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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Angus (Forfarshire) => Topic started by: Westy11 on Monday 02 September 13 13:21 BST (UK)
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Hi
Here's hoping someone may be able to assist. I am looking for the parents of Richard Hugh Jones.
Richard Hugh Jones died in Australia 18 May 1893; he was about 47 years of age. Based on a few birth transcripts for his children and his marriage certificate I have been able to piece together the following information:
Possibly born 08 Mar 1846 [a birthday book noted this date]
Born in Drumkilbo, Forfarshire, Scotland[extracted from 3 birth certificates]
He married Alice Maud Bowen Sanderson in 1877 in country New South Wales, Australia
His occupation was sheep overseer
I located a Richard S Jones, Annuitant in Newton of Panbride Angus in the 1851 census. There was a Richard H Jones aged 4 years and his sister Margaret and brother Hugh W.
My ancestor Richard Hugh called one of his sons William Hugh so there may be a connection there. In this census the father Richard S Jones gives his birth about 1824 England; Richard S wife was Margaret aged about 1826 born in Kettins, Forfarshire.
However I think to progress this I need to find a marriage record/parish record that may indicate Richard S parents and location other than England .
Hoping someone will be able to assist me with this marriage - it may well be the census record I located has no relationship whatsoever and only time will tell.
Kind regards
Mxmar0
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Hi,
This is a possibility.
Richard Hugh jones born 08/03/1847 & baptised 22/03/1847 at Meigle, Perth, Scotland
Parents Richard Jackson Jones & Margaret Watson
Hugh Watson Jones born 30/04/1849 & baptised 04/07/1849 ay Panbridge Angus, Scotland
Parents Richard Jackson Jones & Margaret Watson
Richard Jackson Jones married Margaret Watson on 8/06/1846 Kettins,Angus,Scotland
Sharon
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Other children for RJJ & Margaret were
Margaret born 10/03/1848 Meigle, Perth
Mary Devereux Jones born 28/01/1854 Panbridge, Angus
Sharon
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There is also this marriage
Richard Jackson Jones to Margaret Watson on 07/06/1846, Meigle, Perth
Sharon
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Hugh Watson Jones 42 bachelor (exchange broker) married Annie Elizabeth Crichton 29 spinster on 23/05/1891 at Guys Hospital London.
Parents were Richard Jackson Jones (gentleman) & John Crichtson (gemtleman)
Witnesses were Henry Latley, Margaret Jones, William Alfred Baker, Robert Burton ?
He died in hospital 2 days later.
Sharon
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A possiblity for RJJ.
Richard Jackson Jones born 02.05/1823 & baptised 25/06/1823 at St Mary, Edge Hill, Liverpool.
Parents Richard Jackson Jones (solicitor) & Anne Jones
Richard Jackson Jones (gentleman) married Anne Christian on 23/05/1822 St Mary, Walton on the Hill, Lancashire
Witnesses were George William, M. Christian, Sarah Davies & Elizabeth Campbell
Richard Jackson jones was buried on 8/09/1827, St Mary, Lancaster, Lancashire aged 30.
Sharon
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Richard Jackson Jones (mother's maiden name Christian) died 1855, Barry Angus
This record is on Scotlands people www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk
Sharon
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Not sure if you have located Richard and his siblings in future census but if not could be interesting to look into entries for:
1861
Richard and Hugh, scholars at a school at Woodvillas, Peebles
Ann and Mary, boarding with the Watson family, Keillor Farm House, Kettins
and not sure but Margaret could be at Sydenham College for Ladies, Lewisham
1871
Margaret, Ann and Mary living with their Aunts, the Watsons, York Place, Edinburgh
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The recurrence of the name 'Hugh' is likely for Margaret's father, Hugh Watson ...
Dundee Courier 23 June 1846
'Married at Keillor ... by the Very Rev Dean Horsley ... Richard J Jones Esq, Drumkilbo to Margaret, eldest daughter of Hugh Watson Esq, Keillor
Looks as if Margaret died in May 1854
'At Keillor, on the 18th instant, Mrs RJ Jones, eldest daughter of Hugh Watson Esq'
http://www.happyhaggis.co.uk/1854.htm
45 page will for Hugh Watson (who died in 1865) via SP ... might be worth reading! Ref: SC49/31/81
An obit: http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2507&dat=19651111&id=DmxAAAAAIBAJ&sjid=gaMMAAAAIBAJ&pg=5747,1818406
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Hello Sharon01 and Gali
Whilst we were sleeping here in Australia you have accomplished much and I am so appreciative. I will follow the leads you have provided and let you know the outcomes.
