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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Galway => Topic started by: John_K on Wednesday 18 September 13 13:59 BST (UK)
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Hi,
What would the likelihood be that a child was committed to the Ballinasloe Lunatic Asylum?
I've recently come across a Petty Sessions Court record which appears to be my great-grandfather having my great-grandmother committed on the grounds that she was a dangerous lunatic.
What's confusing me is that the court case is from 1913, and in the 1911 census my great-grandfather lists himself as a widower?
His wife's name was Catherine, but he also had a daughter Catherine who would have been about 9 years of age in 1913.
I'd be interested in your thoughts.
John
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Have you searched for the wife in the 1911 census? People in institutions should be listed by initials (for example, Mary Ryan listed as M. R.) so you might find her in the asylum at that time (might also explain why husband said he was a widower).
Not sure I understand this bit "What would the likelihood be that a child was committed to the Ballinasloe Lunatic Asylum?" Do you mean that you think a child of the couple was in the Asylum?
People were institutionalised for all sorts of conditions that were misunderstood or untreatable. Epilespy, autism, deafness, blindess, etc. are all possibilities.
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Have you searched for the wife in the 1911 census? People in institutions should be listed by initials (for example, Mary Ryan listed as M. R.) so you might find her in the asylum at that time (might also explain why husband said he was a widower).
Not sure I understand this bit "What would the likelihood be that a child was committed to the Ballinasloe Lunatic Asylum?" Do you mean that you think a child of the couple was in the Asylum?
People were institutionalised for all sorts of conditions that were misunderstood or untreatable. Epilespy, autism, deafness, blindess, etc. are all possibilities.
I'm looking at the moment, and a few C.K. entries are showing up in Galway in 1911. One possibility is the poorhouse? Some of the other court sessions I've discovered show Catherine having assaulted her in-laws who she lived with, so maybe they had removed her from the family home previously.
My reason for asking about the child was my assumption that Catherine the mother had died prior to 1911. So I didn't want to go off in a wild goose chase if there was a possibility that the child was the one that was committed.
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Taking a quick look at 1911 census- 4 females C.K. who are married (aged 40-66) but only 1 gives number of years married and how many children.
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Taking a quick look at 1911 census- 4 females C.K. who are married (aged 40-66) but only 1 gives number of years married and how many children.
Portumna Workhouse?
I believe I'm looking at the same record, and am quite convinced that I have found her. The number of years married matches, the number of children match, the age is approximately right, and the village Duniry is close to the townland on Newtownbracklagh. So much so that we always said we were going to Duniry when visiting my grandparents.
So strange that my great-grandfather listed himself as a widower...
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Thought that might be her ;)
Take a look again at the husband's census page- did he sign and fill it out himself or was he illiterate and someone else did it for him (see bottom of page for signature, etc.). If someone asked him the questions and filled it out imagine the conversation. Name, age, etc. then "Wife?" answer "No" (meaning she's not here), "were you married?" answer "yes" so widower was put down.
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Thought that might be her ;)
Take a look again at the husband's census page- did he sign and fill it out himself or was he illiterate and someone else did it for him (see bottom of page for signature, etc.). If someone asked him the questions and filled it out imagine the conversation. Name, age, etc. then "Wife?" answer "No" (meaning she's not here), "were you married?" answer "yes" so widower was put down.
Looking at the census return for the first time in a while, I'm confused again? Patrick completed the return himself as he could read and write, however all 7 children are listed ???
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If you post the link for him I'll have a look.
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If you post the link for him I'll have a look.
This is his census return for 1911
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai002442908/
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Is it possible that wife's details are incorrect- i.e. there should be 7 living children?
Do you have the details of all their children? are there 7 and had 2 died by 1911?
If could just be that Patrick didn't want to account for a 'missing' wife on the form and said he was a widower- having a wife in an asylum (for whatever reason) would have been difficult in those days.
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Is it possible that wife's details are incorrect- i.e. there should be 7 living children?
Do you have the details of all their children? are there 7 and had 2 died by 1911?
If could just be that Patrick didn't want to account for a 'missing' wife on the form and said he was a widower- having a wife in an asylum (for whatever reason) would have been difficult in those days.
The wife's details could be incorrect, as this picture builds it's quite possible she was in a distressed state of mind.
Looking at the names of the 7 children on the 1911 census, I've met 5 of them over the years. They're all dead now. However I don't believe I've ever met Catherine or Patrick, and don't know much detail about them.
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If you post the link for him I'll have a look.
Getting caught up in the moment earlier, I forgot to say thanks for your help aghadowey :)
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I just sent for a death certificate for a Catherine Kilcar, if it's the correct lady, it may answer some more questions...
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If your great-grandmother did become a patient of the asylum, it would be worth contacting the hospital to see if the records are available.
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If your great-grandmother did become a patient of the asylum, it would be worth contacting the hospital to see if the records are available.
