RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => New Zealand => New Zealand Completed Requests => Topic started by: apanderson on Saturday 07 September 13 22:02 BST (UK)
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Hi Everyone,
I'm looking for some pointers please.
Whilst helping a friend with some family research, I came across a Death Notice in the Glasgow Herald Newspaper (of January 25th 1909) as follows:
"Paul. At Palmerston, Otago, New Zealand, on the 16th December 1908, William Paul (late of Drumbeg, Killearn, Stirlingshire), in his 80th year."
I then found an 'In Memoriam' notice in the Otago Daily Times, Issue 17809, 16th December 1919:
"Paul. In fond and loving memory of William Paul, who died at Palmerston South, December 16th 1908. Inserted by his loving grand-daughter, Jean E. Cook."
On the BMD Online site, I found his death (my friend is about to purchase the certificate).
We would like to find out more about William's life in NZ if possible and also about his descendants but haven't a clue how to go about searching NZ records, so any suggestions gratefully received.
Additionally, are there any online burial/cemetery records for the immediate area we could search?
Thanks for reading, I'm keeping my fingers crossed!
Anne :)
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Hi Anne,
Can you confirm that he was born in Scotland? There is a man of that name born in 1832 in Ireland who fought in the New Zealand Wars.
In 1876/77 a William PAUL appeared on the Bruce electoral roll (Otago) living at Helensbrook.
In 1877 a William PAUL appeared on the Roslyn electoral roll (Otago) living at Caversham.
There's an 1882 school record for a child named William PAUL born in 1875 being admitted to Palmerston School: father also named William PAUL. Their address was 'Palmerston.'
Spades
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...also an identical school record for a Robert George PAUL, born 1876.
I suspect the William Paul on the electoral rolls above is a different individual, there was also a namesake living at New Plymouth.
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Hi Spades,
Many thanks for your speedy reply!
Yes, William was definately born in Scotland.
The entry of 16th February 1830 the Killearn OPR's reads:
"William, lawful son of John Paul, farmer in Cariston and Margaret Moir his spouse was born 16th February last and baptised 7th March thereafter."
In the 1841 & 1851 Census Returns the family are recorded at Drumbeg Farm, Killearn.
Anne :)
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On the BMD Online site, I found his death (my friend is about to purchase the certificate).
Hello Anne
Just in case your friend has not yet purchased the "certificate" .... our recommendation here in NZ, is that the printout of the death record be purchased - (rather than a certificate). [A printout is a copy of the actual register entry and contains the maximum amount of information available ... happily it is also a less expensive option than a cert.] ;)
~ Lu
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Thank you very much for that info Lu.
I'll let him know asap.
Anne :)
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Hi Anne
At PapersPast > death and funeral notices, which indicate William had a wife named Elizabeth, and that he was to be buried at the Palmerston (Otago) Cemetery.
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz
"Otago Daily Times" - 17 December 1908
- Death Notice on page 6
- Funeral Notice ~ page 6, column 3
~ Lu
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Fantastic!!
Thank you!
Anne :)
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Possible New Zealand Marriage ?
William PAUL -- Elizabeth PORTER -- 1863
Unfortunately our online BDM indexes, don't give "places of events". I'll do some further digging though to see if above is likely to be "your man".
~ Lu
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Thanks for confirming that, Anne. :)
I found another two children:
School Records:
Name: Jane PAUL
School: Palmerston
Admitted: 19 Jan 1890
Birthdate: 30 Sept 1871
Parent: William PAUL
Address: Palmerston
School Records:
Name: Alexander PAUL
School: Palmerston
Admitted: 24 Jan 1887
Birthdate: 20 May 1879
Last Day: 19 Dec 1895
Parent: William PAUL
Address: Palmerston
Destination: Dunedin (Customs)
I have no idea what ‘Customs’ might relate to, other than a possible place of work.
Be very wary of dates of birth given in these school records; they were often incorrect. You should confirm them using NZ BDM https://www.bdmhistoricalrecords.dia.govt.nz/search/
Spades
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This is just fantastic - thank you VERY much!!
Unfortunately it's bed-time here so I'll have plenty to think about to keep me wide awake tonight!
Anne :)
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Hi Anne
If the William PAUL you are seeking, did in fact marry in NZ, then the 1863 marriage (to Elizabeth PORTER), seems a likely match, in that it took place in Otago.
From the index of Presbyterian Marriages (In Otago and Southland), the following :
Knox Presbyterian Church - Dunedin
Date: 7 August 1863
William PAUL - full age
Elizabeth PORTER - no age shown
~ Lu
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One last thank you to Lucy before I shut down!
I should perhaps have mentioned that Margaret Moir, William's mother died young and in 1840, his father remarried an Elisabeth who is listed as his wife in 1841 & 1851. (We've still to confirm her maiden name)
Anne :)
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I have tabulated the information relating to the first children I listed above, plus some new information. William was a farmer.
School Records:
Name: Robert George PAUL
School: Palmerston
Admitted: 14 Jan 1884
Birthdate: 20 Oct 1876
Last Day: -
Parent: William PAUL
Address: Palmerston
Destination: -
School Records:
Name: Robert PAUL
School: Palmerston
Admitted: 16 Jan 1884
Birthdate: 20 Oct 1876
Last Day: 7 Sept 1890
Parent: William PAUL
Address: Palmerston
Destination: -
I think this is the same child as above.
