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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Essex => Topic started by: helvissa on Wednesday 02 October 13 17:00 BST (UK)
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Hello all,
I'm researching my Wade ancestors. I'm as far back as Edward Wade (abt 1742 - 1808, died in Fingringhoe) and his wife Elizabeth Cardinal (b abt 1742 - 1803, died in Fingringhoe).
I'm descended from their son, Edward Wade (b abt 1769 Layer-de-la-Haye, died 1837 Fingringhoe), and his wife Sarah Pritchett (b abt 1771, died 1826 Fingringhoe).
There's patterns of naming in this family, so that children are often given the middle name of Cardinal or Pritchett. This goes on for generations. But as well as those two names, there's a third middle name which keeps popping up - Whittaker.
The first Whittaker in the Wade family is Sarah Whittaker Wade (abt 1773 Layer, died 1844, possibly Colchester), daughter of the first Edward and his wife Elizabeth. She gives the Whittaker middle name to one her children.
Edward (born abt 1769) gives the middle name to his son Charles Whittaker Wade (1796-1864).
There are at least 7 other people in my tree, descended from that first marriage between Edward Wade & Elizabeth Cardinal who have the middle name Whittaker.
Now, the thing is, I can't find the name appearing as a surname anywhere in that area. I'm transcribing Fingringhoe for FreeREG and there's just no Whittaker surnames there! I'm hampered in this somewhat as ERO's baptisms for Layer-de-la-Haye don't start until the 1760s, so if Edward Wade 1st and his wife were born in Layer and had a mother with the maiden name Whittaker, that would presumably be the connection.
But.... other families in Fingringhoe use Whittaker as a middle name - the Cooper and Pertwee families for starters. What I'm wondering is:
1. are the Wades, Coopers and Pertwees related somehow and have a common Whittaker ancestor?
2. was there a Whittaker family who were quite prominent and the Wades, Coopers & Pertwees were naming their children after this family? But if so, why did the middle name keep repeating even once no Whittaker families were in the area?
3. A mixture of the above? I think I found a Cooper/Whittaker marriage in Layer at some point, so perhaps they were using Whittaker as a middle name after that, and the Wades used it in honour of that family? (seeing as it's not unknown for people to name their children after Horatio Nelson or the local surgeon!).
So what I really want to know is, does anyone who knows the people in this area know of the Whittaker family?
Or is it just the case that, when I tried to explain this to my boyfriend, his response was "Whittaker? That's a cool middle name!" I'm not sure if an 18th century wheelwright would have called it "cool" but...!
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Have you tried Berechurch and Layer Bretton PRs?
I ask as google led me to a 1934 publication on the history of Layer de la Haye and in the 1700's all 3 parishes shared 1 vicar. The book also references people who died in LDLH being buried in Berechurch.
Mark
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Hello,
Yes, I think I must've found the same thing as you about Berechurch and Layer Breton - had a look, and... nothing. :-/
I'm being dense actually... the Whittaker marriage was in Fingringhoe:
28 Sep 1762, John Tiffin, sm of Layer de la Haye, & Sarah Whittaker, sw. By licence. Witnesses: Thos junr & Mary Cooper. (perhaps I should send off for a copy of the marriage licence allegation...).
But, from the mid 1600s when the Fingringhoe registers are available, to the 1850s (which is how far I've got transcribing them), there aren't any baptisms of anyone with the surname Whittaker in Fingringhoe.
Also, when the abovementioned Sarah Whittaker Wade got married in 1798 to John Lingwood, one of the witnesses was John W Cooper - and I'm fairly sure he's John Whittaker Cooper, who turns up elsewhere. He was baptized in Fingringhoe in 1760, son of Thomas & Mary Cooper. It makes him the contemporary of Sarah Whittaker Wade. It does make me wonder if the Coopers and Wades are cousins with the connection being a Whittaker somewhere. It could be that the witnesses of the 1762 Tiffin marriage are the same Thos & Mary Cooper who are John Whittaker Cooper's parents - perhaps making Mary Cooper the sister of Sarah? (But I can't see a candidate for Thos & Mary Cooper's marriage on Findmypast or Freereg yet, or in the LDLH register on Seax... their first child was born in about 1757).
Oh, if only the Layer de la Haye early registers were available!!!
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Interesting... John W Cooper pops up again in 1821, when he witnesses the marriage of Sarah Whittaker Lingwood in Colchester (she was a daughter of John Lingwood and Sarah Whittaker Wade). Same John or his son? Is he just fond of witnessing the marriages of people who share his middle name?!
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I found out something else....
When Edward 2 (1769-1837) and Sarah Pritchett (1771-1826) marry in 1791, one of their witnesses is Mary Waynman.
I'd started researching the Cooper and Whittaker families and found a Thomas Waynman (1755-1796), whose mother was Sarah Cooper (1717-?). Sarah Cooper's brother, Thomas (1723-1782), married Mary Whittaker (1733-1769), and their son was John Whittaker Cooper.
Thomas marries Mary Marsden in Colchester in 1782 - so it's entirely possible that this is the Mary Waynman who witnesses Edward & Sarah Wade's 1791 marriage. Especially as the handwriting is VERY similar. So in other words, the wife of John Whittaker Cooper's cousin witnesses my ancestors' marriage. Then after Thomas dies in 1769, Mary Marsden marries Thomas Nice in 1797 - and a Sarah Wade is the witness. There's a blob between Sarah and Wade which could be a W. Again - comparing the writing, it could be Sarah née Pritchett who is witnessing.
So... another connection, possibly.
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There is also a connection with the parish of Polstead.
From at least 1776, the first Wade family (Edward Wade (abt 1742 - 1808, died in Fingringhoe) and his wife Elizabeth Cardinal (b abt 1742 - 1803, died in Fingringhoe)) were living in Polstead - we can see this from the baptisms of Thomas (1776) and Samuel (1778). In 1782, my ancestor Edward Wade (son of Edward & Elizabeth) was apprenticed as a carpenter to someone in Stoke, Suffolk - this parish is right next door to Polstead. This presence in Suffolk further explains why Edward 2 ended up married to Sarah Pritchett (in 1791), who was resident in St James, Bury St. Ed's.
John Whittaker Cooper's father, Thomas Cooper, was born in Polstead in abt 1723. When he married Mary Whittaker in Ramsey in 1755, his abode was Polstead. Quite soon after their marriage, they were in Fingringhoe (their first child was baptised there in 1757). In fact, John Whittaker's grandfather, (another Thomas Cooper) lived in Fingringhoe in the 1730s, but was back in Polstead in by 1767 when he wrote his will.
What I can't decide at the moment is if the Wade family is related to the Whittaker family or if the Wade family were employed by them in some way. Edward Wade 1 is a labourer when he marries (according to the licence), and he and his wife mark. They weren't the same rank as the Coopers, who were farmers who owned land. Before moving to Polstead, they were living in Layer-de-la-Haye, next door to Fingringhoe, so could've known the Cooper/Whittaker lot that way. By 1773 the connection existed because this is the baptism of their daugher Sarah Whittaker Wade. I haven't been able to find out very much about the Whittakers.
I'm now wondering though if the Pritchett family knew the Coopers, through Sarah and Mary witnessing each other's marriages.
Another connection - which could be a coincidence, but there's so many overlapping connections going on here, so who knows - Mary Marsden/Waynman/Nice's brother, John Marsden, lives next door to Charles Stone in Colchester on the 1851 census. Charles Stone is the son of Thomas Lewis Stone & Elizabeth (née Wade). Elizabeth, born in 1771 in Fingringhoe, is the daughter of Edward Wade 1 and his wife Elizabeth!
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You've probably already found this but Thomas Cooper husband of Mary Whitaker is the son of Thomas and Margaret Cooper. I don't know as yet what Margaret's maiden name was as don't have their marriage. Thomas senior I'm pretty sure is the son of another Thomas Cooper and his first wife Elizabeth Mash. He married again in 1728 to a widow Sarah Clarke and died in 1742 leaving an Archdeaconry of Sudbury Will, mentioning his son Thomas, son Edward and daughter Elizabeth Chrisp. Interestingly though that Thomas was illiterate and doesn't leave a great amount in his Will, most is left to his son Edward who was the younger of his sons. If Thomas gentleman of Polstead who died in 1771 is his son then he would appear to have made his own money or possibly married into it. Other members of the wider Cooper family were financially better off.
There are a lot of Thomas Coopers in the Polstead/Boxford area, I've been struggling to sort them out for years once I get to the 1700s. My last direct Cooper ancestor was the sister of Thomas Cooper husband of Elizabeth Mash, her husband was one of the executors of his Will and the bondsman apparently for his second marriage in 1728. I found a reference to this marriage via google as the document is apparently now at Keele University. I'm pretty sure Thomas senior is the son of Thomas and Elizabeth because of the name Judith. That Thomas also had a daughter Judith and a sister Judith, his paternal grandmother was Judith Crowe from Colchester.