I hadn't thought of that, although it was on my mind. I remember reading somewhere that in the RDL in Dublin, they photographed the patients as they were admitted.
Thanks!
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I don't think photos were always taken in Irish asylums. I've seen some though and they don't always make nice viewing. The hospital may get you to apply using the Freedom of Information Act. If you're contacting them, I would mention that you're a direct descendant. It might make a difference.
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I don't think photos were always taken in Irish asylums. I've seen some though and they don't always make nice viewing. The hospital may get you to apply using the Freedom of Information Act. If you're contacting them, I would mention that you're a direct descendant. It might make a difference.
Thanks again, I will try that route, she would have been my paternal great-grandmother.
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My OH's great grandmother described herself as a widow from about 1914 onwards to claim a pension; this is documented e.g. when her son died during WW1 his records show her as a widow and his next-of-kin; her husband actually died in 1920 and his death cert shows he was living at that time at the same address as she and the family always lived at! What was happening between them for a about 6 years I do not know!
There is a possibility that Patrick had Catherine committed knowing she would not be released from hospital (based on the reason of commital) and from that time on described himself as a widower.
This was not an unusual occurance unfortunately and something to bear in mind.
Some families would not want to have any associations with a "mental hospital" or "mental illness" and not admit to neighbours and extended family what happened to certain members of their family.
This is something to bear in mind - stating you are a widower does not make it gospel!
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I suppose it teaches us something myluck!
Until we see a death certificate, we should assume the individual is not a widow/er.
I'll follow up on this with interest, I'm not even sure if my father's generation are aware of this story.
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Until we see a death certificate, we should assume the individual is not a widow/er.
Even death certificates contain errors- a 'recent' family one lists wife as a widow but we know her estranged husband died 9 years later. His death certificate says divorced but that's not straight-forward either ;)
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Until we see a death certificate, we should assume the individual is not a widow/er.
Even death certificates contain errors- a 'recent' family one lists wife as a widow but we know her estranged husband died 9 years later. His death certificate says divorced but that's not straight-forward either ;)
Oh what a tangled web we weave...
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My great grandfather worked at the Ballinasloe Lunatic Asylum his name was Patrick John Byrne (1882) and his wife was Nora Fallon (1884) I wonder where/if I could find some more information regarding his employment there. I have also found a William Byrne and his wife Bridget Flynn who were the Gate Porters at the District Asylum. Looks like their son Thomas Christoper Byrne was born there. I presume they lived somewhere on the site? Must have been awful.
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Hi Marion,
I to have been looking for employee's records as my granddad worked there to he was there on the 1911 census and probably some years after but had no luck yet.If I get any info will PM you.
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I am not sure where the old staff records are held, if still available.
After the formation of the state it was ran by the County Council and then it was under the Western Health Board from c1970 when that was formed
LINK (http://file:///C:/Users/manion_c/Downloads/WesternHealthBoardReviewOfActivities1Apr71_31March81.pdf) to one statistical report.
The hospital closed a few years ago and is still owned by the HSE as far as I am aware
The HSE may be able to help as to where historic files are.
You could also try:
Galway Family History Society West Ltd.
St. Joseph’s Community Centre, Ashe Road, Shantalla, Galway City
Patrick BYRNE was already working in the Hospital when he married Norah FALLON in 1914 LINK (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1914/09867/5584022.pdf)
LINK (http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Galway/Ballinasloe_Urban/Townparks/448725/) to 1911 census for Asylum showing staff including Patrick BYRNE & Norah FALLON
ARTICLE (http://www.historyireland.com/18th-19th-century-history/tales-from-the-big-house-the-connacht-district-lunatic-asylum-in-the-late-nineteenth-century/) on St. Brigid's Ballinasloe's history including a photograph of staff in 1935
Photograph of Building (http://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000557912)
LINK (http://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000555014) - There are further photographs at the National Library
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My luck thank you for links I will contact the HSA and see if they hold the records.
Many thanks
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Have been in touch with HSA and they said there was no records to there knowledge.
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I called today too and yes same as you. There is another hospital - st Bridget’s I called them but they knew nothing.
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Any budding genealogists here?
Am totally stuck with a link on Ancestry??
Best wishes
Sheelagh
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Assume you mean the HSE,
It's extremely unlikely any staff records survive, did you try my luck's other suggestion of the Galway Family History Society?
If it's earlier family you want to trace, we can probably help with that.
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Sorry yes meant HSE. I did try the Galway Society but nobody answered. Will try again on Monday.
Thank you
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Nora says her father is John a farmer on the marriage and she is 26 from Co. Galway on the 1911 census so I wonder if this is her in 1901
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Galway/Killoran/Ballinrooaun/1368387/
This Honoria is not with the family in 1911.
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Yes I saw that, I think it maybe her. I have some doubts about the information I have about who she married Patrick Byrne? Happy to share what I have so far - its on ancestry site though.
Thanks