RootsChat.Com
Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Topic started by: Gilby on Friday 06 September 13 18:03 BST (UK)
-
NB: This relates to families in Antrim, Armagh and Belfast. Also, some of the information on this thread is from another thread (“Weir Family Belfast”) where some contributors have been very helpful. I didn’t want to take over that thread though, so I’ve made this one instead.
My great great grandfather was a man called William John Gilbert (1822-1880). A history of the company of which he was a director says he was one of 7 children born of Stephen Gilbert (c1780-1836) and Anne Jane (possibly Jones). William John married Ellen Orr Killen and together they apparently had 10 children.
I am fairly certain of the above. My problem is figuring out exactly who William John’s siblings were. I’m also a bit confused about his children, as I shall explain in another post.
According to the company history I mentioned, Stephen and Anne Gilbert’s children were “William John, Stephen and 5 others”. I also have two lists from two different family researchers (I’ve not yet been able to establish if one outdates the other) as follows:
- A daughter (b c1818)
- Jonathan (b. c1820)
- William John (c1822-1880)
- Margaret Anne (b. c1826)
- Stephen (c1830-1902)
- Eliza Jane (b. c1834)
and…
- Stephen (baptized 14th February 1814 and assumed to have died in 1816)
- Sarah (baptized 20th March 1816)
- Eliza Jane (baptized 6th Nov 1819)
- William John (baptized 15th March 1822 and died 1880)
- Frances (baptized 30th December 1826)
As you can see there’s a bit of overlap and a bit of contradiction. I'll go through what I have for each person in the next post.
-
I’ve been able to put together some information about several of these names, but I have a horrible suspicion that I may be mixing two or more different families together (the number of Stephen Gilberts makes life difficult).
[Stephen Gilbert and family were from a village called Aghagallon in south Antrim, next door to the village of Aghalee and near the Armagh towns of Lurgan and Portadown. ‘Soldierstown’ refers to a church near Aghalee.]
Jonathan – The Jonathan we’re looking for was apparently a doctor. According to the Lurgan directory there was a Jonathan Gilbert, surgeon and apothecary, working from Church Square/Market Street in 1852, 1856 and 1861. He appears to be absent in 1840 and 1865. There is a record of a Jonathan Gilbert (“Lurgan, M.D.) in the Soldierstown church records as having died in 1864 aged 44. Annoyingly there’s a will of another Jonathan Gilbert (physician) of “Lurgan, County Armagh … who died 26th February 1867 … granted to Eliza Gilbert of Lurgan … widow of said deceased”. (It may be possible that these two were the same person? Either way I haven’t found anything to link him with my people.)
Sarah, Frances, Sally?? – I don’t know where the names of Sarah and Frances come from. I did find a Sally Gilbert, daughter of Stephen Gilbert, who married Robert Gilbert, son of Thomas Gilbert in Aghalee on 21st November 1855 though. There’s nothing to say her father is the right Stephen though.
William John – I know plenty about this guy. He was born in 1822 and died in 1880. He married Ellen Orr Killen in 1851 at Ballyeaston church (which is very close to where my family now lives, incidentally). There’s still the problem of his 10 children but I’ll get on to that later.
Margaret Anne – She was born in about 1818 (not 1826 as above) and died in 1903. In 1826 she married Meredith Rountree of Rountree Hill, County Armagh. They emigrated to New Zealand in 1865/66. There’s plenty of discussion about her and her descendants on another thread on this site, but the only evidence I have to link her to my family is her mention in the will of her brother Stephen Gilbert (presumably she was the only one of his siblings to outlive him).
Eliza Jane – I’ve been given two completely different dates for her DOB – 1819 and 1834. On the 5th May 1852 an Eliza Jane “daughter of the late Stephen Gilbert”, married James Gilbert, a merchant of Portadown. So she was either rather young or rather old when she married. The IGI has a Sarah Gilbert born to James Gilbert and Eliza Jane on 6th August 1858.
Stephen – Now this is the interesting one. One of my sources thinks he was born in 1814 and died in infancy in 1816 (there is indeed a Stephen Gilbert born to Stephen Gilbert and Ann Jane on 14th February 1814), and another thinks he was born in 1830 and lived till 1902. It is possible they called the first son Stephen (as was the family custom) and they later called another son by the same name. Or maybe they were the same person and the birth date of 1830 is completely spurious. I’ve got plenty of information about a Stephen Gilbert who evidently lived beyond the age of 2. On 3rd April 1857, in Soldierstown church, Stephen Gilbert of Aghagallon married Sarah Anne, only daughter of the late Mr Edward Bell. They had a son in 1818 called Edward who died aged 6 in 1864. The will of Stephen Gilbert says he was the younger brother of William J. Gilbert, apparently - I haven’t seen the full thing, and I can’t read the writing anyway. In the will he mentions his wife Sarah Ann, sister Margaret Anne Rountree (N.Z.), nieces Annie Price, Minnie Weir, Janie Gilbert, Eleanor Gilbert and Edward Killen (N.Z.). The residue was to be divided between William, Stephen and Henry Gilbert. Most of these names match the names I have for William John’s children, thus making it fairly certain that this Stephen, and Margaret Anne, were indeed children of Stephen and Anne Gilbert.
-
Finally I get on to the children of William John Gilbert. This is relevant to the above discussion thanks to the will of Stephen Gilbert. Again, I have the two sources. The first lists Jane McCausland, Eleanor, William/George Young, Edward Killen, Anne Mary, Thomas Stephen and Henry. My grandfather (son of William Gilbert), who saw this about a decade ago, put a squiggledy line through these names and noted underneath, “completely muddled”. Rather less helpfully he didn’t correct it, and unfortunately he died in 2010.
I do believe this list of the 10 children is at least 70% accurate:
Edward Killen – Born before 1852 and died in 1890 in Katikati, New Zealand. He emigrated before 1879 and married Martha Killen Wilson on 22nd December 1881 in Katikati. They had sons William (Will), John Killen Wilson (Jack) and Edward Du Vivier.
Stephen – Born in about 1852 and died in infancy?
Annie – Born in about 1855? She had married James Millar Killen by 1879. She travelled to Victoria, Australia in 1882. Her husband died in 1928. She died on 28th June 1934 in Whangarei, New Zealand.
Mary (Minnie) or perhaps Anne Mary (?) – Born in about 1858. She apparently never married?
William Gilbert – My great grandfather. He was born in 1862 and died in 1935. He married first Una Margharita Nixon, and second Evelyn Helen Haig. In 1901 he became a partner in the same business as his father had been a partner in.
George Young – Born in 1864 and died in 1882. He was evidently still living at home and his effects were granted to his mother Ellen Orr Gilbert.
Jane McCausland (Jean) – Born in about 1865 and died on 26th July 1908. Her will says she was of “2 Sandown Park, Knock” which is the same address she gives for her brother William. However, neither seem to appear in the 1901 census. She died unmarried and left her effects to her unmarried sister Eleanor, brother William Gilbert (tea merchant, 2 Sandown Park) and Thomas Stephen Gilbert (engineer, 1 Deramore Drive).
Eleanor – Born 27th June 1866 and died 30th August 1930, British Columbia [thanks aghadowey]. As mentioned in Jean’s will she never married.
Thomas Stephen (Stephen) – Born 6th June 1869 and died 19th February 1935. He was a civil engineer, and by the looks of his mini-bio on the Irish Architectural Archive website he had a pretty successful career. He married Bethea Adelaide Corry and had 5 children.
Henry (Harry) – Born 27th December 1870 to William John Gilbert and Ellen Orr Killen. He probably emigrated to Edmonton, Albert, Canada before 1901. He was buried on 19th December 1955 in Edmonton Cemetary in plot next to “Mary Gilbert” who was buried on 14th May 1913.
The problem is that the will of Stephen Gilbert (d.1902), brother of William John Gilbert, mentions “Annie Price” and “Minnie Weir” as his nieces. Annie Gilbert married James Millar Killen and therefore became Annie Killen, not Price. Was Annie Price a niece by another sibling? Meanwhile the most likely candidate for “Minnie Weir” is a Mary Gilbert who married John Weir in January 1879 (thanks Kingskerswell). Unfortunately, as pointed out by aghadowey, her father is listed as Richard, not William John. So was Richard actually a brother of William John, or is Richard actually Robert, the husband of Sally Gilbert who may or may not have been a sister of William John!?
Aaaaah. Did anyone follow all that?
-
Earlier topic- I suggested asking for your posts to be split off from it rather than starting a new topic-
www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=659821.20
The will of Stephen Gilbert says he was the younger brother of William J. Gilbert, apparently - I haven’t seen the full thing, and I can’t read the writing anyway.
The wording from the Will Book is the entire Will and is perfectly legible. "Probate of the Will of Stephen Gilbert late of Aghagallon County Antrim Farmer who died 27 September 1902 granted at Belfast to William Gilbert Merchant and Jonathan Gilbert Farmer." Nowhere does is say that William J. is Stephen's younger brother, or indeed mention his brother.
See http://applications.proni.gov.uk/DCAL_PRONI_WillsCalendar/WillsSearch.aspx
-
Quote from the Weir thread:
You can use 'report to moderator' to ask for the last bit of this topic to be split into a separate thread (and moved to Ireland General board since there are several counties involved).
Stephen Gilbert (son of Stephen) m.1857 Lurgan district to Sarah Ann Bell (daughter of Edward).