It may well be that Margaret first wife of Thomas Cooper of Polstead may be the connection but the marriage needs to be found.
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Hello! It's nice to hear from a relative of the Coopers!
Yes, I've got Thomas Cooper, born about 1723 in Polstead, son of Thomas & Margaret. But apparently no marriage for Thomas & Margaret in Polstead.
I saw the 1728 marriage in the marriage licence allegation book on archive.org and thought that Margaret had died and it was Thomas (d. 1771) who had remarried, but that would make sense then if it's actually his father, because in 1729 you have the baptism in Fingringhoe of Judith, daughter of Thomas & Margaret - so Margaret was still about.
Could Margaret be the Margaret Cooper buried in Polsted, 13 Oct 1759? From the poll books, Thomas is in Polstead in 1763 (appearing in the poll books for Fingringhoe in 1734). Equally, it could be his daughter, Margaret.... (I think she popped up in a will and I don't have a marriage for her yet).
That's a very good point that Margaret could be the connection with the Wades... hmmm....
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It's always possible Thomas and Margaret married in Essex, the Polstead/Boxford family did have quite a few connections with the county. I've been through quite a few of the parishes near Polstead and don't appear to have a marriage for them, unless I missed it which is always possible ;D
As for the 1759 burial of a Margaret Cooper in Polstead, it could be Thomas' wife. There are also two other possibilities, one in 1743 and another in 1753, although the latter was from Stoke, so should could be any of them. There is also a Joseph and Margaret Cooper in Polstead from the 1710s onwards, but I think she will be the the widow buried in 1765 as her husband appears to have been buried in 1758. Margaret Cooper the daughter is indeed mentioned in her father's Will written in 1767 so she's not going to be any of the burials prior to that date.
I wonder if Thomas and Margaret were back in Polstead by 1749 because of Judith's marriage in Boxford that year and Ann marrying John Holbrow the same year in Wissington. If they'd been still living in Fingringhoe, I would have thought it more likely that they would have married there.
I'm not sure why I did read your post because I was unaware of the Cooper connection with Fingringhoe, but I'm glad I did since it's at least helped me sort out some of the numerous Thomas Coopers in the Polstead area. ;D ;D I'm now pretty sure that Thomas senior was the son of Thomas and Elizabeth Mash because Judith Woodruffe daughter of Judith Cooper married William Woodthorpe, whose father's sister was married to Thomas Rudland of Harwich. Thomas' nephew married one of Ann Cooper's (sister of Thomas who married Elizabeth Mash) granddaughters, which tends to support further my theory because the families obviously all knew each other. Ann Cooper's son was from Boxford but married a Harwich lass around the time that Thomas and Margaret were in Fingringhoe, which is probably how they met too. ;)
Hopefully, you'll find the answer to the use of the Whitaker name as a middle name. I do wonder if it is the Whitaker family that is the connection.
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Oh I'm a wally, of course it can't be the daughter as she's in his will later on!!! ::)
Thomas & Margaret's marriage could indeed be somewhere in Essex... very true! And good point about them being back in Boxford by 1749.
Interesting about Thomas Rudland - there are a heck of a lot of Rudlands (Rudling/Rudlen/Rudlin) in Fingringhoe, so I don't know if that's a connection as well? (although it's not a particularly rare north-east Essex name).
I am no nearer to knowing anything more about the one Whittaker marriage in Fingringhoe, though:
28 Sep 1762
John Tiffin, sm of Layer de la Haye
Sarah Whittaker, sw. By licence. Witnesses: Thos Cooper junr & Mary Cooper.
Bearing in mind that the witnesses are probably Thomas (1723-1782) and his wife, née Whittaker, it's likely that Sarah Whittaker was Mary's sister, and as she is resident in Fingringhoe, then perhaps she moved from Ramsey to live with the Coopers (and thence, presumably, to Layer-de-la-Haye).
I sent off for the marriage licence allegation and John Tiffin was 30 years old, a farmer, and Sarah was "21 years and upwards" (which tends to mean she was 21!). As this marriage gives us a connection to Layer-de-la-Haye, where my Wade/Cardinal ancestors first appear, perhaps this marriage is the link? That perhaps Edward Wade 1 worked for Tiffin, then found work with the Coopers in Polstead (hence the move) because of the link from John Tiffin through the Whittaker sisters (if such they be) to Thomas Cooper. The Coopers being in Fingringhoe may even be the link which explains why the Wades moved back to Essex from Suffolk.
The thing is that SO MANY people are related to the Wades. It's an astonishing thing - there's a website called The Webrarian (http://www.webrarian.co.uk/individual.php?pid=I12177&ged=goddard) - you can follow all (for a few generations) of Edward & Elizabeth's descendants and when I looked at this I was amazed to find how many people in Wivenhoe (where I'm from) that I'm related to. I'm related to my former Guide leader, someone I sang with in the church choir, and a chap called Robert Lewis Barrell (who was friends with my grandad and who my grandma's brother worked for - my grandad hated it when people said he and Robert were related because they were both Barrells, but in fact my grandad and Robert *were* related because they're both descendants of Edward & Elizabeth Wade!). In fact, it turns out that my aforementioned grandma's brother was married to a descendant of the Wades as well! And it's rather astonishing if you think that this has all come about because at someone point, ag lab Edward Wade left Layer, moved to Polstead for a bit, then turned up in Fingringhoe. If he'd gone anywhere else with his family, then I wouldn't be here now, but nor would hundreds of other people. I know that's basically the whole of human history, everything coming down to chance, but it's astonishing to me when I can see it on this scale - from those two people getting married and moving here and there, probably with the help of the Coopers and Tiffins!
And (if I don't sound like I've gone completely mad), I think it's rather fun that your relatives, 250 years ago, hung out with mine, and now here *we* are helping each other. Ahhh, history, ain't it grand?
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But why did they use the middle name Whittaker? Why not Cooper? There aren't any Wades with the middle name of Cooper.
Incidentally - bearing in mind Thomas Cooper of Polstead married Mary Whittaker in Ramsey in 1755, I had a look for Whittakers there. Obviously we have random spellings to contend with (which makes searching for wills online rather a challenge) and we do have a couple of entries for Whitacres in Ramsey - I've made a note of this at home (not currently to hand), but it's around the time of Mary's marriage that (I think) Ann, wife of Whitacre, is buried. But I went back to when Mary and Sarah would've baptised (if baptised not long after birth) and couldn't find any. So they came from somewhere else... but where?
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Oh, and on 21st June 1763, Charles Tiffin, single man of Layer-de-la-Haye, farmer, married Mary Rayner, single woman, in Fingringhoe. Witnesses: Thos Cooper and John Hollis.
As you've seen the will of Thomas Cooper (d. 1771), you'll know who I think this might be! I think this could be his granddaughter (and also of course note that there's a Thomas Cooper witnessing her marriage). (although isn't she still Mary Rayner in that will, rather than someone's wife? Hmmm....)
Edited to add:
I'm just looking at the 1803 will of Charles Tiffin of Colchester, miller. His wife was called Rebecca (I wonder if he is the son of Charles & Mary?) and he mentions his two friends: John Whittaker Cooper of Fingringhoe & Thomas Cooper of Langenhoe..... (the sons of Thomas Cooper & Mary Whittaker). Then again, he mentions two granchildren with the surname Mansfield, so perhaps it's the first Charles Tiffin, and his wife, Mary, died, so he married Rebecca?
I'm having a quick look through Layer de la Haye and Peldon baptisms - no tiffins yet in LDLH but there's a Charles and Sarah Tiffin having children in Peldon in the late 1790s. There's a Charles son of Mary further back.
Quick look in the papers and I've got something in the Ipswich Journal printed by The Colchester Association Against Horse-Stealers, with subscribers' names and residence - we have a Charles Tiffin in LDLH.
Poll book Tiffins:
1734: Jonathan Tiffin of Layer Breton/LDLH/L Marney - freehold in Earls Colne
1763: Charles Tiffen of LDLH, freehold in LDLH.
1764: Wm Tiffin of Abberton, freehold in same place (Abberton being next to Fingringhoe)
1774: Charles Tiffin of LDLH, freehold in LDLH
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Yes I'd noticed that Charles Tiffin/Mary Rayner marriage earlier on Friday but thought the same thing regarding Thomas Cooper's Will. However in light of the witness you would think it was Sarah Cooper's daughter.
There are a few entries in LDLH as I found them earlier:
Mary Tiffin dau of Charles and Mary baptised 20 March 1767
John Tiffin son of Charles and Mary buried 27 Jun 1768
Also
Mary Tiffin buried 13 May 1773 - no other details.
I did wonder if Charles had gone into Colchester, obviously his wife's half brother Thomas Waynman was in there.
