RootsChat.Com
Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Derry (Londonderry) => Topic started by: Kipper5 on Monday 02 September 13 23:31 BST (UK)
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Hello,
I am looking into the roots of my gg grandfather, Alexander Brown, and Ironfounder, b 1818 in Ayr, d 1908 Derry. He was married to Agnes Stewart, b 1824 Renfrewshire, d 1903 Derry. They were married in 1846 in Johnstone, Renfrewshire and came to Derry in the 1850's.
From Irish birth records and Irish/Scottish census info, I have worked out that they had the following children:
Eliza b 1845 Newton on Ayr - I believe from a previous marriage, but can't find anything on this
John b 1857 Johnstone
Alexander b 1849 Johnstone
James b 1851 Johnstone
Janette b 1860 Derry
Agnes Stewart b 1862
Margaret b 1867
Jeanie b 1869
I believe there were more children, but can't find them. Any help would be great.
In the 1901 Derry Census (Foyle Road), there was mention of a "granddaughter", Amy Brown, b 1890 Derry, and mentioned again in the 1911 Derry Census (still Foyle Road) as a "sister". I can't find how she was related to the above family. Her father was Robert Hamilton Browne (and her mother Annie Elmes) but I can't find how Robert Hamilton Browne was related.
Thanks very much.
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For reference- Alex's age is really off-
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Londonderry/South_Ward_No__2_Urban/Foyle_Road/1528449
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai000620930/
... although I suspect this could be him in 1901 (and Alex at home is really the son)- daughter Margaret wouldn't have married an Oliver would she?
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Londonderry/Fruithill/Derrybeg/1525521
1911-
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Londonderry/Londonderry_Urban/Foyle_Road/599691
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From Irish birth records and Irish/Scottish census info, I have worked out that they had the following children:
Eliza b 1845 Newton on Ayr - I believe from a previous marriage, but can't find anything on this
Was the first wife not a Martha Wylie as mentioned in a previous thread on Ayrshire board?
The mother of Eliza(beth) - and the other 2 children, John and Alexander from the 1851 Johnstone census - appears indeed to be Martha Wylie, and not Agnes Stewart.
Alexander Brown, moulder, married Agnes Stewart in Johnstone in 1846 (there are 2 records of bans anyway on 23 Aug 1845 and 7 Feb 1846).
Moreover, there is also a record of Alexander Brown, moulder, having married Martha Wylie in Paisley on 21 Aug 1845.
Alexander Brown and Agnes nee Stewart moved to Northern Ireland in the 1850's and had other children, including my gg grandmother. There are several Wylies appearing on subsequent records there (one as a lodger on the 1911 census, and one as a marriage witness). The plot thickens.
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Thanks for replying so swiftly.
When I had started researching the family I had originally thought Alex Browne snr was married to Martha Wylie in 1845 before marrying Agnes Stewart in 1846, and the children (Elizabeth, John and Alexander) had the same names and approximately the same birth dates, but I now think these are two different marriages.
However, there is a Wylie connection:
"granddaughter" Amy Brown married Alexander Brown Wylie from Liverpool in 1911 in Liverpool
a John Wylie was boarding with the Browns in Foyle Road in the 1901 census.
Also, when Amy Brown's father, Robert Hamilton Browne was married in 1899 in Derry (to Harriet Lobb) a David Wylie was a witness.
I would love to know the full connection.
Regarding your first reply:
The Alexander Brown in the 1901 and 1911 Foyle Road census' was the son, born in Johnsone c 1849.
His father was indeed staying with the Olivers at the time of the 1901 census- daughter Margaret married James Oliver from Derrybeg. He died in 1908.
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Perhaps you already know this , but there was a foundry, owned by Alexander Brown & co, in Foyle Street until the late 1960's early 70's.
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I knew that his company was Alex Brown & sons in Foyle St, but I didn't know that it was around as late as the 1960's. Thanks for that.
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I can't find the date it closed, but I can remember it. There is an article in Londonderry Sentinel about the Speaker of the Assembley and talks about his apprenticeship in Browns until 1969/70.
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Thanks for that.
Through looking at the Sentinel website (thanks for the tip) I also found that Private Robert Brown from Fountain Place died 1 July 1916, one of the men from the city who died in the First World War.
This could be the Robert Hamilton Browne, who is somehow related to Alexander Brown's family, who I am researching. I had never found his death details before, although I had found the details of his wife and children.
I believe Robert H Browne was born in Derry in 1857 to Alexander Browne (Brass Fitter) and Anne Browne.
He was married to Harriet Lobb in 1899 and had 4 children (Edith, John Hamilton, Caroline Isobel and Ann Ida), all born in Derry.