Do you have access to any immigration records that may provide the vital link between these records and travel to Australia???
Kindest regards
Mxmar0
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I'll have a look into his emigration ... anything to tie him to Aus pre-1877 wedding?
From Angus MIs, Newtyle
church vault
'Hugh Watson for 55y tent Keillor b. Bannatyne 4.10.1787 d. the Den Perth 10.11.1865, w Margt Rose 7.3.1805 1.11.1866; Hugh Watson was one of the founders of the famous Aberdeen Angus breed of cattle'
'Richard Jackson Jones, w Margt 18.5.1854 (da of Hugh Watson)
cemetary
'Geo Watson esq Bannatyne House, w Jean Rose sole heiress of ancient families of Moray and Kinnaird of Culbin; 'all who knew her loved her''
I think further research would show George Watson was father of Hugh.
Also found some potential links between Hugh Watson and Australia which may be of interest:
a son? James Watson, detailed below (although Hugh and Margaret Rose married in 1824 so if he is a son it's a son from a different marriage)
http://www.flemingtonheritage.org.au/people/james-watson/
and another son, Patrick Watson, several trees for him on A/try, married in QLD in 1876, died in QLD 1883
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Hello Gali
Thanks for the 'bumper crop' of info; it almost leaves me breathless the amount you have located! As to pre 1877 records in Australia - no nothing as yet although I don't stop searching - many Richard Jones but as yet no Richard Hugh Jones - just hope he didn't drop the Hugh!
Have just thought that just maybe I wont make it to bed tonight!
Thanks so much
M
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Hello again Gali
Having difficulty in locating Jean Rose Watson; I have a FindMyPast sub but no luck in nespapers! Any ideas???
M ???
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Will look into it properly tonight but in the mean time these links might be fruitful:
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/WATSON/2003-04/1050489902
http://www.kinnaird.net/family01.htm
By the way, just to say if it were me I'd definitely be purchasing Hugh Watson's will from Scotland's People ... might mention descendants in Aus and help to date which country Richard Hugh Jones was living in 1865 ...
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OPRs have George Watson married Jean Rose, daughter of Hugh Rose, July 1753, Edinburgh
(edit to correct year to 1753 ... not 1853 as had first written)
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Must get off the computer now!
But before I go, worth looking into an article in Dundee Courier on britishnewspaperarchive April 1897 mentions Jean Rose and George Watson as being grandparents to Hugh Watson ... and has Jean 'a penniless lass wi' a lang pedigree!'
Also this: http://www.kinnaird.net/kinstory.htm
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I am looking for the parents of Richard Hugh Jones.
Richard Hugh Jones died in Australia 18 May 1893; he was about 47 years of age. Based on a few birth transcripts for his children and his marriage certificate I have been able to piece together the following information:
Possibly born 08 Mar 1846 [a birthday book noted this date]
Born in Drumkilbo, Forfarshire, Scotland[extracted from 3 birth certificates]
He married Alice Maud Bowen Sanderson in 1877 in country New South Wales, Australia
His occupation was sheep overseer
May I please comment :)
;D May I presume that your Richard H Jones death was registered at Moree NSW and that this certificate does NOT give you details about his parentage? (NSW BDM #9426)
;D May I also presume that you know that your chap married Alice Maud Bowen Sanderson and that you have the NSW BDM certificate #2667, listed as registered in the Coonabrabran district of NSW.
And thus as you are unsure of his parents details, may I presume that there are several blanks on that NSW BDM issued marriage certificate? May I please assure you that the "missing information" was recorded locally but simply put, it is not on the NSW BDM records at the moment.
If there are blanks, perhaps I can help you along a tad, as the elusive blanks on that NSW BDM certificate are NOT a brickwall…..
;D ;D Here’s a thread I did up re the hurdles and how to overcome them….
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=546609.0
May I also ask if you have accessed the Intestate Estate Case Papers held by the NSW State Records Office for a Richard Hugh JONES, a drover, who died in 1893 in the Redbank district, near Moree.
http://srwww.records.nsw.gov.au/indexes/searchform.aspx?id=53
ADD
The NSW BDM marriage certificates ought to give you the following information
date and place of marriage ceremony
Bridegroom's full name, his occupation, his usual place of residence, his conjugal status, his place and date of birth, his current age, his father's name and occupation and mother's maiden name and possibly any other former names, AND often a notation as to any parent known to be deceased.