I hadn't picked up Charles Tiffin's Will until you mentioned it.
These would appear to probably be the two grandchildren mentioned:
Stockwell Independent Chapel, Colchester
19 April 1790 Mary Ann dau of James and Mary Mansfield of St James baptised
23 Jun 1796 James son of James and Mary Mansfield of St James baptised, born 22 Aug 1791
In light of the daughter baptised in LDLH, does seem possible that Mary Mansfield could be the Mary Tiffin baptised in 1767. I can't see a marriage on the IGI or Boyds or Freereg.
There is a Mary Mansfield burial 22 Jul 1798 at Colchester St Giles, no other details, but that would appear to be the parish that Charles Tiffin was buried in on 16 Jun 1802. I can't see James Mansfield junior on the census anywhere and there are several James Mansfield of an age that could be father but nothing obvious.
On another note, were you aware there was a James (I think from memory) Wade who who was in Polstead in the late 1700s at the same time your Edward was? He was either the parish clerk or rector, I forget which and didn't write it down, but his name appears on the banns entries as he wrote them up.
I think it's definately likely your link to the other families is through the Whitakers, possibly they had no surviving sons which is why the name was used for daughter's children.
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Doesn't say which parish, but in the Ipswich Journal dated 31 Oct 1789:
Colchester Oct 30
[Thursday 29 Oct] Mr Mansfield jun, baymaker, was married to Miss Tiffin, both of this place
This would tend to confirm that Mary Rayner must have died in 1773 and Charles remarried, but where I don't know, and that Mary Mansfield nee Tiffin died before her father or she would have got a mention. What happened to the two children remains to be seen.
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Hello!
I am, again, being daft, because I'd decided to transcribe the LDLH register for FreeREG, and started it yesterday, and the very first entry in the register is Mary, daughter of Charles & Mary Tiffin. Why that didn't go *ping* in my head, even though it's actually written in my transcribing notebook, I don't know. But there we have it, some Tiffins!
And some more Tiffins, in fact, because I went back to Edward & Elizabeth's 1767 marriage (14th January - son William baptised in June), and guess who one of the witnesses is? Charles Tiffin!
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v163/helvissa/wadecardinalmarriage1767_zps3fa77352.png)
But who's the other witness? Is he a Wade too? I wish that surname was easier to read....
Then various Tiffins and Wades popping up in the marriage register:
John Tiffin witnesses a marriage 1769. There's also a marriage in LDLH on 24 Dec 1755 for Joseph Yell and Sary Wade, a widow - wouldn't be surprised if she's Edward's mother. Joseph is a single man, so when we see the 1810 will of Joseph Yell senior of LDLH, dare we assume that Joseph Yell jnr is his son, and therefore possibly Edward's half-brother? (or perhaps that Joseph Yell senr is the son of Joseph & Sary?). I think I might investigate the Yells a little closer.
There's a Grace Wade in 1775 marrying Robert Hows with Susannah Yell as a witness. 1782, John Wade marries Mary ? and Wm Yell is one of the witnesses. Mary Tiffin witnesses the 1783 marriage of William Wootton and Susannah Segers. 1785, John Wade widower marries Judith Mead, witnesses: James Burton & Grace Hows (poss his sister). Judith Wade witnesses the 1791 marriage of John Bartlett and Mary Wilken. 1810, Mary Tiffin witnesses the marriage Thomas Wolf & Sarah Whiting.
I didn't know about the James Wade in Polstead - I assume this is him mentioned here (from the Cosford database)
Sarah WADE was born in 1786 in Elmsett, Suffolk, England. She was baptised on 20 Dec 1786 in Elmsett, Suffolk, England. She was a Nurse in 1851 in kersey Tye, Kersey, Suffolk, England. She died before 6 Mar 1867 in Polstead, Suffolk, England. She was buried on 6 Mar 1867 in Kersey, Suffolk, England. Her age is entered on the burial record as 80. Parents: James WADE and Susan AYLWORTH.
She was married to William FROST on 6 May 1807 in Whatfield, Suffolk, England. Children were: Maria FROST, Maria FROST, Sarah FROST, Hannah FROST, James FROST, Sarah FROST. (there is a connection with the Frosts in the Marsden tree - Ann Marsden married Samuel Frost of Coggeshall in 1809).
There is a James Wade in Fingringhoe, married to Martha, who have children baptised there in the 1760s and 1770s, and a James Wade pops up in East Donyland in the 1790s. Access to Archives mentions a 1764 will of James Wade of Stoke by Nayland, so I wonder if that's worth looking at? It's not on Discovery, but they do have the 1738 will of Thomas Wade of (drum roll please, it's that place again...) Boxford.
To Colchester - yes, that sounds like it could be the marriage of Mary Tiffin to James Mansfield, and the baptisms at the chapel sound correct - the grandchildren in Charles' will are James & Mary Ann Mansfield. I've sent off for the ESFH Colchester PR CDs - even though I've got a Seax account, it might make things a bit easier!!! I'll look all these people up on them when they arrive.
I've had a look at the Colchester CD covering 1813-51 and I have the following:
18 Jan 1841, Robert Tiffin, hosier and glover (an occupation that the Marsdens were fond of), marries Matilda Cuthbert Smith. Robert is the son of Charles Tiffin, farmer. They have several children in the 1840s and 1850s.
Mansfields in Colchester:
31 Aug 1822, at St Nicholas', by licence: John Nunn, bachelor of St Mary's, Bury St Eds, marries Eliza Wayman Mansfield, spinster and a minor (Note the middle name - this ties us back in with the Waynmans, I would say). Just checked the original register entry and it gives her father's name: James Mansfield. Is this a child of James who married Mary Tiffin? In fact, the vicar has spelt her middle name "Wayman" but she's signed it "Waynman". Thomas Waynman and Mary (Marsden) had at least two children - William b in 1783, and Sarah. It's possible James married Sarah if Mary died, I suppose.
10 Jan 1843, at All Sts, by banns the marriage of Wm Elijah Chaplin, and Mary Waller Mansfield - her father is Samuel Mansfield, bays manufacturer (note the occupation). (Edited to add: she was baptised at Stockwell Street Chapel as well - on 11 Jan 1810. Born 12 Sep 1807).
10 Oct 1820, marriage at St Giles of Samuel Mansfield of Kelvedon to Judith Pain - could be father of Mary Waller Mansfield. One of the witnesses is Bearman May - might be worth mentioning that William Cardinal Wade, son of Edward & Elizabeth, married a Judith Bearman. The Bearmans owned a not insignificant amount of land around Tendring and Beaumont-cum-Moze.
Possibly of most relevance because we can, I would say, fairly confidently identify him - a burial at St Nicholas on 8th Nov 1848 - James Mansfield, aged 83 (so b abt 1765), of St Nicholas. Possibly the husband of Mary Tiffin.
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1841 census, Maidenburgh St in St Nicholas:
James Mansfield, 75, Ind
Sarah, 65, Ind.
Sarah Bunnell? 85,
Mary Poppy, 15, FS.
Oh, and the Mansfields pop up in this book (http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=sxV2BPQkvtEC&pg=PA63&lpg=PA63&dq=%22james+mansfield%22+colchester&source=bl&ots=xYN_K20i_H&sig=1no0K6HiRKkWOqrg_ZSFG1m3Mtk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=CZB-Usq3GIyAhAfw_YHIBA&ved=0CFsQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=%22james%20mansfield%22%20colchester&f=false).
"On their first night in Colchester the Taylors [the minister of Stockwell St chapel) stayed with baymaker James Mansfield and his family. The Mansfields were Unitarian non-conformists and assembled a party to welcome the new minister and his family. Ann Taylor was struck by how closely related the company was, almost all being cheerily referred to as 'cousin'." I'm not quite clear what year this was and the digital version is showing pages rather selectively, so I'm going to borrow the book from work on Monday!
The minister was Isaac Taylor, his wife was Ann, and one of their daughters wrote "Twinkle, twinkle, little star." There's a photo of the outside of their house in the Dutch quarter here: http://www.camulos.com/virtual/guideb.htm
Photo of Stockwell Street chapel at the end of this page: http://www.camulos.com/virtual/guidea.htm
Edited to add:
And in fact.... http://freepages.family.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~taylorsofongar/ The Taylors moved to Colchester in 1796.
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Hhm, interesting. I get the impression James Mansfield baymaker may have been older than Mary Tiffin but without the marriage, can't confirm if he was a widower or not. Can't face trawling through all the Colchester parishes at the moment. ::)
However, there is an 1821 PCC Will of a James Mansfield of Colchester, he mentions his daughter Mary Wright and a Charles Heath and his two granddaughters, daughters of the said Charles Heath. I then was wondering if he was a widower because the SEAX index entry for James Mansfield senior mentions his son James, baymaker, and "all his grandchildren". Obviously he could have had other children but this is dated Jan 1789 prior to the marriage. So could the 1821 James have been Mary Tiffin's husband and he had been married before, hence Charles Heath was husband of a child by his first marriage perhaps?