He had also married Annie Elms in 1889 (in Islington, England) and they had Amy Johnstone Brown in 1890 in Derry but Annie died in 1890, and, according to the 1901 census Amy J Brown was living with the other Brown family in Foyle St as a "granddaughter" and then in 1911 as a "sister".
According to 1913 Lennon Wylie Street Directories there was: Alex Brown+Sons (iron Brass founders) in Foyle Street, and Robert H Brown (ironfounder) in William Street.
Can anyone help: is there any info on the parents/siblings of Alexander Browne (brass fitter) and Anne Browne?
I would like to know how they are related to the other Alexander Brown (ironfounder) who I am researching.
Thank you.
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Robert Brown killed at The Somme in 1916 was the son of Mary Jane Brown and husband of Jessie with whom he had 3 children. He had 2 brothers, John and James, who also served-
www.diamondwarmemorial.com/soldiers/view/111
http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/765775/BROWN,%20ROBERT
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Thank you for that. It was a different Robert Brown.
I still don't know where/when Robert Hamilton Browne died then. He's not buried with his wife and children in the city cemetery.
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Do you mean that Robert Hamilton Browne isn't on a headstone or that he isn't listed in the burial records of the Cemetery? When and where did his wife die? does her death certificate list her as married, widowed or divorces? and who was the informant? What about the children's deaths- who registered them? All this might help pin down a date when Robert was still alive.
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My grandfather was Robert Hamilton Brown's son. His name was john and he was born in 1902. According to my mother, Harriet (robert's wife) lived on her own, and no-one talked about Robert. A mystery! Robert did serve in the First World War, in the a.o.c. We have his medals. He did survive , but then seems to disappear.
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How interesting!
You don't happen to know Robert H Brown's parents, do you?
I found a birth record for him for 1857 in L'derry with parents Alexander Browne (Brass Fitter) and Anne Browne, and assumed that to be him.
And then I couldn't work out how that fitted in with the family of Alexander Brown, Ironmoulder that I am researching. But now I think Robert was a son of my Alexander Brown, and that I had the wrong birth record and parents.
If this is the case, my granny was the cousin of Robert H.
I've looked again for the death record of Robert H Brown. I wonder if he died in March 1930 in Liverpool?? His eldest daughter Amy had moved there in 1911 and died there in 1912, so maybe there's a link.
I emailed the Derry City Cemetery to see if they have any record of him and to see if he could be buried with his first wife, Annie Elms, who died in 1890. They haven't come back to me yet.
I look forward to hearing anything else you may know!
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From what I know robert hamilton's father was alexander brown, the same man who owned the foundry on foyle road. My mother and her brother remember this. His wife was Agnes ( there is also a daughter called Agnes as you can see in 1911 census for 7 foyle road). Does this help? I have no idea where R.H. Brown disappeared to after the war. My mother said that it was a forbidden subject!
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Thanks, that's great.
Alexander Brown had his foundry on Foyle St, Alexander Brown + Sons. There was also a foundry Robert Hamilton Brown in William St. Was that a different Robert Hamilton Brown, or, then why did he have a separate foundry to his father+brothers?
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You might want to look through the Valuation Revision books (www.proni.go.uk) to see the occupiers of those properties (goes from the printed version of Griffith's Valuation until c1930).
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I was interested to read your message re the Brown family of Londonderry.
My paternal Grandmother was Mary Wylie born Liverpool 1875 (aprox)
Her brothers were John born 1870 (aprox) and Alexander Brown Wylie born ? he was the youngest.
I think you refer to him having married early WW1, I remember that his wife died whilst he was away at sea during WW1 as a marine engineer.
Subsequently he ran his own Engineer Marchants business in Liverpool.
He was my Dad's 'Uncle Sandy'.
John Wylie also a Marin Engineer is possible the one you refer to as lodging in Londonderry.
I believe that in the 1920/1930s he ran the Foundary because of problems
Alex Hampton
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Thanks for that. How interesting.
Yes, looking at the census info, there was also a sister Kate Wylie, born in 1872 (and maybe also Mary Jane born in 1867 and Mazie in 1868).
I was sad to see about Amy J Brown/Wylie: she went to Liverpool to be married to Alexander B Wylie in 1911 and died in 1912. Particularly sad if Alexander was away. She was only 22 and her death was registered by M Hampton, sister-in-law (your grandmother?).
You don't happen to know how the family is connected with the Browns of L'derry, do you? As we've said, John Wylie was boarding with them in 1911.
Also a David Wylie was a witness at the wedding of Amy J Brown/Wylie's father, Robert Hamilton Brown to Harriet Lobb in 1899. Who was he?