Bride's full name, his occupation, her usual place of residence, her conjugal status, her place and date of birth, her current age, her father's name and occupation and mother's maiden name and possibly any former names and if deceased
Celebrant's name and denomination and if either bride or groom was not yet 21 years of age, then the name and relationship for the person giving consent to the marriage.
and the names of the two witnesses
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/bdm_fh/bdm_rec.html (there's also mention of the blanks on their 1856-1895 marriage records "Some Registry marriage records from these years recorded only the details pertaining to the parties to the marriage. Details of the parents had been left blank although they appeared in the Church registers. ....... The Registry's records from these years are not complete and it can be worthwhile for genealogists to contact the relevant church to find details missing from a marriage certificate"
Cheers, JM
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Hello JM
You assume perfectly - yes to everything - however I was able to glean a few more details from the Richard & Alice children's births.
I checked out your posts and that is simply fantastic because we are currently facing a few such hurdles! Will put into practice what you have said.
As to Richard's inquest papers - yes I was lucky enough to find them.
JM - it is people like you and Gali that makes this so fantastic - I do hope I too will be able to give back so generously
:) :) :)
Kind regards
Mxmar0
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As to Richard's inquest papers - yes I was lucky enough to find them.
No, No. No. ;D I am referring not to the Inquest, but to the NSW Supreme Court's file for the Intestate papers .... the administration of the deceased estate in the absence of a valid will .... :) :) :) :) do you have these .... and if so, who handled the administration, and does the file have any further info about Richard Hugh JONES .... the Deceased Estate files can often be "this" thick .... some can be several 'packets' .... and in some instances, contain BDM certificates submitted to the NSW Supreme Court for proof of a relationship to the deceased.... :) There are some instances where the files are only a couple of slips of paper, but often the files are truly the delightful source of valid family history details.
If you do NOT have the Intestate File, then you could pop a request on the Australian Board and ask for one of the several very kind RChatters who may be going to Kingswood (outer western suburb of Sydney NSW) to perhaps photograph the file for you when they are next out there.
PS I added more info to my post :-X while you were posting some kind words :-[ :-[
Cheers, JM
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I have looked at the Index for the NSW Coroners’ Inquests and notice that Richard H JONES is listed there as “About 40” and that it was not known where he was born. This suggests to me that he was away from home, working when he became ill, and that none of those travelling with him knew much about his origins…. So perhaps no one heard an accent in his voice…. His possessions at the time of death (from Heart Disease) were recorded as “Ł3.10.0 in cash, 1 bay horse, saddle and bridle, Waterbury watch & chain, Wearing apparel and a sheep dog” These are all items I would expect a drover to own. He died 18 May 1893 at Redbank, near Moree, and the inquest was held 23rd May. The NSW Govt Gazette’s Annual returns for Inquests (20 Feb 1894, No. 109) notes the Value of the Property possessed by the Deceased as “About Ł12”
Cheers, JM (I will be back at my home by Friday, so I will have a better look then)
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Hello JM
Apologies as I wrote the incorrect word - should have said intestate papers but was rushing to get the dinner on - I purchased what they had and unfortunately there wasn't any information about Richard's family or his background.
There was some info between his wife and her father as they attempted to obtain Richard's effects which was interesting. He was droving at the time of his death and I am assuming he must have had the heart attack or similar away from home and as you point out no one knew who he was. He left a young family.
I will go back to your other post and save that as it really is very helpful! You must have been at this for a while.
I appreciate your input and it is great to have someone as experienced as you on the hunt as well! :)
Kindest regards
Mxmar0
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I'll have a look into his emigration ... anything to tie him to Aus pre-1877 wedding?
From Angus MIs, Newtyle
church vault
'Hugh Watson for 55y tent Keillor b. Bannatyne 4.10.1787 d. the Den Perth 10.11.1865, w Margt Rose 7.3.1805 1.11.1866; Hugh Watson was one of the founders of the famous Aberdeen Angus breed of cattle'
'Richard Jackson Jones, w Margt 18.5.1854 (da of Hugh Watson)
cemetary
'Geo Watson esq Bannatyne House, w Jean Rose sole heiress of ancient families of Moray and Kinnaird of Culbin; 'all who knew her loved her''
I think further research would show George Watson was father of Hugh.
Also found some potential links between Hugh Watson and Australia which may be of interest:
a son? James Watson, detailed below (although Hugh and Margaret Rose married in 1824 so if he is a son it's a son from a different marriage)
http://www.flemingtonheritage.org.au/people/james-watson/
and another son, Patrick Watson, several trees for him on A/try, married in QLD in 1876, died in QLD 1883
Hello Gali
Is there any date for "'Geo Watson esq Bannatyne House, w Jean Rose sole heiress of ancient families of Moray and Kinnaird of Culbin; 'all who knew her loved her''"
I am also interested in the name Rose for two marriages one being a marriage to George Watson - Jean Rose & Hugh Watson - Margaret Rose - I am wondering if these might be 2 brothers marrying from the same family ergo wondering about the dates.