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FGCN-NZ3
Stephen (d.1902) Gilbert's Will mentions lots of relatives which should make drawing out a family tree much easier- wife Sarah Ann; sister Margaret Ann Rountree in N.Z.; nieces: Annie Price, Mary Gilbert, Geanie Gilbert, Ealenor Gilbert; nephew Edward Gilbert's sons, N.Z.; nephews: William Gilbert, Stephen Gilbert, Henry Gilbert; executors William Gilbert, merchant, Belfast & Jonathan Gilbert, farmer, Aghagallon.
As the family seem to be Methodist (Stephen's Will mentioned a bequest to Moira Circuit) keep an eye out for other Gilberts who were Methodist.
Are you saying the name in Stephen's will is "Mary Gilbert" and not "Minnie Weir"? I'm incapable of reading that style of joined up writing and I was going off a note in some research done by a relative. I shall go to the deciphering part of the forum to see if I can get someone to transcribe the whole will for me.
-
Earlier topic- I suggested asking for your posts to be split off from it rather than starting a new topic-
www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=659821.20
The will of Stephen Gilbert says he was the younger brother of William J. Gilbert, apparently - I haven’t seen the full thing, and I can’t read the writing anyway.
The wording from the Will Book is the entire Will and is perfectly legible. "Probate of the Will of Stephen Gilbert late of Aghagallon County Antrim Farmer who died 27 September 1902 granted at Belfast to William Gilbert Merchant and Jonathan Gilbert Farmer." Nowhere does is say that William J. is Stephen's younger brother, or indeed mention his brother.
See http://applications.proni.gov.uk/DCAL_PRONI_WillsCalendar/WillsSearch.aspx
Sorry, yes, I looked at that option but I decided it might be rather too complicated. And I wanted to make sure I had room to explain the situation in a new thread. And anyway, I can quote your posts from the other thread to here :)
As for the William J thing - that's something else I got out of the information put together by my relative. I did find the will online but I'm afraid it just looks like a jumbled mess to me. I shall press ahead with trying to get someone to write it out for me.
Also, I've only just noticed that I can actually see the second page of the will. I've only been at this for a short while. Sorry!
-
Are you saying the name in Stephen's will is "Mary Gilbert" and not "Minnie Weir"? I'm incapable of reading that style of joined up writing and I was going off a note in some research done by a relative. I shall go to the deciphering part of the forum to see if I can get someone to transcribe the whole will for me.
Mary Gilbert is mentioned in Stephen's Will. Minnie Weir is mentioned earlier in the document.
-
Aha, thanks for pointing that out. That explains that problem. And thanks again to Gardner who transcribed the whole will out for me. I still need to figure out who Annie Price and Minnie Weir were. And if I can find evidence of Annie Killen (dau. of W.J. Gilbert) having died before 1902 it would explain why she isn't on the will (and convince me that she isn't the same person as Annie Price).
Here's the bit from the will with names (after he talks about his wife):
"...to my sister Margaret Ann Rountree New Zeland $50 pounds if alive, if dead to be divided in equal shares between her living children. I leave to Annie Price my niece $100 if alive, if dead to be divided in equal shares between her living children. I leave to my niece Minnie Weir $100 if alive, if dead to be divided in equal shares between her living children. I leave to my niece Mary Gilbert $50 pounds, to my niece Geanie Gilbert $50 pounds and to my niece Ealenor Gilbert $50 pounds, and to my nephew Edward Gilbert's sons, New Zeland $50 pounds to be divided in equal shares between them. I leave to Sarah Brankin $10 pounds, a Bed and Bedg. I leave $50 to be invested, the interest of it to assist in paying the minister for time being on the Moira Circuit. I leave to Thomas Tow $10 pounds if alive and on the farm at time of sale. I leave to be sold my shares in the Colonial & United States Mortgage Co Ltd as soon as it is possible to do so whatever the amount may be. I leave it to be kept in hand to meet defieconciss. The above Legacies to be paid free of duty. I leave the Residue to be divided in equal shares between my nephews William Gilbert, Stephen Gilbert, and Henry Gilbert."
I'm assuming that "Geanie Gilbert" is the same person as Jean/Jane Gilbert, especially since she is mentioned in between two sisters. I'm also assuming that Sarah Brankin was a servant and Thomas Tow was a farmhand.
-
Here's a post by aghadowey on the other thread:
William John Gilbert died 1880 (father- Stephen) m.(1851) Ellen Catherine Killen died after 1880 (father- Edward).
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FGCQ-WLL
Children of William John Gilbert & Ellen Orr Killen-
Jane McCausland Gilbert (c1860-1908)
“Probate of the Will of Jane McCausland Gilbert late of 2 Sandown park Knock Belfast Spinster who died 26 July 1908 at Portstewart County Londonderry granted at Belfast to William Gilbert Merchant and Thomas Stephen Gilbert Civil Engineer.”
Ellenor/Eleanor (1866) https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FR4Q-CFP
1911- www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Down/Victoria__part_of_/Irwin_Avenue/230849
Died 1930 Canada- https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FLG6-7LN
“Gilbert Eleanor of Landsdown Road Uplands Victoria British Columbia Canada spinster died 30 August 1930 Probate Belfast 5 May to Thomas Young Ekin seed merchant. Effects £450.”
(male) Gilbert (1869) https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FPDV-FRD
Henry Gilbert (1870) https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FPR4-GFX
1901- Henry Gilbert (30), sisters Jane M (41) & Eleanor (33), niece Eleanor Mary (5)
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Carrickfergus_Rural/West_Division/992260
Online family tree (with mistakes) gives details on the family, including Mary/Minnie born c1858.
There's a lot of juicy information in there that I am working my way through. Thanks :)
-
With the census etc back online the search continues. I was looking through the Jonathan Gilberts of Lurgan area and I came across what appears to have been a brother and sister getting married to a sister and brother on the same day in the same church. Does that seem plausible?
Jane Gilbert (daughter of Jonathan Gilbert) m. William Kenning (son of William Kenning)
22 July 1859, Aghalee, Antrim
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FGC5-1DS
Jonathan Gilbert (son of Jonathan Gilbert) m. Eliza Kenning (daughter of William Kenning)
22 July 1859, Aghalee, Antrim
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FGC5-1DH
Has anyone heard of a double marriage like this? I have come across 3 sisters (Youngs) marrying three brothers (Killens) before, but they didn't all get married at the same time. ???
-
Following up on Eliza Gilbert, probably the same Eliza as in my previous post, I've got this section from a Will (abstract/letters of administration?):
"...Eliza Gilbert late of Ryefield Aghadrumglassny Aghalee County Antrim Widow who died 8 February 1891 at same place (left unadministered by William Kenning one of the Executors) were granted at Belfast to Sarah Kenning of Ryefield Widow the Curatrix of the Minor Children of William Kenning Deceased the Universal Legatees in remainder."
http://www.willcalendars.nationalarchives.ie/reels/cwa/005014908/005014908_00175.pdf
Does anyone know what it means by "left unadministered", "Curatrix" and "the Universal Legatees"?
-
I think I can now put a tick beside another of the siblings of William John Gilbert. Eliza Jane Gilbert (not the same as in the previous two posts):
Christened in 1819:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FRQV-JZW
Parents Stephen Gilbert and Ann Jane.
Married James Gilbert in 1852:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FGX7-9SC
James was the son of Thomas Gilbert who I'm now looking for.
My best option so far for Thomas Gilbert is one who died aged 95 in 1877 in Lurgan (right place), so born in about 1782 (about right, possibly a little old). There's also a Jonathan Gilbert born in the area in 1823, who's father was Thomas Gilbert - so he may be a younger brother of James. Just speculation though.
-
When I was looking at the Jonathan Gilberts of Aghalee I found a Jonathan and Mary who had about 8+ children between 1813 and 1834. There's one in the middle with parents listed as "Jonathan Gilbert" and "Margt".
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FRQV-PRX
Would it be fair to assume that Margt is a miss-reading of Mary?
-
The problem is that the will of Stephen Gilbert (d.1902), brother of William John Gilbert, mentions “Annie Price” and “Minnie Weir” as his nieces. Annie Gilbert married James Millar Killen and therefore became Annie Killen, not Price. Was Annie Price a niece by another sibling? Meanwhile the most likely candidate for “Minnie Weir” is a Mary Gilbert who married John Weir in January 1879 (thanks Kingskerswell). Unfortunately, as pointed out by aghadowey, her father is listed as Richard, not William John. So was Richard actually a brother of William John, or is Richard actually Robert, the husband of Sally Gilbert who may or may not have been a sister of William John!?
I believe I may have made a breakthrough! Firstly, I found this record of Sarah Gilbert, daughter of Stephen Gilbert and Anne Jane (therefore William John's sister):
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FRQV-KPT
And then I have the marriage of Sally Gilbert, (Sally being a pet name for Sarah, I'm assuming they're the same person) who married Richard Gilbert:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FGFX-L5L
Then the exciting bit was when I looked up Richard's Will (which I can read most of, for a change) which mentions his daughter Anna Gilbert (unmarried at the time), and his daughter Mary or Minnie Weir. It also mentions his grandson Gilbert Weir.
http://applications.proni.gov.uk/DCAL_PRONI_WillsCalendar/willsSearchResultsDetails.aspx
So finally I know who the mysterious "Minnie Weir" niece of Stephen Gilbert's is - the daughter of his sister Sally/Sarah. And according to Kingskerswell she married John Weir in 1879, though I still haven't found this record myself.
It is possible that "Anna Gilbert" went on to marrie a Price to become "Annie Price", the other mysterious person in Stephen Gilbert's will. I shall look into that now.