I have found out that Agnes Brown nee Stewart, Amy J Brown/Wylie's grandmother, (married to the Alexander Brown, Ironmoulder who I am researching) was related to Wylies in Scotland: her grandmother was a Mary Wylie, born 1762 in Kilmarnock, Ayrshire.
Thanks again.
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I cannot throw any light on the Wylie/Brown conection I always presumed that my Grans mother was a Brown but that sounds much too simple. I well remember Gran Jack and Sandy all of whom died during my early teens....my father was my main source of info. He was demobbed in1919 and a few days later was seriously injured in an accident at work.Middle 1920 he spent a period of recovery with the Browns so he was well known to them. Alas he was caught up in a major disturbance and left as soon as it was safe to do so. Forward to 1939, one Aunt Agnes was over to visit, as a small boy I still recall going to say farewell at the landing stage she was on one of the final sailings pre ww2. So far as I am aware there was little if any further contact. I will be interested in anything further you discover.
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There was an Agnes Brown in the Brown family L'derry, who died in 1946. My great granny, Margaret Brown/Oliver was her sister.
When did your gt grandmother, Mary Wylie die?
And did you know anything about Amy's father, Robert Hamilton Brown?
I look forward to hearing more.
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And also (sorry to bombard you), do you happen to know where your great grandparents, John and Mary Wylie were married? (Scotland or Liverpool?) I think they were married in about 1863.
Thank you!
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Will see if I can find out where John W and wife were married. Their eldest son John (Jack) was 10 on 1851 census so your guess as to date of mariage isn't far off. Up to the present that is the limit of my investigations except that I felt certain the Brown/ LDY connection might lead to something and it did in spades! They lived in Kirkstall Street which is Kirkdale just north of Liverpool city centre. Mary Hampton died in Aug 1946 in Waterloo Liverpool. Or Lancs as it then was. Her brother Jack and my mother (we lived nearby) helped care for her. Jack had come to live with her after g/dad (another Alex H) died in 1942. Alas I had never heard of anyone Hamilton Browne prior to contact with you.
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From the 1911 census in Walton on Hill it states that Mary and John Wylie were married 48 years, so married in about 1863. It also states that they had 7 children, but that 4 were alive.
Where is Mary Wylie buried?
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Hi I notice I had Jack W dob wrong should have been abt 1870. Re Mary H she is buried in Kirkdale Cemetry (5 9 46) otherwise known as Longmoor Lane. It is close to Aintree racecourse. I have the papers for grave. I didnot search Scot marriages for John and Mary senior I note that they wed in Ayrshire, I seem to be well linked to that corner of Scotland I hae just spent a week in Galloway researching mr GF H's roots. All traced to Port William. And I havereason to believe my mothers family could have come from there.
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I think John Wylie snr died in June 1917, aged 79? I can't find any record of his wife, Mary Wylie snr though. Who died first?
I am wondering if her full first name was different to Mary.
The Browns in L'derry had a sister Eliza Brown born in c1843 in Newton upon Ayr, Ayrshire from a previous marriage, who I can't trace, and I was wondering if this was Mary???
Rather clutching at straws. It would be great to have her full name and maiden name, which would be on the 1863 marriage cert (which again I can't find).
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Hello Alex,
Do you know the plot reference for Mary Hampton's grave at Kirkdale Cemetery?
I'm hoping to go to Liverpool library to find out who else is buried in that grave and to see if her mother, Mary Wylie is also there.
Thank you.
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Hi Grave in Kirkdale is No 374 section 9. However the official record shows only three burials.
In 1940 James Hampton g/dads brother. 1943 Alex H g/dad and in 46 Mary H. I know personally that it has not been used since. This grave was in my Dads name he being the active person at that time,1940. Both he and my mother are elsewhere. I have no knowledge of the Wylie graves even Jack and Sandy. To my knowledge we never had any papers to do with Wylie. Jack I think died first and Sandy died before his 2nd wife Nellie she came from near Preston where her sisters lived years ago. A
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K5 I have been away for a few days and wonder if you have made any progress? You infered that you may visit Lpool library or the Cemetry. Have you done so if not and you intend to I would be happy to meet up if you so wish and if we can find a convenient time. Library prefared to the other place. I do not live amillion miles from Lpool centre so no problem there. Let me know. Meanwhile have made no progress on any of the matters discussed.
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Don't know if this rings any bells but my mother remembers her father (john/jack Hamilton brown,son of Robert Hamilton brown) visiting a cousin Alex in liverpool and an aunt Nellie when she was little (1940/50/60s). Still the mystery of what happened to Robert Hamilton brown.