School Records:
Name: William PAUL
School: Palmerston
Admitted: 23 Jan 1882
Birthdate: 23 Dec 1875
Last Day: -
Parent: William PAUL
Address: Shag valley
Destination: -
School Records:
Name: William PAUL
School: Palmerston
Admitted: 23 Jan 1882
Birthdate: 23 Dec 1875
Last Day: - 17 Dec 1891
Parent: William PAUL
Address: Shag valley
Destination: Home Duties
Moeraki Electoral Roll. (Otago Nominal Index http://marvin.otago.ac.nz/oni/default.html)
Name: William PAUL
Address: Palmerston
Date: 1883-84
Occupation: Farmer
Age: over 20
Comment: residential
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From Papers Past, "In Memoriam" notices in 'The Otago Daily Times' we learn that William Paul had a grand-daughter named Jean E.* COOK.
See newspapers dated 15.12.1917 & 16.12.1916. There were also insertions for other years.
*Also shown as Jean N. COOK in one edition.
Minniehaha.
POSTSCRIPT!!! Sorry, I now see that this information has already been provided..........
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May I butt in please
There's a current thread on the Australian Board re a William PAUL :) perhaps the two different OPs may be able to help each other's research
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=660511.0
Cheers, JM
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From Papers Past, "In Memoriam" notices in 'The Otago Daily Times' we learn that William Paul had a grand-daughter named Jean E.* COOK.
Hi Minnie
Pretty sure I've now found this grand-daughter ... will post further info later today. ;)
~ Lu
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Hi Anne
Just digressing slightly :D ... was there a "Robert PAUL" born circa 1835 (maybe a brother of William PAUL) ?
The following death notice was placed in the "Otago Witness" newspaper (the area in which William PAUL resided), in 1887.
"Otago Witness" - 19 August 1887 - page 20
PAUL - on 8 August at Greymouth, Westland, Robert PAUL, native of Killearn, Stirlingshire, Scotland; in his 52nd year. Stirling papers please copy.
~ Lu
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Hi folks,
Many, many, many thanks for all the information posted so far.
majm - I'll have a look at that link later, thank you.
Lucy - Yes, William did have a younger brother Robert, born 1835/36 at Drumbeg, Killearn.
I think I might have found them arriving in NZ (via Auckland City Library).
William Paul, aboard 'Belgravia', arriving May 10th 1861
Robert Paul, aboard 'Columbus', arriving October 10th 1864
I don't know how long the voyage would have taken from Scotland to New Zealand, but presumably he had left before 7th/8th April 1861 as we can't locate him on that census.
The last 'tentative' sighting of Robert was in 1861 as a Ploughman on a Farm in Lanarkshire.
Anne :)
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Lucy - Yes, William did have a younger brother Robert, born 1835/36 at Drumbeg, Killearn.
I think I might have found them arriving in NZ (via Auckland City Library).
William Paul, aboard 'Belgravia', arriving May 10th 1861
Robert Paul, aboard 'Columbus', arriving October 10th 1864
Hi Anne
Unfortunately there is an error on the Auckland Library website concerning the listing of "a William PAUL per ship "Belgravia" said to have arrived in Auckland on 10 May 1861".
The "Belgravia" actually arrived in Auckland on 10 May 1865 and all passengers (including William PAUL) are also listed in a newspaper article - "New Zealand Herald" (Auckland) - 11 May 1865.
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Robert PAUL - per "Columbus" (to Auckland, October 1864) ... appears to have been accompanied by an Elizabeth PAUL and (apparently) 3 females, all named Margaret PAUL ? (no ages or place of origin given unfortunately). "Daily Southern Cross" - 11 October 1864 - Port of Auckland, Miscellaneous :
~ Lu
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I then found an 'In Memoriam' notice in the Otago Daily Times, Issue 17809, 16th December 1919:
"Paul. In fond and loving memory of William Paul, who died at Palmerston South, December 16th 1908. Inserted by his loving grand-daughter, Jean E. Cook."
Hello Anne
I'm fairly certain that the grand-daughter Jean E. COOK, was the child of William and Elizabeth PAUL's daughter, Elizabeth.
NZ Birth
1867 - PAUL - Elizabeth
Parents: William and Elizabeth
NZ Marriage
Elizabeth PAUL -- Charles Lowen COOK -- 1893
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NZ Birth
1895 - COOK - Elizabeth Jane
Parents: Elizabeth and Charles
The name "Jean E." though, seems to be a "play" on the names she was given at birth -- "Elizabeth Jane". [Jean, as you probably know, is another form of the name Jane, and with a mother and grandmother both named "Elizabeth", the child likely was known by a diminutive of one of her christian names.]
Can confirm that she appears as Elizabeth Jane COOK, spinster, on the 1919 Oamaru electoral roll living with her parents (Elizabeth and Charles Lowen COOK) at Ronaldsay Street, Palmerston.
On that same roll, Elizabeth PAUL, widow*, Maggie PAUL*, spinster and Robert PAUL*, labourer, are also resident at Ronaldsay Street (with a similar listing in 1911).
[*Elizabeth PAUL = the widow of William PAUL, Maggie (Margaret) and Robert PAUL, children of William and Elizabeth.]
Elizabeth Jane COOK married a William CULLINAN in 1921. He died in 1931 and in 1935 & 1938, she is living back at Ronaldsay Street, Palmerston. Whether there were children of the CULLINAN union, is not known. I also have not yet found her death.
see next >>
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Jean E. COOK
Interestingly the memoriam notices for William PAUL (1914 and 1915) confirmed that Jean E. had four brothers :
Here are their births :
1894 - COOK - Charles William - s/o Elizabeth & Charles Louen [sic] COOK
1897 - COOK - Victor Alexander - s/o Elizabeth & Charles COOK
1901 - COOK - Robert George Craddock Montague - s/o Elizabeth & Charles Lowen COOK
1909 - COOK - Cyril Howden - s/o Elizabeth and Charles Lowen COOK
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Hi Anne
Will post further on William PAUL tomorrow. I'm still endeavouring to sort him out from another man of the same name. ;D
I suspect though that "your" William PAUL is probably the man who features in the newspapers as a champion ploughman (and later a judge of ploughing competitions).