-
Not sure why you are so surprised to find the details about Minnie (Gilbert) Weir- I posted the information about her on the earlier thread on 5 Sept.- which is why it is NOT a good idea to have two topics looking the same family-
Only fathers are listed on marriage certificates. Mary Gilbert, father- Richard. m. 1879 John Weir, father- Robert.
and-
PRONI has Will of Richard Gilbert- " The Will of Richard Gilbert late of Ballinacorr County Armagh Farmer who died 20 July 1891 at same place was proved at Armagh by George Blaney Roland of Ballinacorr National School Teacher the sole Executor."
Will mentions daughter Anna Gilbert, daughter "Mary or Minnie Weir", grandson Gilbert Weir.
-
You are very harsh on me.
Yes, I had your information about Minnie Weir, but you had not posted any links, and at that stage I wasn't sure how to find it for myself:
Ooh, thank-you. How did you find that? (I'm fairly new to this)
I had also discounted the will of Richard Gilbert (and, I admit, forgotten about it) because I had nothing to link him to my family. It wasn't until I found a birth record of Sarah Gilbert that I was able to link in Richard.
I considered your suggestion of asking a mod to split the previous thread, but I don't think I would have been able to post a 3-post introduction to the new thread as I have done here. I may be wrong, but since I am only new to this forum, surely I can be forgiven for that?
-
If Stephen Gilbert (brother of William John Gilbert) died in 1902 and was the same Stephen that was born in 1814, he would have been about 88. I have found a death record of an 88 year-old Stephen Gilbert who died in 1903:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FTX1-YYW
I can't find any Wills to match. I'm wondering if this could be a transcribing error and if there's any way I might be able to tell. Perhaps the volume or page number might give away the year?
Scratch that - I found the Stephen Gilbert I'm looking for - born c1814, died Oct-Dec 1902, which all fits.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FTXK-STT
-
You mentioned early in this thread Sarah Frances Gilbert. She is the daughter of John Gilbert (I don't have record of his father at this time) and Sarah Douglas of Lurgan. Married John Earls Rutherford and they moved to New York.
She had the following siblings, that I have been able to trace:
Anne Gilbert1835 – 1925 (Married William Wentworth Paul)
❏
♀
Mary Gilbert1841 – 1924 (married George Douglas)
❏
♂
George Gilbert (I believe he was George Douglas Gilbert named for his grandfather George Douglas: a George Douglas Gilbert born sometime in the 1840's. His father is unknown, and he marries Helena Harpur who was born 1850 in Newry, Down (she was christened at Newry Methodist 7 March 1850) They have the following children: 1. George Douglas Gilbert Birth 10 Dec 1871 in Ireland Death 21 May 1941 in New Westminister, BC 2. Perceval Gilbert Birth 07 Feb 1879 in Belfast, Antrim, Ireland Death 25 Jan 1947 in Haney, Maple Ridge, British Columbia 3. Jannetta Gilbert Birth 29 Mar 1880 in Belfast, Antrim, Ireland Death )
❏
♂
John Gilbert – 1877 (Married Anna Elizabeth Cordukes, and has a son named George Douglas Gilbert)
❏
♂
Simpson Gilbert – 1922 (Unmarried)
-
Hello. Thanks for posting.
I think at some point I wondered whether Sarah Frances might have been a ggg/g aunt. Since then a lot of research has been done, largely by a researcher hired by a cousin. I now have the following for her family, which matches what you have, and possibly adds a bit:
John GILBERT m. Sarah DOUGLAS
- Anne b. c1830/1835?
- Henry b. c1831
- George b. c1832
- Simpson b. c1836, d. 12 Dec 1922
- John b. c1837, d. 10 Aug 1873, m. Anna Elizabeth CORDUKES (c1846-1926):- Jane b. 11 Apr 1870
- George Douglas b. 15 May 1871, d. 26 Sep 1951, m. Agnes NEIL and had issue
- Jonathan Cordukes b. c1873, d. 13 Jan 1926
- Mary b. c1840
- Sarah Frances b. c Aug 1844, m. John Earls RUTHERFORD:- Ellen Davis b. 2 Apr 1874
- Anna Mary b. 8 Jun 1875, m. Frederick T BECKER and had issue
- John Gilbert b. 30 Oct 1876, m. Mabel H
- Mary Douglas b. 31 Jan 1878, m. Warren JAMES and had issue
- Robert, b. 13 Jan 1879
- George Douglas, b. c1848, d. 25 Mar 1911, m. Helena HARPUR (c1852-1889):
- Charles, b. c1873 in Wales, d. 19 Oct 1921, m. Agnes CRAIG and had issue
- Percival, b. 7 Feb 1879
- Janetta, b. 29 Mar 1880, m. William Williamson SKILLEN
- Frederick, b. c1882
- Kathleen, b. c1887
- Harriet Rebecca, b. c1850
-
Are John Gilbert and Sarah Douglas ancestors of yours Jennigal?
I'd be very interested if you can figure out who John's father was. Their branch is one we still haven't been able to attach to the wider Gilbert family tree of the Lurgan area.
The Gilbert DNA is now well established (three tests) and we match the "Matthew Gilbert of New Haven" group (http://www.janegilbert.org/gilbertdna/). If you knew any male Gilbert descendants of John Gilbert and Sarah Douglas they would hopefully match.
As far as we can tell the Gilberts arrived in Lurgan in the late 1600s and they were Quackers. The researcher I mentioned has put together a 'best guess' tree for these early Gilberts from mentions in the Quaker records, and later in parish registers. Unfortunately there is a crucial gap in the records which means we're unable to join the tree all the way up to the top.
Jonathan Gilbert (d. 1713) m. Ann ? (d. c1743)
- Jonathan (d. 1747), had issue:
- Henry, b. 1711, probably had a son called John
- Jonathan, b. 1714
- Elizabeth, b. 1716
- Anne, b. 1718
- Hanna, b. 1721
- Richard, b. 1722, d. Jul 1722
- Thomas, b. 1723
- Sarah, b. 1726
- William, b. 1727
- Mary, b. 1730
- Grace, b. 1735
- Mary, m. George WHITESIDE on 16 Dec 1699
- Sarah
- Anne, m. John CROOK on 4 May 1702, he died c1709
- Hannah, m. Morgan WILSON on 15 May 1717
- Thomas, d. 1754, m. Mary who died Dec 1742
- Stephen, d. Dec 1737, had issue:
- Jane, b. 1709
- Elizabeth, b. 1711, d. Jul 1713
- Elizabeth, b. 1713
- Sarah, b.1716
- Jonathan, b. 1718, d. bef. 1723
- Stephen, b. 1721, d. 1723
- Jonathan, b. 1723, probably had a son called John and a daughter called Frances
- Hanna, b. 1725
-
You had a couple of marriages in there I don't have.
I had seen the marriage of Anne Gilbert, daughter of John Gilbert to William Wentworth Paul. But because John, Jonathan and Stephen are such common names in this family, I wasn't sure enough to say this was Anne, daughter of John G and Sarah Douglas. Everything seems to fit though, so I think I'll merge them in.
I didn't know of the marriage of Mary Gilbert to George Douglas. I've looked up the notice in the Belfast Newsletter:
[5 Sep 1872] DOUGLAS-GILBERT: Sep 4, at Holywood Church, by the Rev. W. Rathbone Supple, George Douglas, to Mary, second daughter of the late John Gilbert, both of Lurgan.
Presumably they were cousins?
-
Hi
I don't have John Gilberts father :( was hoping you did ... Shankill church has still got its records so perhaps a search there would help? Did your researcher check those records?
Check the wills of Mary Falloon, John & Robert Douglas at PRONI and you will see the Gilbert Family named there (Lurgan).
Will write more later, gotta run. I haven't proved a link to this Douglas family but it is highly likely that we are related. I have three family graves buried right next to this family at old Shankill cemetery, we share common names and a picture of a Ann Douglas in this family bears as stricking resemblance to a gggg Aunt of the same generation. My Douglas line traces back at least to 1740's and certainly further back. We've a DNA match with another Douglas line who's connection is perhaps one generation back from this time, or us the brother of my x5 g grandfather. Quite possible that Ann Douglas is a link then as well .
Jenni
-
Yes, the researcher did look through those parish registers. There is apparently a gap between about 1750 and 1780 where no Gilbert’s are mentioned – perhaps they went to a different church for a while. Your John should be after that though.
However, I do have some possible good news. A few hours after your post I was forwarded an email from another person researching the Gilbert/Douglas family. I emailed him just before this post, so I don’t yet know whether you’re in cahoots with each other or this is a fluke coincidence.
His ancestor was Anne Gilbert daughter of Henry Gilbert and Ann Douglas. Anne (Jr.) apparently had siblings Fanny, John, Mary and Henry. It is known from a tombstone in Shankill Cemetery that John died on 29th Apr 1872 (presumably this is one you have seen).
The question I suppose is whether that John is definitely your John. We know your John had died before 5th Sep 1872 (marriage notice of Mary to George Douglas)... so that fits anyway. Death notice in the Belfast Newsletter:
“GILBERT – April 29, John Gilbert, Lurgan, aged 68 years. His remains will be removed for interment, on to morrow (Wednesday), at twelve o’clock.”
I’ll wait to hear back on email.
-
Which Ann Douglas was it that bears a resemblance to your gggg aunt? And what was the aunt's name?