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At least someone remembers something! My calculation is that your G/F John HB was a cousin of my G/M Mary H (nee Wylie). Agree? What was the position in the previous generation... can't work that out at the moment.
My mother died in 1950, before that I have clear memories of visiting Sandy and Nellie they had a TV!! and S used to take my Dad who was more or less TT to his local. I think when the TV became too much. l presume that Sandy was still around after Mum died but not for long. I do recall spending a few days with Nellie during my last summer at home I went to sea at 17 and cannot recall her end I seem to think she was in care near Preston for some time. I still do not know the Hamilton connection.
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That's great that A. Brown's grandfather, John Hamilton Brown actually referred to the Liverpool Wylies as cousins.
This implies that their mother, Mary Wylie was possibly a sister of the Browns in L'derry. And also then that Amy J Brown, (John Hamilton's half sister) married her cousin (Uncle Sandy) in Liverpool.
The Browns in L'derry as far as I know were:
John (b1847 in Johnstone, Renfrewshire, d1897 Derry)
Alexander (b1849 in Johnstone, d1929 Derry)
James (b1851 in Johnstone, d1933 Derry)
Robert Hamilton (b c1858 in Derry, d?,mysterious disappearance), A Brown's great grandfather
Janette (b1860, d?)
Agnes Stewart (b1862 Derry, d1946 Portstewart)
Margaret (b1867 Derry, d1953 Belfast) my great granny
Jean (b1869 Derry)
I think there was also a son, David Hepburn Brown (Bertie), born I think in Derry, who went to South Africa.
Their father was Alexander Brown, born c1818 in Ayrshire, married in 1845 in Renfrewshire to Agnes Stewart, b 1824 in Renfrewshire.
Alexander Brown was previously married and widowed between 1841 and 1845, possibly in Newton upon Ayr, Ayrshire.
From the first marriage he had atleast one daughter, Eliza, born c 1844 in Newton.
((The 1851 census in Johnstone, Renfewshire gives him and his second wife Agnes with Eliza aged 7, and then John aged 3 and Alexr aged 1. James must have been born shortly afterwards and then the family , for some reason, went to Derry.))
What I don't know is how the sister Mary Brown/Wylie, (Alex Hampton's great grandmother) fitted into this. From the Liverpool census' it can be seen that she was born in c1843 in Ayrshire, so either she is "Eliza", or she is another sister just not in the Scottish 1851 census.
Alex, I went to the Central Library in Liverpool and was able to find that the Wylies are buried in Kirkdale Cemetery in Section 7, Grave 1668. Well, I found Amy Johnstone Brown/Wylie, who died in 1912 aged 22, and John Wylie, your great-grandfather, who died in June 1917, aged 79. I really want to know who else is in the grave. Particularly to find when Mary Wylie died, and then if there is any more info on her. This will show if indeed she is a daughter of Alexander Brown. And then who her mother is.
((To get this info, I have to contact the Liverpool cemetries' office to obtain the Order Numbers of each burial for the grave, and then return to the library to look up each Order Number.))
Sorry for the huge response!
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What a marathon It will take me a while to digest that have had to copy out by hand as my printer u/s. Amazing the way the key player is a series of ????. I will now go back to the info I already had to see if it sheads any light but I have my doubts. Keep in touch
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what a lot of information to digest! I expect you have already looked at the PRONI wills, there is a copy of john Brown's will (who died 29.1.1897) as there he lists his brothers as James, Robert, David and Alexander jar and his 3 sisters as Agnes, Margaret Oliver (nee Brown) and Jeannie. So Kipper 5, it appears we are related as our great grandparents were siblings!
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Wow, no I didn't. That's great!
The relationship to the Liverpool cousins remains a mystery.
They were related in that Amy J Brown, Robert H Brown's daughter had married Alexander Brown Wylie (your "Uncle Sandy", who later married "Aunt Nelly") in 1921. But I think they were related in another way.
Alexander B Wylie seems to have been named for possibly his grandfather, the Scottish Alexander Brown, who lived in Derry.
I would like to find out more about the child/ren from the first marriage in Scotland, to see if Mary Wylie snr, Alex Hampton's gt granny was indeed a sister.
Thanks again.
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Hello, (Alex Hampton)
I have found out who is in the Wylie Grave at Kirkdale cemetery (Non Conformist section 7, plot 1668):
Amy Johnson Wylie buried 21 Nov 1912, age 22
John Wylie, buried 8 June 1917, aged 79 of 39 Almond Green, W Derby
Mary Wylie, buried 19 April 1933, aged 91 of 10 Walton Village, Walton
Kate Wylie, buried 6 Dec 1937, aged 65 of 9 Egerton Pk, Rock Ferry. Spinster, owner John Wylie.