There is a Robert and Mary Ann Wright having children baptised at the Stockwell Chapel from 1816. However, Robert would appear to only be a porter according to the Census but I was wondering if perhaps Mary had married against her father's wishes which was why most of his estate went to the children of Charles Heath leaving her family less financially well off. Wouldn't be the first time that has happened, I've a line in Suffolk that suffered for this reason, or I should say we suspect it was for that reason. Is there a marriage of a Robert Wright and Mary Mansfield in Colchester before 1816 at all?
There are some very incorrect trees on ancestry mudling Robert and Mary Wright of Colchester and a William and Mary Wright of Dunmow, as a son of the latter went to Australia but various people have attached documents and the wife's maiden name to the Colchester family. ::) Typical ancestry really. I suspect the Stockwell Chapel wife could be Mary Mansfield but need to confirm how many Robert and Mary Wright marriages there are around that time.
As to James Wade of Polstead, no I have the parish registers on microfiche and was looking at them yesterday and noticed the name against various banns entries. Can't though remember whether it said parish clerk or rector. If it was parish clerk, perhaps he's related to your Edward or just a coincidence?!
Interesting that Charles Tiffin witnessed your ancestor's marriage, I wouldn't have thought if Edward just worked for one of the families he would do that somehow but who knows. It's quite possible Edward Wade was related to one of them. Some of the descendants of Ann Holbrow nee Cooper, daughter of Thomas and Margaret, went from probably being reasonably well off to illiterate labourers in a couple of generations so anything is possible.
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1812 Poll Book for Colchester lists James Mansfield senior, baymaker, James Mansfield junior, miller (of London written afterwards) and Samuel Mansfield, baymaker. I suppose Samuel could be his son from a first marriage, or perhaps a younger brother, but he doesn't appear to get a mention in the 1821 James Mansfield Will, assuming that is the correct James of course. As Charles Tiffin was a miller, perhaps his grandson went into the same profession, although I can't track him after 1812 but he could have died young in London.
Edit - Mind you there is a James Mansfield in the 1835 Poll Book with Samuel, no profession and no junr/senr, so perhaps the 1821 Will is wrong person? Just a coincidence there is a Robert and Mary Wright using Stockwell Chapel, but of course could be a totally different couple as no maiden name given on the entries.
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Just a quick one, but... found the Mansfield/Tiffin marriage in the second register I looked at (All Sts, inc. people from St Botolphs).
29 Oct 1789, by licence
James Mansfield, bachelor of St James
Mary Tiffin, spinster of St Botolph's
Witnesses: John May, Wm Wootton
So how the 1789 will ties in, I don't know (if it's his father's). Perhaps he had other children who had died by then, hence bequests to the grandchildren?
I've had a quick look through the Nunn connection and found a very confusing number of men called John Nunn all appearing the same will. But it appears that Eliza Waynman Mansfield married John Nunn, who died between 1825 and 1830. They had only one child (possibly Eliza Mansfield Beeton Nunn in 1823). John's dad was called John Nunn, and he'd died before 1825. And John's grandad was also called John Nunn, and he died abt 1830. This Nunn family owned a heck of a lot of property in Guildhall St in Bury St Ed's. This info is from John senr senr's will - he leaves money to Eliza Nunn, widow of his grandson John Nunn (in a codicil - the original will was written in 1825, and because grandson John had died afterwards, he changed it to cover Eliza. He says that John & Eliza have only one child "who is now amply provided for"). What made my hair stand on end was the appearance of John senr senr's daughter, Susan - who was married to someone called (oh yes, you guessed it...) Edward Cooper. One of the Polstead/Boxford Coopers perhaps?
I do see what you mean - there is so much enthusiastic witnessing of each other's marriages, that it does suggest quite a strong connection. I did the Family Tree DNA test recently and I'd quite like to find some Cooper people to see if we can work out a connection that way (although it's probably too far back to be any use, but then again, they're all related to each other about 10 times over so maybe not!).
I saw that 1821 Mansfield will too and saw the Stockwell St chapel connection with the Charles Heath family. Charles got about too - engraving, weaving, making coins with pictures of looms on.... kept me entertained even if he's not connected! But then again, the 1821 James Mansfield might be a cousin of our James, perhaps... erm... let's see what the transcriptions CD say. Also this book about Colchester might be useful if there's a good name index in the back.
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Edward Cooper married Susan Nunn at Nowton, Suffolk on 6 May 1802 according to Suffolk Marriage Index. He's listed as being from Cavenham on the marriage. Memorial Inscriptions for West Stow, Suffolk, available via archive.org indicate he was probably Edward Forty Cooper because they have the inscription - "Edward Forty Cooper of Bury St. Edmunds, late of Cavenham in the County of Suffolk, who [died] Dec. 8, 1826, in the 48th year of his age. Susannah his wife, who [died] June 3, 1827, in the 47th year of her age."
IGI has a baptism for an Edward Torty Cooper at Culford in 1779. As far as I am aware, there is no connection between the Polstead/Boxford Coopers and a family of the same name at Culford or Cavenham.
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You've probably spotted this but Eliza Waynman Nunn widow married Samuel Manthorpe at St Botolph Aldersgate on 1 Oct 1834. Unfortunately all the witnesses are Manthorpes. ::)
On the 1851 Census they are in Colchester St Nicholas, she is listed as born c1802 in Colchester.
That 1841 Census entry for James and Sarah Mansfield in the same parish now looks more interesting. Sarah is on her own in 1851 listed as born Colchester c1775, assuming that it's the same Sarah Mansfield.
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Doesn't look like James Mansfield's second wife was a Waynman, this would appear to be the marriage as his signature looks very like the one on the marriage to Mary Tiffin:
Colchester St Nicholas
4 March 1800
James Mansfield of the parish of St Botolphs, widower, and Sarah Farran of this parish, spinster, by licence
Witnesses are Eliza Hurrall, Harriet Farran, Frances Bailey?
I suppose it's possible that Sarah's mother was a Waynman?
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Colchester St Runwald
6 Oct 1776 - Sarah daughter of Samuel and Sarah Farren
19 Aug 1781 - Samuel Waynman son of Samuel and Sarah Farran
15 Aug 1784 - Harriet daughter of Samuel and Sarah Farran
Colchester St Mary St Mary at the Walls
25 Dec 1775
Samuel Farran and Sarah Waynman, both single, both of this parish, by licence
Witnesses - Jas Waynman and Mary Farran
Definately looks like Jas rather than a T for the witnesses' name, but they're rather low resolution unfortunately. And the W for Waynman isn't like Thomas' on his marriage in 1782 although obviously the Farrans were in St Runwald. William Waynman was a widower when he married Sarah Cooper, so I suppose it's possible that the James could be a son from the first marriage?
Found this via google to http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/annapizzey/data/d50.htm
James Waynman appears to have been a solicitor and was articled in 1766, buried at St Botolphs in 1792 - see http://www.rootschat.com/links/0wt0/. The signature on his marriage at Colchester All Saints in Feb 1777 is the same as the witness to Sarah's 1775 marriage. His widow is likely to be the Elizabeth Waynman who left a Will probated in 1815. Available from Essex RO but not yet digitised.
Tends to make me think he was perhaps witnessing his half sister's marriage in 1775. ;)
William Waynman of Manningtree was apprenticed to Samuel Browne, perukemaker, in 1729. It lists his father as James. Sarah Cooper's husband obviously was from Manningtree and assuming that is the same William, you would have expected him to have had a son James after his father.
I wonder which William Waynman is the one born Colchester in Nottingham dying in 1860? The age would suggest Thomas' son as the son of James wasn't born until 1785 but that William was alive according to the website in 1815 when his mother's Will was proven. Nottingham William appears to have remarried in 1851 so that certificate would confirm things as I can't find it on any of the usual sites.
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Interestingy in light of the 1841 Census entry:
Witham St Nicholas
4 Feb 1801
William Bunnell of Witham widower and Sarah Farran of Colchester St Nicholas widow, by licence
Witnesses - John Nunn and William Constable
The Sarah signature is quite similar to the 1775 marriage and there's a John Nunn again.
Sarah Bunnell widow left a PCC Will in 1842, mentions her daughters Sarah wife of James Mansfield and Harriet wife of Roger Nunn of Colchester.
Colchester St Mary at the Walls
9 Jun 1799 Samuel Farran aged 45 years
4 March 1842 Sarah Bunnell of Colchester St Nicholas aged 87 years
Tends to make you think she was probably buried with Samuel.
