RootsChat.Com
Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Donegal => Topic started by: tumbleweed on Saturday 31 August 13 04:52 BST (UK)
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I have two different ages on my g/grandfathers Donegal death record. Twenty years in difference. Can anyone explain how this can happen ? Where would the mistake occur in other words ?
This is probably something so obvious but somehow I am not getting it and I would love to know the correct age.
I got the info. from a friend and I think she got it from familysearch.
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Have you actually seen the DC?
How could it have his age on it twice?
are you sure one isn't a marriage date?
What jurisdiction does it come under?
Dawn M
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They are sent from a friend who looked them up for me. There are two separate copies of the records. In one he is 90 at death and the other he is 70. These are not the original records. He died in Tullydish. Buncrana.
My g/grandfather is a mystery all round. He died in 1884. He left four little children and the youngest was just about 2yrs old. My g/father was fours years old ...so I sure he was not likely to be 90. Thanks for replying so swiftly Dawn.
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Could it not be whoever entered it for familysearch could n't read whether it was a 7 or a 9. Also could it be 2 different people. It'll probably need death the certificate ordering or a copy of the burial entry in the parish records . Probably need to contact the record office in the area where the death was registered and explain the situation so they can check the entry. You'll be expected to buy the cert and to pay up front. Do you know the source of familysearch's records, probably parish records. Also has he got a gravestone with a useful inscription.
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There will only be 1 age on the certificate (unless a correction was made on the actual certificate) but the most likely explanation (without knowing more details) is that the indexer wasn't sure of the numbers so did 2 entries under each age just to be sure.
The LDS database has the Irish civil registration index which is probably the source of this information. They would have very few, if any, church records for that period and as well as that most churches do not keep burial records.
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If you are RC they used to give different ages, my late grandma was age 6years younger when she died. And on the census of 1911 she was about 8years older. They would not conform to English telling them what to do.
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People of all religions struggled when asked details in census since many people, especially older ones, often didn't have a clue as to the year and date of thir birth. It's not at all unusual to find someone having 5 or even 10 years plus or minus their actual age.
Also, ages on death certificates (and headstones) can give a different age- just depends on the informant (or instructions given to the monumental mason).
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Hi:)
I'm the friend that gave Wee Mamie the death info.
I purchased one record off Rootsireland.....it was a transcription of the Civil Death Record and it said the age at death was 90 years.
I also looked on the IGI ...it said age 70.
I double checked this on Ancestry and of course they had the same info as the IGI records.
mab
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I have also purchased records from Rootsireland where the original document has been mistranscribed.
I spent years looking for my Donegal great grandmother based on her name on the marriage transcript provided by Rootsireland
It was years later that someone looked at the original and realised they had mistranscribed her maiden name.
When I located my family on the 1901 and 1911 census of Ireland, none of them aged by 10yrs in the period.
My ggg grandfather was age 75 on the 1901 census.
He died in 1904 aged 72yrs!
He had 5 children, of which I found 4, all married by 1901.
There are no birth records for them and I can only guess at their order of births based on their ages at time of death!
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I have a lot of Irish relatives that were pretty creative with their ages on the Irish census records.....specially women:) For this reason I don't rely on that info too much.
I have one person who is 35 in 1901 and 50 in 1911. He was actually born in 1853 so he really is about 58 in 1911. I often think that he fibbed about his age as he had married a younger second wife. To make it more confusing he is reported twice in the 1911 census...once in his own home at age 50 and once in the home of his son where his age is correctly given as 58. His son knew his correct age then ::)
mab
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Thanks mab and others who replied. So I know it is more likely he was 70 than 90. His wife remarried a man 10 yrs younger than her the next time round !! I found them in the census and her age was recorded correctly or close enough.
I would like to have got a more accurate age for him ( James) as he has died and left a mystery behind. His age would have been a good clue that would help figure out his story.
According to family he eloped with my g/grandmother a Catholic young lady from Monreagh who was in service to his family in Co. Tyrone and his Protestant father ( a bishop) disowned him.
The oldest living relative believes that it was not the father who was the bishop but James himself.
