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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Clackmannanshire => Topic started by: Tom Piper on Saturday 21 September 13 20:44 BST (UK)
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Hi
The above named person was the son of William Sharp & Christina Wright, born 18 March 1871 in Tillicoultry (IGI). On the 4th January, 1888, a child, William McGregor, was born to Maggie McGregor in Milnathort, Orwell, Kinross. The birth record has William's name upon it. Later, on 2nd May 1889, the Sherrif's court of Clackmannan, endorsed the fact that the above named William Sharp of Sandhole, by Tillicoultry as the official father of the child of Maggie McGregor.
I think Sandhole was a sand quarry not far from Tillicoultry, does anyone know anything more than that, or can suggest how I might find more about it? It would appear that William was living there in 1889, in 1891 he was in Tillicoultry with a woman called Elizabeth Sharp, whom I think is his step-mother, also a sister called Janet and a brother called Thomas.
Tom
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The National Library of Scotland maps website will give you free access to old maps of the area. If you click on the "Series" maps, you will find large-scale 19th century Ordnance Survey maps which should show Sandhole.
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GR2
Thanks I found the sand pit, right opposite the cemetery, now need to find out who may have owned it around 18880-1893.
There was a druid temple found there it would seem.
Tom
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I am interested in your research. I believe William Sharp (born 1871) is my great grandfather.
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Hi pumpkin lady
How fascinating, okay we'll he's not a relation of mine either but I know someone apart from you who is related to him. William seems to disappear after 1891, I can't find him in the census after that. No doubt you will know about his son William who emigrated to USA and settled in Massachusetts. Do you anything more about this Sandhole & William Sharp?
Tom
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William Sharp's son, (William McGregor) who immigrated to Massachusetts around 1912, is my grandfather. I don't know anything about Sandhole. I have been researching this for a long time and have come up with nothing. Do you know if William Sharp ever married?
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Hi Pumpkin Lady
This is is the clue about Sandhole & Tillicouitry:
Register of Corrected Entries for the Parish of Orwell in the County of Kinross.
In the Fourth Column of Entry No. 4 in the Register Book of Births for the year 1888, before the Name of the Child’s mother insert William Sharp on the authority of a certificate in the Form Schedule F to the following effect:- In an action relating to the paternity of a child named William McGregor born 4th January 1888, at the instance of Maggie McGregor, Domestic Servant, Milnathort with consent Concurrence of David McGregor, shoemaker, Town Hall, Milnathort, aforesaid as her curator in law against William Sharp, Sandhole by Tillicoultry the Sherriff Court of Clackmannan on the 27th day of March, 1889 found that the child was the illegitimate child of the Parties aforesaid.
Milnathort, 2nd May 1889, Alex Millar, Registrar.
On William McGregor's birth certificate, which I will send you, William Sharp is named as the father, but not by William Sharp, but by William McGregor's grandfather, who registered the birth. Either William Sharp disputed this document or the Parish sought to clarify matters so as not to be liable for care of the child should either the mother or his grandfather die.
At present I can't find anything more about William Sharp beyond 1891 when he is at home in Tillicoultry with his step-mum Elizabeth. Without a subscription to Scotland's People or access to the local newspaper for Tillicoultry, which might have mentioned things about either Sandhole or William Sharp, it's difficult to trace any further. Maybe he went off to fight in the Boer War.
I will send you a PM.
Tom
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Hi - Don't have much info re William Sharp (jnr) born 1871, but from my notes (yes he is a relative somewhere along the line) ;)
What I do have !!!!
William Sharp (snr) born 1844 at Tillicoultry. parents (to the best of my knowledge) John & Ann Sharp.
William (snr) married Christian Wright 22 May 1868 at Dollar, Clackmannanshire.
Children - Christian Sharp 1869 Dollat, William 1871 (entry does say Downside ??), George 1880 Alloa, Ellen 1882 Alva, Madge 1897 Edinburgh.
William (jnr) is last sighted in 1881 at Alva !!
Doubt that the census report with a stepmother is correct as that William was born in 1874 ??
in 1891 the family (barring William jnr are at Glendevon, Perthshire. And in 1901 they are at Leith in Midlothian.
Hope this helps :D like you am not having much luck with William Jnr.