These are your great-grandparents, Mary+John. This basic grave info doesn't give Mary's maiden name, or details of her parents, which is what I would like to know, to see how she is related to the Browns in Derry.
I just know from the 1911 census that she and her husband were born in Ayrshire and married 48 years at that time, so about 1863.
{Kate is sister of your grandmother, Mary Wylie-Hampton, and your gt uncles John/Jack and Sandy.}
Regards.
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Hi K You are better at all this than me. Thyank you. Good going on the older Wylies I appreciate the problem re Brown connection. No bright ideas on this I am afraid.
10 Walton Village was my grandparents address in 1933 I think that they moved to Waterloo soon after that. My Dad Geo and sister Kate both married 1933 other brother at sea. I had never heard that Mary senior had lived with them perhaps only as she became older?
I had discovered Kate Wylie in the early censuses in 1891 given as age 19 and dressmaker the big point is that my Dad who gave me much of the family history never mentioned her! I had wondered if she had died quite young. A
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I am intrigued by this discussion as one of my great great grandfathers was a John Browne of Londonderry who was recorded variously as an ironmonger and as a blacksmith. According to family lore he provided most of the decorative ironwork in Derry at the time. He was born abt 1830, and died Apr-Jun 1900. He married a Margaret Rutherford Andrews (who I believe was a Scot) and had children Margaret, Ada, Agnes, David, John, Mag, Jane and Jeannie, my great grandmother 1855 - 1921). Mag was a teacher married a Mr Lowry and may have migrated to the USA.
The occupations and similarities with names are interesting.
Any connection with your family Kipper 5?
Does anyone else know if my John Browne was from the previously mentioned Foyle Road family? (I have so far been unable to find any more about him except that he was a big burly man much loved by my grandmother for his cheery disposition and his habit of always having pennies for them to spend on lollies.)
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Hello canberraterry,
I'm not sure about the immediate connection. John Brown in our Brown family was born in Scotland in 1947 and died in 1897 in Derry. He married Sarah something, born in 1843 in Tyrone, and died 1903 in Derry. I don't think they had any children, as John's will found by A Brown has leaving everything to his siblings and his wife, Sarah.
There may be some connection though, so I will have a look at the census'.
thank you for your info.
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Hello Alex Hampton,
I saw the birth certificate of Alexander Brown Wylie from 1880, and this gives his mother's name as Mary Wylie, "formerly Brown".
So I think she must have been related to our Browns in Derry.
Now I know her maiden name, I will try to find the details of her marriage to John Wylie. The marriage certificate should give the name of Mary's father. The 1911 Walton census states that they were married for 48 years at that time, so c 1863.
They were both from Ayrshire, so maybe they were married there. Or maybe Liverpool. Or maybe even Derry.
Regards
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Possible marriage- John Wylie to Mary Brown 1863-
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FGNR-N3N
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Wow, thank you, Aghadowey!
I think that's them!
They were married at St Columb's in Derry on 10 Nov 1863.
John Wylie is listed as an Engine Fitter.
His father was also a John Wylie, a farmer.
Mary Brown's father is listed as Alexander Brown, a moulder.
In the 1871 census in Liverpool John Wylie is Engineer Steam Vessel. They probably moved to Liverpool for his work.
And so Mary was a daughter of Alexander Brown, from his first marriage. <<This means also that her son, Alexander Brown Wylie (who was named after his grandfather!) married his first cousin, Amy Johnson Brown in 1911. (Amy's father was Robert Hamilton Brown, sister of Mary Brown/Wylie, be it from her father Alexander's second marriage)>>
I'd like to now find Mary Brown/Wylie's birth record.
According to all the census' in Liverpool her birth year ranges from 1842 to 1844 in Ayrshire.
The census of 1851 in Scotland has her father's family with his second wife (from 1845) in Johnstone, Renfrewshire, and there is a daughter Eliza, age 7, born in Newton upon Ayr, Ayrshire. Maybe this was Mary??
Thanks again, Aghadowey
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Hi Kipper Sorry for loss of contact but my broad band went off early Dec and there followed endless troubles..followed by Christmas! I have managed a little research and had got part way to Mary Brown. Very pleased that you seem to have reached most of it for me. Need to sit down now and work out who may be related to who. All the other ancestors I have researched seem to have no living relatives...this Brown thing is the exception
Re John Wylie my Dad used to say he was a ships Chief Engineer for Larranaga a Portuguese os Spanish outfit. Also my cousin son of Kate Hampton tells me that she used to speak of her Aunt Kate.
All the best for 2014
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Happy New Year, Alex.
Nice to hear your family stories.