Colchester St Nicholas
30 May 1809
Roger Nunn of St Botolphs, widower, and Harriet Farran of this parish, spinster, by licence
Witnesses - Sarah Mansfield, Elizabeth Nunn
This is Roger's first marriage and Harriet was a witness:
Colchester St Nicholas
21 May 1806
Roger Nunn of this parish batchelor and Elizabeth Bunnell of this parish spinster, by licence
Witnesses - Harriet Farran, Phillis Nunn, William Bunnell
Looks like Elizabeth was William Bunnell's daughter by his previous marriage and therefore Sarah Waynman's step daughter and Harriet's step sister.
Elizabeth died in 1808 and was buried at Colchester St Mary at the Wall.
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Wow, that's an amazing quantity of info - brilliant! I've just been adding it all into my tree.
I forgot to mention - there's another James Mansfield in the 1841 Colchester census, but I think the presence of Sarah Bunnell would make it 'our' James in the first example I found.
What I know about William Waynman, who married Sarah Cooper/Rayner:
Baptised 31 Aug 1713 in Manningtree, son of James Waynman and Mary (née Borham). James and Mary married on 30th Sep 1712 at Mistley, by licence (ERO don't have the licence allegation, sadly). William had siblings: Anna (baptised 1714 in Manningtree, and is a married woman with the surname Garwood in her father's will, but husband's first name not given), John (baptised Manningtree 1723) and Mary. On 23 Aug 1729, William Waynman son of James was apprenticed as a perukemaker to Samuel Browne of Colchester (as you've found). James ran The Thorn public house in Mistley, and when he wrote his will in 1750, he was a victualler in Harwich.
At some point, William married a woman called Eliza, and they had (at least) one child, baptised 13 Aug 1741 in Manningtree, called Eliza. I think this is the same Eliza Waynman who married William Winch in Fingringhoe on 5th March 1765.
As we know, William Waynman, widower of Manningtree, married Sarah Rayner, widow, at Fingringhoe in 1753. They have three children baptised in Manningtree:
Thomas - baptised 19 Feb 1755, married Mary Marsden in Colchester, dies in 1796 (his "good friend" John Whitaker Cooper is one of his executors. He also mentions that he has two children: William and Sarah. Also in this will, he mentions some property where someone called Miss Duvall is living - this is a surname I've seen before - one of the witnesses to the Cooper/Whitaker marriage in Ramsey is John Davall).
Sarah - baptised 4 June 1756. I would say her age is extra evidence that she is Sarah, wife of Samuel Farran, and then William Bunnell, mother of James Mansfield's second wife after the death of Mary (née Tiffin). (no wonder Ann Taylor was surprised with them all calling each other "cousin"!).
James - baptised 27 Dec 1758 in Ramsey, but there is a burial in Ramsey on 29 Jan 1759, for James son of William & Sarah Waynman - so quite who James Waynman, the Colchester lawman is, I don't know! (could he be a younger brother of William Waynman, rather than a son? If he was articled in 1766 - or perhaps the son of William's brother, John? How old were people when they were articled?).
William appears in this bulletin (http://eaphsc.webs.com/East%20Anglia%20Bulletin%20Sept%2009.pdf) from the East Anglia Postal History Study Circle, as the person who ran Manningtree Post Office, from 1741 to 1764.
A piece in the Ipswich Journal in 1761 mentions William Waynman of South Hall, Ramsey (which I think the Woodruffes or Woodthorpes eventually lived in) as a contact for information about poachers.
He died in 1762 (so either he's not the same fellow running the Post Office, or the date is slightly off, or perhaps his widow and or sons continued it for a couple of years) - there is a burial in Ramsey on 29 Oct for "William Waynman and his son" - it doesn't say which son. In 1763 there are two pieces in the Ipswich Journal, asking that anyone with outstanding debts owed to William approach Thomas Cooper jnr of Fingringhoe (his widow's brother, presumably). Thomas is William's executor, and William is described as being "late of Ramsey, farmer." I can't find a will so perhaps William and his nameless son with whom he was buried died in an accident together (but that usually gets a mention in PRs) or both passed away suddenly of an infectious illness, as wasn't uncommon back then, of course.
Apols if you already knew that!
Nottingham William does sound like a strand worth investigating, definitely.
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Going back to Edward Wade & Elizabeth Cardinal - the link to all this could be through Elizabeth. What if, somewhere, there's a Cardinal/Whitaker marriage?
Their eldest son, William, was baptised as just plain ol' William, but when he appears in Tendring as a wheelwright, he's William Cardinal Wade in the registers, and even on his grave stone and on his will. I had been looking for my Grandma's family in Tendring, so when I was suddenly faced with a Cardinal Wade I thought - here we go! There was a fairly wealthy Cardinal family in Tendring at the time, so to begin with I thought maybe the Wades were related to them - hence William being in Tendring. But after looking at some Cardinal wills, and not being able to see a relationship, I thought maybe William was being a bit cheeky and thought he'd get some caché by using his mother's maiden name as his middle name as it just happened to be the same as one of the local families of note. I seem to remember that the Cardinals appear in the "visitations" as well, so they were well-heeled.
But now I'm wondering if there's any connection between the Coopers/Whitakers/Tiffins/Waynmans and the Cardinals? I haven't seen anything yet, though, but perhaps...... this is a different story!
Just looked back to the will of Isabell Cardinal of Tendring (http://essexandsuffolksurnames.co.uk/documents/wills/isabell_cardinall_will_1771_1772.pdf) on my website, and there's a daughter called Elizabeth who married John Garwood of Frating - there's a mystery Garwood in the Waynman tree. Hmmm....
Incidentally, I've just put the will of Thomas Tiffin of Layer-de-la-Haye (http://essexandsuffolksurnames.co.uk/documents/wills/thomas_tiffin_will_1741_1742.pdf) on there too - it looks like the Tiffins originated from around Earls Colne, and in 1742, his son, John, was in Earls Colne and inherited most of his property. It's possible that Thomas is the grandfather of John (who married Sarah Whitaker) and Charles (who married Mary Rayner). They're not mentioned in the will but they could be the sons of Thomas' son John. I'm going to go and delve about in the Earls Colne database to see if I can find anything... *determined face*
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From the Earls Colne database:
Will of John Tiffin of Earls Colne, 1752 (http://linux02.lib.cam.ac.uk/earlscolne/probate/93000025.htm)
in the name of god amen I Jn Tiffin of Earls Colne in the county of Essex yeoman being sick of body but of sound mind and memory thanks be to god for the same do make this my last will and testament in manner following and first I give and devise all my lands tenements and hereditaments whatsoever and wheresoever as well freehold as copyhold and of whatsoever manner or manners they be holden unto my loving wife Sarah Tiffin and her heirs to be by her sold and the money arising therefrom after discharging the mortgages therefrom if any be disposed on in such manner as she shall think proper for the good of my younger children also I give and bequeath my lease of the farm I now dwell in and all other my personal estate whatsoever and whatsoever unto my loving wife Sarah Tiffin subject nevertheless to my just debts funeral charges and proving this my will and of this my will I do appoint my said loving wife Sarah Tiffin whole and sole executrix in witness whereof I have hereunto set my hand and seal this 30.4.1752 Jn Tiffin signed sealed and declared by the testator Jn Tiffin to be his last will and testament in the presence of us who at his request and in his presence set our hands as witnessed thereto Rich Wale mark Mary Moss Wm Leach
Will of Sarah Tiffin of Earls Colne, 1771 (http://linux02.lib.cam.ac.uk/earlscolne/probate/93000250.htm)
the last will and testament of Sarah Tiffin of Earls Colne in the county of Essex widow first I give unto my son Jn Tiffin the sum of one guinea also I give unto my son Wm Tiffin 15li also I give unto my son Phil Tiffin 25li also I give unto my son Jas Tiffin the sum of 20li also I give unto my (sic) Chas Tiffin the sum of one guinea also I give unto my daughter Sarah the wife of Jn Burles the sum of 20li and all my wearing apparel of all sorts and my two gold rings all my legacies as above disposed of to be paid by my executors within one year after my decease all the rest and residue of my estate wheresoever and whatsoever whether real or personal I give unto my son Robt Tiffin and his heirs forever he first paying off all my just debts and legacies funeral charges and the proving of this my will and I do nominate constitute and appoint my son Robt Tiffin sole executor of this my last will and testament in witness whereof I the said Sarah Tiffin the testator have hereunto set my hand and seal this 4.7.1771 the mark of Sarah Tiffin signed sealed published and declared by the testator as and for her last will and testament in the presence of us as witnessed thereunto in her presence and in the presence each other of us Thos Scillitoe Jas Moul Ab Totman
The database has this baptism: Chas Tiffin son of Jn Tiffin and Sarah Tiffin christened 5.2.1736. I wonder if this is the same Charles who witnessed Edward & Sarah Wade's marriage and (so it seems) married Mary Rayner? I think the will of Thomas Tiffin draws together the Layer Tiffins and the Earls Colne Tiffins.