Regards Patvp
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Patvp,
Actually it's me who has made a mistake, & mixed up 2 William Sharps born within 2 years of each other. The one born in 1871, son of William Sharp & Christina Wright dies in 1886 in Glendevon; I will send you a PM explaining the cause of his death which is still for me a mystery, but not suitable for public viewing. In 1886, the family were in Glendevon, as they are in the census of 1891.
The other William Sharp, born 1873, son of John Sharp & Elizabeth Hutton is born in Tillicoultry, and was there in 1891, but aged 15 at time of birth of child. He went on to marry and have a family, living in Partick in 1901 & 1911.
There was another William Sharp, born 1859, who in 1891 is living at the same address as the above William, he was married in 1891, to an Isabella, they had married in 1888, I now have the date, were childless in 1891 & 1901.
I have another thread awaiting moderator's approval below this one, which if allowed would explain the problem. The identity of this conundrum is all within the records of the sherriff's court of Clackmannan, which aren't available at National Archives of Scotland, it looks they have been weeded out, but they might be in a local newspaper for the area like Tillicoultry News, but this isn't online, but available on microfilm at Alloa library.
Tom
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Hi all again,
It appears that William did not appear at the hearing, but in his absence was ordered to pay a fee of £6 10 shillings a year for twelve and a half years. But still no further forward with his identity, so although the result of the case is known, the original papers are not available, so I am hoping somone in the Alloa area can help me.
Tom
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Children - Christian Sharp 1869 Dollat, William 1871 (entry does say Downside ??),
Can't be absolutely sure without seeing it, but "Downside" may actually be Devonside.
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Isabel
Yes I agree, there is a Devonside even now isn't there? I have through the Clackmannanshire Archives established that neither the Tillicoultry News or the Alloa newspapers reported the hearing when William Sharp of Sandhole, Tillicoultry failed to turn up at the hearing and was awarded a fee of £6 10 shillings a year child maintenance. By the way the birth place of Christina was Dollar, not Dollat, just a transcription error. I am now trying Kinross & Perthshire Archives for a newspaper in Maggie McGregor's home town.
Tom
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Hi all again
There is nothing in the Kinross newspapers either about the hearing, maybe it was such a common occurrence so not worth reporting on. I have been looking at a number of marriage records as they appear on Scotland's People & Census records, the writing is all very similar making me wonder if they were all copied from original documents as opposed to being the actual original documents. Has anyone else had the same experience? If they are copies can anyone see the originals?
Tom
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Thanks to Excel I now know how William Sharp of Glendevon died; all the time the answer was in 19th Century British Newspapers which I can access online through my local library. It's all about thinking sideways-I looked in the Scottish Newspapers available without looking in the English Ones and putting in a search for William Sharp instead of Glendevon. Several newspapers reported that a mill-worker called John Sharp had been killed when his friend George Allan, a groom had fired a gun, the contents of which struck Sharp in the face causing his death-a tragic accident it appears, no proceedings were taken against George Allan.
Tom
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Tom, just been reading your other post here www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=664851.0
Thought best to use this one here as it has all the background to your searches.
What showed on William's birth (marriage/death) cert regarding his father William's occupation? What year was Maggie McGregor born?
Unusual that the registrar let William Snr's name go on the birth cert in the first place...if he wasn't present at the birth. Maybe he was present, in the company of Maggie's father who was the informant (not a happy gathering you would think ::)). Normally both parents would need to be present, where the birth is illegitimate, to enable the father's name to go on the cert at all. If he was not present, normally the birth was registered only under the mother's maiden surname. If at a later date, such as in this case, where Maggie took legal action against the father for maintenance, the registrar would go back to the birth registration and make a note (indicating there was a further entry with more info on the Register of Corrected entries - RCEs). The RCEs references normally show on the left hand side margin, next to the first column. Scotlands People have been adding these RCEs, where available, to their images over the years.
Monica
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...I have been looking at a number of marriage records as they appear on Scotland's People & Census records, the writing is all very similar making me wonder if they were all copied from original documents as opposed to being the actual original documents. Has anyone else had the same experience? If they are copies can anyone see the originals?