According to the marriage record his father was a farmer and so was he ..but he may not have wanted the fact he or his dad was a Presbyterian bishop to be known. Now he was living in Buncrana and I guess he wanted a new life there ..??
No one knows where he is buried and his children never really knew him as they were too young when he died. The one who reported his death was his wife's brother.
Thanks everyone and if anyone has suggestions I would love to hear them but I feel he died with most of his past hidden.
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Well, I can certainly dispell part of the family myth- there are no bishops in the Presbyterian Church. If he was Church of Ireland, then there are records of clergy (as with Presbyterian ministers).
If you haven't already a thread about him post the details here and we'll take a look...
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Sorry maybe not the right denomination ..but could be any ..all we heard was a Protestant bishop. I wondered about Methodist .
I did send a post before in on him and his family and got a reply from someone who put me in touch with a second cousin in Buncrana. That line of the family heard the same as our line. Nothing new to add.
James Henderson married Mary Anne McLaughlin in 1876. They lived in Tullydish and had four children. Sarah Jane / James / William John ( my g/da) / Hugh
He gave his father's name as Joseph ( farmer) and her father was James ( farmer)
The family are certain he came from Co.Tyrone and an old ( living) neighbour who grew up next to our family farm in Fahan heard the same story and said too it was Tyrone and Mary Anne went into service there at his home. She heard they eloped and he was disowned..hardly though if he was 62 then ! Brings a picture in my mind of an ancient old Joseph hounding them away with his cane LOL
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Your earlier thread doesn't give much detail-
www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=634910.msg4823963#msg4823963
Exactly when and where did the marriage take place? is James listed as single or widower?
James' supposed age doesn't make much sense- if he was in his 60s when 'eloping' then his father was probably well into his 80s. Also, a farmer would have been unlikely to elope and leave his farm.
To start with a few facts-
Two of the children-
Sarah Jane born 7 May 1877 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FG8B-Z4F
William John born 10 Dec.1880 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FPTH-TM7
family in 1901 & 1911 census- Philip McCallion, wife Mary Ann, stepson Hugh:
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Donegal/Buncranna/Tullydish_Upper/1181335
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Donegal/Buncrana/Tullydush_Upper/491554
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On the civil marriage record here are the details.
James Henderson and Mary Ann McLaughlin were married in May 29 1976. He is listed as living in Tullydish and she is from Monreagh. They resided in Tullydish after marriage.
Parish : Burt.
He is listed as batchelor and she as spinster and no age recorded.
James is listed as farmer.
His father is Joseph Henderson - farmer. Mary Anne's father is James McLaughlin - farmer.
Thanks for the details on the children. I already have these and where they lived and who they married.
I also have the details on Mary Anne's second marriage to Phillip McCallion. They had a good marriage it seems and a son.
Now if I can figure out more about James as I want to separate fact from fiction if possible.
I am now considering that perhaps he himself was the 'bishop' ...and gave up the cloth to marry..and left his county and changed his religion.
What comes out of it is not if he was or not I just would love to know the truth.
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Exactly when and where did the marriage take place?
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All I know is what I sent from the Civil marriage record. Date of marriage May 1876. Parish or district Burt. Co Donegal.
Can you explain what you mean..as this is all I have. There is no church record that I have found.
Thanks for trying to help I appreciate that.
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The marriage either had to take place in a church or a registry office- who is the officiant (a minister or registrar)
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I have no church record or registers only what I sent.
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As the children were baptised Catholic then the parents were married in the Catholic Church.
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I have no church record or registers only what I sent.
You have a marriage record- the marriage has to have taken place somewhere- so where on earth did you get the record ???
As the children were baptised Catholic then the parents were married in the Catholic Church.
Does the record give the name of the Catholic church and the priest who performed the ceremony then?
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My grandfather was baptised in Buncrana and the priest was Fr. J Kearney.
This was in 1880 and I assume his siblings were also baptised there and his parents were married there too. Would be St Mary parish I would think.
