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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Midlothian => Topic started by: Malcolm33 on Sunday 08 September 13 05:24 BST (UK)
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I wonder if some kind person could check the 1861 census for me. William Forsyth married Marion Grant at Edinburgh Parish on 2nd June 1859 according to the IGI and they had a child William who was baptised at Edinburgh Parish on 27th February, 1860, so I do expect that they would still be in Edinburgh for the 1861 census.
My own grandmother was also a Grant but from an entirely different line. The William Forsyth born in 1860 went to New Zealand and lived to a great old age of 90 years, passing away in 1950 in Christchurch, South Island which is where my daughter-in-law was born. William was her great grandfather.
We would like to know more about Marion Grant and hopefully the 1861 census will give us her birth year. William Forsyth jnr eventually married a May Elizabeth Borkoski who was born in Germany. When and where they married is yet a mystery.
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Hi ,
The 1859 marriage certificate should give you ages and names of parents.
http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/
ev
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Hi ,
The 1859 marriage certificate should give you ages and names of parents.
http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/
ev
Thank you ev
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Looking at the indexes for the 1861 Census could be -
William Forsyth 24 born Canongate Edinburgh
Marion Forsyth 21 born St Marys Edinburgh
William Forsyth 1 born midlothian
Using http://www.freecen.org.uk/ likely candidates are -
Marion Grant , parents John and Margaret.
William Forsyth , parents William and Jane
SP also has a death for a Marion Forsyth(other surname Grant) 1906 Midlothian , born c1839 which may be connected :-\
ev
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Looking at the indexes for the 1861 Census could be -
William Forsyth 24 born Canongate Edinburgh
Marion Forsyth 21 born St Marys Edinburgh
William Forsyth 1 born midlothian
Using http://www.freecen.org.uk/ likely candidates are -
Marion Grant , parents John and Margaret.
William Forsyth , parents William and Jane
SP also has a death for a Marion Forsyth(other surname Grant) 1906 Midlothian , born c1839 which may be connected :-\
ev
Thanks so much Ev. These are great leads which should take us further. One thing that I find a little different but nice is how the Forsyth family hung on to Grant. William and Marion's son William Forsyth always called himself Grant Forsyth. I must find my way around the Scotland's People web site. I did have a look for Marion Grant but they came back with 'no record'. Thanks again, Malcolm
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I am a direct descendant of William Forsyth and Marion Grant & am currently the Chief's Commissioner of Clan Forsyth in New Zealand. PM me to obtain further info on our family
Welcome to RootsChat , Allan, just to point out that people cannot PM you until you have made 3 posts, so get posting! - Tom
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Family Search have William Forsyth aged 26 in the 1861 census in the St.Andrew Registration district of Edinburgh, and also his son William Forsyth aged 1 also in St.Andrew, but the Marion Forsyth I see there is shown as aged 21 years but in Canongate.
The 1851 census is in FreeCen which shows whole households and there William is a 16 year old 'working Baker'.
I wonder therefore if anyone is able to look at the 1861 census for William and see if he is still in the baking trade - if occupations are shown for Scotland?
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Hi Malcolm,
Yes, he is still shown as a baker, at 15 St James Square, Edinburgh. This was knocked down to make way for the St James Shopping centre. His spouse is 24 yo and named Jane Gibson, young William Forsyth is indeed 1 yo.
Tom
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Hi Malcolm,
Looked for the Marion Forsyth 21, that you mentioned, and she is spouse of a William Forsyth 24 yo, who is a brewers servant. So maybe the wrong one.
Tom
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Hi Malcolm,
Looked for the Marion Forsyth 21, that you mentioned, and she is spouse of a William Forsyth 24 yo, who is a brewers servant. So maybe the wrong one.
Tom
Hi Tom. This looks like this could be the right one. On William's marriage cert he lists his father (William) as a brewer.
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Hi Allan,
Thanks for that, just that Malcolm had mentioned a baker, on one of his posts. There were a few Forsyths in Edinburgh at that time.Was he a brewer or did he work for a brewer?
Tom
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Hi Allan,
Thanks for that, just that Malcolm had mentioned a baker, on one of his posts. There were a few Forsyths in Edinburgh at that time.Was he a brewer or did he work for a brewer?
Tom
Hi Tom.
Sorry, the only info I have is from the BDM's record of William's marriage in Christchurch in 1886 (age 26) which shows his birthplace as Scotland, his occupation at that time as baker and that of his father (William) as brewer. It also records his mothers maiden name as Grant.
I know it's slim info to go on. I don't even have info on what ship he arrived on in NZ, whether he traveled with family or alone, or if he had other relatives out here or others joined him later.
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Hi Malcolm,
Looked for the Marion Forsyth 21, that you mentioned, and she is spouse of a William Forsyth 24 yo, who is a brewers servant. So maybe the wrong one.
Tom
Hi Tom, would you have the address for this one? I have found the three of them in Family Search at Canongate district but those entries don't tell us very much more. Unfortunately FreeCen only appear to have 1841 and 1851 for Edinburgh. Thanks so much for putting me right with the two William Forsyth's both with one year old William's. Malcolm
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There is something else which I find quite curious. In 1881 the 21 year old William Forsyth gives his birth place as 'Haddingtonshire' instead of 'Edinburgh' or 'Midlothian' as in earlier census. But Haddingtonshire was the name for the Royal Borough of Haddington before 1921 which is some 20 miles east of Edinburgh.
It is possible that Marion was at Haddington when William was born, but I then thought that there was another explanation, because the 16 year old William Forsyth Father who was the 'baker' was living at 7 Haddington Place in Edinburgh in 1851 which was so very close to where Marion Grant was living.
I have a vague feeling that I spotted Haddington somewhere else - maybe in the shipping lists so I'll just have to go through those again.
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Hi All
Tom is off line at present, so just adding some census entries:
1861:
Willm Forsyth 24 b. A Brewers Servant b. Canongate, Edinburgh
Marion Forsyth 21 b. St Mary's, Edinburgh
William Forsyth 1 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FQ5Q-XHM
Barbara Grant 19 sister in law, domestic servant b. St Marys, Edinburgh
Jane Grant 14 sister in law, domestic servant b. St Marys, Edinburgh
Address: 8 Haddington Entry, Edinburgh
1871:
William Forsyth 37, baker b. Edinburgh
Jane Forsyth 34 (place of birth not included on transcript I am looking at)
William Forsyth 11 b. Edinburgh
Jane Forsyth 3 b. Edinburgh https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FQS6-XRJ
Marion Forsyth 1 b. Edinburgh https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FQWM-B5S
Address: 12 Gibbs Entry, Edinburgh St Cuthberts
Can't see a William Forsyth and Jane Gibson marriage between 1861 and 1875. Only Jane and Marion show to these parents.
Monica
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Now I know why I couldn't find them in 1871. They were in London:
William Forsyth, "England and Wales Census, 1871"
Name: William Forsyth
Event Type: Census
Event Date: 1871
Gender: Male
Age: 34
Relationship to Head of Household: Self
Birthplace: Edinburgh, Scotland
Schedule Type: Household
Registration District: London City
Sub-District: Allhallows Barking
Parish: Allhallows Barking
County: London, Middlesex
Household Gender Age Birthplace
Self William Forsyth M 34 Edinburgh, Scotland
Wife Marion Forsyth F 31 Edinburgh, Scotland
Son William Forsyth M 11 Edinburgh, Scotland
Son John Forsyth M 5 Bermondsey, Surrey
Son Alexander Forsyth M 5 Bermondsey, Surrey
This seems to establish that it is the William Forsyth born in 1837 who was the father. Bit of a surprise here in that there are two more sons. Their ages show that the family went south by at least 1866.
