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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Topic started by: fbrg on Sunday 29 September 13 17:46 BST (UK)
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Hi all! This is my first post here, so I'd like to apologize in advance if I make any mistakes.
After a good deal of searching, I think I have located my grandfather and his sister in the Civil Registration Birth indexes for Northern Ireland on Family Search. Below is the relevant information from the entries. The dates in these entries match the ages which are recorded in the U.S. Census after they moved to the U.S., and I have a vague recollection from family lore that they were Orange Protestants from Northern Ireland, so I'm pretty confident I have the right people. There was also a (possibly older) brother named Mike Arthurs, who I haven't been able to find the least trace of beyond an entry on Find A Grave for his death in the 1903 coal mine disaster in Hanah Wyoming. Don't know what happened to his birth information, or what "Mike" might have been a nickname for.
Now I'd like to order the birth certificates for John and Lizzie Arthurs so I can find out who their parents were. Also, I'll need those documents for when I attempt to claim Irish citizenship. And I'm having some trouble figuring out how to go about it. It looks like I should apply to GRONI for the certificates, however they appear to require information such as the names of the parents and their addresses, both of which I have no idea about and had hoped to obtain from the certificates I wish to order. Also, it is my understanding that the volume and page number of the Birth Index entry can somehow be used to easily find the certificate, however I see no way to provide that info to GRONI on their form, and am uncertain of which of the numbers is important and of the proper way to format that information.
Can anyone provide some guidance on how I should proceed?
Name: John Arthurs
Event Type: Birth
Event Date: Apr - Jun 1881
Event Place: Ballymena, Ireland
Registration Quarter and Year: Apr - Jun 1881
Registration District: Ballymena
Mother's Maiden Name: [Blank]
Volume Number: 1
Page Number: 113
GS Film number: 101058
Digital Folder Number: 004193459
Image Number: 00100
And:
Name: Lizzie Arthurs
Event Type: Birth
Event Date: Apr - Jun 1893
Event Place: Dungannon, Ireland
Registration Quarter and Year: Apr - Jun 1893
Registration District: Dungannon
Mother's Maiden Name: [Blank]
Volume Number: 1
Page Number: 579
GS Film number: 101064
Digital Folder Number: 004193978
Image Number: 00396
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I'm not 100% but think as these Certs are 1800s you can get them from Roscommon.
See http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=599538.0
I'm sure someone will correct me if you have to get them from Northern Ireland.
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Hi There,
Just a side note to try and help ..... 'Mike' is short for Michael !
Do you not have the marriage cert for your Grandfather John which would have his father's name and occupation on it ?
Where was John in 1901 ? Was he still in Northern Ireland ?
Tara
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Welcome to Rootschat, fbrg :)
The records you found are from the civil registration index and in 2 different registration districts so they may not be siblings. It's usually best to work back through records one step at a time to avoid following the wrong people/family.
There's this family in 1901 in Dungannon - the birth record for Lizzie is possibly the daughter Elizabeth and there are children John & Michael BUT John is born in Tyrone (not Antrim like the birth record you found), Michael is younger not older and the family are Catholic. See how easy it can be to get confused?
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Tyrone/Dungannon/Anne_Street/1739610
Same family in 1911- the three siblings still at home-
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Tyrone/Dungannon/Anne_Street/868856
Have you found Elizabeth, John and Michael on a passenger manifest arriving in America? there are usually 2 pages and one question asks the name and address of nearest relative in U.K. The form also states name and address of person they are going to which will help locate other records.
Can you give us the names, birthdates/years for the siblings as well as the arrival details if known? or where they ended up at least so that we can try to find the correct family for you.
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Hi There,
Just a side note to try and help ..... 'Mike' is short for Michael !
Do you not have the marriage cert for your Grandfather John which would have his father's name and occupation on it ?
Where was John in 1901 ? Was he still in Northern Ireland ?
Tara
No, no marriage certificate for John. In fact I was just about to post over in the U.S. forum asking for advice on finding one. I know he was married to Maude (possible maiden name Maude Watkins) in the 1910 Census (link) (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/MPJV-LY9) for Carbon Wyoming, and since he had a two year old daughter at that time (my mother) he must have been married for at least two years. I have no real idea when or where they may have married, and my searches have turned up nothing. There's was also a nine year old daughter on that census, but I'm pretty sure she was Maude's daughter by a previous marriage, which is why the Watkins maiden name is iffy.