Forfarian gave me an excellent explanation for this and happy for me to quote:
There were two copies of each register. One was the original, signed by the informant/couple themselves. The other was a duplicate made by the Registrar. At the end of each year the Registrar had to send one copy to Edinburgh. If he sent the original, you get the actual signatures on SP, but if he sent the copy you don't.
The copy not sent to Edinburgh was retained by the Registrar and in due course most of them were collected in a central registration office in each county. There was a move to destroy some if not all of these, whcih was being fought by the genealogical world. I don't know what the outcome is.
I was doing some research the other day where getting the original signature was vital for the bride, to then confirm the signature with other documents. Thankfully she married twice. First time, SP had imaged up the original register with her original signature. The second marriage was a copy by the registrar that had then been sent to Edinburgh, used to provide the image by SP in later years.
Monica
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What year was Maggie McGregor born?
Was just trying to get a feel for how old Maggie was when she had son William. So, she would have been about 19?
Is this her birth here in 1869? https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XY55-8N5 and then the family entry in 1881, with father David being the informant?
David McGregor 55 bootmaker b. Arngask, Perthshire
Christian McGregor 54
Mary McGregor 18
Jessie McGregor 16
Margaret McGregor 11 b. Orwell
Christian Coventry 87 mother in law
Address: Town Hall Commercial Hotel New Rd, Milnathort, Orwell
William McGregor, shows with his maternal grandparents in 1891 and 1901 at the same address.
Tom, I know you have all of this ;) Just trying to check how old Maggie was against any possible William Sharps!
Monica
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Hi Monica,
Yes Maggie McGregor born 1869:
Name: Margaret Mcgregor, Birth Date: 03 November 1869
Birthplace: Orwell, Kinrossshire, Scotland
Daughter of David Mcgregor & Christian Coventry
So on 4 January 1888 she would have been 19.
Tom
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Monica
As you can see I am trying to find a description of this William Sharp, at least his age, so I can then work out which William Sharp it was who was the father. I have already discovered that one of them got married soon after the birth of William McGregor but he and his wife didn't have any children at all.
Tom
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The William Sharp you mention, is the one I would have my money on...given his occupation and location.
How to firm it up?
Reason I asked (for clues) as to what occupation showed for William Sharp Snr in his son's registrations. This is all you will have for later years, and then trying to connect back.
What you have found on the paternity documentation for William Snr is pretty standard really. A snapshot in time really :-\
Monica
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Hi Monica,
Unfortunately the birth record of William Mcgregor does not show the occupation of William Sharp, it does show the occupation of his mother Maggie McGregor, as domestic servant. I have read the article on the National Archives of Scotland now though, so now I think the sandpit itself was owned by Robert George Wardlaw Ramsay of Tillicoultry House, which I see from the 1891 map was just below the house. So the Wardlaw Ramsey's owned the sand pit, but John Davie, a plasterer of Alloa was the tenant, so he paid a rent to Wardlaw Ramsey. Now a plasterer might need sand for his occupation. I have found John Davie, a plasterer, living in Viewfield Place, Alloa in the 1891 Census.
So it's quite likely that a plasterer like John Davie might well employ people at the sand pit like William Sharp.
In the 1891 Census, there is William born 1873 is at home in 4, Paton Street, Tillicoultry living with his mother, Elizabeth, again father John is not shown on the census. Also at home is his brother Thomas & sister Janet. His mother is working as a picker of a clothing factory.
Also in 4 Paton Street, in the same 1891 Census is another William Sharp, born 1859, Dollar, married to Isabella. They have no children, and in 1901 they still have no children. It would seem that this William is a relation of the Sharp family, who reside at this address.
You can see why I need that description.
John
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So these are the Sharps you mention, with mother Elizabeth that you have in the censuses - http://records.ancestry.co.uk/john_sharp_records.ashx?pid=49830968 There are a number of trees for this line on ancestry such as this one (if you can access via a subs or via a library access) http://trees.ancestry.co.uk/tree/60036866/person/42053163983
Thinking specifically about dates. William McGregor/Sharp was born 4 January 1888. Assuming full term for pregnancy, Maggie and William Sharp must have been 'together' c. March 1887. The William Sharp, son of John S and Elizabeth Hutton was born in July 1873 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XYTY-KL5, so would have been 13 when baby was being made :-\ Happens/happened, but pretty unusual, even today.