Oh wonderful finds, Monica. So there is the reason for Haddingtonshire - Haddington Entry not Haddington Place where the other William worked as a young baker.
Many thanks Monica. But now I wonder what was William's job in London. Maybe hired by one of the big hotels? Cheers Malcolm
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Well done Malcolm. Have to admit I was getting confused with the 1871 family in Edinburgh.
William Forsyth shows as a beer bottler in 1871, fits well with his occupation in 1871 :)
Monica
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Well done Malcolm. Have to admit I was getting confused with the 1871 family in Edinburgh.
William Forsyth shows as a beer bottler in 1871, fits well with his occupation in 1871 :)
Monica
Please don't laugh at me. Reason I found the London 1871 entry is because I made a mistake and clicked on the England census instead of the Scotland census. But at same time I know that this is due to them looking over our shoulder and helping. I've had this so happen so many times in the past, it is not coincident.
Anyway your finds Monica really cement the whole case - you found Barbara and Jane living with them and here those two were in 1851:
1851 Census
Parish ref 685 Edinburgh fo 737 page 13
2 East Broughton Place
John GRANT Head 45 Pianoforte Makers Foreman b Edinburgh Midlothian
Margaret GRANT Wife 38 Foremans Wife b Edinburgh Midlothian
John GRANT Son 16 Pupil Teacher Normal School b Edinburgh Midlothian
Marion GRANT Dau 10 Scholar At Home b Edinburgh
Barbara GRANT Dau 8 Scholar At Home b Edinburgh
Alexander GRANT Son 6 Scholar At Home b Edinburgh
Jane GRANT Dau 4 At Home b Edinburgh
Isabella GRANT Dau 2 At Home b Edinburgh
Isabella LUMSDEN Servt U 30 House Servant b Leith
Furthermore Marion had a father named John, and brothers named John and Alexander hence the names of her sons born Bermondsey.
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I have to have a little chuckle looking at John Grant Piano Maker Foreman in 1851 as my son is John Grant Hutton and he is magic on the keyboard. His wife Leanne - descendant of the John Grant Piano Maker is a whiz with cake making so that tells me that the two William Forsyth's are connected. :)
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Obviously the gene pool is alive and well ;)
Have to admit I am lost after 1871 in both England and Scotland though. Can't see them after this :-\ Is there anything in William Jnr's registrations in NZ which show how long he had lived in NZ or possible travel dates for him?
I am wondering whether the whole family may have left the UK? Only because I can't see anything more on the censuses really so far...
Monica
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Well Allan Forsyth is the expert on the Forsyth Family from the time William appears in NZ, which I understand was about 1886 when he married May Borkoski. See http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/f/o/r/Allan-Forsyth/WEBSITE-0001/UHP-0057.html
We have searched for shipping details but cannot identify him. He may have come to OZ first as did so many others I know of, e.g. Benjamin Willis who came to Melbourne then turned up in Dunedin for about ten years having been a Ship's Cook in between. He made a name for himself in Dunedin as a Chef, searching for Gold at the same time. I see some similarity here and wonder if William Forsyth may have worked on ships and perhaps jumped ship in South Island.
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I am sure you have all looked for shipping entries. I too (for the very little time I have looked) cannot see anything for him either.
Monica
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Hi All,
I go out to party and come back to find you have had an amazing time, as did I, by the way. Well done, Monica as usual, never far from the scene and it is appreciated, thanks.
Tom
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It certainly is appreciated both of you Tom and Monica. There are many descendants of this family of William Forsyth and Marion Grant and they are just rapt. Thank you again.
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There is something else which I find quite curious. In 1881 the 21 year old William Forsyth gives his birth place as 'Haddingtonshire' instead of 'Edinburgh' or 'Midlothian' as in earlier census. But Haddingtonshire was the name for the Royal Borough of Haddington before 1921 which is some 20 miles east of Edinburgh.
It is possible that Marion was at Haddington when William was born, but I then thought that there was another explanation, because the 16 year old William Forsyth Father who was the 'baker' was living at 7 Haddington Place in Edinburgh in 1851 which was so very close to where Marion Grant was living.
I have a vague feeling that I spotted Haddington somewhere else - maybe in the shipping lists so I'll just have to go through those again.
Hi all,
Another thing about Haddington, there were many breweries in the town and surrounding area, thrived on all the locally produced crops. Will try and find any William Forsyths connected there.
Just had another look at the 1881 census, it is not the 21yo William Forsyth that gives Haddingtonshire but his spouse Margaret, and that is from the family of bakers not brewers.
Tom
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Just as additional info.
I think the Alexander and John who you found Malcolm in that 1871 entry in Bermondsey area in London were very likely twins.....just in case it went on to run in the family!
Alexander A Forsyth
John G(? maybe for Grant) Forsyth
References for both births are the same: 2nd Qrt 1866 Bermondsey, London. Volume 1d, page 103....but would need to be confirmed.
The address for the family in 1871 is 8 Black Raven Court. This is smack in the historic area of the City of London. Lots of references to various Black Raven Court/Passage/Alley etc going back centuries. To add some atmosphere ::), an image of Black Raven Alley http://rbkclocalstudies.files.wordpress.com/2012/12/black-raven-alley.jpg (main site here http://rbkclocalstudies.wordpress.com/2012/12/27/dark-citylondon-in-the-30s/). Black Ravens (as in the birds, and is there any other colour apart from black :P) are part of the history and folklore of the Tower of London, in the City.
Anyhow....still no trace of the family after 1871 :-\
Monica
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Think I might have found something that adds to the probability that William, Marion and children left the UK.
I found entries for the Australian Electoral Rolls for a John Grant Forsyth in Queensland between 1925-49.
A search here for deaths - www.bdm.qld.gov.au/IndexSearch/querySubmit.m?ReportName=DeathSearch shows:
John Grant Forsyth died in 1953. Ref: C3730
Parents William Forsyth and Marion Grant.
Added: found an online tree for William Jnr which quotes from his death cert on 7 April 1950 as stating that William had lived in NZ for 75 years, taking the family's arrival to mid 1870s?
Monica
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This is quite fantastic, Monica and Tom. I had a long search for the twins last night, and as you have found there is nothing after 1871 in England, and only vague hints in Scotland, i.e. a John Forsyth and an Alexander Forsyth showing years of birth as 1865 and 1866 but at two different parish's of Edinburgh.
We have a Dr John Forsyth at our Hampton Park Clinic, so must find out if he knows his heritage. Might take time as he only practices there once a week now.
The William Forsyth who died 7 April 1950 was Allan's gt.grandfather, and my grand-childrens' gt.gt.grandfather.
I'll search trove now in the hope of finding more about John Grant Forsyth who died in 1953. Thanks Again, Malcolm
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Many thanks Tom, Monica, & Malcolm !! :D
Your efforts have finally broken down the brick wall that has been blocking me from researching my Scottish roots and discovering which other Forsyth families here in New Zealand that I may be related to. All I have to do now is find which ship they may have emigrated on and the passenger lists. There now exist a possibility from what you discovered that the family may have travelled first to Australia before William arrived in NZ, or else John Grant Forsyth travelled to Aust. from NZ later. Will now need to track his gene pool in Aust.
Monica, that online tree you mentioned that quotes from his death cert on 7 April 1950 as stating that William had lived in NZ for 75 years may be my tree, LOL :). Please PM me the URL so I may confirm.
Malcolm, Leanne will need to exercise her baking skills in a few weeks & make a cake for her 50th birthday.