Also does the date referred to in the following apply to Richard or Margaret and is it a date of death or burial or neither? "'Richard Jackson Jones, w Margt 18.5.1854 (da of Hugh Watson)"
Thanks once again
Mxmar0
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Have just found that George Watson & Jean Rose were Hugh Watson grandparents; now I just have to find who Hugh Watson's parents were then I will be able to link them!!!! ;D
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The MI information is from 'Angus Monumental Inscriptions pre 1855' ed Alison Mitchell, as far as I know not yet digitised or available online but can be bought from Tay Valley Family History Society online shop.
http://www.tayvalleyfhs.org.uk/
The edition covering Newtyle Cemetary is 'volume 1 Strathmore'
George Watson, husband of Jean Rose died in 1813
This is mentioned in 'Epitaphs and Inscriptions', ed Andrew Jervise a version of which is available online:
http://archive.org/stream/epitaphsinscript00jerv/epitaphsinscript00jerv_djvu.txt
The date in the information about Richard (Jackson Jones) and Margaret (Rose) I think is her date of death
Yes, I wondered about the 'Rose' surname appearing twice, well worth investigating
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Just reading back and realised that you might not know that you can download death certificates for deaths in Scotland registered from 1855 onwards via Scotland's People website on a pay per view basis. These death certificates should give you parents names so you should be able to find out more info from the death certificates of Richard Jackson Jones who died in 1855, Hugh Watson who died in 1865 and Margaret Rose Watson who died in 1866. Hope that helps.
I also realised that in the book of Newtyle MIs, amongst the other 'Watsons' buried in the church vault (and the entry immediately below that of Richard Jackson Jones and Margaret Watson) there is a 'Wm Watson d Auchtertyre 3.12.1830 71, w Janet Wilkie 2.5.1835 81' (the dates immediately after the names are the date of deaths, the figures 71 and 81 are the ages at the time of their deaths). Likely candidates for Hugh's parents?
Also, I found a drawing of Hugh Watson, you'll need to scroll down to the sixth page of this book:
http://www.electricscotland.com/agriculture/fieldfernnorth.pdf
Finally, a biography of Hugh Watson, written by one of his daughters, an interesting read!
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=BzLOAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA477&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=4#v=onepage&q&f=false
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Hello Gali
Thank you so very much for such superb finds and the photo of Hugh is just beautiful! I read the story written by one of his daughters and it was superb!
I will continue to follow the leads you have so kindly provided and will purchase some records as you have identified.
Kind regards
Mxmar0
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And here is a bit more on the Jones family:
19 June 1846 Liverpool Mercury
'Friday last Richard J. Jones, Esq,, Drumkilbo, Perthshire, grandson of the late Richard Jones, Esq., Rodney-street, to Miss Watson'
1 Jan 1840 Blackburn Standard
'at Lower Bebington, Cheshire, aged 82, Richard Jones, late of Rodney St, Liverpool, of Demerara'
7 Feb 1834 Liverpool Mercury
'Mr John Bally, iron-merchant, to Mary Ann, youngest daughter of Richard Jones, Esq., Rodney-street, Liverpool'
Found 1851 census entry (HO107/ 2175/752 p 20) in Tranmere for John Bally and wife Mary born 1801 Demerara, living with their children and her mother, Mary Jones, born 1771 Longdon, Worcester and sister Elizabeth born 1800 Barbados.
And 1841 census entry (HO107/125/3/ 9 p 13 Bebington Cheshire in Bebington, Cheshire for Mary Jones, born 1776 with Elizabeth again and also with the young Richard aged 15 plus two fo the Bally children.