24.3.1731 the wife of Thos Tiffin (buried) in woollen (so he then married Martha, who appears in his 1741 will?)
This voters list (http://linux02.lib.cam.ac.uk/earlscolne/session/22100519.htm) mentions Jonathan Tiffin who voted in 1734 - lives in Layer Breton, freehold in Earls Colne.
Thos Tiffin buried in wool 13.11.1741 - this is probably Thomas from Layer-de-la-Haye. In fact, this whole list (http://linux02.lib.cam.ac.uk/earlscolne/names/T153.htm) seems to be Thomas.
The only thing is... Thomas and Ann have a son, John, baptised 22 Jun 1690, then he's buried 15 Sep 1702, and there isn't another John, son of Thomas Tiffin in that list. But... Thomas' will has a son, John. This could be a different family, of course.... But I think the will of John, is the same chap who inherits from Thomas Tiffin, and the will of Sarah Tiffin gives us, possibly, John & Charles. It's a shame it doesn't mention where they're living at the time, or the names of their children or wives, for us to be able to tie it all together. By shame I mean ARRRRGGHHH!!! ;)
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Oooh look:
24.6.1717 Thos Tiffin of Earls Colne aged 25yr single and Hannah Patten of Wakes Colne 22yr single bond Thos Tiffin farmer and Jn Patten of Great Tey yeoman to marry at Abberton
Abberton being next door to LDLH and Fingringhoe.
And then poor Thomas jnr died a few months later: Thos Tiffin junior buried in wool 5.10.1717
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I give you... Roger Nunn, MD, mayor of Colchester 1834 and 1842!
(http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/arts/yourpaintings/images/paintings/com/large/esx_com_colem_182a_large.jpg)
From BBC Your Paintings (http://www.bbc.co.uk/arts/yourpaintings/paintings/roger-nunn-md-mayor-of-colchester-1834-1842-2416). Held by the Colchester & Ipswich Museum Service.
Roger died in 1844. He and Harriet had a vast number of children - 9 girls and a boy. Girl #8 was called, of course, Octavia.
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From "The Autobiography and Other Memorials of Mrs Gilbert (http://digital.library.upenn.edu/women/taylor/autobiography/autobiography-I.html)":
"On arriving at Colchester we were located for a few days under the hospitable roof of a Mr Mansfield, one of [Page 95] the deacons, a worthy man of some property, a manufacturer of "says" and baize, the former a sort of poor flannel, then the lingering staple of the town.* Here we were struck with the singular concatenation of relationship among those who assembled to greet the new minister's family–it was my "Cousin Dolly" and my: "Cousin Jerry," &c., without end.† Mr and Mrs Mansfield completed their wedding jubilee soon afterwards, when house and garden were thrown open to all comers, and they were filled with children, grandchildren, great grandchildren, and relations in every degree."
The reference to "cousin" this and "cousin" that.... " "† The remarkable consanguinity mentioned was, no doubt, due to the Huguenot immigration, as also to some extent were the Nonconformist communities.–[ED.]"
I've borrowed "A Pleasing Prospect", which should be quite interesting as a history of 18th C Colchester. Puts all this into context, I would hope.
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Interesting, amazing what you can find with a bit of digging about. ;D
Going back to your Wades, do you think your Elizabeth Cardinal is the one baptised in Alresford whose father died in 1749 (if memory serves me right)? Doesn't help with that parish having missing records like LDLH. ::) Is a bit of an issue in Essex in places, I've a similar problem up on the Suffolk border.
What's the Colchester book like? Just wondering if it may be any use to my Aunt and her somewhat infamous Lester ancestors from the town.
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It could be her - when she died in 1803, her age was given as 62, so she was born about 1741. The baptism of Elizabeth Cardinal, daughter of Wm & Elizth in 1743 might be about right. But like you say, it's impossible to know for sure because if we had the earlier baptisms for LDLH, we could rule out whether she was born there or not. In August, ERO announced that they'd just added the Tolleshunt D'Arcy 1560-1770 register, so I live in hope that maybe one day LDLH's will miraculously reappear too!
The Alresford baptism might tie in with her son Thomas moving to Alresford. He married a women from Walton-le-Soken in 1798, where his abode is given as Fingringhoe. They had two children baptised in Fingringhoe (1799 and 1801), then had moved to Alresford by the time of the baptism of a daughter in 1806.
Just had a look at the index of the Colchester book and can't see the Lester family in there, I'm afraid. But it probably makes good background reading for anyone who has relatives living there at the time, I would think.
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Another possible connection with the Alresford family would be the fact you say Edward and Elizabeth's son William adopted Cardinal as a middle name, although he wasn't baptised as that. May indicate perhaps he thought he was named after his maternal grandfather. ;) All supposition but does make you wonder.
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That's true - he's the first child and he's called William rather than Edward, so he clearly wasn't named after his father. Hmmm..... I might have a rummage about and see if there's any connections with other Cardinals from Alresford.
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I've just found something that links Waynmans, Marsdens and Yells.... (and if we assume that Sarah Wade, widow, who married Joseph Yell, is Edward Wade's mum, then this is quite interesting because it suggests a link that goes beyond witnessing each other's marriages!).
1816 sessions bundle at ERO:
recognizances of William Finch of Colchester, milkman, Joseph Hammond of Finginghoe, sailor, John Strutt of Colchester, labourer, Richard Broom, Robert Moore of Colchester, coachmaker, John Marsden and William Waynman, James YELL the younger of East Donyland, farmer and Thomas Talbott of Colchester, carter;
In transcribing East Donyland, I found an 1811 marriage where Henry Norman Game of Colchester marries Mary Ann Yell, and one of the witnesses is Ann Wade.
Also, that could presumably be the William Waynman who moved to Nottingham.
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Hhm, interesting. ;D ;D Does now make you think that perhaps if Sarah Yell formerly Wade was Edward's mother, then her maiden name is most likely to be Whitaker as Edward's daughter was Sarah Whitaker Wade. Or there is a good chance of that since I've seen quite a few occasions when children have been given a surname for a middle name, it's usually 'cos of someone of a prior generation with both names.
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The National Archives are showing an abstract of the Will of Joseph Wade senior of Layer de la Haye dated 1810 on the website, available to purchase for the same price as PCC Wills.
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Good point!
Yes, I've had a look at that abstract but it doesn't give much info. No Wades are mentioned, but there are some of his children. I'm ordering a copy of it anyway from ERO just to check.
I've also been in touch with them about the Sessions bundle, and they can copy the relevant section for me, so this is all going in the same order!
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Also, the Cardinal middle name goes on and on! I've just found William Cardinal Cranfield, son of William Wadley Cranfield, and his wife Euphemia. Euphemia's maiden name? Wade. Euphemia's dad was William Cardinal Wade, and he's also my 3 x gt-grandmother's brother. (and that also backs up what you've just said about naming people with the first name and middle name of an ancestor's first name and surname - he's got his grandad's first name and middle name. But then also his dad's first name. Oh, you know what I mean!).
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I thought I'd investigate the Game family - see if that gave any clues, as Henry Game's marriage gives us Yells and Wades. Well... I found this newspaper report from 1831, when a Henry Game of East Donyland was accused of stealing some chickens from John Whitaker Cooper, and someone called Joseph Wade (who I think could be a son of Edward Wade 2nd., born in 1809) gets all Sherlock Holmes.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v163/helvissa/gamewadecooperfowls_zpsf576e804.png)
(Essex Standard, 19 Nov 1831)
There's a fuller report in the same paper on 3rd December - Joseph Wade is a carpenter, and there's a huge amount of space given over to it, including the name of the housekeeper, the fact that Cooper gives her some of the money for the sale of the fowls (he seems like a nice chap - he started a charity for bread for the poor in Fingringhoe in his will). Game is acquitted (though he may have had Cooper's fowls, there's no proof that he actually stole them), but is told off for allowing raffling in his pub!
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More!
No Yell baptisms in Layer de la Haye between 1767 and 1812, however, I'm up to 1781 in the burials and have Sarah Yell, buried there on 18 Jan 1779. This could be the wife of Joseph Yell, who was widow Sarah Wade when they married in the 1750s.
I have a Mary Tiffin buried in Layer de la Haye on 13 May 1773.
And I think I've found Charles Tiffin's 2nd (or perhaps there was another in the intervening years?) marriage to the Rebecca who appears in his 1803 will - 1 Sep 1795 at Limehouse St Anne in Tower Hamlets:
By banns.
Charles Tiffin, widower, & Rebekah Waters, widow, both of St Anne's.
Witnesses: Thos. ? Howard, Humphry Weston, Mary Mansfield.
This is presumably Mary, daughter of Charles & Mary Tiffin, born about 1767 and married James Mansfield in Colchester in 1789, with the two children, Mary Ann (1790-?) and James (1791-?).