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That is great news that it makes sense to you both what we are all finding here.
I am sure Allan that the online tree is very like yours (from a/try?). If they left the UK in the mid 1870s, given the ages of parents William and Marion, there may be more children/siblings to find in Australia/NZ hopefully. The manifest is important to try and help with this, but hopefully you both have alternatives sources to look for more info. You could also try posting on the NZ/Australian boards here on RootsChat (www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?board=165.0 and www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?board=299.0). Lots more local help available on those boards. Just add the link to this post here so people can see what you have so far, so they can pick up threads quicker and be able to add new info.
We stay curious here. Come back and let us know how you get on please!
Allan, I am guessing someone may have already or will look at the marriage cert for Marian Grant and William F to give you a 100% confirmation on their parents' details and other info. Scottish certs are great in terms of info post 1855 and the start of official registration.
Monica
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So far no luck finding John Grant Forsyth in trove. Looks like we'll have to get his death certificate and Aussie certificates are very informative. I have a Queensland cert in front of me and it gives When Died and Where, Name and surname and profession or trade, sex and age, Cause of death, duration of last illness, Medical Attendant, When he last saw deceased, Name and surname of father, profession trade or occupation of father, Name and maiden surname of mother, Signature and residence of informant, signature of registrar, When and where buried or cremated, name and religion of minister and/or names of two witnesses of burial or cremation, Where born and how long in Australian states, stating which, If married, where, at what age, to whom, and Issue living in order of birth, their names and ages.
I then checked the Brisbane paper not only for the obituary, but what was happening that day, and it was quite dramatic as on the night before the funeral they had the most terrible storm with horses bolting, floods, lightning galore, etc. That was back on 16 December 1890.
I have told Rhonda via facebook about John's death in 1953. I would order the certificate but don't want to steal anyone's thunder ;)
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But Haddingtonshire was the name for the Royal Borough of Haddington before 1921 which is some 20 miles east of Edinburgh.
Not exactly. Haddingtonshire is an obsolete name for the County of East Lothian, which includes, but is not restricted to, the Burgh of Haddington. ('Borough' is the spelling used in England where 'Burgh' is used in Scotland).
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So far no luck finding John Grant Forsyth in trove. Looks like we'll have to get his death certificate and Aussie certificates are very informative. I have a Queensland cert in front of me and it gives When Died and Where, Name and surname and profession or trade, sex and age, Cause of death, duration of last illness, Medical Attendant, When he last saw deceased, Name and surname of father, profession trade or occupation of father, Name and maiden surname of mother, Signature and residence of informant, signature of registrar, When and where buried or cremated, name and religion of minister and/or names of two witnesses of burial or cremation, Where born and how long in Australian states, stating which, If married, where, at what age, to whom, and Issue living in order of birth, their names and ages.
I then checked the Brisbane paper not only for the obituary, but what was happening that day, and it was quite dramatic as on the night before the funeral they had the most terrible storm with horses bolting, floods, lightning galore, etc. That was back on 16 December 1890.
I have told Rhonda via facebook about John's death in 1953. I would order the certificate but don't want to steal anyone's thunder ;)
Found this in Trove http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/57261880
FUNERAL NOTICES
THE Funeral of the late MR JOHN GRANT FORSYTH, of Eventide Home,
late of Gladstone, will move from our Funeral Parlour, Alma Street, THIS
(Friday) FORENOON, at 11.30 o'clock
for the North Rockhampton Cemetery. Tele. Nos. TUCKER & NANKIVELL 2478 - 2616 Funeral Directors
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Fantastic, Allan. So now we have the date of the funeral -17th July 1953 and he was in Gladstone. Wonder what he was doing there? I'm sure we are about to find out. I've only ever driven through Gladstone on way to Tannum Sands, when driving down from Cairns.
I tried all kinds of searches with Trove, so you were meant to find him. Sounds like he was in a home, which means there had to be family not far away.
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From his Australian voters rolls' entries:
1925 Cook, Thylungra, Thargomindah, Maranoa*
1930-37 Barcaldine Reserve, Cook, Barcaldine Kennedy
1943 Reserve, Roma, Maranoa
1949 Pensioners Reserve, Gladstone, Capricornia
*Just in case connected, in 1925 next to John's entry is one for a Frank Holbert Forsyth, a labourer, Eromanga Post Office. Allan, you might well have him already here http://clanforsythaustralia.org/familygroup.php?familyID=F49&tree=BLACK01
William Forsyth b. 1860, also a cook/chef?
Monica
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*Just in case connected, in 1925 next to John's entry is one for a Frank Holbert Forsyth, a labourer, Eromanga Post Office. Allan, you might well have him already here http://clanforsythaustralia.org/familygroup.php?familyID=F49&tree=BLACK01
Monica
This may be a coincidence. Frank Holbert's family tree doesn't match up at all. In that tree Frank's grandfather is an Alexander Forsyth who did name one of his children William, but that William was born in 1853, not 1837.
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From his Australian voters rolls' entries:
1925 Cook, Thylungra, Thargomindah, Maranoa*
1930-37 Barcaldine Reserve, Cook, Barcaldine Kennedy
1943 Reserve, Roma, Maranoa
1949 Pensioners Reserve, Gladstone, Capricornia
Monica
Thargomindah is a very small town due west of Brisbane and due south of Longreach.
Barcaldine is at a junction 108 kms due east of Long Reach at the northern end of the Langsborough Highway.
Roma is two thirds of the way from Brisbane to Charleville. I have an idea of the countryside there as I've driven up the Leichardt Hwy which is 146 kms east of Roma. Fairly flat but long dry grass with few small trees and billions of Roos - their eyes peeping at you through the grass.
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Thylungra Station on Trove - http://trove.nla.gov.au/work/36908639?q&c=picture&versionId=47920101 Picture of a Joey relaxing with the station just visible in the background.
Bullock Team at Thylungra Station - http://trove.nla.gov.au/work/153923747?q&l-decade=416&c=picture&versionId=167829433 Click on pics to enlarge then you can see houses in the background.
Several pictures of Thylungra here - http://trove.nla.gov.au/result?q=thylungra. Mentions a Mrs Brown but not John :(
These are dated 1924 so it could be he in the two people in the garden picture - Wouldn't the cook on a station be looking for tucker in the garden?
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From his Australian voters rolls' entries:
1925 Cook, Thylungra,
*Just in case connected, in 1925 next to John's entry is one for a Frank Holbert Forsyth, a labourer, Eromanga Post Office.
Monica
Still leaning towards this being a coincidence. Sometimes next door neighbours here in OZ are many miles away. In this case there is a road of sorts today from Thylungra south to Kyabra - 39 kilometres and then there is only a track for another 45 kms south to Eromanga. So the two were 84 kms from each other.
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If this is the same John Grant Forsyth, then he must have been at Thylungra for more than a decade:
The Brisbane Courier Monday 27th March, 1911.
Pastoral Matters
Charleville, March 25.
Three hundred high-class rams from Belltrees arrived by train, and leave there tomorrow for Thylungra station. Forsyth, Philip and Munro owners, Walter Martin in charge.
54 fat bullocks from Augathela will be trucked to Brisbane on Monday.
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Not the same Forsyth:
"James Forsyth was managing director of Burns, Philp and Co., Ltd. in Queensland. In 1899, he entered Parliament as the member for Carpentaria, and held the seat until 1918 when he retired. His pastoral interests were considerable, and included Thylungra, Bulgroo and Kyabra stations. His philanthropic legacies included provision for a Chair of Agriculture to be maintained at the University of Queensland. " From Libraries of Australia.