I've had no luck finding the birth details of Mary Brown in Ayrshire in 1843. I really want to find her mother's maiden name. I believe she also had a sister Elizabeth born in Ayrshire in 1844, but I can't find her details either.
I believe their mother must have died in about 1844, for their father Alexander Brown remarried in 1845 and went on to have 9 children (John, Alexander, James, Robert Hamilton, Janette, Agnes, Margaret and Jean) with second wife, Agnes Stewart; daughter Margaret was my great-grandmother.
Regards
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Hello Alex/A Cole,
Here is the obituary of Alexander Brown snr (our gg grandfather), a very helpful person from the Derry Central library sent me:
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Sorry, I pressed Post by accident.
As I was saying, here is the obituary of Alexander Brown snr, from the Derry Standard on 19 Feb 1908:
"Death of Mr. Alexander Brown
The death took place yesterday of Mr Alexander Brown, who was for more than half a century a resident of Derry, and for a considerable part of that time one of its most enterprising manufacturers. A native of Scotland he came to the Maiden City as managing foreman of the old Wellington Foundry, in Foyle Street, of which the late George Green was then proprieter. After a period of service in that employ he began business on his own account in premises on Foyle Road which stood on the site now occupied by Messrs. Burns' laundry, and by the character of his work and the energy he infused into the conduct of his business, he developed a trade which soon necessitated a removal to larger premises. What was then known as McCarter's Saw Mill, Foyle Street was secured, and in that new location Mr Brown was able, with the assistance of sons, who were expert mechanical engineers, to still further develop his business, and to establish a widespread reputation for the excellence of his castings and other foundry work. Within quite recent years the opportunity of acquiring the goodwill and plant of Mr. George Green offered, and that business was taken over by the firm of Alexander Brown & Sons, the premises being rebuilt, Mr Brown senior thus coming ultimately into possession of premises, which he first entered as an employee. With the extended facilities which the new works gave, the firm enhanced the reputation which its head had already established, and many important contracts at home and at a distance were secured and faithfully executed. Deceased had reached his ninetieth year, and for some time past had not taken and active part in the firm's affairs, but he was one who, by constant strenuous effort intelligently and successfully directed, had earned a spell of repose in the evening of his days. In politics Mr Brown brought Liberalism with him from Scotland, and he was a Gladstonian of the old school. In all the relations of life he was a worthy, decent man. "
I also got his obituary from the Londonderry Sentinel and the Derry Journal, and they were very similar but with less detail. It's very interesting, but I was still hoping for a little more detail on his family and maybe for something on his first marriage. Great though.
Regards.
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Thanks kipper5, this was interesting to read. I still have had no luck finding out any more about
Robert Hamilton brown!
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Hi K All very interesting I had come to the conclusion that Alex B must be my g g father and he is yours too small world. Can't believe that all this has openned up as I had been thinking of investigating the Brown connection for quite some time.
Have done a bit of delving and see on 1841 census for Stewartston Alexander Brown aged 23 and Janet (I think) Brown aged 21 Which is the right age bracket for AB. Have you sen this alas no nearer maiden nme.
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Hello Alex and Kipper,
The world may even be smaller than you think. As suggested earlier I appear to be related as well although I cannot find a definite link. I am the gg grandson of a John Brown (1830-1900), allegedly a major supplier of iron lacework in Derry so surely of the same family, who married Margaret Rutherford Andrews, and their daughter Jane (Jeannie) McMillen Brown (1855-1921), who married John Cunningham (1847-1919), and their daughter (my grand mother) Adeline Rutherford (Ada) Cunningham (1879-1970) who married John Wesley Smith (1878-1961). I would be delighted if either of you could help with proving/disproving the link.
I have since discovered second cousins from the same line in Canada as well as the UK, and of course there is a sizeable bunch of us here in Oz. Truly fascinating to see how we have spread.
Cheers,
Terry
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Since writing the above this morning I have reviewed all of my family material again and am now even more confused. The following is an extract of a brief family history written by my grandmother, Ada (nee Cunningham), daughter of Jane "Jeannie" McMillen Brown (sometimes with an e and sometimes without) shortly before her death. I apologise for its length but I hope that it might jog some memories if we are indeed related:
"2. The Brownes
My maternal grandmother was a dainty, petite, and attractive woman; Margaret Rutherford Browne, one of three sisters, descendents of Dr Samuel Rutherford, the Presbyterian Divine. They were wards of the Horatio Bonars in Glasgow, Scotland.
