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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Suffolk => Topic started by: scatchardfamily on Friday 30 August 13 20:37 BST (UK)
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Dear all
I'm not exactly a beginner, but this particular problem is making me feel like one!
I have managed to trace, with a good level of certainty, my ancestry to an Elizabeth Gooch showing in the 1881 census at Brabling Green, Framlingham, and the 1871 census at Brundish. She is married to James James (in 1862), but I know her maiden name is Gooch from FreeBMD searching.
The problem is I cannot find out where Elizabeth Gooch comes from. I believe she is in the 1861 census in Hoxne Union Workhouse, but going back further than that I cannot say with a high level of certainty.
The problem is partly her birth year. I'll list the years it is stated for, with the deduced birth year:
1861 1840
1871 1835
1881 1835
1891 1836
1898 1833 (death)
So, it's a 7-year range according to the records: clearly some are wrong!
I would really welcome an opinion as to where she might be in the 1851 and 1841 censuses, and even a likely parish she was baptised in. If there is any luck, she is within FreeBMD range, but she is right on the cusp of registration so I might miss it.
I know I should order up the marriage certificate, and this will give a father and another date of birth. But in my experience one can often work these things out before ordering certificates.
Many thanks in advance!
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You should really order up the marriage certificate or one of the childrens birth certificates to make sure her maiden name was Gooch. If they didn`t marry until 1862 it is quite possible she could have been a widow.
Mo
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Yes I agree with Mo regarding the certificate.
Looking at the information, I thought at first that she was the daughter of Sarah who is in the workhouse with her.
However, then Sarah is with her father Samuel in 1851 and in 1841, there is an Elizabeth with a Samuel and Ann.
It is difficult to work out.
heywood
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hi don,t know if this is correct but here goes
1851 cen
john gooch 51 born 1800 brundish
anne gooch wife 43 1808 farmers wife stradbroke
mary gooch 16 1835
Elizabeth gooch 13 1838
john gooch 10 1841
Edward gooch 8 1843
all children born stradbroke
address brundish hall , brundish
1841 cen
john gooch 40 farmer
anne gooch 30
mary gooch 7
Elizabeth gooch 4
john gooch 1
address buttlesea green stradbroke
parish bpt
mary gooch born 8 jun 1837 bpt 22 feb 1838 fathers name john mums name anne
church all saints stradbroke
regards
trevor
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The childrens baptisms are on the Suffolk baptism index and they state Elizabeth was late Gooch. Even though she married Mr. James in 1862, the eldest son Thomas was born in 1859.
Census state Elizabeth was born in Metfield, but as others have said you need the marriage cert to see if Elizabeth was a widow.
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Thomas is in the workhouse as Thomas James Gooch :-\ but of course that could be his father's surname as a middle name or just a middle name.
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There is a partially coherent scene,with the odd caveat as follows:-
Samuel Gooch marries Sophia Kent in 1813
Sarah Gooch is baptised to this couple in 1815
Anne Gooch is baptised to this couple in 1820
The main problem is the 1841 census at Common,Metfield ref HO107 1026 13 21.
Sophia may die in 1821,but I don't know whether Samuel remarries an Ann(modified)
In 1851 Elizabeth appears as Betsy With Anna Fisk,who is nee Gooch(1820) ref HO107 1803 628 19.
Meanwhile Sarah(1815) is with her father Samuel as already posted,and is of an age to be Elizabeth's(unmarried)mother?
Regards
Roger
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There is a marriage of Samuel Gooch to Ann Taylor in South Elmham Saint James in 1827 and a christening of Elizabeth Gooch in this place in 1838 to Samuel and Anne.
Regards
Roger
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Dear all
Many thanks - that is so helpful.
The certificate came though the post today as follows:
Marriage took place Stradbroke Register Office 4 Aug 1862.
Spouses of "full age" - very helpful!
Bachelor and spinster.
James James a labourer.
Both resident Dennington.