Those wills you mentioned were very useful for piecing together the Douglas family. This is what I have so far - perhaps you can fill in some gaps?
somebody? DOUGLAS had issue:
Mary, d. 1863, m. ? FALLOON
James, d. bef. 1856, had a son called George
George, d. bef. 1856, had issue:
- Robert, b. c1808, d. 1877
- Sarah, m. John GILBERT and had issue (see other post)
- James, d. bef. 1877
- George
- John, b. c1805, d. 1871, m. Arabella ? and had issue:
- William, b.c1839
- John, b. c1854
- Rebecca, b. c1858, d. 1875
- Arabella, b. c1860
- Henry
- Annie
- Mary
- George
By the way, when Anne Gilbert, daughter of John Gilbert and Sarah Douglas, married William Wentworth Paul in 1849, the officiating minister was the Rev. Charles Falloon - I wonder if he was a relation of Mary Falloon (nee Douglas)...?
-
Hi MF
I don't have the name of the Douglas father of Mary, George and James. I also have an unknown son due to mention of three cousins (William Douglas of Kilmore, James Douglas of Lurgan & Jane Douglas who married Thomas Jones) in the wills who don't have a clear connection to either of the named three siblings. We think that the father of these 4 (Mary, George, James and unknown) is either a John, George or James.
The Anne Douglas that I have a picture of is the daughter of the James Douglas who settled in Edinburgh (Lived in a home called Lurgan Place). She resembles my x3 great Aunt Margaret Douglas. You won't have her information as I am yet to find the conclusive verification that ties our families. As I shared before, I am quite certain that this Douglas family is related to mine but I think that the records that would prove our connection would be in the early 1700's (if they exist!). What I really need is a surviving male Douglas from this line who would be willing to submit DNA ... it wouldn't tell us when we connect, but would confirm if we are family. As yet, I have not found a surviving Male Douglas line for this family.
Mary Douglas married John Falloon, brother of Samuel Falloon. I've seen Rev Charles Falloon, but don't know what his relationship would be to John or Samuel.
It is John Douglas's son, George Douglas, who married his cousin Mary Gilbert. John Douglas was married twice, first to Mary Ross and then to Arabella last name unknown. George a son from John's first marriage.
George and Mary Douglas nee Gilbert had two daughters: Sarah Douglas (Birth 01 Jun 1873 in Lurgan Death before 1901 in Lurgan, Armagh, N Ireland ) and Mary Douglas (Birth 09 Oct 1874 in Lurgan, County Armagh, Ireland Death before 1901 in Lurgan, Armagh, N Ireland ). the 1901 & 1911 census has Mary Douglas living on William St. 1911 Census seems to show that her girls had passed away.
Does this help? Do you want more on the Douglas family?
-
Thanks for the information.
Do you know why Robert Douglas in his will says "niece Mary Gilbert wife of George Douglas" without referring to George as anephew too? I suppose it would make sense if George was dead...?
I'm afraid I have no prior knowledge of the Douglas family. I will be trying to expand the tree and fill in the gaps when I get the chance. So I'll update you here if I find anything, or if I find any likely leads to living Douglas's.
-
Hi MF
Would you like an invite to my tree for this family ( on ancestry)? That way you will know what I have etc. if you do then inbox me your email address.
Jenni
-
Oh ,also , regards George Douglas. There is a will for him at PRONI as well, where he names his brother Henry in New York, his wife Mary and other brother William :o)
Regards
Jenni
-
Thanks, will do.
-
Just bookmarking really at this stage. My head is already spinning from what little I have read so far!
For your info - James MillEr Killen b, 1815 is my 2x gt Grandfather, but I have yet to work out which of his children I am descended from!!
Will have to come back when I have got a bit of spare time!
snaptoo
-
Hi. That sounds like an interesting challenge! I've probably mentioned it somewhere before, but I am descended from two of James Miller* Killen's siblings. What do you know so far? Which of his children do you suspect?
*(you say E, rather than A?)
For reference:
(Rev) James Miller KILLEN born 25 Oct 1815
m. (firstly) Martha Jane YOUNG on 22 June 1843, and they had:
1. Martha, b. 13 Jun 1846
2. Jane Young, b. c1847
3. James Miller, b. c1848
4. Margaret, b.c1849
5. George Edward, b. 27 Apr 1851
JM Killen m. (secondly) Margaret Rebecca Bryson SINCLAIR on 12 Oct 1853, and they had:
6. Elizabeth Sinclair, b. 6 Oct 1854
7. Jonathan Edwards, b. 8 Jan 1856
8. Blanche Brice, b. 27 Feb 1857
9. Ellen Orr, b. 18 Dec 1858
10. William Wilson, b. 31 Jan 1860
11. Edward Brice, b. 18 Oct 1861
12. Samuel McCausland, b. 4 Sep 1863
13. Albert Ernest, b. 24 May 1865
14. Henry Herbert Sinclair, b. 25 Nov 1866
By the way, a few of the details I posted at the start of the thread are a bit confused, but Rootschat doesn't seem to let you edit your own posts after a while.
-
Hi MF :D
I will have to get back to you, as I was on the point of closing down! But, I have found out so much info over the last 3 months, possibly Martha, but only a possibility. I will enlarge on that next time!
Just a bit of a teaser for you, my initials are B J K D., the K being Killen!!
snaptoo aka snap, snap2 or s2 :D
-
I shall look forwards to that next time then :)
-
I just started doing research on the Killens, so I hope that one of you may be aware of the following connection and be able to offer more information that what I currently possess. Here is what I have so far:
1. James McAuley (McCauley) of Ardymaugh married 1846 Ellen (Eleanor) Killen. He the son of John McCauley, and she the dau of William Killen. Quest: Who was this William, then?
2. John McAuley
2. James McAuley
2. Jane McAuley
2. Sarah Wilson McAuley married to William Adair,school master, died 1912, son of John Adair.
2. Edward Brice McAuley
2. Ellen McIlwaine McAuley
2. Edward McAuley m. Annie Martin, probable dau of Moses Martin.
This McAuley family immigrated to Minnesota
With the names of Wilson and Brice, was Ellen Killen somehow related to the Killen family of Ballymena?
Pehaps I just found the answer to my question at world connect and a post made by Ted Marr.
He had the following: Eleanor Killen was the dau of John Killen and the granddau of John Killen, Sr. by his wife Martha Dool.
-
Hi,
Certainly it looks like Eleanor McAuley (née Killen) was of these Killens, but she wasn’t the daughter of John M Killen.
I haven't been able to find a will or death notice to add any dates to John M. Killen but I do know his wife was Isabella Ramsay and she died in 1891:
[Belfast Newsletter 28 Dec 1891]
KILLEN - December 25, at 21, University Square, Belfast, Isabella, widow of the late J.M. Killen, Ballymena, aged 86 years. Funeral Private.
She left a will which is on the PRONI will calendar. By the various relatives she names we can be sure that her late husband “John M. Killen of Ballymena” was a brother of the Rev. James Millar Killen (1815-1879) mentioned above. She also mentions her daughter “Eleanor Killen” (not McAuley).
The will was written on the 27th October 1879, and I guess there must have been sickness in the house, because it turns out Eleanor died on the 13th November:
[Belfast Newsletter 15 Nov 1879]
KILLEN: November 13, at University Square, Belfast, Eleanor, only surviving daughter of the late John M. Killen, Belfast.
Her will was written in 1863 and it mentions her mother “Isabella Killen otherwise Ramsay.” It also mentions her cousin William McCausland (my gg grandfather) who is described as “my cousin german William McCausland” which I can’t fathom at all, so if anyone else has another reading of ‘german’ I’d be interested to know (he wasn’t German) ... perhaps a shortened form of ‘gentleman’?
So I’m afraid that rules out that Eleanor and I’m at a bit of a loss to think of an alternative.
Do you know when the McAuley children were born? When did they emigrate?
According to GRO James McAuley married "Elenor Killen" on the 7th Jan 1846, registered in Ballymena. I wasn't able to find a marriage notice in the newspapers.
-
By the way, how do you know James McAuley was of Glenwherry - is that from the 1846 marriage cert? Does it also say Eleanor's father was a John Killen (of Ballymena?).
There are Killen connections to Glenwherry by the way. Eleanor who died in 1879 mentions her interest in land in Glenwherry. Her uncle, Edward Killen (my ggg grandfather) lived in a house called Glenville in Glenwherry and is buried at Glenwherry Presbyterian Churchyard.
Even if Eleanor Killen who died in 1879 is not the right Eleanor for you I'm interested to know how/why she had a share in land in Glenwherry. I wonder if there was a connection to the area going back before Edward Killen.
-
I shall look forwards to that next time then :)
Hi MF
Sorry but I have already had 2 attempts at typing this post, so will just give you the 2 links for you to be going on with! http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=tedmarr&id=I14534#s3 read to bottom of page then you will find my grandfather - (Rev) James (Killen) Dean(e)!
added......wish there was more info on Dr Dean!!!!!!
http://www.comberhistory.com/chs%201840s.htm Have you seen this website? Very interesting! but the bit that I have post is more relevant, and where I got the Miller spelling from - probably :-\
They give you something to chew on ;D
Bizzy, back soon! ;)
snaptoo
added part 2..........May I ask where you are ???
-
...
Her will was written in 1863 and it mentions her mother “Isabella Killen otherwise Ramsay.” It also mentions her cousin William McCausland (my gg grandfather) who is described as “my cousin german William McCausland” which I can’t fathom at all, so if anyone else has another reading of ‘german’ I’d be interested to know (he wasn’t German) ... perhaps a shortened form of ‘gentleman’?
...