The three properties were sold off in April 1933 - see http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/76388423
However, for John Grant Forsyth to be a Cook at Thylungra, I wonder then if James was a relative?
No, he wasn't. He was born in Stirling, Scotland in 1852, so this is another Forsyth coincidence.
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This is absolutely fascinating. I recommend everyone to read these memoirs which not only mention James Forsyth a few times but give a wonderful description of what it was like to leave England for the Colonies on a sailing ship in the early 1860's - http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks/n00002.html
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Enjoying the links and the reading the material, Malcolm.
Hopefully someone can confirm William 1837's birth and parents details from his marriage to Marion Grant. This will let you all make the definite connections.
Going back to the beginning, I would agree with Ev that very likely William's parents' were William and Jane https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTRX-894 Lots of children show for them https://familysearch.org/search. Mother Jane's surname with a number of variants such as Ainsley/Emslie/Emsley etc.
1851 census here - all the children born in Canongate:
William Forsyth 47 labourer b. Ardersier, Invernesshire
Jane Forsyth 34 b. Aberdeen
Ann M Forsyth 17
William Forsyth 14
John Forsyth 11
Jane Forsyth 8
Alexander Forsyth 6
Eliza Forsyth 4
Andrew Forsyth 3
Mary Forsyth 1
Address: Abbey Court, Edinburgh Canongate
Edinburgh Parish Register records are some of the best in that pre 1855 era and the start of official registration. Parish Register entries mostly have very little info, pretty much no more than just names. However, for William and Jane's marriage, the entry includes Jane's father too https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XT1G-W7C
With my guessing hat ::), wonder if John Grant F's twin, Alexander may have been called after maternal grandfather and the 'A' middle name might be a variant of Ainsley? Scottish naming pattern, if used and it often was, can be a useful guide (see here for example www.halmyre.abel.co.uk/docs/Family/naming.htm).
Monica
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1861 here:
William Forsyth 57 miller b. Nairnshire
Jane Forsyth 47 b. Aberdeen
Alexander Forsyth 17
Andrew Forsyth 13
Mary Forsyth 11
James Forsyth 9
Address: Mallochs Close, Edinburgh Canongate
Now that I see Miller for occupation for William Snr. I am more confident that this is likely the right family. I saw entries over the weekend for a John Forsyth (who I thought might be this one https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTRX-FG6) who married in the London area in 1861 to a Charlotte Christina Salveson www.uk.mundia.com/gb/Person/21767501/1261078027 and lived for a time in Bermondsey (where we had your William and Marion). On his London parish marriage entry, this John gave his father as William Forsyth, a miller by occupation.
Monica
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This is all just wonderful, Monica. What great discoveries. I gave so much thought last night to what that 'A' after Alexander might have stood for, and it looks like you've cracked it. I can only think that at least in their early days the twins would have remained close to each other, so I'll have another search for Alexander in Australia.
Just a thought, re my Draffan family, we came to a brick wall decades ago when the researcher I paid for in Edinburgh found that the vital Lesmahagow Parish Register pages were Must Wasted at the end of the 18th century. Did they have something like Bishop's Transcipts in Scotland?
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Re Draffan family...why don't you do a new post on the Lanarkshire board? Lots of fresh eyes with access to lots of different local resources etc.
Monica
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Good idea, thanks Monica, will do.
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Alexander remains a mystery. No sign of him in England until 1911 when this pops up:
Name: Alexander Forsyth
Event Type: Census
Event Date: 1911
Gender: Male
Age: 45
Birthplace: Bermondsey London, London
Schedule Type: Household
Registration District: West Ham
Sub-District: Canning Town
Parish: West Ham
County: Essex
UkCensusOnLine
Alexander Forsyth 45 Clerk Essex 1866 Birthplace Bermondsey, London
I've checked FreeBMD for any Alexander Forsyth born 1865 or 1866 and there is only the one, the twin Alexander A.
In 1911 there are two more Forsyth's born Bermondsey at earlier dates and living in West Ham but at Walthamstow and not in Canning Town where we find Alexander. Perhaps he was back in the UK on a visit and found lodgings near relatives?
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You were certainly right with the interchangeability of names, Monica. I found loads of Emslie's in Aberdeenshire, so was beginning to think that that was the correct name. But Jane becomes Jane Ainslie as the mother of three of her children and Ann Emsly as the mother of Anne Murray Forsyth. Now there is an interesting new entry in the Forsyth names. So perhaps Jane's mother was a Murray?
This is a lesson for everyone to watch out for very different names.
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Great find for 1911. Where did he pop out of?!
Monica
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Great find for 1911. Where did he pop out of?!
Monica
That is the question, Monica, that is the question ???
The more we find, the questions multiply. Malcolm
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Have you seen the detail of 1911? Can't make sense of it ???
Monica
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Have you seen the detail of 1911? Can't make sense of it ???
Monica
Only what I found in Family Search and UKCensus on Line for 1911. Was there something else?
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There was another family of Forsyth's in Bermondsey at the time that Alexander was born there.
1871 Census
6 Records found
Piece: RG10/627 Place: Leather Market -Surrey Enumeration District: 2
Civil Parish: Bermondsey Ecclesiastical Parish: Bermondsey
Folio: 32 Page: 5 Schedule: 35
Address: 3 Guy Street
FORSYTH James Head M M 38 Pastry Cook Scotland - -
FORSYTH Rosina Wife M F 35 Gloucestershire - Cheltenham
FORSYTH James Son U M 9 Scholar Surrey - Bermondsey bp inc St Mary Magdalen
FORSYTH Arthur Son U M 8 Scholar Surrey - Bermondsey bp St Mary Magdalen
FORSYTH Rose Hanah Dau U F 4 Surrey - Bermondsey BP St Mary Magdalen
FORSYTH Isabella Niece U F 20 Domestic Servant Scotland - -
Found these while searching again for Alexander. It is notable that James was a Pastry Cook, and he also appears to have been a twin with a brother of the same age in the 1841 census at St.Andrew, Edinburgh. But otherwise I cannot see any connection with William and Mary.
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I know that there were at least two John Grant Forsyth's so this one may not be our man, yet we can see that he kept going to Australia from New Zealand. In December 1886 and January 1887 there are reports that he was brought back from Sydney to face charges of utterance - forging cheques. He got 2 years for that, but then he tried to get away to Sydney yet again. If this is the same John Grant Forsyth that we are looking for then we do know that he made it in the end and ended up for decades in Queensland.
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Looking at the indexes for the 1861 Census could be -
William Forsyth 24 born Canongate Edinburgh
Marion Forsyth 21 born St Marys Edinburgh
William Forsyth 1 born midlothian
Using http://www.freecen.org.uk/ likely candidates are -
Marion Grant , parents John and Margaret.
William Forsyth , parents William and Jane
SP also has a death for a Marion Forsyth(other surname Grant) 1906 Midlothian , born c1839 which may be connected :-\
ev
This is now looking very significant. Are we able to get more information on this death of Marion?
I see that there was a Marion Fosyth born about 1840 in Canongate, Edinburgh in the 1881 census. There was also an Alexander Forsyth born about 1866 in Canongate. Can anyone check to see if they were at the same address?
I now wonder if William left with perhaps son William and one of the twins, John Grant Forsyth for New Zealand leaving Marion and Alexander behind.
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NZ BDM's:
1889/1121(Registration Number) Mary Ann Woods to John Grant Forsyth
Just how long did this marriage last? Even if they married in January, it could only have been about 7 months, since he planned to leave on the 3rd August 1889.
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Didn't know you could be charged with desertion of your spouse. Wife sounded a tough cookie for sure!
