.
The name was changed to Shellbrook Oct 20,1923.Rozilee formed Jan 1,1913.
Lilybell
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Jacquie the spelling for the place name on1916 census for Thomas Stephens is spelled Rozilee.
The name was changed to Shellbrook Oct 20,1923.Rozilee formed Jan 1,1913.
Thanks. I think I found a mention of a granddaughter of William Stephens in a local family history book with that information:
http://www.ourroots.ca/page.aspx?id=579269&qryID=42212007-50be-4707-81a3-27b23b25b4cb (http://www.ourroots.ca/page.aspx?id=579269&qryID=42212007-50be-4707-81a3-27b23b25b4cb)
Jacquie
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Hello all,
Sorry I haven't given much sign of life lately.
Just to let you know I've got in touch with a relative of the Smith family and we have been comparing notes since. They didn't know Arthur had died during the war, so that's news for them too.
I wouldn't have mananged without your help, many thanks to you all.
If I hear from the library at Shellbrook (no news thus far) I'll post the news.
All the best!
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HI, THIS THREAD HAS BEEN INACTIVE FOR SOMETIME. WHEN THE WEDDING OF ARTHUR SMITH TO EVELYN ELEANOR JAMES WAS ANNOUNCED IN THE NEWSPAPER - LEDBURY REPORTER, ARTHUR IS QUOTED AS BEING THE ELDEST SON OF REV. JOSEPH SMITH OF HORNBY YORKSHIRE.
EVELYN AND ARTHUR'S SECOND SON IS NAMED DONALD HORNBY SMITH.