From the French cousin germain
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/cousin-german
-
Aah, thanks Aghadowey. I’d not heard of that one before.
Snaptoo, I didn’t actually have your Dean on my tree yet. I see Ted Marr has the marriage date, though I can’t find it on GRONI. I did find this though:
[Belfast Newsletter, 23 Jul 1881]
DEAN-KILLEN: July 18, at the Presbyterian Church, Conlig, by the Rev. J. M. Killen, M.A., Bellshill, brother of the bride, assisted by the Rev. David Gordon, Conlig, and the Rev. William Wilson, Greenock, brothers-in-law of the bride, John Henry Dean, Esq., L.R.C.P. and S.E., to Maggie, daughter of the late Rev. J. M. Killen, D.D., Comber, Co. Down.
Oh, it turns out the GRO record has their names as “John Deans” and “Margaret Millen”
I see Ted Marr isn’t sure that they had children – I’m guessing you know more?
-
I changed some information on the post I made yesterday, so please go back and take another look. Also, please see the following website:
http://www.historyfromheadstones.com/index.php?id=522&page=345&prevStartQuery=1720&theme=Infant&Send=Send
This is the McAuley-Ellen Brice gravestone.
-
https://ia802701.us.archive.org/27/items/historicalaccoun01olav/historicalaccoun01olav_bw.pdf
Book has a number of Catholic Killens mentioned.
Also, could the marriage of a Killen to an Eiken be actually to an Aicken?
-
Thanks to the link to the headstone inscription.
Yea, there is/was a big family of Catholic Killens somewhere in County Down, I can’t remember where they were centred – but they’d been around for centuries. Whether or not our Killens are connected, I don’t know – too far back to be easily traced.
With the Brice and Killen names and connection to Glenwherry/Ballymena I take it we’re assuming your Ellen was descended from James Killen (d. 1791) and Blanche Brice (c1739-1807). This is what Ted Marr has to say on the topic of James’ religion:
There is nothing to suggest that (as has been popularly held among his descendants) he was a Roman Catholic, which appears to be based on a misreading of a passage in Revd Dr William Dool Killen's "Reminiscences of a Long Life". More probably, his family had been Presbyterian for more than a hundred years, say four or more generations.
I think my grandfather was one of those who thought our Killens were descended from that long-established Catholic family. I also know he had a copy of “Reminiscences of a Long Life” which may be where he got the view (I now have it on a shelf beside me – signed by my great grandfather William Gilbert).
Anyway, you say Ellen’s father was in fact a William Killen. Do you have the marriage cert? Does it say where William/Ellen were from, or what William’s occupation was?
The first possible William I looked to was William Dool Killen (he who wrote the above book). But he didn’t marry until 1830, so is unlikely to have had a daughter who married in 1846 (though not completely impossible).
That I think would then rule out all descendants of John Killen (1767-1828) and Martha Dool? I see John had several siblings, (taken from the Carnmoney baptism records, I assume). I haven’t yet done any research that far back on the Killens, so I can’t offer any updates to what Ted Marr has.
Hmm...
-
I have run out of time to do much tonight, but wondered if you have seen this..........
http://www.rjbw.net/WilsonFT.html
Re my post last night, I know nothing about Nellie Dean except that she was my grandfather's sister! I do not know whether she had an 'e' on the end of her surname :-\
Rev. James Killen DeanE married Gladys Gwendoline Lloyd - date unknown
Dtr - Margaret Killen Deane b. 1912 :-\ d. early 1970's :-\
Son John Henry Killen Deane (my Father) b 26 June 1914 d. 10 May 1976
Married Mary Allen 10 October 1941
My brother and I are their only children, and neither of us have married nor had any children, so we are the end of this line!
As you can see, I know very little about my Father's side of the family, that is why have been so excited about all the info that I have found since 4th March this year!
Must away now
snaptoo
-
Unfortunatley, I don't have a copy of the actual marriage certificate for James and Ellen Brice, only a facsimile of the pertinent facts that was sent listing her father as William and his father as John. With her name of Brice, the odds of her being somehow related are pretty high, but just how they are tied together is still very much of a mystey. Howeve, this is what I do know:
1. James (John?) McAuley of Ardymaugh (c.1809-1874) m. Ellen Brice (c. 1820-1889)
2. John McAuley
2. James McAuley
2. Jane McAuley
2. Edward Brice Killen McAuley
2. Ellen McIlwaine McAuley
2. Sarah Wilson McAuley m. 1875 at Kilbride Presbyterian Church to William Adair, school master, died 1912, son of John Adair. w/issue.
-
Came across this while searching for something else and can't see it mentioned here so will post in case it would be of interest.
Belfast Newsletter, 29 June 1907: CAMERON-KILLEN- June 25, at 17, Finnart Street, Greenock, by Rev. Wm. Wilson, Minister of Wellpark Parish (brother-in-law of the bride), James Cameron, Fassifern, Ballymoney, to Blanche Brice, youngest daughter of the late Rev. J.M. Killen, D.D., Comber.
-
Hi aghadowey :D
Many thanks for that info :D Any Killen info gratefully received :)
I joined this thread as I recognised a few names from my recent research.
I had been wondering about starting my own thread, before finding this one. What are your thoughts on that matter ??? Should it be split ??? ???
snaptoo
-
Thanks Aghadowey – Yes that is of interest. I think I had Blanche (my 1st cousin, 4 times removed) married to a Cameron, but didn’t know more. Those marriages across the water often prove tricky to find (unless you know where to look).
Pablo, I’m afraid I’ve drawn a bit of a blank with these McAuleys.
I see James McAuley lived in ‘Ardymagh’ which I guess must be “Big Ardymagh” at the northern end of Ballynashee. Unfortunately the Griffith’s map on Askaboutireland doesn’t have the plots numbered, but it looks like the McAuleys probably lived within a mile of my ancestor Edward Killen at Glenville, Jockeysquarter.
I had a look at the valuation books for Ballynashee to see if that would tell us anything. It hasn’t really, but this is what I noted down anyway.
#23 (house and 140a)
?-1874 = James McCawley from Reps James/Jane Price
1874-1875 = James McAuley (spelling changed)
1874- = John McAuley from Reps Jane Price
#33 (house and 169a, then 50a after 1867)
?-1863 = John McCawley from Reps Jane Price
1863-1883 = Robert McAuley from Reps Jane Price
1883- = George McAuley from Reps Jane Price
#35 (house and 4a)
?-1863 = Andrew McMeekin from John McCawley
1863-1867 = Andrew McMeekin from Robert McAuley
1867-1876 = Andrew McMeekin from Edward Killen
1876- = Andrew McMeekin from James McCurdy
#36 (119a)
1867-1876 = Edward Killen from Reps Jane Price
1876-1890 = James McCurdy from Reps Jane Price
1890- = Reps James McCurdy from Reps Jane Price
Property #33 (169a) was split into #33 (50a) and #36 (119a) around 1867 – probably something to do with the Larne-Ballymena railway line which looks to have been there by about 1877?
The Edward Killen who had #36 for a while was probably Edward (1833-1909), son of Edward Killen of Glenville. He emigrated to Australia in 1876 which fits with the above.
-
There are plenty of gaps where a William Killen could fit, but not enough sources to place him.
Children of James Killen and Blanche Brice (as far as I know, mostly based on Ted Marr’s tree):
Thomas Killen (c1765-1812) m. Margaret Armstrong:
- John c1797-1851
- Samuel c1802-1854
- Ellenor c1805-1871
- (three others who died young)
John Killen (c1767-1828) m. Martha Dool
(we’ve already sort of ruled him out because his son William probably married too late to be the father of Ellen)
William Killen [unproven] (c1768-?) m. Margaret Finlay?
Edward Killen (c1773-?) ...?
James Killen (c1775-?) ...?
It doesn’t seem like anyone knows anything about Edward or James. The William Killen who married Margaret Finlay may or may not be the William baptised son of James Killen and Blanche Brice. Assuming he was, he might be the father or grandfather of Ellen Brice Killen...?
It’s also possible that Thomas Killen and Margaret Armstrong had another son, a William born c1800 who may have been the father of Ellen Brice Killen...?
-
Snaptoo, I take it “Nellie” is Ellen Lempriere Deane? Do you know if she had any family or when she died?
I’m afraid I don’t yet have much experience of tracing people in England, so probably can’t add much to what you know of your Deanes over there. :-\
Thanks to the link to the Wilson (etc) site – I’d forgotten about its existence.
I’ve no objections if someone wants to split the thread by the way.
-
Hi, You have:
John GILBERT m. Sarah DOUGLAS
- Anne b. c1830/1835?
Now I am related by marriage to John Earls RUTHERFORD who married Sarah Francis GILBERT, hence my interest.
From the 1910 & 1920 USA census records for John & Sarah, who were living in Kings, Brooklyn, New York, an Annie PAUL, Sister in Law & Widow, born Ireland, was also living with them. In the 1910 she was 79 & in the 1920, 87. I assume this is the Annie GILBERT son of John above. In the 1900 USA Census, Annie (65) was shown living in New York with Husband, William PAUL age 72, born Ireland.
Regards, Peter
-
Yea, that's Annie, daughter of John Gilbert and Sarah Douglas, and sister of Sarah Frances who married John Earls Rutherford.
I haven't done much on Sarah and John Rutherford. They married at Holywood Church on the 18th Feb 1873. John was from Manorhamilton (Co Leitrim), and that's where all their children appear to have been born. Sarah is mentioned in the wills of Robert Douglas and her great aunt Mary Falloon.