Need also to confirm just who his children were (if possible) - can't see others who are researching this family. It all takes time. :D
~ Lu
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Wonderful stuff Lu - thank you!!!
All the offspring of this particular family had been put on hold for quite a while until I just happened to come across the wee snippet in the Glasgow Herald confirming William's death. Of course now .... they're number one on the agenda and I really don't know if we'd have got anywhere near the amount of info you (and others) have been kind enough to find for us.
The other Pauls you found arriving on the 'Columbus' are quite possibly William & Robert's siblings - there were quite a few of them and as yet, we haven't delved into their adventures.
The person whom I'm trying to help is the 1st cousin, 3 x removed of William Paul and he is absolutely over the moon with the response (and so am I)!
Anne :)
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Tried to send you a PM Lu and got a message saying you don't receive PM's?
Anne ???
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Yes sorry, no access to PM's in this forum.
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Lu -if posssible, could you post a link so we can see the info of all the Paul 'passengers please?
"Robert PAUL - per "Columbus" (to Auckland, October 1864) ... appears to have been accompanied by an Elizabeth PAUL and (apparently) 3 females, all named Margaret PAUL ? (no ages or place of origin given unfortunately). "Daily Southern Cross" - 11 October 1864 - Port of Auckland, Miscellaneous"
We might be able to figure out who they were by the usual 'process of elimination'
Anne :)
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Hi Anne,
Here is a link to the passenger list
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~shipstonz/PassLists/columbus1864.html
Cheers Janette
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With such a distinctive name, I couldn't resist having a look for some details about Robert George Craddock Montague COOK, born 1901.
In 1929 he married Vera Elizabeth KIRBY. His names were arranged as Robert George Montague Cradock COOK.
Robert George Craddock COOK died on 18.2.1953. Burial records show his occupation as that of Storekeeper. His wife died on 25.6.1973 aged 65 years.
Both buried @ Anderson's Bay cemetery, Dunedin. In the same plot: Robert William COOK, aged 40
years, died 24.9.1972. A chef, who died @ Queenstown.
Probate (1953) held @ Archives, Dunedin , for Robert George Montague Cradock, Butcher.
Minniehaha.
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Janette - thank you!
Are there original images anywhere that you know of?
Minniehaha - thank you too!
What a wonderful name RGCM Cook - couldn't have been too many of them around! ;D
Anne :)
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Lu -if posssible, could you post a link so we can see the info of all the Paul 'passengers please?
"Robert PAUL - per "Columbus" (to Auckland, October 1864) ... appears to have been accompanied by an Elizabeth PAUL and (apparently) 3 females, all named Margaret PAUL ? (no ages or place of origin given unfortunately). "Daily Southern Cross" - 11 October 1864 - Port of Auckland, Miscellaneous"
We might be able to figure out who they were by the usual 'process of elimination'
Anne :)
Hi Anne
The link given in Reply # 27, is of course just the passenger list transcription taken from the newspaper article I mentioned. That is possibly all the information available for the "Columbus" voyage, unfortunately ?
~ Lu
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Sorry Lu - I should have taken more notice of the info on your initial post.
I guess in all the excitement I missed that bit!
Anne :)
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Hi Anne
Also found this >
"Daily Southern Cross" (Auckland) - 11 October 1864 - Retrenchment - page 4
(quarter of way down column) * The ship "Columbus" .... the only deaths during the passage ... and Margaret PAUL, aged 2 years, who died on 27th July ...
[May help identify if this is likely to be your PAUL family group ? ]
~ Lu
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Thanks to everyone for input to this story,really good to be in contact and remembering good times in New Zealand:
The facts so far are:William Paul,B-16th Feb 1830,Carston Farm,Killearn,Scotland.
Death:16th Dec,1908,PalmerstonmOtago,New Zealand,have Scottish census for:1841,1851 Drumbeg Farm,Killearn,Scotland.
No Marriage found on Scottish records,did he arrive in New Zealand after 1851?,or was he the William Paul on the "Belgravia"vessel on 10th May 1865,Auckland arrivals,if he was his marriage in NZ will be following this arrival date?.
It seems Williams Brother,Robert Paul,B-16th Feb 1836,same location as William,Death,8th Aug 1887,Greymouth,Westland,NZ,notice in Otago Witness 19th Aug 1887.
Seeking arrivals/marriages/children of both in NZ.be gratefull for help.
jamesnpaul
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Hello jamesnpaul
... welcome.
Can you confirm please, are you the "cousin" Anne spoke of earlier for whom she was gathering this information on the PAUL family of Palmerston ? [I'm a tad confused as Anne has not yet replied to my last post on 9 September.]
Cheers.
~ Lu
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Hello Lu,
Many thanks for your mail,YES I am the person Anne mentioned,I am taking over from Anne,she is "over her head"with Ancestry work.
Be good if you can further assist with my search of William and Robert,
Be great if I could give you a invite,if you wish, to my "Paul" Ancestry.com work on the Family.
Regards,
James
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Hi everyone,
My apologies Lu - as James said, I'm knee deep with stuff.
No excuse for not replying though!