Can't see an Alexander Forsyth born in Canongate c. 1866 either on IGI or the census. There is one born 1864 who shows with parents on the 1871 census https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/VQQ4-QVW.
The death for a Marion that Ev mentioned can only be viewed on the pay to view site www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/ The actual image is available to view and download from there. One of the problems with the index result on SP is that for married women, and the use of two surnames, is that you cannot tell until you pay/look at the image which name was maiden or married surname.
Monica
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Didn't know you could be charged with desertion of your spouse. Wife sounded a tough cookie for sure!
Can't see an Alexander Forsyth born in Canongate c. 1866 either on IGI or the census. There is one born 1864 who shows with parents on the 1871 census https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/VQQ4-QVW.
The death for a Marion that Ev mentioned can only be viewed on the pay to view site www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/ The actual image is available to view and download from there. One of the problems with the index result on SP is that for married women, and the use of two surnames, is that you cannot tell until you pay/look at the image which name was maiden or married surname.
Monica
This is the Alexander Forsyth I found in the Family Search 1881 census:
Name: Alexander Forsyth
Event Type: Census
Event Date: 1881
Gender: Male
Age: 15
Birthplace:
Registration District: Canongate
County: Midlothian
Birth Year (Estimated): 1866
GS Film number: 224001
I meant living in Canongate rather than being born there. As you can see his birthplace has been left blank.
I think we can be fairly sure that the Charlotte you found in the Farnham workhouse in 1911 is she. The only thing is that she is shown as being widowed and that could be well because Alexander didn't want to be responsible for any costs. So in a way the twins if that is what these two were, i.e. the sons of William and Marion, both disowned their wives in one way or the other.
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Hello Malcolm,
The Alexander Forsyth, you mention on the 1881. census is as follows.
Address, St. Marys Street, Edinburgh Old Church, Edinburgh. Film Number O224001.
Alexander Forsyth, Lodger, Waiter, Age 15 years, M. born London, Middlesex, England.
Regards,
Jonn.
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Many Thanks Jonn. There is a good chance then that this is the Alexander we are researching, only thing being that he was born on the Surrey side of the Thames in London, and in 1871 was living with his family on the Essex side. I don't think at that age he may have known the subtleties of London counties and there again he said he was born in Scotland in 1901 then changed it to Bermondsey, Surrey in 1911.
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Hello Malcolm,
I just looked at the census again and surprisingly the person above him is another Forsyth, who perhaps may also be his mother?
Maria Forsyth, Lodger, Gen Servant, W. age 41 years, F. born Edinburgh. This Maria, could be either a slight error on the part of the householder named Archer, giving information to the enumerator, its strange however two Forsyth's, living as lodgers together are not down as related.
Maria/Marion, this ladys age is correct on this census for the Marion Grant, who married William Forsyth. If this indeed is Marion, she is a Widow, at the time.
Regards,
Jonn.
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That's great Jonn. If this is Marion then it isn't surprising that she describes herself as 'Widow' rather than give away that her husband William had left her, and this is looking more and more like the case. I've just had another breakthrough with Elizabeth Borkoski who married the son William Forsyth in 1886. Appears that she was really Barkowski, rather than the other two names Borkoski and Barkoski which she used elsewhere. I've found the whole family on the Cartvale in the passenger list of October 1874, father Thomas and mother Marianne, all from Germany.
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Hello Malcolm,
I do not know if it has been mentioned on this thread there is a death 1906, in Edinburgh, for a Marion Grant Forsyth, age at death 67 years, which fits really well with the lady in question.
Regards,
Jonn.
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:o That sounds interesting, Jonn.
Monica
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Hello Malcolm,
I do not know if it has been mentioned on this thread there is a death 1906, in Edinburgh, for a Marion Grant Forsyth, age at death 67 years, which fits really well with the lady in question.
Regards,
Jonn.
Yes, thanks Jonn for mentioning that. Earlier in this thread, Ev found it, but we weren't sure how the Grant and Forsyth names were connected.
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It seems more and more likely that the elder William Forsyth who was married to Marion Grant, may have gone to New Zealand with his sons William and John Grant.
If this is the case then this death is possibly him:
Auckland Star 21 February 1914
THE WIDOW AND FAMILY OF THE LATE WILLIAM FORSYTH desire to thank all kind friends who sympathised with them in their recent sad bereavement. also for cards, letters and floral emblems received.
I wouldn't be at all surprised if he married again or passed someone else off as his wife, and the age fits the NZ BDM indexed entry:
1914/441 Forsyth William 78Y
That would make his birth year 1836 and we think it was 1837. The latest finds placing Marion Forsyth nee Grant and Alexander at the same address in Edinburgh in 1881 with no sign of William makes it more and more likely that he left the country.
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I was speed reading posts last night, missed your detail Jonn regarding Marion Forsyth also showing in the household in 1881 but been catching up now :P That really does feel that we have linked up to the London family now, in addition to 15 yr old Alexander also showing as born in London.
It seems more and more likely that the elder William Forsyth who was married to Marion Grant, may have gone to New Zealand with his sons William and John Grant....
Not necessarily, Malcolm ::) Let's be fair to William Snr., he may well have plain died between 1871-81! Mary/Marion is showing as a widow from Jonn's info in 1881. Maybe she was.
There is a death in Canongate for a William Forsyth in 1878, aged 40 (born c. 1838).
...Appears that she was really Barkowski, rather than the other two names Borkoski and Barkoski which she used elsewhere.
Spellings were so fluid in those times, there really was no right or wrong on how you are likely to find Elizabeth's surname coming up on registrations. Have a look at this link for the surname and variants www.britishsurnames.co.uk/surnames/BORKOSKI
IF we have the right entries for Marion and Alexander in 1881 and
IF we have a potential death for William Snr in Canongate, some outstanding info still needing confirmation:
That death mentioned by ev and Jonn for Marion in 1906 would help you and the other researchers a lot at this point. Similarly, having a look at that possible death for William Snr in 1878. If these deaths are confirmed, then at least you know what happened to this generation (William and wife Marion).
Their children:
Your William Jnr you all have well documented in NZ. In NZ at least from his marriage year of 1886. Death cert which Allan has, indicates he may have been there from mid to late 1870s. No trace of him in Scotland from 1871 census in London.
Good possibility for John Grant Forsyth's death in Queenland that can be confirmed. No trace of him in Scotland/England from 1871 census in London.
Alexander has now been found in Edinburgh in 1881. We think we have a marriage for him in West Ham in 1897. He then seems to have taken up with his sister in law, with whom he shows with in 1901 and 1911. His marriage registration from 1897 would let you confirm further.
Come a long way haven't we Malcolm, with everyone's help :)
Monica
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You have summed it up well, Monica. I do know that there were at least two William Forsyth's born circa 1837, but according to 1851 census one was in South Leith. The death I found in New Zealand could be the latter. However as you point out the only way to confirm all of this is to go for the certificates or view them if that I possible through Scotland's People? I'll investigate that today if I get a chance - am having some problem with our car.
It isn't all that old, we bought the Corolla new in 2008, but a warning light came on yesterday and the service people I go to found that it was something that is not supposed to ever go wrong. It is some kind of sensor which could cause the car to stop completely at any time. They've found a part available here, but what with the holiday weekend I can't get it done until Tuesday. They said only drive short distances and we have to go to Aldi's this morning. Fingers crossed.