Not quite sure what Charles is doing there, but anyway.
Then again, there's a Charles Tiffin marrying in Bethnal Green St Matthew, a bachelor, in 1786. It could be coincidence that the widower's marriage was to a Rebecca - it could be Mary Tiffin/Mansfield's brother, who moved to London, married in 1786, was widowed, and then happened to marry someone called Rebecca, as his father had done. That said, the signature on the 1786 and 1795 marriages aren't that similar, and in fact the 1795 sig looks closer to the one on the Layer de la Haye marriage that a Charles Tiffin witnessed in 1767.
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Chances are with a 1767 remarriage, Sarah may have been too old to have any more children, hence no other baptisms in LDLH. ;)
I didn't think Charles Tiffing and Mary Rayner had a son Charles? The only two appearing in LDLH are the burial of John and Mary's baptism. As Charles' Will doesn't mention as son Charles, I doubt they had one or if they did before the records start, he probably died as a child. If his father was John, that would explain the son of that name. ;D
I've some lines from Harwich who married in London, in fact have one that married in central Kent, but all returned to Harwich. Somebody may have been working/living down there. Not that unusual.
In reference to signatures, I'd say that 1795 marriage is the same Charles Tiffin who married Mary Rayner in 1765. The T and two f's in the surname are definately the same and probably unique enough to say this. I think the fact he signed it Charles in 1765 and Chas in 1795 is probably causing some doubt, but I've seen William's sign William and Wm on different entries too. As we've found out trying to trace some lines in Essex and London, no two signatures are ever identical but you can often find characteristics which, along with other evidence, suggest could be the same person. ;D ;D
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Oh, the Yell/Wade marriage is 24 Dec 1755 - Joseph Yell is a single man when he marries Sary Wade, a widow, so if the 1810 Joseph Yell senior will is the same man, then the children mentioned in the will would be the children of him and Sarah Wade (unless he remarried after Sarah's (possible) death in 1779). As we don't have the earlier baptisms for LDLH, there's no way yet to tie them together, but I'm going to see what I can find! In the 1780s and 1790s there's some Yells (John & Joseph) in Abberton, so I suppose those could be Joseph's children.
Edward Wade 1 would've been about 13 when the 1755 marriage took place, so if Sarah Wade widow *was* his mother, then she could have been in her late 20s/early 30s, and so probably wouldn't have had any children after 1767 (when the baptism register starts). There's a John Wade who appears in the LDLH register, and a James pops up in Fingringhoe - they could be Edward's brothers from his mother's first marriage. I'm curious as to Ann Wade, who witnesses the 1811 Game/Yell marriage in East Donyland, is. I shall keep rummaging...
There seem to be some Yells in Bradfield and Manningtree in the mid-1700s, which might be a connection with the Waynmans also being around there at about the same time. That's just going on Boyd's, though.
Re the Tiffin marriages: Yes, I think the signatures contain enough similaries for them to be the same chap, and as we have someone called Mary Mansfield witnessing, as we know he could've been a widow by then, and as we have a Rebecca as his wife on his will, it's enough evidence to suggest that is Charles' marriage.
I was thinking aloud about the other Charles - wondering if we could discount him. But again, because the baptisms don't start in LDLH until 1767, it could be that Charles Tiffin and Mary (née Rayner) did have a son called Charles. But... he's not in the 1803 Charles Tiffin will, so at the moment it would be impossible to say.
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Think I've found one of your Coopers (Thomas Cooper - the signature looks familiar) witness a marriage in Peldon - 26 Sep 1791. Edward Salmon of Little Wigborough and Anne Pack. I think the connection is the Cooper who married a Salmon and living in Langenhoe?
12 Feb 1793
William Mortimer of Peldon marries Sarah Tiffin of Abberton by licence. Witnesses: Geo. Wayland and Wm Salmon. Possibly the Sarah baptised in Abberton in 1764, daughter of William and Sarah Tiffin (erm... Wm could be Charles Tiffin's brother?). I'm just chucking these out while I find them in case they come in handy later.
09 Feb 1796 at Peldon
Charles Tiffin, bachelor, marries Sarah Pack, spinster. Witnesses: Edwd Salmon, Wm Hubbard. By licence.
Surprise Wades in Peldon:
22 Dec 1745 John son of William & Hannah Wade
06 Mar 1747/8 Hannah of Edward & Hannah Wade (born 2 Mar) (marriage 1744, Edward Wade & Hannah Williams both single persons).
11 Dec 1748 George of John & Elizabeth Wade (born 26 Nov) (marriage: 27 Sep 1747, John Wade bachelor of Peldon, Elizabeth Smith spinster of West Mersea)
23 Dec 1750 James of James & Hannah Wade (Born 16 Nov)
Oh god, my head's just exploded....
But that's it (and I've gone up to the late 1770s).
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I started to read Shania D'Cruze's A Pleasing Prospect and in it she mentions the John Bensusan Butt archive, which is a collection of research on about 1,000 people who lived in Colchester in the 1700s. D'Cruze has, since writing the book, put together the research as downloadable Lulu pdf (http://www.lulu.com/shop/search.ep?contributorId=585660)books called Colchester People, in three volumes. You won't be surprised to find out that the Mansfield, Marsdens and Waynmans appear in it.
There are 5 entries for James Mansfield (includes summaries of people mentioned in wills, some apprenticeship info, bankruptcy, bits from local papers, who they voted for and when - LOADS of very interesting stuff). Some of it is a little muddled - the Mansfield/Farran marriage is attributed to the wrong James (hey, I'm not surprised, it's confused me too!), but this is what I can work out from the Bensusan Butt archive and what we've found out already....
Our James Mansfield, b abt 1766, who married Mary Tiffin, was the 3rd James Mansfield.
James Mansfield 1st is the man who wrote the 1789 will, which is the date it was written - it doesn't seem to have been proved. In this will he leaves most of his property to his son James 2nd (I had assumed that the son in the 1789 will was James Mansfield 3rd - I was wrong).
In this will, James 2nd has two sons mentioned: Samuel and James. I believe James 2nd's son James is James 3rd (husband of Mary Tiffin).
The 1789 will mentions other grandchildren: Mary, wife of Samuel Wright and Sarah, wife of Charles Heath. This ties in with the 1821 PCC will of James Mansfield, where we have Mary Wright and his grandchildren who are the children of Charles Heath. So therefore, the 1821 will is that of James 2nd, father of James 3rd (it also means we can identify the father of the Mary and Sarah in James 1st's will - it means that James 2nd had at least four children - Mary, Sarah, Samuel and James 3rd).
And also in the 1789 will, there are Gledhill grandsons - these are sons of the late Joseph Gledhill, innholder - so James 1st had a daughter, who married Joseph Gledhill (not found the marriage yet). This could be significant because when I did a soundex search on FreeREG for Gledhills, I came up with Gladwell - and there are Gladwell/Tiffin marriages in Fingringhoe (yes, we're back there) in the 1800s. Could be significant - could be coincidental. The Gledhills are possibly something to do with the dissenting minister Gledhill in Colchester in the early 1700s.
There is mention in Colchester People of a memorial inscription in St Giles for "Mary wife of James Mansfield, daughter of Charles Tiffin", who is possibly the one born in LDLH in 1767. Just looking through St Giles burials - 22 Jul 1798 would, I think, be referring to her (the reference in Colchester people says she died 18 Jul 17??, but the age is given as 61 - I think it's our Mary, and I think the age should be 31!!!
But from what I can see in Colchester People, I think that James Mansfield 1st was the son of another (ANOTHER!) James Mansfield (Erm... James Mansfield zero?). Buried in St Giles in 1780, aged 80, his wife was Mary, also buried in St Giles, in 1785, aged 77.
This is about as much as my brain can take for now... time for lunch!
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Ooh, well found but my head's spinning too, will have to re-read again later. ;D ;D ;D
Hhm, those eBooks Colchester People look quite interesting. I've several sidelines that ended up there, plus some that were there earlier on so could be useful.
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There's some interesting stuff about the Marsdens in "Colchester People". Mary Marsden/Waynman/Nice makes an appearance (doesn't add much to what we already know, other than that she changed her husband's business when he died from seedsman to milliner, operating from the same shop on the High St opposite the town hall. Presumably this is why she ended up marrying Thomas Nice, linen draper. Sadly there's no extra info about Nice).
There's info on her father, John Marsden - he was a framework knitter and was apprenticed in Mansfield, Nottinghamshire in 1754. This comes from a settlement certificate of 1766, presumably about the time he moved to Colchester. This possibly explains why William Waynman, Thomas & Mary's son, went to Nottingham - because he had family there (I wonder if Mary moved up there too?). There's info on three of Mary's brothers: John, who married 3 times, Reuben, who went bankcrupt, and then loads of stuff about her brother Isaac.