Thank you for all your help, we could never have come on this far without the help of kind folks on this board.
Anne :)
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Hi James and Anne
Thanks for the messages ... and clarification. :)
Have some further information for you - too late to post it right now - will add it tomorrow.
~ Lu
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Hi Lu,
Good to have your message,cannot wait to have your message tomorrow,many thanks for all your kind support and time,a big help.
My Grandmother,a Hamilton,had relatives in Otago since 1840,s,us Scots certainly travelled.
Every Good Wish,
James
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Hello Lu,
Robert Paul,(brother of William Paul)a 2 yr child,Margaret Paul, is noted to have died on the vessel,"Columbus",11th Oct 1864,Auckland,"The Southern Cross",have found the only Margaret of a date around this childs birth,the only one is a Margaret,B-1863,Oct,Illigitimate,born to a Margaret Paul,Farm servant,reg in Falkirk,Stirlingshire,not far from Killearn,maybe the wee one who died on the "Columbus",cannot be certain.
Warmest,
James
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Lucy - Yes, William did have a younger brother Robert, born 1835/36 at Drumbeg, Killearn.
I think I might have found them arriving in NZ (via Auckland City Library).
William Paul, aboard 'Belgravia', arriving May 10th 1861
Robert Paul, aboard 'Columbus', arriving October 10th 1864
Hello Lu,
Robert Paul,(brother of William Paul)a 2 yr child,Margaret Paul, is noted to have died on the vessel,"Columbus",11th Oct 1864,Auckland,"The Southern Cross" .....
Hi James
Will start with Robert PAUL. (It was actually Anne who found the "Belgravia" and Columbus" passenger lists.)
I can tell you though, that the Robert PAUL per "Columbus" 1864, is not the brother of your William PAUL. [This Robert hailed from Paisley ... was born c. 1835, died at Auckland in 1918 and was the husband of Margaret (nee KERR). Besides the death of their daughter Margaret, a son (Andrew Columbus PAUL) was born to the couple, during the voyage. Source: Tree online at Ancestry. ]
I am also of the view that the William PAUL (arrived at Auckland 1865 per "Belgravia"), is not the William who went on to live in Palmerston, Otago.
It would be of great benefit to this search, to have a (printout) copy of your William PAUL's death record (1908). In a New Zealand death record of that era, provision is made to include the following information ; - Place of birth / Parent's names - father's occupation & mother's maiden name / to whom the deceased was married and at what age, the locality marriage took place / name and maiden name and current age of widow / number of years the deceased lived in NZ / the ages of male and female children who survive the deceased: Accuracy of information though, is of course dependent on the knowledge of the informant to the death. [Unfortunately NZ marriage records prior to (late) 1880, contain only the names of the bride and groom, sometimes their ages, the date and place where they wed, and the names of witnesses - which won't be of much help here. ]
~ Lu
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Emigrants to New Zealand - Passenger Lists :
Please be aware that it is not always possible to determine exactly when and how a person arrived in New Zealand.
The bulk of passenger lists (in NZ records), relate to emigrants who came to the country by way of immigration schemes put in place by the various (provincial) governments of the time. Some schemes offered fully or partly-funded passages - others also included enticements such as land grants. With a few exceptions, the immigration passenger lists are largely for persons who travelled directly to NZ from UK ports.
Records are scant (or non-existent), for those arriving in NZ from other countries (including from Australia); for persons who paid their own fares or who were "sponsored" by relatives already residing in the Colony; for those who worked their passages (as crew on ships) etc. : And although there were numerous passenger lists published in newspapers, it does not always follow that there will be additional information (e.g. ages, place of origin, etc,) available.
;)
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Robert PAUL - continued :
When I discovered the death notice for Robert PAUL (1887 at Greymouth), and along with the fact that it had been published (seemingly only) in the Otago newspaper, my thoughts were that brother William PAUL (living at Palmerston, Otago) had arranged publication of this - quite probably because Robert had no immediate family of his own. I still hold that view.
But happily, some more information on Robert PAUL has come to light. :)
The "Grey River Argus" (Westland), has the following >
- 10 August 1887 - page 2 / column 2 -- Funeral Notice (strangely it gives his name as "Robert A. PAUL" ? )
- 11 August 1887 -- an account of his funeral which confirms he was the assistant road overseer (for Grey County). It mentions that the chief mourners were the County chairman along with Councillors of the Grey County. [So it would seem he had no family present. ]
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More on Robert PAUL ...
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz
"Grey River Argus" - 9 August 1887
A form of Obituary for Robert PAUL : Explains the circumstances of his death ... confirms he was a native of Drymen, Scotland ... and that he was on "old hand" on the West Coast (of NZ), having been a long-time goldminer.
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I've gone back through the newspapers for some years and have possibly found him (on the West Coast) as early as 1872. There was however another man of the same name in the area and confusion (at times) as to which was which. Will anyway, add further details on this, tomorrow.
~ Lu
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Robert PAUL - continued
Archives New Zealand (Christchurch office) hold the following Probate files - there are two files in fact, for the same Robert PAUL - which may mean there is a lot of information to be had ? :D.
It is possible to ask on this board for a look-up of the files by one of our very kindly RootsChatters in the Christchurch area.
Please note though, that some special conditions apply to sourcing records at Christchurch (due to post-earthquake issues) and that a small fee may apply. All details are on the home page of the Archives NZ website.
http://archway.archives.govt.nz
Please also see the "instructions" in the Resources Section of this NZ board, on how to post a (separate) request for a look up of records.
