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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Topic started by: gc1 on Sunday 22 September 13 12:20 BST (UK)
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Hi Roots Chatters :)
I'm hoping you can help me find the marriage of my wife's grandparents in Gibraltar
Frederick Alfred Burls (1898 – 1989)
Muriel Fredriqua Vanstone (1901(3))
Many thanks
Gerry :D
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hi Gerry
firstly birth record for Muriel Frederica Vanstone reg dist st germans cornwall jul-sep 1903 vol 5c page 27 .
looked up her marriage to Frederick a burls but nothing shows at all which is unusual as I,d expect to find it in consular marriages or army marriages do you know why they wed in gib ?
regards
trevor
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Hi Trevor
Thanks for your reply.
Frederick, known as Alf, moved there with his parents when he was 13 and Muriel was there with her family due to father being in the Navy.
Frederick's dad work in the Naval dock yards as an engineer.
The only other bits of information I have are that Alf's younger sister Phoebe, saved a sailor from drowning in the docks at age 13, she then died around age 15. There was another brother, name unknown and older sister, Eleanor, known as Nelly.
Regards
Gerry
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I had a look at The Vanstone Web (www.Vanstoneweb.co.uk), but can't see Muriel?
If you know her parents names, they are probably there - and there will be a long family tree, too!
Have you looked under Vanston (without the e?). My lot were in Jersey in the 1841 census under Vanston!
In 1929, there are Frederick Vanstone (57), a Civil Servant, Mary G Vanstone (55), and Dorothy G Vanstone (24) sailing on the Rawalpindi (P & O).
Last permanent residence: Gibraltar. Arrival London 10th May, but they disembarked at Plymouth.
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Thank you K Garrad
I will look at the link you sent
I will also check out the P&O sailing you mentioned
Regards
Gerry
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Hi, whilst not what your looking for, Muriel Burls died aged 84 November 1987 Bromley Kent. DOB GIVEN AS 18.7.1903.
John
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Father Frederick W Vanstone was a Ship's Steward in 1901, and the same in 1911.
He obviously progressed from there to being a Civil Servant?
Do you have the census returns?
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Hi John
Thanks for Muriel's death details. DoB still in question. Family say 1901 all enquiries say 1903?
Hi K Gerrard
Thank you for Frederick Snr details. Is this Vanstone not Burls as it seems strange as I was told Frederick Burls father was also Frederick. I guess both parents could be Frederick?
No I don't have any census on any of the family would be good to have if you have them.Thanks
Regards
Gerry
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Muriel was indeed born in 1903!
From FreeBMD:
Births, September qtr 1903
St Germans district vol 5c, page 27
Vanstone, Muriel Frederica
Also:
March qtr 1899
St Germans district vol 5c, page 26
Vanstone, Lionel Frederick
March qtr 1905
St Germans district vol 5c, page 31
Vanstone, Dorothy G A
December qtr 1906
St Germans district vol 5c, page 28
Vanstone, Queenie Eileen
1901 census: Class: RG13; Piece: 2186; Folio: 143; Page: 10
Armada Road, Cawsand, Rame, Cornwall
Vanstone, Mary G Head Married F 26 b Cawsand
Vanstone, Lionel F Son M 2 b Cawsand
(next door is a Cock family! George & Elizabeth)
Marriages, September qtr 1897
St Germans district vol 5c, page 51
Vanstone, Frederick William
Cock, Mary Grace
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We can't give details of the 1911 census (copyright issues), but the children are all on those births registrations I gave you.
As I said, father Frederick is with the Navy in 1901 and 1911.
1901 census reference:
Can't see him in 1891, but here he is in 1881:
Class: RG11; Piece: 2279; Folio: 88; Page: 18
Duck Street, Cawsand, Rame
Vanstone, Sarah Jane Head Married F 34 b Rame, Cornwall
Vanstone, John A Son M 14 Grocers Boy b Rame
Vanstone, Elizabeth Daughter F 11 Scholar b Rame
Vanstone, Fredrick W Son M 9 Scholar b Rame
Vanstone, Jim Son M 3 b Rame
Vanstone, Ellen Daughter F 1 b Rame
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KGerard
WOW thank you so much :)
Lots there to sift though ;)
May I come back to you once I've had a look if I have any other questions ???
Once agin thank you
Regards
Gerry :D
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Please feel free to ask questions!
My great-grandmother was a Vanstone, so I am always happy to share knowledge of the family! ;D
While I wait, here's the 1871 census of Frederick's family:
Class: RG10; Piece: 2228; Folio: 95; Page: 32
Garnett Street(?), Cawsand, Rame
Vanstone, James F Head M 30 Stoker HM Navy b Plympton St Mary, Devon
Vanstone, Sarah Jane Wife F 24 b Cawsand
Vanstone, John James A Son M 4 Scholar b Cawsand
Vanstone, Elizabeth Eliza Daughter F 1 b Cawsand
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In 1891, young John James Vanstone is with his grandmother, Mary Andrews (62) in Rame
Reference: Class: RG12; Piece: 1806; Folio: 82; Page: 19
Therefore this looks to be the marriage of his parents?