James James no father stated.
Elizabeth Gooch - father is Samuel Gooch, labourer.
If anyone can propose Elizabeth's baptism from this and likely residence and birth/death dates for Samuel it would be much appreciated.
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The relevant census refs are
1841 1026 13 21 Common,Metfield
!851 1796 213 3 Thorough Fare,Metfield
Samuel dies in 1853,given as 1789-1853(Ann his second wife dies in 1842)
Elizabeth's christening as per my previous post
Regards
Roger
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If Elizabeth was born 1838, she should be on the GRO registers?
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Looking at all the ages for her on the various census records it is far more likely she was born before the introduction of Civil Registration in 1837 and it only became a finable offence not to register a child in 1875. Before this date it was up to the Registrars to seek the births out so to speak.
Mo
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The record is for a baptism in May 1838,the birth date is not given.As birth registration only started in Sept(?) 1837 it is possibly marginal anyway.
Regards
Roger
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Many thanks. Could you possibly supply the details from 1841 and 1851? Also, I presume the baptisms referred to above are the children of James James, on the Suffolk Baptism Register (another resource I don't have access to).
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1841
Saml Gooch 56 Suffolk
Ann Gooch 40 Suffolk
Elizabeth Gooch 4 Suffolk
1851
Sarah Gooch Unmarried 35 Schoolmistress receiving arsenal relief from parish Metfield,Suff.
Samuel Gooch Widower 63 Pauper(formerly Ag Lab) Weybread,Suffolk
Lydia Lines Lodger 30 Pauper Wingfield,Suffolk
(Sarah is described as head of the family and Samuel her father).
I found the baptism record for Elizabeth on FreeReg
Regards
Roger
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Hi,
In the Phillmores marriages book for Metfield there is this marriage;
18-2-1813 Samuel GOOCH & Sophia KENT of Cratfield
This ties in with Saml's age of 63 in the 1851 census
Alan
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The Wyard & Gooch family owned or tenanted Brundish Hall from 1618 until WW1.
They were linked by marriage to the Stebbing family of Monewden.
James Wyard Gooch went bankrupt in1785.
The Gooch family owned mines in Trengoff, Cornwall that failed due to flooding.
SRO holds a great deal of info as does Brundish church.
From the mid 19th century Edward Clutton was a tenant followed by Charles Read, both well known Suffolk land owners.
All who want additional information on the family spend a few pounds at the SRO and get the info you need!
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I am just returning to this most thorny area of my family...
Above, the marriage of Samuel Gooch to Sophia Kent is given as 18 Feb 1813 but no place given. Can anyone assist?
Also, Sophia is said to have died 1821 but what is the source?
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In the Phillmores marriages book for Metfield there is this marriage;
18-2-1813 Samuel GOOCH & Sophia KENT of Cratfield
This ties in with Saml's age of 63 in the 1851 census
Alan
Hello scatchardfamily,
The marriage evidently took place in Metfield.
Carol
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Thanks for that.
Somebody also refers to another marriage to another Ann. Am I to believe Samuel Gooch was married 3 times?
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Gooch (and Kent) are/were fairly common surnames in Suffolk!
5 Jun 1812 Ilketshall St Margaret Samuel GOOCH Ilketshall St Lawrence f Mary Ann LING
13 Oct 1761Syleham m Samuel GOOCH wdr f Ann RAINBIRD
You should be aware that the Sophia Kent who married Samuel in Metfield on the 18th February 1813 was recorded as being "of Cratfield" in the marriage register.
A Samuel & Sarah Gooch (nee Sparrow) had a son called Samuel in 1796
Samuel & Charlotte Gooch (nee Bonnett) had a son called Simon in 1847
John & Ann Gooch (nee Turrel?) had a son called Simon in July 1813 in Yoxford)
Simon Church Gooch was born to Simon Borret & Elizabeth Gooch (nee Church) in 1836 at Eye
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I should have mentioned that the above marriage was witnessed by Suesanna (?) Gooch & Thomas Eade and that Sophia "marked" in the marriage register.