This is what I have on Annie and William:
[BNL 9 Apr 1830]
At Lurgan, on the 29th ultime, the Lady of Mr. John Gilbert, of a daughter.
[BNL 20 Nov 1849]
Nov. 16, in Lurgan Church, by the Rev. CHarles Faloon, Ann, eldest daughter of John Gilbert, Esq., to Mr Wm Paul, of the firm of Paul & Co, both of Lurgan.
William Wentworth Paul went bankrupt in 1862, along with his brother John Thomas Paul. He absconded to British Columbia (c1862) and they moved to the US in about 1870, I think (see below).
1880 US Census
William W Paul and Annie Paul living in New York City with a ?James Johnson (aged 39). William aged 59, Annie 50. Birth places Ireland across the board for Annie and William, which fits. He's a clerk.
1900 US Census???
William W Paul and Annie Paul living in Manhattan, New York. Birth places Ireland across the board, which fits. DoBs 1828 and 1835 which is a bit out. Immigration in 1855 which is definitely wrong. Could be lying? Why? He's a clerk (dry goods).
New York Times, 18 Dec 1906:
PAUL: On Dec. 16, at his late residence, 109 West 132d St. Funeral private. Interment at Greenwood.
[According to the Green-Wood burial search he was buried in March 1907. Why the delay? Was he moved? Buried in lot 32534 along with wife Annie (Gilbert) Paul.]
1910 US Census
Annie living in Brooklyn with Rutherfords. Widow. Immigration 1860.
1920 US Census
Annie living with her sister Sarah and brother-in-law John Rutherford in Brooklyn, New York in 1920. Year of immigration to the US given as 1870. Newspaper reports say William Wentworth Paul went to British Columbia in about 1862 - so did they live in Canada for 8 years before moving?
The Brooklyn Daily Eagle, New York, 7 Jun 1925
PAUL: Suddenly, on June 6, at her home, 231 Hancock st., in her 95th year, Annie Gilbert, widow of William Wentworth Paul. Funeral private.
Anything else you can add? Or anything else you'd like to know that I might know?
-
1900 US Census???
William W Paul and Annie Paul living in Manhattan, New York. Birth places Ireland across the board, which fits. DoBs 1828 and 1835 which is a bit out. Immigration in 1855 which is definitely wrong. Could be lying? Why? He's a clerk (dry goods).
It can be hard to remember the exact year of something that happened roughly 50 years earlier. I think forgetfulness is more likely than deceit. Also someone else might have given the information and just guessed at it.
[According to the Green-Wood burial search he was buried in March 1907. Why the delay? Was he moved?
Maybe the ground was too frozen to bury him until the spring thaw.
-
Oh, good points. The one about the Spring thaw would never have occurred to me :P Thanks
-
Pablo, I’m afraid I’ve drawn a bit of a blank with these McAuleys.
I see James McAuley lived in ‘Ardymagh’ which I guess must be “Big Ardymagh” at the northern end of Ballynashee. Unfortunately the Griffith’s map on Askaboutireland doesn’t have the plots numbered, but it looks like the McAuleys probably lived within a mile of my ancestor Edward Killen at Glenville, Jockeysquarter.
Pablo1, this might be relevant to your McAuley-Killen link...? I've just found a "George MacAuley, Glenville" among a list of people granted certificates for killing game in the District of Ballymena in 1816. I wonder if that was the same Glenville as my ancestor Edward Killen ended up living in.
[EDIT: By chance, another - Alex McAuley Esq, Glenville voted in the 1776 Antrim elections.]
I've also copied out a passage from W.D. Killen's book which explains how the Killens inherited land in Glenwherry:
Early in life, and with a very small capital, my father [John Killen] began trading on his own account. Shortly afterwards he married Martha Dool, my mother, who was then only nineteen years of age. She was an efficient helpmate, as she was gifted with strong common sense; and she proved an excellent housekeeper. She was born in Duneane, where her father was a farmer; but when very young children, she and a brother, William -- after whom I was named -- were taken away to Glenwhirry, to live with two old uncles and aunts who had never married, and who had made up their minds to adopt them as their heirs. They occupied a valuable farm in the heart of the glen, along with some hundreds of acres of mountainous land in the vicinity, all held in perpetuity at little more than a nominal rent; and all well stocked with cows and horses, bullocks and sheep. These old people were nearly allied by birth to some of the most considerable families in adjacent parishes, and mingled freely with the gentry around them. My mother's marriage had the sanction of her parents, who were still living; but it was by no means agreeable to her uncles in Glenwhirry. They thought that as she was a handsome young woman, with the prospect of a comfortable dowry, she was entitled to a better match than a youth of slender means, who had recently commenced business as a grocer and seedsman in the town of Ballymena. For some time after her marriage they utterly refused to recognise her; but when they saw that her young husband prospered in business, and that he had acquired a reputation as a person of superior intelligence, of soundmorals and sterling principle, they became more placable. In the end my mother's children inherited all the property of their kinsmen in Glenwhirry.
I think the uncle and aunts where Millars (their sister Martha Millar having married Jesse Dool). They, in turn, may have got the land from their mother, described in an appendix as "Martha Reid, heiress of Reidstown, Glenwherry."
-
Snaptoo, I take it “Nellie” is Ellen Lempriere Deane? Do you know if she had any family or when she died?
I’m afraid I don’t yet have much experience of tracing people in England, so probably can’t add much to what you know of your Deanes over there. :-\
Thanks to the link to the Wilson (etc) site – I’d forgotten about its existence.
I’ve no objections if someone wants to split the thread by the way.
:-[ :-[ Profuse apologies MFGilbert - it would appear that I have overlooked replying to your post :-[ :-[
I am sorry, but I know nothing other than she was called Nellie. My father died in May 1976, which was long before I started even thinking about FH, so never thought to ask him about his Aunt. There is nobody left on his side of the family that I am aware of, so I have no-one to ask :( :(
Once again, apologies for the tardy reply :-[
snaptoo
-
Hi, no worries. I was just checking over your information again. Maybe you know more since you posted, but you said you didn’t know when James Killen Deane married Gladys Lloyd – well according to Ancestry it was on the 15th January 1911, although having looked at the record image I don’t see where the date is written. Gladys was apparently of the Parish of Emmanuel.
Gladys’s parents were John Roger Lloyd and Ellen. Going by the census their children were:
c1872 John Woodward Lloyd
c1874 Edith Ellen Annette Lloyd
c1876 Beatrice Alice Lloyd
c1877 Arthur Llewellyn Lloyd
c1885 Gladys Gwendoline Lloyd
There’s a Burch family tree on Ancestry – it has the mother’s name as Ellen Woodward. Apparently daughter Edith married Richard James Brandon Burch.
I haven’t found out anything else about your great aunt Ellen Lapriere Deane – I don’t know what happened to her :(
-
Oh dear :-[ I seem to be making a habit of failing to reply to your posts :-[ Profuse apologies once again ::)
Unfortunately, FH is having to take a back seat - at least for the time being - but I will at least make comment on your post!............
I now know more about my grandmother than I ever did before!
The surname Burch rings a VERY vague bell, but have not got a clue why ??? ::)
Thanks for your help
snaptoo
-
This family is probably connected somehow to James McAuley of Ardymaugh (c. 1809-1874) who was married to Ellen Brice Killen (c. 1820-1889), buried Glenwherry Presbyterian Graveyard.
1901-the following family was living at 43 Ballinahsee, Rashee and in 1911 at 15 Ballinashee:
1. John McCauley, b. abt 1849 m. Margaret Killen, b. abt. 1861
2. William McCauley, b. abt. 1884
2. Ellen McCauley, b. abt. 1885
2. James McCauley, b. abt. 1887
2. John McCauley, b. abt. 1888
2. Jane McCauley, b. abt. 1891
2. Edward McCauley, b. abt. 1893; this Edward possibley married in 1928 at Gardenmore Presbyterian Church to Margaret Robinson, daughter of Robert Robinson of Larne.
2. Francis McCauley, b. abt. 1894
2. Robert McCauley, b. abt. 1895
2. Elizabeth M. (Lizzie Annie in 1901) McCauley, b. abt. 1897
2. Maggie (Margaret)McCauley, b. abt. 1898
2. Rachel McCauley, b. abt. 1899
2. Catherine McCauley, b. abt. 1901
2. Agnes McCauley, b. abt. 1902
2. David McCauley, b. abt. 1903
2. Thomas McCauley, b. abt. 1906
-
Hi
I have the Douglas lineage for this family. If you'd like access send me a PM would love to share.
Jenni
-
Hi Jenni,
Don’t worry, you sent me a link to the Douglas tree back when we last spoke.
It’s interesting you messaged today actually because I was thinking about the Gilbert-Douglas family yesterday. Recently I visited PRONI with a Gilbert cousin from Canada. We looked up a couple of leases to Gilberts in Lurgan.
One was an 1825 document referring to “the Blackhole Tenement” in Lurgan. A Henry Gilbert had just obtained permission from the Brownlows to extend his property in the centre of Lurgan:
Henry Gilbert who claims the premises granted by the lease of 1717 and lastly renewed in 1785, a few months ago obtained permission from the present Mr. Brownlow to build not only on this part which he claims as a passage to the Black hole but to extend the building to 25 feet more upon that part of the ground where on the old market house stood in order to throw a proper front toward the entrance to the town, and to make what he calls a decent finish to that part of the street and under such permission he, the said Gilbert began about a month ago to lay down materials and to excavate the grounds for the foundation of the intended building. But a few days ago he was served with a notice by one Robert Trails, who lives in the house opposite to the ground which has been excavated and whose house would certainly be affected by the intended erection than any of the others cautioning him the said Gilbert from proceeding wherewith and him digging up or disturbing the street of said town.