December qtr 1865
St Germans district vol 5c, page 79
Vanstone, James Alfred
Andrews, Sarah Jane
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Hi KGarrard
Thank you for all you have given me so far and also of your kind off to share more help if I need it
As I have said this is my wife's side of the family so I will wait for her to take it all in and get back to you
(Edit) Do you have the DoB for James Alfred Vanstone who married Sarah Jane Andrews please?
Kind Regards
Gerry
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Hi KGarrard
Can I ask you to clear up a query for me.
You said "In 1891, young John James Vanstone is with his grandmother, Mary Andrews (62) in Rame"
So I guess that must be Sarah Jane's Mother but I have her as Diana (see below) Have I got this wrong?
Sarah Jane Andrew, "England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975"
Name: Sarah Jane Andrew
Christening Date: 02 Jun 1848
Christening Place: Wesleyan, Penzance, Cornwall, England
Father's Name: Luke Andrew
Mother's Name: Diana
Luke Andrew, "England Marriages, 1538–1973"
Name: Luke Andrew
Birth Date: 1821 Age: 26
Spouse's Name: Diana Matthews
Spouse's Birth Date: 1816 Spouse's Age: 31
Event Date: 16 May 1847
Event Place: Madron Or Penzance, Cornwall, England
Father's Name: Luke Andrew
Spouse's Father's Name: James Matthews
Sorry to be a pain
&
Kind Regards
Gerry
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Details of that 1891 census (Reference I gave before)
Duck Street, Cawsand, Rame, Cornwall
Andrews, Mary Head Widow F 62 Nurse b Cawsand
Vanstone, John J Grandson M 24 Fisherman b Cawsand
Looking at FreeBMD, I can't see another marriage for a James Vanstone to a Sarah Jane?
And the marriage I found was in St Germans Registration District, which included the parish of Rame.
Sarah Jane in 1861, before the marriage:
Class: RG 9; Piece: 1522; Folio: 93; Page: 25
Duck Street, Cawsand, Rame, Cornwall
Nicholls, Elizabeth Wife Married 60 Wife of a Seaman R.N. b Cawsand
Andrews, Sarah Jane Granddaughter F 14 Scholar b Cawsand
Nicholls, Joseph Brother & Boarder M 52 Unmarried Greenwich Pensioner b Cawsand
Burgett, Henry Visitor M Widower M 35 Mariner b Portsmouth, Hants
1851 census: Class: HO107; Piece: 1900; Folio: 109;
Garrett Street, Cawsand
Andrews, James Head M 54 Farmer of 17 Acres b Newton Ferrers, Devon
Andrews, Sarah Wife F 55 b Newton Ferrers
Andrews, Mary A Daughter F 24 b Newton Ferrers
Andrews, Isaiah Son M 21 Merchants Clerk b Newton Ferrers
Andrews, John Son M Married 30 Ag Lab b Newton Ferrers
Andrews, Mary Daughter-in-Law F 23 b Cawsand
Andrews, Sarah Daughter-in-Law F 4 b Cawsand
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The Sarah Jane you found, with parents Luke and Diana, can be found here in 1851:
Class: HO107; Piece: 1918; Folio: 684; Page: 1
North Street, Madron, Cornwall
Andrew, Luke Head M 30 Grocer & Shoemaker (Master Employing 1 Man) b Penzance
Andrew, Diana Wife F 35 b St Levan
Andrew, Sarah Jane Daughter F 2 b Penzance
So not your Sarah Jane! ;D ;D
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Thanks KGarrard
That's why I need people like you to check my work
Cheers
Gerry
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No problem!! ;D
We all make mistakes :-[
I once followed the wrong man, believing him to be my grandfather, and his family, for a few years! ;D
Same forename and surname, born in Wiltshire - just not him!
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OK KGarrard
Lets see if I've got it right this time :-\
Muriel Vanstone 1901(3) Married Fredirick A Burls (1896) - My wife's grandparents
Daughter of
Frederick W Vanstone (1872) and Mary G Cock (1875)
Brother of
John James Vanstone (1867)
Parents of Frederick & John
James A Vanstone (1841) and Sarah J Andrews (1847)
Sarah's Parents
Mary Andrews (1829) and ??????
(Do you know Mary's maiden name?)
James A Vanstone Parents
???????????
How did I do and any more info you can add ???
Do you have any thing on the Burls side at all?
Cheers
Gerry :)
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Unfortunately, James is a common name with the Vanstone family!
Reckon you need his marriage certificate to find his father's name?!
Can't find much for Frederick Burls?
There's this possible birth?
September qtr 1897
Poplar district vol 1c, page 605
Burles, Frederick Alfred
Or a birth in Chelmsford in 1896?
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Hi KGarrad
Thanks for the info. I guess it's got to that staged when, as you say, I'm going to have to get certificates to move on.
Apart from James's parents is all the other information I posted correct as far as you know?
As for Burls I see you're having the same problems as I am,not an easy family to follow ???