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I think you might be missing the point here. You have a marriage record (from the details you have managed to post already I suspect it is a civil record rather than a church record) and the marriage either took place in a Registry Office or a church- it will say on the certificate where it took place as well as the name of the person who performed the ceremony (either Registrar or clergyman). Where the children were baptised does not have to be at the same place- but if the marriage took place at St. Mary's then it will say so. Was Father Kearney the person who signed the marriage certificate?
Mixed marriages often took place in a Registry Office but again it will indicate this on the marriage certificate.
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I believe Wee Mamie only has the details that I gave her from a civil marriage record from Rootsireland. On those records it just gives very basic info and there is no indication if the marriage was in a registry but presumably so....nor does it tell who officiates.
If it is a Church Marriage the record does indicate this. It gives you the denomination but not the church. Occasionally it will have a note about who performed the marriage.
mab
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Thanks, mab. I did ask earlier in the thread where the record came from ::)
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Thanks for the help mab ...and aghadowey. Guess I am not much good in this researching stuff :(
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Does that mean mab that the marriage may have been held in a registers office and was not in the church ? For the children to be baptised Catholic then the parents had to be married later in the church so..where would one get the church record after all this time ?
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As far as I know, at that time, both parties would have to have been Catholic for the marriage to take place in a Catholic church but baptism is a separate matter- one parent needed to be Catholic. In more recent times the non-Catholic parent had to promose that any children of the marriage had to be raised as Catholic but not sure that rule dates back to 1800s.
It's even possible that the children were baptised in their father's religion and that the mother had them baptised in the catholic church after his death.
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Does that mean mab that the marriage may have been held in a registers office and was not in the church ? For the children to be baptised Catholic then the parents had to be married later in the church so..where would one get the church record after all this time ?
A Civil Marriage is always done in a registry office or it's equivalent.
I always assumed that James and Mary Ann didn't marry in a church because of the difference in religion....hence a civil marriage. You could write to the parish church in Burt...I can't recall the name at the moment.
mab
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The marriage between James Henderson and Mary Anne M’Laughlin was registered in the civil records in Londonderry, 1876 Volume 7, page 193. If you order a copy of that certificate, either from GRONI in Belfast or GRO Roscommon, you will find out exactly where the marriage took place and who officiated.
James Henderson’s death in 1884 is registered in Inishowen Apr – Jun 1884, volume 2, page 99, with the age recorded as 70 on familysearch. Again, if you order a copy of that certificate you will be able to judge for yourself whether there is any confusion over the age. (Which was simply the informant’s best guess).
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Thanks for that info. Elwyn ! I will have to do that . I can check online for the parish church in Burt mab if there is a need to be in touch with them.
I hope one source tells me his age and place of birth but probably not.
Thanks to you too Aghadowey !
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Marriage records on civil certificates do not list birthplace and age is likely to be record as 'full age' unless under 21 years. Haven't come across an Irish church record yet that records birthplace either.
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Well, I can certainly dispell part of the family myth- there are no bishops in the Presbyterian Church. If he was Church of Ireland, then there are records of clergy (as with Presbyterian ministers).
I was interested in the records of clergy that you mentioned. Are they available online?
I wonder if there are any Hendersons listed in the time period Wee Mamie is investigating.
mab
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The only protestant denomination in Ireland that has an Episcopal structure (bishops etc) that I am aware of is the Church of Ireland. Current Rectors, Vicars, Bishops etc are listed in Crockfords Clerical directory but the current version – which is on-line- would not contain details of someone ordained in the 1800s.
To research that you would need a paper copy from the 1800s (PRONI in Belfast have some, but I do not know for what years.). Alternatively you could try e-mailing the Representative Church Body in Dublin to see if they can assist:
http://ireland.anglican.org/
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Thanks Elwny :)
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Records on rootsireland have been transcribed - marriage records do not have place of marriage - only the district that the marriage was registered in. They do not state if named father is deceased (this information is sometimes on the original). Death records (and some marriage records) do not state status of person i.e. widowed, married or single. All useful information to genealogists. Best to get original record from Letterkenny or Roscommon.