At the link given above, you'll be able to find the reference details for the Probate files, which you'll need to include in any look-up request.
[In searchbox enter "Robert PAUL" ... and go to page 6 of results, to locate. ]
PAUL - Robert - Greymouth - Road Overseer -- Year, 1888 (ex Hokitika Court)
PAUL - Robert - Greymouth - Road Overseer -- Year, 1887 (ex Greymouth Court)
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This too for Robert PAUL ...
"Grey River Argus" - 5 September 1887 - District Court
... In the matter of Robert PAUL, deceased ... it mentions that a George Henry RUSSELL was the executor named in the Will.
[George Henry RUSSELL doesn't appear to have been related in any way to Robert PAUL. There's an obituary for GH RUSSELL, and it seems he also had a connection with goldmining - so was probably just a friend of Robert ? ]
~ Lu
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My goodness Lu - you HAVE been a busy bee!
I'm sure when James comes along and sees all the additional info he'll be delighted once again.
I just though I'd pop in to see how things were going, so thanks from me for all your help.
Anne :)
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Hello LU,
MY,MY,you are a busy Pal,many thanks for all your time,excuse my delay in reply,had Grandchildren yesterday.
William Paul
I have ordered online a death cert for William,thr:bdmonline@dia.govt.nz,this was ordered 8th Sept,to be emailed,LU,this will be a short form thing,the fully detailed cert needs to be ordered,which source? do you advise,do not be concerned about costs.
My William was born at Drumbeg Farm,Killearn,this is clear fron the death notice,so feel sure we are onto the correct person,you are correct,the full death cert is what we need.
Robert Paul.
Interesting to note your comments,The death notice,8th Aug 1887,Greymouth,his birth 1836,Drumbeg Farm,Killearn,all match,the bit between!!!!.will post request for someone in the Christchurch and see if we get a result,also,order a full death cert,will be this be from the same scource as Williams.
We shall have the result we require finally,without your energy it is not possible,I am so grateful.
Every Good Wish,
James,
Will now look at your link,and report back.
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Hello LU,
Archives,Christchurch,have mailed this office re Robert Paul link you kindly provided,do not see how I can order over link thro email,am I missing something?,or is James slow!!!.
Regards,
James
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Robert Paul,D-8th Aug 1887,at Greymouth,westland,NZ.
I am trying to find more detail for Robert,the Christchurch Archives have 2 no records for Robert,Probate,
1/R8763031.No-HK325/1888,Greymouth-Road Overseer.
2/R8755729.No-GM121/1887
Can a kind person in Christchurch visit to have a wee look at the data in these files for me,I am a "PAUL"and ROBERT was born into my Family.
Best Wishes,
James Paul
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The Waihemo District Museum is located in Palmerston.
They have the Palmerston Cemetery burial records, local school records etc in their archives. Contact address :-
waihemomuseum[at]xtra.co.nz
Cheers
Alex G ;D
Edit by Moderator: email edited to protect against spam, etc. Replace [at] with @.
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Hello Alex G,
Many thanks for your kind mail,will do,
Regards,
James
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Thanks for your message, Anne. :)
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Hello James
Pleased to see that Alex has added the contact details for the Waihemo Museum. :)
[It had been next on my list to give you ... but didn't want to include too much at once, in case it all became confusing.] :D
---------------
Robert Paul,D-8th Aug 1887,at Greymouth,westland,NZ.
I am trying to find more detail for Robert,the Christchurch Archives have 2 no records for Robert,Probate,
1/R8763031.No-HK325/1888,Greymouth-Road Overseer.
2/R8755729.No-GM121/1887
Can a kind person in Christchurch visit to have a wee look at the data in these files for me, I am a "PAUL"and ROBERT was born into my Family.
Best Wishes,
James Paul
Now for the above probate look-up, you'll need to make a separate request on this board (otherwise it won't be seen, set as it is amongst other things in this thread).
So that means starting a new topic. ;) [Would suggest you head the topic "Christchurch Archives Look-up". ]
~ Lu
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I have ordered online a death cert for William,thr:bdmonline@dia.govt.nz,this was ordered 8th Sept,to be emailed,LU,this will be a short form thing,the fully detailed cert needs to be ordered,which source? do you advise,do not be concerned about costs.
My William was born at Drumbeg Farm,Killearn,this is clear fron the death notice,so feel sure we are onto the correct person,you are correct,the full death cert is what we need.
Robert Paul.
.....,also,order a full death cert,will be this be from the same scource as Williams.
Hi again James
I posted the following for Anne, earlier in this thread.
On the BMD Online site, I found his death (my friend is about to purchase the certificate).
Hello Anne
Just in case your friend has not yet purchased the "certificate" .... our recommendation here in NZ, is that the printout of the death record be purchased - (rather than a certificate). [A printout is a copy of the actual register entry and contains the maximum amount of information available ... happily it is also a less expensive option than a cert.] ;)
~ Lu
So if you you've purchased the printout of the New Zealand Death records, then you are getting the maximum amount of information available. ;)
[There is no need to purchase a death certificate - because all that really is (in NZ terms), is a transcription of the information from the register entry - and you get a copy of that as the "printout". ]
~ Lu
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Hello Lu,
Many thanks for your kind mail,note your comments,will action as you advise,my knowhow of ROOT,s is limited.
NEW NEWs:NZ Death cert for:
William Paul has arrived today in the post,data in the cert 100% proves he is the Person born in Drumbeg Farm,Killearn,Scotland:Text is:
William Paul,D.O.D.16th Dec 1908, Place:Palmerston. C.O.D.Pneumonia,10 days. Last seen alive:15th Dec 1908. Age 79yrs. Place of Birth,Stirlingshire,Scotland. Lived in NZ,47yrs. Occupation,Contractor.