Thanks again fro all your help and if you do come across any thing new please let me know
Kind Regards
Gerry :)
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The rest of your info is correct! ;D
I once did some analysis and found the following from 1841:
Mary occurs 76 times
John 57 times
William 43 times
Elizabeth 41 times
Ann 39 times.
James 35 times
Jane 31 times
That's from a total of 611 Vanstone, Vanston individuals.
Just 7 forenames account for over half of all Vanstones!
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Hi, Frederick Alfred Burls death aged 92 in 1989 records a birth date of 11.4.1896. Freebmb has a birth of JUNE 1896 Chelmsford 4a 524-Frederick Alfred Burls.
1901 census ref rg13 511 29 45
Frederick Burls-head 36 born think it says Stanstead-lab in goods yard
Phoebe Burls 35 Chelmsford
John Burls 8 " "
Alfred Burls 6 " "
Phoebe 2 Peckham.
1891 census rg12 1386 80 1
Frederick Burls 26 Painter Ensenham?
Phoebe Burls 26 Chelmsford
Nellie 2 "
Albert 3 "
( all in the household of the FAIERS Family)
Frederick H Burls (21)-Painter married Phoebe Faiers (23) mar q 1887 Billericay 4a 267 ( 5.2.1887 Father John Burls-corn merchant and John Faiers- Hair Dresser
Frederick HILLARY Burls died aged 64 Dec 1930 Portsmouth
Phoebe Burls died aged 77 June 1941 Portsmouth
Frederick H Burls birth ref Sept q 1866 Bishops Stortford 3a 210
If your earlier posting is correct and Frederick aka Alfred went to Australia when he was 13 then family will not appear on 1911 census as they would have travelled c 1908-10. There is a tree on An* that Having done the above confirms my findings. It does however record that Frederick married a Mary Donavan in 1911. Think this is wrong as he would have only been 15 and probably in Australia at the time.
John
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Hi John
Thanks for your reply I will read it properly later
Just one thing Frederick, known as Alf, moved to Gibralter not Australia when he was 13 so not sure if we're following the right person.
Will check the other details and if I may I'll get back to you
Kind Regards
Gerry
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Hi, meant Gibraltar not Australia, and 99% it's the right Frederick.
John
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Hi John
Thanks for clearing that up for me and for the information
Cheers
Gerry
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Gerry,
Have you looked at this website?
http://cab.gi/start/index.php/births-deaths-marriages-a-military-records
There's an email address, as well as addresses of the churches and telephone & fax numbers.
Might be worth an email?
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Thanks KGarrad
I'll send them an Email
Cheers
Gerry
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Frederick Hillary Burls my great great grandfather. Frederick Alfred Burls my late father's Uncle Alf. We have lots of info on the Burls connection plus lots of photos from Gib (they lived at Peppertree Cottage which was attached to His Majesty's Victualling Yard at Rosia Bay), quite a few phots of Alf, and some Vanstone photos. My nephew Tom is the family history expert for dates etc. Have only just registered to contact you and have to rush off now, but contact me. Regards, Mike.
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Hi Mike
Thank you for repling to my Post. The Burls / Vanstone family are on my wife's side of the family and any information you have on them and are will to share would be most greatfully received.
Kind Regards
Gerry & Heather
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Hi Gerry and Heather. Just to establish my bona fides(!) here's a photo from my late father's collection captioned 'Burls Vanstone Jan 27 1926'. At back left is Frederick Alfred Burls (Uncle Alf) your wife's grandfather. At back right is his younger brother (born in Gib), William Alexander (Alec) Burls - my grandfather. 2nd from right, I believe, is Frederick Hillary Burls(known as 'Dada' by his grandchildren), their father, our great grandfather. On the front row 2nd left is Muriel(Auntie Muriel) your wife's grandmother. 3rd from right is Phoebe Burls (known as 'Ubba', supposedly from grandchildren's attempts to say 'abuela', Spanish for grandmother), our great grandmother. I've always assumed the other unknowns in this picture to be Vanstones - certainly the woman front row right HAS to be Muriel's sister! I appear to be unable to send personal messages on this forum (it'll be a steep learning curve for me) so I'm happy to take advice from you on how best to communicate/share photos etc. I've sent my nephew Tom the link to this thread, as he is far better able to supply dates for births, marriages and darts(thank you Monty Python). Regards, Mike.
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Mike, Send another post (anything! OK or Hello will do!!) and the PM system will magically open to you!
The rule is there to thwart spammers - those who register; make 1 post; and then start sending spam to all and sundry!
As you can see by my tag lines, I am also related to Vanstone's (my great-great-grandmother).
Mine are from Bath latterly, briefly in Jersey before that, otherwise from North Devon (West Putford and Buckland Filleigh).
As I suggested before - take a look at The Vanstone Web - www.vanstoneweb.co.uk ;D
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Mike
What can I say but WoW and Thank you for the photo.
I will PM you my wife's and my personall Emails so we can talk more freely away from this post
Regards
Gerry