I believe this Henry Gilbert (by his wife Ann Douglas) is the father of the John Gilbert who married Sarah Douglas. Henry died in 1847 aged 90 and his wife Ann died in 1828 aged 69.
The plot mentioned had been in the Gilbert family since at least 1703 when it is shown on a map of the town. The 1717 lease refers to:
That piece of ground in the town of Lurgan which formerly was a passage to the Black-Hole bounded by the house of Jonathan Gilberts father to said Jonathan on the one side, by the market house shop then in the possession of Mich Quin and his tenant on the other side by the Market-House stairs on the back and on the front by the street.
From the names in the leases we know Jonathan Gilbert senior had a wife called Ann, and they had sons (among others) Jonathan and Stephen. Jonathan junior had sons Henry, Jonathan and Thomas, also a daughter “Frances Gilbert of Castle Blayney in the County of Monaghan” who was aged about 15 in 1748. (Jonathan senior died around about 1717 and Jonathan junior died about 1747.)
Henry (son of Jonathan junior) had a son called John who was apparently a clothier, aged about 10, of Lonegrew (?) in County Meath in 1748. What was he doing away over there??
Assuming the Henry Gilbert mentioned in the 1825 document is “Henry Gilbert of Lurgan, yarn merchant” (c1757-1847) then I think this proves he was a descendant of Jonathan and Ann Gilbert who we think arrived in Lurgan in about the 1690s and are mentioned in Quaker records.
If I had to take a (somewhat unsubstantiated) guess I’d say Henry the yarn merchant was son of John, son of Henry, son of Jonathan, son of Jonathan and Ann.
-
Does anyone know anything about the “Black Hole” in Lurgan? We’re thinking it must have been a solitary confinement pit for prisoners, possibly underneath the old market house. This is another extract from the 1825 document:
The Premises above demesed were as in said lease expressed “the passage to the Black hole” which was situate underneath the then market house of Lurgan and on or about the month of June 1776 the same, together with the Market House were burned to the ground and the entire piece of ground where on the said Market House stood, as also the premises above demised, However since remained open and unoccupied in any way by Mr. Brownlow or any of his ancestors or agency of the persons claiming under the aforesaid lease. But the same have been used from the year 1776 until the present time as part of the street of Lurgan for the exhibition of the several goods wares and merchandise brought to that town on Market days and four days for sale same as hereafter is mentioned.
Belfast Newsletter, 14-18th Jun 1776:
On Saturday morning a fire broke out in Lurgan, which burned with such violence as in a very short space to consume two good dwelling houses, and the Market-house, to the ground.
-
I am interest in the following Douglas family: Surgeon William Douglas married Margaret Cuppage.
Does anyone know what happened to the children from this marriage, aside from their son who became a doctor and married into the Fulton family of Lisburn.
-
Pablo send me a pm with your email. I'll need to dig but I have a little more information (not a lot). Have you seen the PRONI doc for Dr William Douglas? Family requesting that some one local to Lurgan care for Dr William? I think I have s death for a sister of William ( or daughter).
Jenni
-
What time frames are you both talking about?
-
Gilby, if you mean the William Douglas family, I am looking at the years from about 1780 ~. However, this research is not as important as the Macaulay-Killen connection. I haven't heard much from relatives about how far they can go back regarding their Macaulay lineage. Still waiting. If I come across anything new, I will make a post.
-
I would be interested if you can find something new on the Killen-Macaulay connection.
In the meantime, here are extracts from the Ulster Directory of Doctors on Lurgan Douglases.
DOUGLAS, WILLIAM S. (d 1842), Naval Medical Service and Lurgan, county Armagh;
LAH DUB 1809; joined the Naval Medical Service as assistant surgeon; apothecary and surgeon of Lurgan; member of the Belfast Medical Society from 1825; died 8 May 1842 at his home in Lurgan. [Apothecaries (1829); BNL 13 May 1842 (d); Bradshaw (1819); Malcolm (1851); Pigot (1824)]
DOWGLASS, WILLIAM (1742/3-1812), Lurgan, county Armagh;
Born 1742/3; surgeon and apothecary, of Lurgan; died 1 January 1812; “in the arduous duties of a professional life was honoured with the esteem and confidence of a generous public.’ [BNL 7 January 1812 (d)]
DOUGLAS(S), JOHN CUPPAGE (1778-1850), Dublin;
Born 1778 in Lurgan, county Armagh, son of a general practitioner of Lurgan; served 5 years’ apprenticeship to his father; studied medicine at Trinity College, Dublin, and Edinburgh; LRCSI 1800; LAH Dub 1800; MD (St. Andrews) 1803 (on testimonials); LKQCPI 1810; FKQCPI (hon) 1832; surgeon to the Militia Regiment of Foot in county Tipperary; obstetrician in Dublin; assistant master of the Rotunda Hospital 1808-12; with Joseph Clarke he ‘laid the foundations of the high repute of Dublin as a school of midwifery’ (Wilde); of 16 Rutland Square East; author of various medical papers; married 23 January 1817 in Lisburn, Elizabeth Fulton (who was born 1783), second daughter of Joseph Fulton, solicitor and merchant, of Lisburn, and Ann Graham of Lisburn; died 20 November 1850 at 16 Rutland Square East; probate Prerogative Court 1850. [Apothecaries (1829), BNL 28 January 1817 (m); Croly (1843-6); Crone (1928); Dub Nat Arch, Prerog Wills index; Hope (1903); Kirkpatrick Archive; Kirkpatrick and Jellet (1913); Newmann (1993); O’Doherty (2002); Smart (2004); Widdes (1963)]
Is John a son of your Dr William Douglas and Margaret Cuppage, if he’s about the right age?
-
Yes, John Cuppage Douglas is one of their sons. However, I don't have anything on William S. It looks as though he might be a son or a close relation. I will keep my eyes open for any new information on the Killen-Macaulay connection. My father really didn't know that much about his ancestry. However, he once told me that some relation had gone to Australia and acquired a lot of land. I have checked the Macaulays, the Robinsons and the Higgins. None of them had acquired much land in Australia except for the Killens. I can only wonder, then, if long ago there had been some discussion in my dad's family about their distant relations who had done well down under.
-
In support of Gilby's speculation:
"If I had to take a (somewhat unsubstantiated) guess I’d say Henry the yarn merchant was son of John, son of Henry, son of Jonathan, son of Jonathan and Ann."
Lurgan Town Rental List 1763-1766 (http://www.lurganancestry.com/lurgand1763p1.htm)
John Gilbert for tenement next to market house. Renewable for £1:8:0. 1738 for the life of Henry McClatchy, son of Samuel. He died lately in artillery.
-
I believe this Henry Gilbert (by his wife Ann Douglas) is the father of the John Gilbert who married Sarah Douglas. Henry died in 1847 aged 90 and his wife Ann died in 1828 aged 69.
I checked George Douglas Gilbert and Helena Harpur's marriage certificate yesterday and this give George's father as 'John Gilbert, Gentleman'. This may already have been established, but I haven't seen it amongst the posts. Also, there is another son of George and Helena who has not been mentioned - Henry Edward Gilbert. He was born in Liverpool on 14th Dec 1875 (I have the birth certificate) and emigrated to Canada, where he died in 1912; he was a Methodist Preacher. A granddaughter of his had her DNA analysed by 'ancestry' and it came up with a match to me and my father (4th to 6th cousin, confidence 'high' to my father and 'good' to me). We are descended from Henry Gilbert and Ann Douglas (through their daughter Anne, who married William Hamilton) and if the John Gilbert who married Sarah Douglas is the son of Henry Gilbert and Ann Douglas (the circumstantial evidence is very strong), this would make Henry Edward Gilbert's granddaughter my 4th cousin once removed. I haven't seen any other names in her ancestry that suggest the DNA link is through another family. Thus the DNA evidence strongly supports the circumstantial evidence that the John Gilbert who married Sarah Douglas was the son of Henry (c1757-1847).
-
Ted, that is significant news. DNA may well be the only means to prove suspected connections. My dad has tested via Familytree DNA and we have also shared this information with GEDmatch.
I am hoping to prove my Douglas line connects with George Douglass of Dougher (Lurgen). He is the father of Sarah Douglas. To date we haven't found a surviving male Douglas to the line, so a family finder match may help to answer that question (although the number of generations between my Dad's line and George's line can make this hard to prove even in DNA). Have you or this other match shared your results ith GEDmatch?
-
Hi Jenni - agreed, the DNA matching gets less useful as the generation distances increase and, it seems to me, there was quite a lot of intermarrying between families at that time, so one can never be quite sure if a link is through a known/likely historical route or an unknown one. Yes, my DNA is on GEDmatch. Best, Ted
-
Hi Gilby and TedG
I was looking over my Dad's Familyfinder matches and found lady who also has Gilbert Linneage - I contacted her and here is what she says:
My great grandmother was Jane Gilbert from Ballinacor Seagoe Co Armagh. She married Robert Murphy. Her father was Jonathan Gilbert b 1823 died 1896.
Seagoe, as you probably know, borders Shankill. From what I can tell of the linneage that you shared with me, this Jonathan won't be descended from either of the Douglas - Gilbert marriages we have. Do you know who he is? I don't know if Gilbert is how I (well my dad) matches with her, but interesting that she is from our area (genealogy wise).