Those Polish names get more screwed up because they were living in Posen which was Germany but now Poland again. In the diaries kept by the two migrants on the Cartvale they mention every time an infant died on the ship and sometimes say that 'another baby thrown overboard today'. In one case the diarist wasn't sure whether it was German or Polish and the other wrote that one was Dutch. Most of the names on the passenger list were British, so I fear that the Borkoski family may have lost one child on the voyage, maybe Andreas.
But you should see all the variations I've found for Elizabeth's mother which appears to have been mostly Kowaleski/Kowaleska. I think we have to go by what is written in the Church's baptism register which I found yesterday through Family Search. Patrinorum means 'Godparents' which is the end column. Another big find late yesterday was this page on Ancestry - http://boards.ancestry.com/thread.aspx?mv=flat&m=102&p=surnames.borkowski
I spoke at length yesterday with my daughter-in-law, Leanne, and she said that the family always thought that Elizabeth went to NZ alone, so finding the whole family on the ship was a surprise and now we can see the names of those some of the girls married. I've emailed the two who gave addresses, no reply yet.
Bomst as it was is now Babimost in Poland and there is a page with old postcards http://prussianpoland.com/bomst.html and it looks so quaint and typical of that part of Poland that was Germany. Striegau now Strzgom and Nissa now Nys are very much the same. Just wish it was possible to see these old towns as they were more than a century ago. Ilse tells me that she remembers some parts of Striegau that are in the old postcards but many lovely buildings went with the war.
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OK....can't resist the tempation anymore having spent so much time on this family this week!
We have the right deaths for Marion Grant 1906 and William Forsyth 1878....hurray ;D Closure on that line and generation. They did come back to Edinburgh after being in London c. 1871.
Firstly, Marion's death attached, died from heart failure. Looks like she remarried, to a Thomas Ramsay after William Forsyth's death. Death reported by brother in law, Andrew Forsyth, from 7 Parkside Terrace.
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For William and his death in 1878, who died from phthisis at the age of 40 :-\:
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Marriage between a Marion Grant and a Thomas Ramsay in 1884 in Canongate.
Bare in mind that in Scotland, women never lost (by law) their maiden surnames and would remarry using this surname. This is the reason why burial stones often show women's maiden surnames and also you can search on Scotlands People using both maiden and married surnames for women....a plus all round ;)
Monica
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Likely for Marion, with the info we now have, for 1891:
Thomas Ramsay 50 miner b. Shettleston, Lanarkshire
Marion Ramsay 51 b. Edinburgh
Address: 41 Rose St, Edinburgh St George
For 1901:
Thomas Ramsay 63 annuitant (meaning he was in receipt of some of annual pension/money) b. Shettleston, Lanarkshire
Marion Ramsay 64 charwoman b. Edinburgh
Address: 27 Jamaica Street, Edinburgh St Stephen
Monica
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Well done Monica, that death certificate certainly proved that William Forsyth, never went abroad.
Here is his mother on the 1881. census.
Jane Forsyth, Head Widow, age 69 years, born Aberdeen City, this is Jane Emslie.
Going by the death for William Forsyth, you posted both parents were still alive, so it looks like William Forsyth Senior, died sometime 1878 and 1881. there is one in Edinburgh 1880. who died aged 80 years, slightly out.
Jane Emslie Forsyth, later died in Edinburgh.
Regards,
Jonn.
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Thanks Jonn :) Fallen in love and obsessed about this family for over a week...sigh ::) ;)
Monica
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Hello Monica,
I was a bit intrigued by this family myself though only from yesterday, it looks like Jane Emslie Forsyth, died 1898, aged 86 years. Edinburgh.
Regards,
Jonn.
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Monica,
Looks like you are bang on about Marion, marrying the Ramsay chap. the death for Marion, 1906 is coming up on Scotlandspeople, with both names Ramsay, and Forsyth.
Regards,
Jonn.
Ps Sorry Monica, missed your post on Marions, death.
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Bare in mind that in Scotland, women never lost (by law) their maiden surnames and would remarry using this surname. This is the reason why burial stones often show women's maiden surnames and also you can search on Scotlands People using both maiden and married surnames for women....a plus all round ;)
Monica
This is such a good custom, though it would get cumbersome were we to retain all grandparents' and gt.grandparents' surnames. For a start a registrar would need a life time and many volumes just to record one person's names.
It reminds me of the time when I was a consultant with Cook's in London dealing with Overseas Visitors. In those days we weren't so liberated as today and I got quite embarrassed when a couple came in from South America and had completely different surnames - until they explained that in their country the wife kept her name always.
Talking of embarrassment, in 1956 I was working on the Tourist Class Passenger Counter at the Orient Line in Melbourne when an unmarried couple wanted to book a Double cabin. I referred it to our Tourist Passenger Manager whose reply was, "We are very broad minded in the Orient Line, but we are not running a floating brothel".
Today you don't think twice about it.
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I must say too, that I have been obsessed in searching this family and looking back there have been other times when I've dug high and low. Nevertheless I don't recall any other search being so intense. It is probably because we kept finding little titbits and somehow knew that there was more.
It is also satisfying to know that we've broken the brick wall that Allan Forsyth had tried to demolish years ago. Well we do have so much more available on the net today, so there is that.
There is also the fact that there is something very sad about William and Marion probably never seeing some of their family again.
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The search for this family is still not over with many curious questions raised every time we progress.
We now know that William Forsyth senior (b.1837) went back to Edinburgh with his wife Marion and one of their twin sons, Alexander, as he died in Edinburgh in 1878 and Marion and Alexander are in the 1881 census there.
This then faces us with the big question of how did William junior (b.1860) and his younger brother, the other twin, John Grant Forsyth get to New Zealand, or Australia?
First of all they don't turn up in any shipping list so far and this is most curious since we know that John lived much of his life in Queensland. There should at least be something in the Queensland immigration records. The bigger mystery is in their ages when they travelled.
William infers from his death certificate that he was in New Zealand for 75 years. That would mean that he left England when he was only 15 years old and if John was with him then he would only have been 9 years old. Perhaps father William did go with them, but returned to Scotland before 1878. This is very unlikely. Perhaps they travelled with other relatives.
I think the big clue is where we find them living in 1871, namely right next to the Tower of London. Those young minds had to be influenced by what they saw every day. The Pool of London lies between London Bridge and just below Tower Bridge. It was where all the sailing ships came into, and then left for all sorts of exotic places.
So did they stowaway, or climb aboard secretly and fall asleep in some hidden gangway below decks? Or perhaps William saw a way of leaving the dark corners of Allhallows Barking and signed on as an apprentice cook? If he jumped ship in New Zealand that would explain the lack of any immigration record.
So far we haven't established whether the rogue John Grant Forsyth who forged cheques and was brought back from Sydney to New Zealand in 1886 was the very same person as William's brother. He served two years in prison for that and then sometime early in 1889 he married Mary Anne Woods, only to desert her by August that same year and attempt once more to get to Sydney.
We do know that John, son of William and Marion died in Rockhampton in 1950 and that he had been working in the outback as a cook from the early 1900's. So could this police report of 12 March 1894 in Adelaide be him? Had it been a century later we might have thought that he had been watching too much of George and Mildred. :)
The search goes on.
* Removed newspaper cutting as infringing copyright.*
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Malcolm, I can't say how easy this is for you guys to source from there, but this looks to be the marriage reg for possibly the John Grant Forsyth from the earlier newspaper cuttings:
1889/1121 Mary Ann Woods and John Grant Forsyth - www.bdmhistoricalrecords.dia.govt.nz/home/
Monica
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Yes Monica, that looks like it has to be his marriage. I was leaving this to last, and did begin to order the Queensland death cert for John in 1953 but it came back 'no historical images', so only option is to get the full printed certificate which takes minimum 19 days. That should tell us how long he was in Queensland and I think in Australia.