You may also notice that he claimed to be born in Wyoming in the 1910 Census, however family lore says otherwise, and John (always later called Jack) put down Ireland as his birthplace in the 1920 Census (link) (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/M83B-5FL).
I have no idea when John/Jack, Mike and their sister Lizzie came to the U.S, beyond that it had to be after Lizzie's birth in 1893, and before Mike's death in 1903.
I've tried all variants of of Michael I can come up with in searching for "Mike," and am inclining to the opinion that "Mike" might be a distortion of the derogatory Mick, meaning that I don't really know his first name.
I'm not 100% but think as these Certs are 1800s you can get them from Roscommon.
See http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=599538.0
I'm sure someone will correct me if you have to get them from Northern Ireland.
Roscommon looks like it wants the same information on parents and birth address as GRONI. Any idea how I get around this?
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Welcome to Rootschat, fbrg :)
The records you found are from the civil registration index and in 2 different registration districts so they may not be siblings. It's usually best to work back through records one step at a time to avoid following the wrong people/family.
There's this family in 1901 in Dungannon - the birth record for Lizzie is possibly the daughter Elizabeth and there are children John & Michael BUT John is born in Tyrone (not Antrim like the birth record you found), Michael is younger not older and the family are Catholic. See how easy it can be to get confused?
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Tyrone/Dungannon/Anne_Street/1739610
Same family in 1911- the three siblings still at home-
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Tyrone/Dungannon/Anne_Street/868856
Have you found Elizabeth, John and Michael on a passenger manifest arriving in America? there are usually 2 pages and one question asks the name and address of nearest relative in U.K. The form also states name and address of person they are going to which will help locate other records.
Can you give us the names, birthdates/years for the siblings as well as the arrival details if known? or where they ended up at least so that we can try to find the correct family for you.
Unfortunately that can't be the right family, as the birth dates don't match any of the later U.S. Census entries (of which there are several), nor can my grandfather still be in Ireland after 1903. I know that the births I found are in different districts, however Dungannon is only 50 km from Ballymena, which it seems to me is possible for the movement of the family in the 12 years separating the births.
I have been unable to find any passenger manifests for the family.
I have no information on Mike (perhaps not even his first name), but the information on the 1910 Census (link) (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/MPJV-LY9) is accurate for dates as far as I know for John/Jack and Lizzie.
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Hi
I'm afraid to say that you are going about your tree incorrectly.
You will need to go by facts as opposed to family lore.
You need your Mum's birth cert first to get her Mother's CORRECT maiden name.
You will the need to get your Grandparents marriage cert.
ONLY THEN can you even start to look for your Grandfather in Ireland.
Tara
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I know exactly where Ballymena and Dungannon are but it's highly unlikely that the 1893 birth is for your Elizabeth Arthurs.
Will do a bit of digging in U.S. records with the details you've posted and see if I can find something on their Irish origins.
The GRO, Roscommon form is really designed for people requesting their own certificate but you can order a cheeper research certificate with just the name, year/quarter, registration district, volume and page numbers. However, you aren't really ready to order anything yet.
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Roscommon looks like it wants the same information on parents and birth address as GRONI. Any idea how I get around this?
It's explained in the first post of the link I posted.
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Mike Arthurs killed in mine accident 1903 Wyoming-
http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~wymining/explosion.html
Details from Find A Grave (http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSln=arthurs&GSfn=mike&GSbyrel=all&GSdyrel=all&GSob=n&GRid=13623096&df=all&) entry
Have you looked into obtaining any of the research mentioned (family recollections, etc.)?
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WWI draft registration gives John Arthur born 4 June 1882. One online family tree gives wife as Cora Maude.
1930 Census shows Jack Arthurs born Wyoming (again) and parents born Ireland (not Northern Ireland).
Added- obituary for Jack's daughter Lillian-
http://www.kialoa2.com/memoriam/memoriam03.htm
This story says Jack possibly born Wyoming OR Ireland-
http://www.kialoa2.com/memoriam/memoriam01.htm
You are definately not ready to do any Irish research yet.