TedG would you look on Gedmatch and see if we have any amount of a match? Look for W & J Douglas.
J
-
Hi Jenni,
Jonathan Gilbert (1823-1896) was the son of Thomas Gilbert (c1782-1877) and Sarah Forsyth. I do not know who Thomas’ parents were, but y-DNA tests have proved this Gilbert family is the same as the other Gilberts of Lurgan/Aghagallon.
Thomas Gilbert and Sarah Forsyth had:
William Gilbert (c1805-1877) m. (1849) Anne Anderson (c1820-1904)
Thomas Gilbert (c1806-1888) m. Sarah Pedlow (1807-1880) – went to Australia
Annie Gilbert (c1807-?)
Jane Gilbert (c1808-1879) m. (1834) William Vaughan (c1805-1886)
Richard Gilbert (c1814-1891) m. (1855) Sarah Gilbert* (1816-1876)
Sarah Gilbert (c1817-1882) m. Alexander Humphreys – went to New Zealand
Jonathan Gilbert (c1823-1896) m. (1854) Mary Gaskin
James Gilbert (c1824-1906) m. Eliza Jane Gilbert* (1819-1891) – went to New Zealand
*Sarah Gilbert and Eliza Jane Gilbert were daughters of Stephen Gilbert (c1780-1836) and Anne Jane Jones (c1785-1861) of Aghagallon.
Gilby
-
I managed to get to PRONI before Christmas and looked up more of the leases I mentioned on page 7 of this thread. In these leases it is not always clear to me whether they are referring to the “Middle Row Tenement” (original lease of 1695 to Jonathan Gilbert who built a house there) or the “Passageway to the Black Hole Tenement” (original lease of 1717 to Jonathan, son of Jonathan Gilbert). I’ve just put everything in chronological order.
In 1695 Jonathan Gilbert (carpenter) got a lease of a plot in the centre of Lurgan from Arthur Brownlow (otherwise Chamberlain). Jonathan was “of Derrynashee” (Derrynaseer) which is a townland near Aghagallon (where some of the family still is to this day).
The property was adjoining the northwest end of the market house, 20 feet long and the same width as the market house, leaving a 6 foot gap for stairs up to the loft of the market house and also access to the black hole (now confirmed as a prison) underneath the market house. The lease was for the lives of Jonathan’s wife Ann and their two sons Stephen and Jonathan Gilbert.
In 1717 Jonathan Gilbert II took out a lease for the passageway between the market house and the house that had been built by his father. Jonathan Gilbert I (the father) is not stated to be deceased, so he may still have been living (the 1713 prerogative will may be the date of the will, not the date of the probate? A separate lease of 1721 confirms Jonathan senior was definitely dead by then).
This is the tenement known as the “passageway to the black hole.” The lease was for the lives of Jonathan, his brother Stephen and mother Ann (the same as the 1695 lease). I think Jonathan must have built a house or shop over the passageway between the market house and his father’s house.
By 1738 Stephen Gilbert, one of the lives in the lease, had died (he died in about December 1737). Stephen’s brother Jonathan paid the 5 shilling fine to insert the life of Jacob Kirk, son of John Kirk of Lurgan, merchant. Three feet were also added to the length of the Middle Row property and the rent was therefore increased from 20 shillings to 1 pound 3 shillings (1 shilling per foot).
In 1748 Ann Gilbert (the mother) and Jonathan Gilbert junior were deceased. Henry Gilbert, Jonathan Gilbert and Thomas Gilbert (all sons of the late Jonathan Gilbert II) had become entitled to the property (Black Hole Tenement, possibly also the Middle Row one?), presumably by their father’s will (pr. will indexed 1747).
The brothers nominated the lives of Frances Gilbert of Castleblayney, Co Monaghan, daughter of “the aforesaid Jonathan deceased” (Jonathan Gilbert II) aged about 15; and John Gilbert, son of “the aforesaid Henry Gilbert of Linegrew in the County of Meath Clothior” aged about ten years.
Continued on next post...
-
In June 1776 a fire broke out which consumed “two good dwelling houses, and the market house”. One or both of the houses were the Gilberts’. After this the space left by the buildings on the Black Hole Tenement and the site of the Market House was used by traders on market and fair days as somewhere to display their ways. (The Middle Row tenement was rebuilt between 1785 and 1818 – see below.)
In July 1776, a lease was signed between Jonathan Gilbert and Patrick Caulfield. Jonathan let to Patrick “all that tenement now in his possession … in the town or Lurgan, Middle Row near the Market House”. The lease was from the “twenty fifth day of March last”. There is no mention of the fire or any damage.
In 1785 there was another renewal of the Black Hole lease. Jacob Kirk had died and Frances Gilbert had married John Turner of Lurgan (who is later described as a shoemaker). By a “mesne assignment” John Turner had become entitled to the premises contained in the original lease. He nominated the life of Henry Gilbert, son of “the late Jonathan Gilbert of Lurgan”, aged 25 years, to be inserted in the place of Jacob Kirk. The other two lives were still John Gilbert and Frances Turner (née Gilbert).
[Could this Henry Gilbert, aged ~25 in 1785, be the same Henry Gilbert of Lurgan who died in 1847 aged ~90? And did John Turner renew the lease for the Black Hole tenement even though it was derelict and unused?]
On the back of the lease there are notes which say that “Francis Turner died about the middle of 1799 about[?] July” and “John Gilbert son of Henry Gilbert of Lisnagrew died 20th March 1815”.
In 1818 Jonathan Gilbert of Castleblaney sought a renewal of the plot of ground described in the 1695 lease (the Middle Row tenement, not including the Passageway to the Black Hole). Jonathan was “by mesne assignment or otherwise … in possession of all and singular the aforesaid premises”. Because all the original lives had died, Jonathan nominated his three brothers, “John Gilbert now of the age of twenty years or thereabouts, Henry Gilbert aged sixteen years or thereabouts and Thomas Gilbert aged fourteen years or thereabouts, all of or near Castleblayney”.
This 1818 lease mentioned that “the late John Turner of Lurgan shoemaker built and erected a dwelling house of stone and lime and lately dwelt and resided therein until the time of his decease”.
In 1825, Henry Gilbert, “who claims the premises granted by the least of 1717 and lastly renewed in 1785”. This was the Black Hole Tenement, and Henry Gilbert had obtained permission from the Brownlows to build a new house/shop which was to extend twenty feet out onto what was the site of the old market house. He wanted to “throw a proper front towards the entrance of the town, and to make what he calls a decent finish to that part of the street”.
In about June 1825 Henry started work on the new building by laying down materials and excavating the foundations. However, on the 26th July he received a letter from his neighbour Robert Trail saying, “take notice that I hereby caution you against digging up or otherwise disturbing that part of the public street…”
Brownlow wanted to honour his agreement with Henry Gilbert but at the same time did not want to upset Robert Trail or the other inhabitants, so he (or his agent) wrote to seek the opinion of George Tomb (solicitor?). Tomb wrote back and summarised that neither the Gilberts nor the Brownlows had done anything with the property since the fire of 1776 and that “49 years is quite sufficient to establish a public right, and that the premises must be considered part of the street, consequently that any person erected buildings upon it will be liable to an indictment for a nuisance.” He went on to said that “Mr Gilbert thro’ whose negligence (or the negligence of his ancestors)” had failed to act upon the property, but he “may very well contest the matter with Mr Trail, and it may be worth his while to try the experiment.” Other than this George Tomb advised Brownlow not to get involved.
There’s nothing to say whether or not Henry Gilbert managed to complete his building and as far as I can see there are no more leases after 1825.
-
Questions to be solved…
Who was Henry Gilbert of Linegrew/Lonegrew and what became of him? Where is Linegrew/Lonegrew – and is it really in County Meath, or could that be a mistake for Co Monaghan? He had a son John who was born in about 1738 and died in 1815.
The 1785 renewal refers to “Henry Gilbert, son of the late Jonathan Gilbert of Lurgan” who was aged about 25 at the time. This Jonathan was not the first Jonathan Gilbert (who died before 1721) or his son the second Jonathan Gilbert (who died before 1748).
Both Stephen and Jonathan, sons of the first Jonathan Gilbert, had sons called Jonathan. The Middle Row property held by Jonathan Gilbert (the first) and the Black Hole Tenement both appear to have come down Jonathan Gilbert (the second’s) side of the family*, so I guess Jonathan mentioned in 1785 is son of Jonathan, son of Jonathan?
(*There is a 1721 lease of a property in Middle Row to Stephen Gilbert and his widow Christian (or Christon), but I think this was on the other side of Jonathan Gilbert (the first’s) house.)
Was Henry born c1760 the same Henry Gilbert, yarn merchant, “one of the last of the old Irish Volunteers” who died aged 90 in 1847? And is it the same man who tried to build a new shop/house on what was the Black Hole Tenement in Lurgan in 1825?
Who was Jonathan Gilbert of Caslteblayney and his three brothers John, Henry and Thomas? Who was their father?
-
TedG-H,
Thanks for pointing out I was missing Henry Edward Gilbert? Would you be able to send me the image of the birth certificate?
Ted and Jenni,
I've got my Dad's family finder results on Gedmatch too, so I'd like to compare to yours out of curiosity. We're not descended from the Gilbert-Douglas branch so we might be too distant to show up as a match. (Ted I think you can now or will soon have enough posts clocked up to be able to send private messages.)
-
I apologize - I'm guessing you will need my dad's kit # for Gedmatch: - T730402
Jenni