I was also going to email the Eventide Home in Rockhampton but they don't publish an email address. The same funeral parlour is still there and I think they didn't have email on their site either, but I shall look again. There is a strong possibility that John had family since there is a Forsyth in the telephone directory for Gladstone.
We have had amazing results with the Borkowski's and have found a cousin in Christchurch who has photos of many of them including Thomas who was Leanne's gt.gt.grandfather. My cousin Alan Heath who has lived in Poland for much of his life found many many Borkowski entries in Polish Genealogy pages and we are getting a picture of what it was like in German Poland during the big uprising of 1863. Josef Borkowski was hanged in November that year as were many others involved in the rebellion against the Prussians and Russians. Thomas who came with his family to NZ would have been 28 years old at the time, so may even have been involved himself. We don't know the name of his father yet.
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Lots of detail there Malcolm...and new discoveries for the future too.
Monica
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Lots of detail there Malcolm...and new discoveries for the future too.
Monica
Yes Monica and I have been staggered by what I have learned through all of this. I was in travel for most of my life and in the old days Cooks put us through the most rigorous training with nearly 5 months in their own school class which was up on the 6th floor of their then huge building in Berkeley Street. We had to know just about every rail line, port, steamer, throughout the world and with Britain we had to learn every beach in the country from Skye to Land's End, whether, sandy, pebble or gravel. That was before you were allowed to assist a consultant and you remained just an assistant behind the scenes for about two years before being allowed to interview a client. Today a travel agent is merely a sales person handing out brochures.
Anyway my point is that I thought I knew every small town and of course countries not only in Europe but everywhere. Perhaps Cooks didn't even know that there was a very large country bordering Germany, called Kashubia. They even have their own language. I learned this from a Borkowski descendant who tells me that one of his cousins has found links to Kashubia.
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We see a 14yo William Forsyth, a twelve year old James, & a ten year old John traveling to NZ with other family members on the Peter Denny in 1874. It occurred to me that it is possible the boys (Wm. & John) could have travelled to NZ with other extended family.
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This family in the 1871 census appear to match the family you found on the Peter Denny, Allan. The ages of the children are a fair match.
Hornsey , Middlesex
Registration District: Edmonton
Household Gender Age Birthplace
Self Adam Forsyth M 40 Whitehaven, Cumberland
Wife Eliza Forsyth F 37 Kelso, Roxburgh
Daughter Anna Forsyth F 14 Hackney, Middlesex
Son Adam Forsyth M 12 Kelso, Roxburgh
Son William Forsyth M 9 Hackney, Middlesex
Son James Forsyth M 8 Hackney, Middlesex
Son John Forsyth M 7 Hackney, Middlesex
Daughter Agnes Forsyth F 5 Hackney, Middlesex
Main discrepancy is his wife here is Eliza and not Emma - so perhaps Emma died? The son Adam is missing but this looks like the Adam born 1859 - age matches - who married in London in 1881 - http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/m/o/n/Howard-Moncrieff/WEBSITE-0001/UHP-0005.html Note too, that the Adam the Father was also a Gardener and born 1831 another match.
In which case where on Earth did they get Lanarkshire from on the Passsenger List?
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Eliza Forsyth did die - July/Sep qtr of 1873 Edmonton district. Adam then married Emma Taylor in the April/June qtr of 1874 - St.George Hanover Square district, hardly any time before the Peter Denny sailed.
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We can definitely rule this family out as Adam Forsyth married Eliza Hardie and their son's full name was William Hardy Forsyth.
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Link to post on Australian board -
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=675767.msg5206256#msg5206256
ev
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Just a progress report on further searching for the Grant side of this family. I have found John Grant and Margaret and their sons Alexander and John in the 1861 census in Edinburgh - from Scotland's People. This shows them living at 3 Cumberland Street Lane, Edinburgh.
Tried to find it in Google maps but here there is a problem since there are Four Addresses - SW, SE, NW and NE Cumberland Street Lane - will try old maps shortly and see if that is any clearer.
John Grant senior has moved on from being a Pianoforte Maker in 1871 to an Organ Builder in 1861. Son Alexander is now a Managing Clerk at a Newspaper Office and son John is a Cabinet Maker's Assistant.
However there is no sign of them in 1871, not in the census nor in Statutory Death's. They may like the Forsyth's have gone south to London, but all I can find that may be a clue is the death of a Margaret Grant in Bermondsey in 1864. Since the Forsyth twins were born in Bermondsey in 1866 this is a possibility. If only the English death certificates were more informative and gave maiden names it would have confirmed whether she was Magaret Grant nee Aitken.
Thanks to Monica we know that Margaret's maiden name was Aitken and I have found her marriage to John Grant in 1832 which names her father as William.
Margaret gives her age as 48 in 1861 which would place her birth around 1813. There were three Margaret Aitken's baptised that year according to Family Search but none with a father William. There was a birth in 1811 of a Margaret with a father William Aitken and mother Jean Harvie, but I think she was more likely to have been the daughter of a William Aitken and Marion Mossman since Margaret named her daughter Marion Grant. If so then the baptism is missing and I can only go on the fact that William Aitken and Marion Mossman gave birth to a daughter they named Marion in 1815.
Upon reflection the Bermondsey Margaret's death certificate should have her age and if this shows that she was 51 in 1864 then that would be a strong lead. Is it possible to see the ages of deaths in any index without getting the certificate?
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Hi Malcolm
A great (free too!) place to search for BMD indexes is here www.freebmd.org.uk
I am not familiar with these indexes and when things were introduced but searching now, none of the entries for the page this Margaret Grant's death is recorded on seem to include an age at death.
Monica
Added: Re maps, this is a great site to have a look at www.edinphoto.org.uk/0_MAPS/0_maps_thumbnails.htm
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Thanks Monica. Yes, must agree FreeBMD is a great site and I have found so much there. FreeREG is great too (http://www.freereg.org.uk/cgi/Search.pl) but like FreeCEN there is so much missing and not transcribed yet. Beauty of FreeCEN (http://www.freecen.org.uk/cgi/search.pl) is that it shows everyone in the household and then you have the option to look at the next or previous household.
Years ago when working for Hemisphere Travel in Melbourne (now defunct) we had a BMD UK Service, and this was in great demand, so we had to have researchers in London and Edinburgh. I could tell a thousand stories about what came out in some searches. However, there was always a good number of tough one's where an entry just couldn't be found. Certificates were needed not only by other travel agents arranging travel documents, but for people who needed to prove who they were. One lady got quite upset when I suggested we could search the previous year for her own birth - she had lost all of her documents in one of our big bushfire outbreaks. We didn't charge a cent extra for any search since it didn't cost us either - in London our owner's sister went to Alexandra House twice a week and she only wanted a small fee for each certificate, not the search. However her time was limited then as she was still working and used to do the search in her lunch hour. So Tom or myself would make a trip home at least once a year and then spend hours tackling the hard ongoing cases. The lady aforementioned had been born a year earlier so that was found quite quickly.
One very elderly lady who came into our office needed her birth certificate for her pension. She like many others had come to Australia when only an infant and for some it was a shock to find out that they weren't Australian. When asked for her birthdate, she stood back, thought for a moment or two and then said, 'Well I feel about 70".
One very hard case was for a woman in her late thirties. We tried everything including other years. It was a bit desperate as she had booked to go overseas and time was getting short. Then one day we received an interstate call from her mother who calmly told us that she had her daughter's certificate and she would get the passport for her and make up some excuse. On no account were we to let the daughter know that she had been adopted.