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Have you tried contacting them to see if any newspaper accounts list Mike's age?
http://www.hannabasinmuseum.com/
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Hi
I'm afraid to say that you are going about your tree incorrectly.
You will need to go by facts as opposed to family lore.
You need your Mum's birth cert first to get her Mother's CORRECT maiden name.
You will the need to get your Grandparents marriage cert.
ONLY THEN can you even start to look for your Grandfather in Ireland.
Tara
Thanks for your reply. Any advice on locating marriage certificates would be appreciated. They seem to be very hard to find. I have no idea exactly where or when Maude and Jack got married. Interestingly, I know that after Maude and Jack moved to California, they were divorced at some point, and when Maude died (link) (http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSfn=maud&GSiman=1&GScid=202924&GRid=46697126&) in 1939, she had remarried and was Maude Bassett. I don't know Mr. Bassett's first name, although I have seen a family photo of them together, and am unsure of the dates of either divorce or marriage. And, despite much searching I have been unable to find any records regarding them, which seems odd, and makes me doubly unsure of being able to find any record of Jack and Maude's marriage.
I know exactly where Ballymena and Dungannon are but it's highly unlikely that the 1893 birth is for your Elizabeth Arthurs.
Will do a bit of digging in U.S. records with the details you've posted and see if I can find something on their Irish origins.
The GRO, Roscommon form is really designed for people requesting their own certificate but you can order a cheeper research certificate with just the name, year/quarter, registration district, volume and page numbers. However, you aren't really ready to order anything yet.
Thank you very much. Additional things I have found in U.S. records are: The 1930 Census (link) (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XCNY-MFD) for Jack and Maude Arthurs, where my mother and her half sister were during the 1920 Census (link) (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/M83B-5FR), Maude's entry on Find a Grave (link) (http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSfn=maud&GSiman=1&GScid=202924&GRid=46697126&) (I have been completely unable to find any other death information on her, although I know she died at the Woodland Memorial Hospital in California), and a possible death entry for Jack Arthurs in 1939(link) (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/VHCX-BJ6). I understand that he froze to death while traveling back to Montana to a job after he broke up with Maude.
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Have you tried contacting them to see if any newspaper accounts list Mike's age?
http://www.hannabasinmuseum.com/
Mike Arthurs killed in mine accident 1903 Wyoming-
http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~wymining/explosion.html
Details from Find A Grave (http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSln=arthurs&GSfn=mike&GSbyrel=all&GSdyrel=all&GSob=n&GRid=13623096&df=all&) entry
Have you looked into obtaining any of the research mentioned (family recollections, etc.)?
No I haven't tried that. Those are excellent ideas. Thank you.
WWI draft registration gives John Arthur born 4 June 1882. One online family tree gives wife as Cora Maude.
1930 Census shows Jack Arthurs born Wyoming (again) and parents born Ireland (not Northern Ireland).
Added- obituary for Jack's daughter Lillian-
http://www.kialoa2.com/memoriam/memoriam03.htm
This story says Jack possibly born Wyoming OR Ireland-
http://www.kialoa2.com/memoriam/memoriam01.htm
You are definately not ready to do any Irish research yet.
I am aware of all of those, except the WWI draft registration and the Cora Maude. The Cora Maude sounds different (Maude is the first name, not the last). Where did you find the draft registration?
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The 1939 Montana death is unfortunate if it is Jack as the informant is unlikely to have known his exact place and date of birth, parents' names, etc.
Should clarify "Cora Maude" the name on the tree is Cora Maude Watkins. You can view 2 family trees (one with wife Cora and other with Cora Maude) on Mundia or Ancestry.
WWI draft registration card for John Arthurs (meant to include the link earlier)- click '.' to see both sides of card- box for native born is ticked which again indicates he wasn't born in Ireland.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/K8QJ-4M5
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What do you know about Elizabeth? we might have more luck traacking records for her down.
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What do you know about Elizabeth? we might have more luck traacking records for her down.
Very, very little. She may have come to California with them, but if so I have been unable to find anything. I vaguely recall an "Aunt Lizzie," who might have married a man who worked around the farm who's name was pronounced "Saeger." He died when I was a boy, and I recall a conversation about how he was going to be buried "by the county at Napa (California)," as he had little money.