I do not think a boy of this age would have been referred to, as you have in the documents, as 'William Sharp of Sandhole' and being asked at that young age to make the sort of financial contribution you have found in the papers regarding paternity...
Can I ask, has anyone looked at the detail of that 1888 marriage for William Sharp to Isabella to check where this William was living at the time of his marriage?
One other possible check would be to have a look at the valuation rolls for the area to see who showed there as tenants or occupiers in the period of 1886-88. This check can only be done in person in the locality at a main reference library (don't think that is practical for you though :-\). The 1885 valuation rolls are now available online at Scotlands People (other years too). Voters Rolls?
You have confirmed that a John Davie was the tenant of the sandpit. In what years? You mention that you have him in 1891 living at Viewfield Place, Alloa.
William McGregor/Sharp seemed to go throughout his life under the surname of McGregor. Did he marry in the Massachusetts? Guess there was no mention of his father on his marriage and/or death cert?
Monica
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MonicaL
On 16th June, 1888, at the Manse Office, after Banns, according to the form of the Church of Scotland, William Sharp, a coachman, bachelor, aged 30 years, son of William Sharp, Labourer & his wife Betsy formerly Thomson married Isabella Beveridge, 31 years, spinster, daughter of David Beveridge, a farm servant & his wife Isabella Beveridge, formerly Henderson. They are married by Stepander Bayern, Minister of Alloa, in presence of one other & William Beveridge-registered 19 June.
In 1891: 4, Paton St., 1 house,
William Sharp, head, marr, 32, Justiseman at Mine, employed, born Tillicoultry
Isabella Sharp, wife, marr, 38, born Tillicoultry.
In 1901, William & Isabella Sharp are living in Devonside, Tillicoultry, married but Childless, William is a carter.
There are other co-incidences too with Maggie McGregor too which I followed up.
Maggie Mcgregor was the daughter of David McGregor and Christina Coventry. She was born in 1869 in Milnathort, Kinrosshire. In 1891, having had a son born in 1888, she leaves him at home with her parents, and goes to work at a house in Milnathort inhabited by a May Henderson & her grandmother Janet Wright.
This is the household:
Registration number: 463, Registration District: Orwell, Civil Parish: Orwell
Town: Milnathort, County: Kinross, Address: Mayfield New Rd
May Henderson 20, bn abt 1871, Springburn, Lanarkshire, Living on Private Means
Janet Wright 85, bn 1806, Sewell, Kinrosshire, Grandmother to May Henderson, Annuitant
Jeanie Dempston 35, Ladies Companion
Jeanie Mackie 15, Cook.
Maggie McGregor, age 21, domestic servant
born: Milnathort, Kinross Shire -
Maggie McGregor
The same household in 1881, of course Maggie isn’t there, but the household consists of:
Janet Wright, 75, born Orwell, Kinrosshire, Living on interest of invested money.
May Henderson, 10 years bn. Glasgow, Lanarkshire,
Ellen Henderson, 8, bn. Glasgow, (granddaughter of Janet Wright)
Grace Coventry, 23, bn. Bigton, Sketland, Governess
Ann Anderson, local girl, cook,
Magdalene Beveridge, 16, bn Milnathort, Cook/nurse
Address: Mayfield Whitehorn New Rd
So you see the surname Henderson crops up again with the name Beveridge as well. In answer to your previous question William McGregor never did learn the identity of his father. Much of the time he stays with his grandfather rather than his mother who eventually married a man called John Taylor. You are also right that A******y has several sharp trees, at least two of whom are mine. William Mcgregor eventually emigrated to USA and I have been in touch with his relatives there too, who are also trying to find the father of William. Certainly the older Sharp seems the most likely, but that's as far as it goes, without a description we still don't know.
Tom
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Know you have obsessed on this all, we can all see from your info. Such a hard search you have here. With this type of research, you only really have a couple of hard facts to work from on the father's side. You can only just hope for a lucky break on the info along the way...
Have to admit I had a different family in my head for William Sharp who married Isabella in 1888. His age is later years was certainly much lighter which confuses, also his place of birth differs. His occupation from his marriage in 1888 certainly has no bearing to what he was doing by the time of the 1891 census does it.
Frustration, with you :'(
Monica
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MonicaL
Thanks for your interest-it's been good to visit the subject again.
Tom