Another case put us in touch with Gene Pitney, but that is another long story for another time.
You won't find my first marriage in FreeBMD, yet it is recorded in UK registers - I once looked it up in London and found it. You just have to know which register to look at. They keep separate books for consular marriages and ships at sea.
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;D I cannot begin to think of doing what you describe without the lovely online resources we have today. How lucky are we that so much available online (free or paid for). You paint such a picture of those times and what being in the travel industry was about! I did two months of that as a summer student job in London....finished me off :P
Monica
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;D I cannot begin to think of doing what you describe without the lovely online resources we have today. How lucky are we that so much available online (free or paid for). You paint such a picture of those times and what being in the travel industry was about! I did two months of that as a summer student job in London....finished me off :P
Monica
Being a travel agent in the 1950's/1960's was a whole different ball game. Cook's in London put us through months of training in a classroom on their 6th floor at Berkeley Street. It was like being back at school, similar desks, blackboard etc and even a head master. The British course lasted 5 weeks as did the Overseas Course, and Continental was 8 weeks - full time. Then you had about two or three years doing all the donkey work behind the scenes.
Today someone wants to fly from London to say Tunis and it is all done in moments on a computer, hotels everything.
Then it would mean-
Rail tickets London-Dover, Seat Reservations (Smoking/Non smoking, window corner or corridor seats, facing or back to engine). Meal tickets for afternoon tea in Pullman car.
Shipping ticket Dover-Calais, cabin requested occasionally, meal vouchers.
Rail Ticket Calais-Paris Gare du Nord - this involved checking the type of train, Express, Rapide or other. Seat reservations
Blue Meal Tickets for Dinner Calais Paris.
Cross Paris tickets Gare du Nord to Gare du Lyons or perhaps Austerlitz
Rail Ticket Paris-Marseilles. Couchettes or Sleeper reservation.
Blue Meal Tickets for Supper and Breakfast.
Uniformed Man at Marseilles to assist in transfer to Hotel.
Hotel booking Marseilles - usually reserved by Cable and Wireless - telephone at short notice
Uniformed Man following morning to assist transfer to Port
Shipping Ticket Marseilles to North Africa - cabin reservation.
Then you had to get them home again. We had to issue all rail tickets and for this one had to know ticketing points all over Europe, i.e. border points as different fares required for each country. Also had to know the German Kursbuch inside out and the thousands of different North American Railroad companies.
That is only the tip of the iceberg. Knowledge of each country was essential and you never knew what to expect. First thing I was given to work out when assisting a booking clerk was to work out the timetables from London to Oulu in the top of Finland. I was on call once a fortnight at home for the Daily Express who required a 24 hour service. Got home one night and had to get a reporter quickly to Tezpur on the Indian-Tibet border .... we would get news long before it appeared in the press.
Was on the phone for 5 hours one evening trying to cover all possibilities that Burgess and MacLean might make leaving Russia.
All changed today. Travel Agents are now only retail shops booking from brochures.
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Wow :o
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Something new has just come up. Allan has found that William Grant Forsyth and Elizabeth Borkowski had another son named Albert William Forsyth b. 1891 and Allan has found his Army record for his service during WW1. This not only gives addresses for his father and mother, but also a W Grant of 43 Brown Street, Ponsonby, Auckland which would have been about May 1915.
This may explain what John Grant Forsyth was doing in Auckland in 1886 away from his family in Christchurch.
Therefore it would be likely that the Forsyth Brothers travelled to New Zealand with their mother's Grant family. I shall now try and identify this W Grant and see if we can establish how they got to Aoteoroa. Any assistance would be very welcome.
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In the last few days with kind help from 'Middlesbrough' we have established that Marion Grant was the grand-daughter of William Aitken and Jean Harvey and that Marion's mother was Margaret Aitken born 1811 who married John Grant.
Margaret Grant/Aitken's death certificate names her parents as William Aitken and Jean Harvey.
See http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=232868.0
This earlier topic also lists Isobella Duncan Aitken as well as Margaret, and we can see from other My Heritage and Rootsweb listings that Isobella came to Australia on the Herald in 1844. Her descendants now live in Queensland.
Judging by an 1851 census which shows a William Aitken and Jane living in Edinburgh, it would seem that Jean or Jane was only 15 years when she married William at Coldstream (birthplace in 1851 census given as Gordon, Berwickshire which is close to Coldstream.)
The search for Margaret Aitken's father, known to be William from her marriage proclamation, was complicated by the age she gave in each census that put her birth year around 1812/1813 although we now know it was in 1811.
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Hi Malcolm :)
Great to hear of your continued progress.....!
Monica
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Thanks Monica. Solve one lot and up pops another - this time with my gt.grandfather James Draffan and his mysterious unknown marriages.
Cheers Malcolm
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Hi, I'm late to this conversation but it appears to be about my great-great-grandparents, William Forsyth and Marion Grant, and their sons. I might have some of the answers you are looking for... for example Alexander Emslie Grant's service in the British army in India/Pakistan and his later imprisonment for stealing a money order, or William (my great grandfather) Forsyth's journey to NZ as a cuddy servant in the merchant navy, and what may be a possible date for John Grant Forsyth's own enlistment in the merchant navy.
Of course I also have questions - for example, Alexander Emslie Forsyth's death was reported by his brother in law, J O' Donnell... so there must have been a relationship after Charlotte Wilkinson and Elizabeth Ann Wilkinson, but I haven't found it yet.
If anyone is interested, just tell me an email address and I'll invite you to view my ancestry.co.uk page.
Cheers,
Anne-Marie Forsyth
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A very big welcome to Rootschat, Anne-Marie. Your page on Ancestry has not gone unnoticed and though I don't subscribe to Ancestry one of your cousins who is descended from Isabella Duncan Aitken is and has been looking at some of your thumbnails in Ancestry. I don't think any of us knew about Alexander Emslie until we saw your thumbnails. Many of these I recognize such as Croft An Righ - but do you know the very strange coincidence that happened to me when I first found the old sketch and then Googled a street view?
The big mystery is who were the parents of Marion Grant's grandparents William Aitken and Jane/Jean Harvie. Lately we have been looking at the possibility that William Aitken's parents had moved from Newlands, Peebles to Edinburgh before 1803.
It looks like you have done wonders in tracking down William Forsyth as a Cuddy Servant and can't wait to learn more about his younger brother John getting to New Zealand and Australia. I have copies of his death certificate in Rockhampton and his marriage certificate to Mary Ann Woods in Hawera.
You will need to Post two more messages in Rootschat before you can send a Personal Message yourself, so may not be able to reply to the PM I am about to send you. I'll give my email address in a PM and then you can use that.
I trust that like myself you will find Rootschat about the best Forum on Family History anywhere, anytime.
Malcolm
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Welcome Annemarie
You will enjoy this wonderful site so many experienced researchers that are so very willing to help.
Malcolm33 and I have been researching William and Jean/Jane so it's great to have another on board, Malcolm33 is a good friend and very experienced researcher and loves a challenge, he has surprised me on more than one occasion with his find's.
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Nice to meet you both! I noted from someone else's tree that they gave William Aitken's parents as John Aitken (1756 - 23 Sep 1843 in Montrose) and Elizabeth Wishart. I haven't pursued that avenue yet (got side-tracked by more recent relatives) but I did note it on my list of things to look into sometime.
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H again Anne Marie,
Yes I had seen that research, William Aitken Montrose and had mentioned it to Malcolm but the census's points in another direction.
There is quite some misinformation regarding William in that respect.
So I for one will disregard it.
Cheers