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I would say that Samuel Gooch was only married twice:
(1) to Sophia Kent (of Cratfield) on 18/2/1813 Metfield, Suffolk
Children Thomas b.18/11/1813, bp.21/11/1813 Metfield
Sarah b.29/1/1815, bp.19/2/1815 ditto
Emma b.4/1/1817, bp.9/2/1817 ditto
Anna bp.2/7/1820 Mendham
Sophia bc.1794, bur.25/10/1821 Cratfield (NBI)
(2) to Ann Taylor 28/10/1827 South Elmham St. James, Suffolk
only known child Elizabeth bc.1836, bp.20/5/1838 South Elmham
(South Elmham may have been Ann's parish and Elizabeth may have well been born in Metfield
but taken back to her mothers parish to be baptised).
Ann Gooch bc.1797, bur.6/4/1842 (NBI)
Samuel Gooch bc.1789 (Weybread, Suffolk per census) bur.23/8/1853 Metfield (NBI)
Weybread baptisms do not appear to be available online.
Annette
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Annette - many thanks for that. But what of Samue's marriage to Ann Abblett? I believed that was at Weybread in 1826 and that she is the mother of my ancestory Elizabeth Gooch b. 1838.
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If it is accepted that Samuel's first wife Sophia(nee Kent) dies in 1821,it is Samuel' second marriage that is critical.
There are two options for a marriage to an Ann(e),one to Ann Ablett in 1826 at Weybread,one to Ann(e) Taylor in 1827 at Elmham St James.There is reasonable proximity of both of these to Metfield,so geography doesn't help.
However,if you go to the 1841 census as well as Samuel Gooch at Metfield there is one at Weybread,but not with a wife.There is a death record for an Ann Gooch at Weybread(1799-1835),who could be that Samuel's wife,but would obviously rule such a couple out as parents of Elizabeth(born circa 1838),and favour Ann Taylor as the mother.
Circumstantial only but can't see a better option at the moment.
Regards
Roger
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The Samuel Gooch baptised St Andrew, Weybread, Suffolk on the 21st March 1790 (born 23rd February 1790) was a son of Thomas & Drusilla Gooch (nee Benstead)
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The Samuel Gooch baptised St Andrew, Weybread, Suffolk on the 21st March 1790 (born 23rd February 1790) was a son of Thomas & Drusilla Gooch (nee Benstead)
What is your source, please?
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The Samuel Gooch baptised St Andrew, Weybread, Suffolk on the 21st March 1790 (born 23rd February 1790) was a son of Thomas & Drusilla Gooch (nee Benstead)
What is your source, please?
[/quote
I checked the register!
A Samuel Gooch (born c1788-1792) recorded on the 1841 census living at St Margaret Ilketshall, Suffolk had a wife Mary, also living with them were 5 younger people with the surname of GOOCH!
https://familysearch.org/search/record/results?count=20&query=%2Bgivenname%3Asamuel~%20%2Bsurname%3Agooch~%20%2Bbirth_place%3Asuffolk~%20%2Bbirth_year%3A1789-1793~
In February 1815 Samuel & Sophia Gooch (nee Kent) had a daughter baptised called Sarah.
In 1851 a Sarah Gooch (born 1815) was living with a Samuel Gooch (born Weybread 1788) in Metfield.
In 1861 this Sarah was recorded as a Cook at Hoxne Union Workhouse, Stradbroke.
In 1841 there was another Samuel Gooch (same birth date) living with Elisha & Ann Norman in Weybread
The family lines of the Samuel Gooch & Ann Ablett can be found at https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/2:2:3CHL-NX1
This information (plus more) was gleaned from the Family Search LDS web site.
May I suggest that you try this site for yourself, you never know what else you will discover?
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CAUTION: That's MY tree in there, complete with mistakes or at least assumptions before this discussion got going!