Grandma lived with her eldest daughter, Agnes Robertson (nee Browne) in Derry. Other children :
a. Auntie Mag Lowry (nee Browne) was a teacher and a great favourite in our home, when on holidays before her marriage.
b. Aunt Ada married and went to America. – I remember seeing her only once afterwards, when she came on a visit to Grandma in Londonderry.
c. There were two sons, John Brown and David (?) whom I dimly remember as coming to say goodbye to my parents before sailing for South Africa.
Mother used to tell us of her visits to her aunts in Glasgow, and of spending days and evenings in the home of one of the poet preachers - Dr Horatio Bonar.
I was told that Grandfather Browne was responsible for most of the decorative iron-work – railings etc – in Derry city. I remember him as a big, affectionate man who lavished sweets and pennies on us children, We spent those coppers in a little, dark shop two steps down from the road, where a little old woman dispensed thick sticks of caraway rock and peppermint out of jars with tight-fitting lids. Whenever I spent a few days at Grandma Browne’s home, I wondered at, and was rather scared by the rows of big, equal-sized gilt-framed portraits adorning the dining room walls, but wakened with delight to the sound of the sirens, steam whistles “blowing” and movements of shipping on the River Foyle, and at the wharves.
On Boxing Day we always had the Robertson family from Derry come for the day. Father and Uncle A went off shooting with a party of local men, coming home just in time for dinner, with rabbits, hares, and birds of various kinds, that lasted both families for a week afterwards. On 30th October they used to come to celebrate All Souls’ Day, or All Hallows’ Eve, with us. We used to look out excitedly to see them coming up the street from the railway station with Father, who had gone to meet them. There was usually a whitish mist rising from the ground. We children did not go to meet them, but they appeared through the gathering darkness, and celebrations began almost before they were indoors. Uncle and Auntie, Daisy, Jean, Alex, George, and Jim.
Apples were hanging on strings suspended near the ceiling, tubs of water on the floor contained more apples, with a supply of forks, dropped from the mouth to spear them with. White sheets as wraps for “ghosties” to dress in, to hunt for cabbage stalks and so discover the names of our future life partners. Each person carried a cabbage stalk from the garden, then, clutching it firmly, listened outside someone’s window – any name overheard in the indoor conversation was supposed to be the name of the clutcher’s wife or husband-to-be! When the water and apples and tubs etc had been cleared away, nuts were produced. They were placed in pairs on the bars of the hot grate, where they burned side by side, watched excitedly, while they flamed calmly together or spluttered and spat at each other, thus prophesying what each couple’s future would be like!
Our cousins would stay all night, returning next day to Derry by an early train. Daisy and Jean, Edith and I shared one bed, pushed up close against the wall, and sleeping cross-wise instead of length-wise."
Since the John Browne the Engineer and Iron Founder who died on 29 June 1897 was married to a Sarah, I am wondering if my gm Ada Cunningham's recollection of Margaret Rutherford Andrews as her grandmother on the Browne side might be not quite right or her recollection of the iron works might be not quite right.
I have included the extract in the hope that it might jog the memory of someone who knows the family, as I would love to be able to confirm my ancestry on this line, and I haven't had much success so far with my limited research skills. In any event, the descriptions of a life style long gone might be of interest to others.
Terry
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Hello Terry,
Do you know where John Brown was born in 1930? And where he married Margaret R Andrews? And did he die in Derry in 1900?
My gg grandfather Alexander Brown was born in Ayrshire in c1818 and came to Derry in the 1850's with his work as an ironfounder/moulder.
The closest census record I have found for him in 1841 is in Newton on Ayr, Ayrshire, and lists him as a Founder, with his parents (John and Mary Brown), and his siblings (I presume): Margaret aged 15 and James aged 10. The only link I can think of is that your John is another sibling; he would have been about the same age as James. But that's rather vague. We would need to know more about where he was born, etc. He's definitely not one of Alexander's children, as he was only 12 in 1830!
I have tried hard but cannot find any further details on any of these people in this Newton 1841 census, except for Alexander, who I believe went on to marry in the next few years, and by 1851 was living in Renfrewshire with his second wife and several children.
Regards.
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Hi Kipper,
Having gone through everything again I can find no proof of his name, although the family remembers him as John. The dates I gave were based on an early attempt to find him based on that name and may not be reliable. Going back to first principles, as his first children were born in the 1840s, I suspect that he was probably born in or around 1820, and as my grandmother's memories of him only come from her lolly buying years, I suspect that he probably died somewhere around 1890 give or take a few years. Sadly none of that is of much help.
The family names (Ada, Agnes, David, John, Margaret and Jeannie) and the similarity of occupation (allegedly a major supplier of decorative ironwork in Derry) seem to suggest a connection, but like you I have been unable to make any connection in surviving records. Thanks for what you have done so far to try to find the supposed link. I will keep trying to find some evidence one way or the other.