Mother,Margaret Paul,name at birth, More.Actual,Moir. Father,John Paul. Marriage,age of deceased at event,34yrs. Place,Dunedin,Spouse, Elizabeth Porter,(THE NAME YOU ADVISED)
So,Lu,a good result,well done,thanks a million.William lived in NZ for 47yrs,so,arrived 1861,we have him arriving 1865,43 years in NZ,3/4 years later,?.
Will push on with the other stuff now ans see what arrives this next few days,thanks for now.
Best Regards,
James
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Hello LU,
Sorry forgot the following from William.s death record:
Age of each living Daughter:3 ages not recorded.
" " Son :4 " " "
date of burial:18th Dec 1908,Palmerston Cemetery.
Best Wishes,
James
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Hello LU,
A wee update,Robert Paul,had a very positive reply from Roots:"Jean" in Christchurch"yesterday,she will visit the Archives and give the feed-back,great news.
Have attempted to find some more info re William Paul,s wife,Elizabeth Porter.
LU,the death cert states:"Age of deceased at event,34", is this the age of his wife/or period married?.
The cert records:"age of each living daughter:3 ages not recorded
" " " " " son :4 ages not recorded
Have traced 2 possible children:William B-1874,and a:Elizabeth B-1867
LU,have you a view on any these subjects?.
Many thanks for your great support.
Every Good Wish,
James
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Hello James
Thanks for the updates.
I'm working part-time at the moment so haven't had the time to devote to further searching.
Do have some additional info for you though and will endeavour to post this shortly.
Yes, that's very nice of "Jean" to offer to look-up the probate record(s) for Robert PAUL.
Hope there's something of interest on the files. ;)
~ Lu
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Hello LU,
Thanks for reply,will keep you in the loop when I have info from Christchurch.
Regards,
James
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Hi James
It's a pity that the ages of William PAUL's children were not noted on his death record. (Actually, it seems a little unusual, given the era in which he died. )
Just wanted to check though, was it a "printout" (photocopy of the death register entry) which you received ? Or was it a typewritten "death certificate" ?
~ Lu
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Replying to your earlier questions :
William lived in NZ for 47yrs,so,arrived 1861,we have him arriving 1865,43 years in NZ,3/4 years later,?.
* We haven't been able to find William PAUL's arrival in New Zealand. He certainly is not the person arriving in 1865.
[Also, we need to be cautious about the information given in death records. Sometimes the "years in New Zealand" it not totally accurate, although in this case, given that William PAUL married in 1863, the "47 years" seems realistic. ]
LU,the death cert states:"Age of deceased at event,34", is this the age of his wife/or period married?.
"Age of deceased at Event" refers to William's age (34 years) at the date of his marriage.
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Have attempted to find some more info re William Paul,s wife,Elizabeth Porter.
I think we need to put Elizabeth PORTER "on hold" for the time being. ;)
Once you have further information re: the burials at Palmerston Cemetery, we can identify Elizabeth PAUL's date of death. (Hopefully she is buried with William ? )
From there, it would make sense to get the "printout" of her death record.
[Unfortunately ... and I probably mentioned this earlier ... a New Zealand marriage certificate of 1863, is not helpful. It gives sparse information and does not include "place of birth"
or "names of parents" of bride and groom. ]
~ Lu
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Have traced 2 possible children:William B-1874,and a:Elizabeth B-1867
Hi James
Yes, we have Elizabeth PAUL married COOK and details of her children, earlier in the thread.
William PAUL - birth registered 1874 ? I'm dubious about this being the right one ?
[Still investigating this and another whose birth was registered in 1878 - Parents also given as William and Elizabeth. Places of birth registration need to be checked for both and can only do this via the birth microfiche at a local library. Will try to do that soon. ]
~ Lu
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The three daughters who survived William PAUL (d. 1908) are :
- Elizabeth (m. COOK) [identified via her daughter "Jean" (Elizabeth Jane COOK) who placed "In Memoriam" notices in the newspapers in respect of her grandfather William PAUL (d. 1908). ]
.... the other two daughters appear to be
** Jane PAUL - born 30 September 1871 (see earlier school record in this thread).
Unfortunately I can't find a marriage or death for this Jane PAUL (have searched also using "Jean" / "Jeannie" etc. as a first name, to no avail.) She is to be found last in 1900 residing at Palmerston with her parents and siblings.
** and Margaret ("Maggie") PAUL (can see her on electoral rolls and a possible death). It seems she did not marry ?
~ Lu
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** and Margaret ("Maggie") PAUL (can see her on electoral rolls and a possible death). It seems she did not marry ?
... still working on above Margaret ("Maggie") so will get back to this later.
[Our online BDM site is working very slowly at present (or not at all at times) :D - so that is somewhat hindering progress. It is also a case of having to sort out "a lot of PAULs" who have similar christian names. ]
~ Lu
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Hello James
* Were you actually looking to make contact with descendants of this PAUL family ??
[Just thought I'd ask before adding further for the children of William and Elizabeth. ]
~ Lu
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Good Morning,LU,
So many thanks for your "newsy"mail,great stuff,reply as following:
1/Death cert for William is "typewritten"
2 Note your comment about 34 yrs.
3/Eliz Porter,have looked at the Waihhemo records,no result,may be me failing to do the search correctly?.
4/Children of this pair,interesting you have found possible names,do you advise I order certs?