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Interesting from the Hanna Basin Museum burial records page for the Hanna Cemetery:
Arthurs, Jack
Monument: "1882-1937; Born in Ireland"
Plot: 1
Age: 55
Note 1: USC and CCA, Jack married Maude Watkins. Maude was born in Carbon. They had one child Lillian Arthurs born Feb. 29, 1908 in Hanna, Carbon, Wyoming died March 29, 2003 in Dixion Wyoming.
That must have been the monument my mother erected to Jack, which I remember hearing about.
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Wyoming Newspapers Online - John Arthurs and Maude Watkins of Hanna were married on April 7th 1905 - The Rawlins Republican, No 28, April 8th 1905.
Also a marriage for a Cora Maude Watkins of Medicine Bow and Charles Coulter in Sept. 1896 - The Rawlins Republican, No 41, Sept 25th 1896. - http://www.wyonewspapers.org/
Noel
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Wyoming Newspapers Online - John Arthurs and Maude Watkins of Hanna were married on April 7th 1905 - The Rawlins Republican, No 28, April 8th 1905.
Also a marriage for a Cora Maude Watkins of Medicine Bow and Charles Coulter in Sept. 1896 - The Rawlins Republican, No 41, Sept 25th 1896. - http://www.wyonewspapers.org/
Noel
That's excellent! Thank you very much.
I was looking over the Hanna Museum page more. On http://www.hannabasinmuseum.com/hanna-plots-1---50.html page they have a fact sheet for the Arthurs family, where they seem to think that Mike Arthurs was the father born January 1840 in Ireland, Jack Arthurs was his son, also born in Ireland and died in 1932, and that there were a whole bunch of other siblings, one of whom died in France in WWI. I wonder if they aren't getting confused with another family of Arthurs living in that area which I saw on Familysearch.
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The details on Hanna Basin site are interesting but not really facts- family group sheet lists him born in Ireland but WWI draft card says native born.
If Michael was the father and not the brother of John & Elizabeth then I might have come across the family- I discounted it since you did say Michael was an older brother.
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If Michael was the father and not the brother of John & Elizabeth then I might have come across the family- I discounted it since you did say Michael was an older brother.
That's my understanding, right or wrong.
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Found that family (link) (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/M3V5-5ZW) on Familysearch. Besides the bunch of siblings which I have never heard of in my family, they are all Arthur, not Arthurs, and the John Arthur from that family is listed as born in England. They do have the correct birth years for their John and Elizabeth, though.
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It's not uncommon to find Arthur/Arthurs used for the same family in Ireland.
England makes sense since that's where they were in 1881- including Michael's mother Esther! Michael was iron ore miner which explains how he ended up as a miner in Wyoming. Two children born in Cleator- Mary J & James.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XQS1-7WQ
Am off to track down their marriage.
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It's not uncommon to find Arthur/Arthurs used for the same family in Ireland.
England makes sense since that's where they were in 1881- including Michael's mother Esther! Michael was iron ore miner which explains how he ended up as a miner in Wyoming. Two children born in Cleator- Mary J & James.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XQS1-7WQ
Am off to track down their marriage.
Thank you very much for your continuing help.
There are a few discrepancies between those families -- in the 1881 English Census Michael Arthurs is listed as being born in 1846 while in the 1900 U.S. Census the birth year is 1840. The wife Mary has and son James have smaller discrepancies of one year each. And the daughter Mary disappears between -- although I suppose that's not hard to account for. I wonder if it's the same family.
I found the draft card (link) (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/K68W-4YD) for Peter Arthur(s) from the 1900 Census family. He signs it "Arthurs."
I certainly don't remember any English connection being mentioned on that side of the family, nor all those siblings.
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Ages can vary tremendously from one record to the next- the important matches are Michael Arthurs born Ireland with wife Mary and son James born England. Daughter Mary could have died in England or come with the family to America- remember 1900 census says Michael & Mary had 12 children but only 6 living.
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fbrg- please contact me. I have information regarding John Arthurs.
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Welcome to RootsChat :)
fbrg- please contact me. I have information regarding John Arthurs.
fbrg was on-line early this morning, so maybe he/she has or will make contact with you, either by posting or sending a PM. To be sure of receiving a PM you need to make one more post.
KG