By the way, my g grandmother Jeannie Cunningham nee Brown/e was born in Glendermott on 19 Feb 1855 and died in Belfast on 10 July 1920.
Thanks again,
Terry
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Hello, I've made some headway with things:
When Alexander Brown snr was married for the first time in Ayr he had 2 daughters that we know of: Mary, Alex Hampton's g grandmother, born in c1842 (who married John Wylie from Scotland and moved to Liverpool), and Eliza, born in c1844. Eliza is listed in the 1851 census in Johnstone, Renfewshire with the family, but I've never been able to find anything about her. But I now think she married a William Roberton, an ironmoulder from Glasgow on 9 Feb 1861 in Derry. I found a census with them in in 1881 in St Nicholas, Aberdeenshire, with 6 children, the eldest of whom is Alexander Brown Roberton, born in Ireland in 1867. I can't find any other traces of them, except maybe Alexander in the 1901 census, now an engineer, as a Boarder.
Agnes nee Stewart, Alexander Brown snr's second wife is in the 1841 census in Johnstone, Renfewshire with her grandparents, and sister Jean (she married Alexander in 1845). She is also living with a Robert Hamilton, then aged 12. I think he was her cousin. She obviously went on to name her own son, the mysterious Robert Hamilton Brown (A Brown's g grandfather) after him.
And Terry, I've also looked into your Brown tree, hoping to find a connection with our Brown tree. I found that your gg grandfather John Brown married Margaret Rutherford on 23 June 1850 in Barony, Lanark. I think that is in Glasgow, where she was from. John is listed as a "smith" from Cowcaddens, I think also in Glasgow.
I found the census recs for their 2 daughters in Derry:
Jane seems to have been born c1856 in Derry city and married John Cunningham, auctioneer in c1877, and lived in Limavady.
And Agnes R Browne married Andrew Robertson, a coppersmith from Kilmarnock on 5 Jan 1882 in Derry. At the wedding her father is listed as John Browne, "smyth" and MR Brown (prob her mother) is a witness. Agnes seems to have been born in Scotland also c1856. Andrew and Agnes had their eldest daughter, another Margaret in c1884 in Scotland, where they must have lived when they were first married, before going to Derry-second daughter Jeannie was born in Derry c1885.
There are obviously lots of links between Scotland and Derry. I would like to know where and when John Brown, the blacksmith was born. As I said, he was married in 1850 in Glasgow, but I can't find a 1851 census, which would give info.
Regards.
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Hi Kipper,
A great many thanks for what you have found out: you have achieved more in a few days than I have in five years. I am currently travelling and won't be home for another couple of days but will get back to you after I have been able to see where your new info takes me. Thanks again.
Regards,
Terry
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Hello,
Alex Hampton, I found the death record of Elisabeth Roberton, sister of your gt grandmother, Mary Brown-Wylie. She died in Oct 1904, aged 60. The record gives her father as Alexander Brown, and mother Margaret Brown, nee Waugh, deceased.
From that I found that Alexander Brown, moulder married Margaret Waugh in Glasgow in Oct 1841!
This is Alexander's first wife; she must have died in about 1844, as he then married Agnes Stewart, my gg grandmother.
A little bit of headway into the family of Alexander Brown..
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Hello Alex Hampton,
I haven't been on this for a long time. How is it going? Any joy with the roots of your gt grandmother, Mary Brown-Wylie?
And A Brown,
Any joy with finding the mysterious Robert Hamilton Browne?
I'm still trying to find the parents of gg grandfather, Alexander Brown. I know from his grave that they are John and Mary Brown from Ayrshire. No luck with a birth record. There are possible Scottish census records of them in 1841 and 1851 in Newton on Ayr. And from 1871 on there are records of Mary Brown as a widow living in Troon, where she died in 1877.
There are just no records for 1860's. So I was wondering if John and Mary went with son Alexander + his family to Derry in 1850's, where maybe John died.. I think he was born in 1786 in Ayr and was a Seaman.
Regards.
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Hello Alex Hampton,
How is it going with the family tree?
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Don't know if this helps, but it shows another connection between the browns and wylies. My g.grandfather (the elusive robert Hamilton brown) lists on his WW1 soldier's record in 1915 as his address being 10 Walton Villas in liverpool. Which is where Alex's grandparents lived? Don't know why he didn't sign up in Derry.
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Hello A Brown,
Do you happen to have details of Robert H Brown's soldier's record?? If we had a reference of some kind we could see what he did in WW1.
You previously said that you knew that his record stated that he was in Walton Villas in Liverpool in 1915. As he was born in 1858 he would have been 57 in 1915..
Thanks,
Kipper.