5/Desendants contact,YES,if we find that possible that would be fantastic.
LU,Sylvia and I are very grateful fpr all your time and effort,will await "Jean,s" news from Christchurch.
Every Good Wish,
James
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Good Morning,LU,
So many thanks for your "newsy"mail,great stuff,reply as following:
1/Death cert for William is "typewritten" ... yes, unfortunately when NZ BDM send a certificate (rather than printout), although they record the male and female living issue, they don't include the ages of same. But never mind, I think I have found all the PAUL children now and in following posts, will add details for each.
2 Note your comment about 34 yrs.
3/Eliz Porter,have looked at the Waihhemo records,no result,may be me failing to do the search correctly?. ... looks like we'll need Elizabeth (PORTER) PAUL's death printout to (hopefully) find out more about her.
4/Children of this pair,interesting you have found possible names,do you advise I order certs?
... no need to purchase birth records for the children, I'm hopeful I've found enough information for them already. ;)
5/Desendants contact,YES,if we find that possible that would be fantastic. ... fairly sure I've found a link to a descendant ... but will give you all the other info I've gathered, firstly.
Reply to your latest post ^ see above.
~ Lu
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Hi James
Have now checked records at library - PAUL children (registration district(s) - for birthplace) ... and also found a couple of additional school records.
The following* children (which match with the 3 daughters and 4 sons who survived William PAUL), are, I believe, those born to William PAUL and Elizabeth (nee PORTER) : All births registered at Waikouaiti or Palmerston (South), Otago.
[Note: With these, am also including their dates of birth (as deduced from the online NZ BDM index - which we are able to do by "tinkering" with dates. ;D ) And as mentioned earlier in this thread by "Spades", who added information from school records, the birthdates on school records can often be wrong ! ]
* see next post for list of children >
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NZ Births - PAUL - parents recorded as William and Elizabeth PAUL :
1865 - Margaret PAUL - date of birth : 7 December 1865 [No school record found - but she appears later on electoral rolls with her family at Palmerston.]
1867 - Elizabeth PAUL - DoB: 26 August 1867 [DoB: shown incorrectly on school record as 11 June 1867.]
1869 - James PAUL - DoB: 16 July 1869 [DoB shown incorrectly on school record as 12 July. ]
1871 - Jane PAUL - DoB: 30 September 1871 [Shown correctly on school record. ]
^ All above births were registered at Waikouaiti, Otago (which included the locality of Palmerston.)
1874 - William PAUL - DoB: 18 February 1874 [Wrongly shown on school records as born 23 December 1875. ]
1876 - Robert George PAUL - DoB : 20 October 1876 [DoB correctly given on school records.]
1879 - Alexander PAUL - DoB: 16 May 1879 [School record showed 20 May 1879 ]
^ Births registered at Palmerston (South), Otago 1874 / 1876 and 1879.
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Now adding information for each of the PAUL children :
Margaret PAUL - born 7 December 1865
Died: 23 March 1933 (Probably at Palmerston, Otago ?)
Margaret did not marry. She is shown in electoral rolls at various time living at Palmerston (Otago) firstly with her parents, and later with some of her siblings.
Archives New Zealand (at Wellington) hold the following Probate record :
PAUL - Margaret - Palmerston - spinster - 1933
[Seems she died intestate. ]
* I can do a look-up of this record, when next at the Archives.
~ Lu
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Elizabeth PAUL - born 26 August 1867
married - Charles Lowen COOK :
Please refer to information on Elizabeth, already published earlier in this thread.
[Scroll back to page 3 of thread - info commences in Reply # 20 ]
~ Lu
PS: Going out to dinner shortly, so will try to complete this when I get home ... otherwise tomorrow. ;)
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Hello LU,
Excuse delay in reply,out of home for a few days at Board Meetings.
Many thanks for all your great data,"bit by bit"the story builds.
Looking forward to Jean,s reply about Robert Paul.
Every Good Wish,
Regards,
James
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Hi James
Did you contact the Waihemo Museum at Palmerston, Otago which I gave you a few posts back?
Apart from searching the cemetery / burial records with a little bit of gentle persuasion they may be able to photograph some gravesites for you? It is possible I could even do it next time I am up that way as well .. trouble is don't know when that will be .. certainly before Xmas.