LDS/IGI Index has
England, Cheshire, Marriage Bonds and Allegations, 1606-1900
Richard Jones, aged 21, Widower and Mary Devereux, aged 21, Spinster
22 Dec 1796
Plus
Mary Devereux, born 9 Sept 1770, Longdon by Upton on Severn, father Joseph Devereux, mother Ann
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Hello Gali
Once again great finds and now I know when & where the name Devereux comes into the family. In addition the marriage of Mary Ann to John Bally Iron Merchant is very interesting because it creates a link to another line so once again Bali - many thanks
I have continued searching for the migration of Richard Hugh Jones to Australia and as yet no success however the book your referenced had some interesting information into steam ships and departure ports so I am now looking to see if he may have boarded from there
Kind regards
Mxmar0
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Hi, sorry hope this works, just new. Was conducting searches in conjunction with my research on my family history. Patrick Watson my 2nd Great Grandfather, (Birth abt 1845 in Kettins, Forfarshire, Death 09 MAY 1883 in Qld). His father Hugh Watson. The newspapers reported that Patrick fell off his horse (he was a famous cattleman (like Hugh I guess)) in Far North QLD. But my father (Allan Watson), has his death certificate, says DT's. So he probably died from bad rum. But they wouldn't report that.
Thanks for the info I've been finding pretty hard to get above Hugh (Patrick's father), my 3rd Grandfather and his father George, my 4th GF. This info confirms by belief about George's parent.
I live in Cairns, FNQ. That's where the Watson history went in Aus. FNQ (Far North Queensland), where we became famous cattleman in the North and tin miners. There was a Watson in the party that explored the tin mining area out from Cairns west. Where you will believe it or not find where my nearest relatives came from Watsonville. Look it up, it's true. My grandfather Charles James Watson grew up in Watsonville. It's nearby another Scots formed town, Irvinebank, where they still have a celebratory day each year called 'God Bless John Moffat' day. These Scots saved peoples lives with their jobs during the depression.
Anyway thanks I'm so glad I found this link, helping me with my Ancestry Com tree already..
If anyone wants to chat, would be great. Wow, I'd love to get my hands on a copy of that Will you were referring to. My family would love to know what Watsons remained behind in Scotland, any links to the great Angus Breeder Hugh; -
PS (there's only 3 Watson's from the Angus cattle line left now (my Dad (Allan Watson) and Uncle Charlie) and I'm the last (only child, & Charlie had a girl)-
Although I don't know about the southerners from James Watson - Flemington - that's such a famous part of Australia, had no idea I was related - and that all the place names down there make sense now - they're all after the kids back home and the farm) - Google Earth has helped me link names as well. Even all the cattle stations we named up here in the north, Glen Ruth, Glen Eagle, Goshen, Christ there's about 500 'Glen' something's, when you check the names and go back on Google Earth to Scotland, it's all just back home for them.
*(station is a big farm in Aus), we don't say farm unless it's small, - stations are about the size of Scotland, hobby means less than 50,000 head of cattle.
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Hi Warwick
I have sent you a PM.
Westy11
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My apologies I have lost the PM, accidently deleted
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Hi Warwick
Another PM on its way.
Westy11 :)
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Wow, I'd love to get my hands on a copy of that Will you were referring to.
Easy peasy. Go to www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk, invest in 30 credits at the modest cost of GBP7, and use 10 of them to download an image of the will. You'll still have 20 left to follow up other family members.
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Hi Westy11
No I am not related to these families. I became interested as a research librarian when I was given a project to write about the origin of Flemington in Melbourne. The Watson/Hunter story fascinated me.
We have recently downsized and my paperwork has reduced somewhat but I believe Hugh Watson of Keillor married Margaret Rose and that one of their several daughters was Margaret. My research only found one son who went to America.
If this is the family you are researching there is mention in the book The history of Aberdeen Angus cattle at this link:
http://archive.org/stream/cu31924002957391/cu31924002957391_djvu.txt
I think I read in it once that the herd notes of Hugh Watson were lost when his wife Margaret burned all his papers when he died. (This was one reason I suspected Melbourne's James Watson may have been born to Hugh before their marriage, but I now doubt this)
Good luck
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Hi Celtic1
As a matter of interest the following is what I was able to piece together :
Margaret Rose & Hugh Watson [1787 - 1865]
- Margaret [abt 1826 - 1854]
Janet
Mary Jane
- William
Elizabeth
Hugh
Rose
George S
Georgina
Euphemia
Adam
Patrick [? - 1883 Dotswood Station Queensland]
Regards
Westy11
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Sorry for the delay, but I have just got around to this area.
I can say that Margaret Watson, daughter of Hugh Watson of Keillor <sic> fame in Scotland, and known as Maggie, married Richard J. Jones Esq on 23 June 1846 at Keillor.
I don't know if this helps ???
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Patrick Watson Death 09 MAY 1883 in Qld). The newspapers reported that Patrick fell off his horse But my father has his death certificate, says DT's. So he probably died from bad rum. But they wouldn't report that.
He probably did fall from the horse (inebriated) but I doubt reporters are given personal info. ??? ::)
Annie