Just a suggestion
Alex G ;D
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None of William & Elizabeths s Boys attended secondary school at Otago Boys High School
(First PAUL enrolled Lionel Thomas 1915)
James is married to Barbara Ann CUNNINGHAM
1899/3654 Barbara Ann CUNNINGHAM [married] James PAUL
This marriage is in Presbyterian Archives recorded at Dunback - McRaes a neighbouring Parish to Palmerston inland from Palmerston
27 Sep 1899 CUNNINGHAM Barbara Ann 19y PAUL James 29y
and her death
1974/33789 PAUL Barbara Ann 93Y
Signal
and their children
1899/19085 PAUL Elizabeth Porter Barbara Ann James
1900/14655 PAUL William Barbara Ann James
1910/25052 PAUL Annie Margaret Barbara Ann James
No other neighbouring Presbyterian Parishes have historic PAUL marriages recorded
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There is a Probate in Dunedin Archives for Barbara (but it seems not for James)
PAUL Barbara Ann - Dunedin - Widow 1974 Dunedin High Court
http://archway.archives.govt.nz
Surname PAUL
Forename BARBARA ANN
Age 93 Years
Gender Female
Date of Death 22 May 1974
Last Address 96 CANNONGATE
Next of Kin
Funeral Director Gillions Funeral Services Ltd, 407 Hillside Road, Forbury, DUNEDIN
Cemetery ANDERSONS BAY CEMETERY
Location Block 172. Plot 15
Date of Burial 24 May 1974
Type Burial
Date of Birth Not recorded
Notes Original reference:- A197405032
Occupation:- WIDOW
Native of:- NZ
Years in NZ:- 93
Place died:- DUNEDIN
Paul is buried with her
Surname PAUL
Forename JAMES
Age 74 Years
Gender Male
Date of Death 4 Sep 1943
Last Address 96 CANNONGATE DUNEDIN
Next of Kin
Funeral Director J McLean Ltd
Cemetery ANDERSONS BAY CEMETERY
Location Block 172. Plot 15
Date of Burial 6 Sep 1943
Type Burial
Date of Birth Not recorded
Notes Original reference:- A19430910
Occupation:- ENGINE DRIVER
Native of:- NZ
Place died:- DUNEDIN
Signal
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This appears to be Jane's next youngest sister
Birth
1877/1378 Paul Elecia Bruce Elizabeth William
Marriage
1901/158 Elexia Bruce Paul Richard Alexander Campbell
Death
1952/30916 Campbell Elexa Bruce 74Y
Death of Husband
1955/25471 Campbell Richard Alexander 76Y
Death of son
1978/29356 Campbell Richard Alexander Paul [born] 11 Feb 1903
Signal
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This appears to be Jane's next youngest sister
Birth
1877/1378 Paul Elecia Bruce Elizabeth William
Signal
Please note ... that Elecia (Elexia / Elexa) Bruce PAUL (born 7 or 8 February, 1877) is NOT part of the Palmerston South family.
[She was the daughter of an Elizabeth and William PAUL who resided for a time in the Taranaki (North Island) region. A school record shows that she attended Moturoa School, New Plymouth, along with a brother (Archibald), in 1884. ]
Please refer to Reply No. 50 for details of the children of William and Elizabeth PAUL of Palmerston South.
~ Lu
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Please refer to Reply No. 50 for details of the children of William and Elizabeth PAUL of Palmerston South.
~ Lu
** CORRECTION **
... oops, sorry, .... above should read as Reply No. 70
~ Lu
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Hello again James
If you would prefer to not expend effort in chasing up on Probates, cemetery records, etc. etc. then it may be in your interests to establish contact with descendants of William and Elizabeth PAUL [via their son Robert George, (deceased) ].
A check of recent electoral rolls shows family members still at the Ronaldsay Street, Palmerston (Otago), address.
NZ Telephone directories (all areas) :
http://whitepages.co.nz/whitepages
[Search on : (Who) "PAUL" + (Where) - "Otago" .... go to page 5 of results ]
Good luck. :)
~ Lu
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James is off gallivanting at the moment, but I'm sure he'll check in again soon.
Thank you everyone for the latest updates.
Anne (James' pal!) :)
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Small world - (I'm following this thread as I'm the person who left the thread about searching for a William Paul ex Scotland - hoping to find his arrival into NZ). Your William, in Palmerston is not mine, but as I live in Central Otago, I am happy to photograph the grave for you. If you receive the grave details, please post here and I will pop by the cemetery next time I'm in Palmerston.
I'm now wondering if the William Paul who arrived on May 11, 1865 is my one? I have one of his brothers (Walter) living in Auckland and another brother (George) living in Otago, so not sure where he would pick to live. My William (born 1824) is from Dunbartonshire (father John Paul, mother Ann Filshie) - last 'find' was the 1841 census when he was listed as a tailor's apprentice.
Palmerston is not too far from where I'm living, so happy to help another Paul family member :)
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James, a 'light bulb' just went off as "Carston Farm" rang bells with me. I know that your William Paul is not mine, but think there may be a connection in Scotland as my William Paul has a g-g-grandfather called William - who lived in Killearn. You mention that your William was born on 16 Feb 1830 and his father was also named William. Do you have details of who this early William was married to, ie how far back have you been able to go? I have details to early 1700s and happy to share. Regards Helen DeLilla (nee Paul)
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James, Just going back thru my Scotland files and I believe that the census record you have for a Robert Paul, ploughman could possibly be one of mine. Does your census record have the name of the farm? If it's the same record as the one I have, I may be able to eliminate him from your search in Scotland as I have a fairly large file on this individual. I'm trying to sort out the Scottish side (family groupings) in order to sort out the New Zealand Pauls - as confusing. Following this chat has helped me as I was 'hoping' that this William was mine and was about to order his death record (you guys have saved me time and money).
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Hi, I have just registered to this site after doing a search for Charles Lowen Cook. I have photos and info on William and Elizabeth Paul also photos of the Cook family from Palmerston. Can also provide information for Elizabeth Jane Cook as she was my grandmother.
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Hi, I am a granddaughter of Jean Elizabeth Cook and have just registered on this site. I have photos of William Paul and Elizabeth Porter also a lovely photo taken approx 1900 of Jean and William. Also photos of all the Cook family.
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Hi DebbJ,
Welcome to RootsChat. Apanderson should receive notification of your reply to her topic.
In the meantime can I suggest that you reply once more (just a smiley will do). This will activate your Personal Message (PM) facility and let you send and receive 'offline' messages. Then you can send Apanderson your email address and other information.
See http://www.rootschat.com/help/pms.php for a guide on Personal Messages.
If you have any questions on how to use RootsChat feel free to ask on the topic. Everyone is keen to help.
Spades
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:) :)
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:) I see that it has been a long time since anyone has posted on this topic. I would love to add some information to it as I am a relative of William Paul.