Isaac was a printer and amongst the various things he got up to, he was imprisoned for publishing a libellous poem (written by someone else). While married to his first wife, he had a child with his wife's sister, he married again and had a mistress (and had to resign from the Baddow Road independent church he was at under "extraordinary circumstances" - his mistress' four children died in such a way that it seemed he may have smothered them. This comes from the church's archive, so I think may have to delve - I'm curious as to who the mistress was. And whether or not it was true - because I can't see it in the newspapers), and then when wife #2 died, he married for a third time. He was in his 50s and he married a 23-year old.
And... because his sister knew my family, my family may very well have known Isaac. Extraordinary circumstances, indeed.
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The 1753 to 1812 Colchester transcription CDs arrived, which have given some interesting info.
It's taken me back to my Pritchetts and I think I've identified another sister (Catherine) and possibly *another*, Louisa, as well as more marriages for the girls (one of them, Charlotte, married 3 times!). I've been trying to trace these women forwards in the records because if I can get them to the 1841 census or - even better - 1851, it would give me a clue where I could look for their baptisms/births. But as yet, I've hit brick walls with all of them.
Harriet Pritchett, married Joseph Clark White in 1801 in Lexden. He was buried in Lexden ("of St Botolph's") in 1806, and in 1807, Harriet married Benjamin Hudson. They're both of St Botolph's, but there's no Hudsons I can find that could be them.
Catherine Pritchett married Robert Ferguson in 1808, both of St Botolph's. He dies (not found his burial in Colchester or on FreeREG or Findmypast, and haven't found any children), and in 1814 she marries Benjamin Humphries of Weeley. Then they both disappear! (no Humphries in Weeley, nothing in the newspapers....).
I did wonder if Robert Ferguson was a soldier. It doesn't say so in the marriage register and they often did say so at the time, but of course, there's always some that are exceptions.
Another possible Pritchett sister is Louisa - she turns up witnessing Harriett's 2nd marriage and Charlotte's 3rd (in Fulham) as Louisa Lyons. Also witnessing Charlotte's marriage is Sarah Louisa Lyons, and I found a baptism at All Saints in Colchester in 1807 for Sarah Louisa, daughter of Wm & Louisa Lyons, born in 1802. I then found the marriage for Wm & Louisa in Canterbury in 1800 - he's an ensign in the 20th regiment of foot, and she's a widow, Louisa McDowell, of Lexden in Colchester. In 1800, most of the Pritchetts were still living in Lexden, and without her maiden name (I looked *everywhere* for her first marriage) I can't discount the fact that she might be a sister.
So I moved on a bit with my Pritchetts, but ended up with more mysteries, as is ever the way....
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Oh - what I meant to add was, it ties us back in with the Whitakers again. Charlotte Pritchett's second marriage was to Thomas Jaggard of Fingringhoe. One of the witnesses was Edward Wade (not surprising as she's his sister-in-law) but... there's something else. There's a chap in Fingringhoe who is possibly Charlotte's stepson who has two sons (both dying as infants) who are called Thomas Whitaker Jaggard. When John Whitaker Cooper dies in the 1830s, "Jaggard's Farm" (apparently built by a Thomas Jaggard - Charlotte's stepfather, I think, unless it's actually her husband - in the 1780s/1790s) is part of the estate that is sold. So is it a familial connection or is it the case that they wanted to honour Cooper's family in some way? (which begs again the question - why not just call the child Thomas Cooper Jaggard?!).
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Ooh, getting more confusing. ??? It may be that Thomas Jaggard had a pre-existing connection to the Whitakers, hence the use of the name and the marriage with Charlotte via her Wade connection. Definately getting confusing, much be a connection somewhere. As you say, if it had been to "honour" John Whitaker Cooper, why Thomas and why not Cooper as a middle name? Probably more likely a connection with the Whitakers ...
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I've been quiet for a while as I've been digging. I have AT LAST found a connection, although not where I expected.
Yesterday I got Joseph Yell's will. He died in 1810 and wrote his will in 1809. He mentions Grace Howes (née Wade - Joseph Yell married Sary Wade, a widow in LDLH in 1755), who is probably his stepdaughter. I wondered why he didn't mention my ancestor, Edward Wade 1, who I suspect is his stepson - but then I checked my notes and remembered that Edward had died in 1808. Joseph had loads of grandchildren so I don't think there was enough room in his will for all the Wades as well (sadly!). Grace only gets £3 or £5.
So today, I got the two Thomas Jaggard wills in Fingringhoe. There are a lot of people in Fingringhoe of that name, but I think I've managed to tease them all out. We have Thomas Jaggard who married Charlotte Pritchett (Charlotte's sister, Sarah, married Edward Wade 2). Thomas died in 1812, and his age at death gives a rough year of birth of 1758. Can't find his baptism but he appears in the will of Thomas Jaggard who died in 1781. There are other baptisms in Fingringhoe for Thomas (d. 1781) and his wife Rebecca in the 1760s and 1770s, who I assume are siblings or half-siblings of Thomas (1758-1812). I checked the Colchester register transcriptions, and found a marriage in Colchester St Giles (the parish closest to Fingringhoe) on 20 Sep 1758 for Thomas Jaggard, widower, and Rebecca Winch, spinster. Both of St Giles.
I think Rebecca might be the same one who appears in the will of John Winch of Fingringhoe, written on 8th May 1755 (proved July the same year). Rebecca is one of his daughters, and one of John Winch's sons, William, married Anne Waynman in Fingringhoe on 5th March 1765. Anne was the daughter of William Waynman and his first wife, before he married Sarah Cooper in 1753.
So in an extremely roundabout way, I now have an actual link by marriage between the Waynman/Cooper/Whitaker clan and my family!
But... this means at the moment the actual familial connection is via Charlotte Pritchett's 2nd marriage in 1807 (Edward Wade 2 appears on the marriage licence allegation as a witness) with Thomas Jaggard, but the connection should be earlier than that because we can go back to Edward Wade 1's marriage in 1767 when Charles Tiffin is a witness, and Edward Wade 2's marriage in 1791 where Mary Waynman is a witness.
When Charlotte and Thomas married, she was resident in Colchester, and Thomas was resident in Fingringhoe - I suspect she met Thomas through her sister and brother-in-law in Fingringhoe.
The two boys baptised Thomas Whitaker Jaggard are in fact grandsons of the Thomas Jaggard who married Charlotte Pritchett. So they are connected by marriage to the Whitakers, but rather distantly!
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Aaaand... we have another Whittaker baby.
Joseph Whittaker Woodward, son of William and Eliza, baptised in Layer-de-la-Haye on 30 Aug 1829.
There may be a connection here - Charles Whittaker Wade son of Edward Wade and Sarah Pritchett) married Hannah Woodward. Hannah always put Layer de la Haye as her place of birth on the censuses, but there's no baptism for her there. However, there are several Woodwards about, and going on Hannah and William's ages, it's not unlikely that they're brother and sister. So it could be that the Woodwards are related to the Whittakers as well, or that William Woodward used the name for his son (his first child) because of something to do with the Wade family that his sister had married into. Maybe Charles, his brother-in-law, helped him in some way? Or indeed, John Whittaker Wade?
The other thing is that I've had a look at a tree that includes the Woodwards, and William's wife, Eliza, was from Lexden (in fact, they married there). This is rather interesting given that the Pritchetts were in Lexden before moving to Fingringhoe (and a couple of them were buried there).
Someone has gone through the LDLH registers putting a big X by every appearance made by the Woodwards - I wonder why? Some 19th century family historian? Someone trying to prove descent for legal reasons?
Honestly, the gaps and missing volumes in the LDLH registers are such a shame! :(
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Hi folks,
I'm a brand new boy having come to RootsChat after 13 years of FH research.
I'm interested in the Coopers of Polstead having found in Thomas Cooper's PCC will (proved 18 Jul 1771) that his dau. Judith was the wife of John Woodruffe farmer of Ramsey Essex. John Woodruffe & Judith were my 4 X Gt Gnd parents. Does anyone know who was Thomas Cooper's wife, when & where did they marry ?
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Hello!
From what I know, Thomas' wife was Margaret, which comes from the baptisms of their children. Your Judith was baptised in Fingringhoe on 1st November 1729. There is a possible 2nd marriage for Thomas, however - that, as a widower of Boxford, he married Sarah Clark, a widow, in 1728. With Judith being aged 80 when she died in 1808 (although consider the fact that ages at death may not be cast-iron), I suppose she could've been born in 1728, rather than the year of her baptism (given that by 1729 Thomas was married to Sarah, but Margaret is the name given as Judith's mother at her baptism). So what may have happened is that in 1728, Margaret dies (maybe in childbirth), Thomas marries Sarah Clark, and then by 1729, he's moved to Fingringhoe. Certainly his son, also Thomas, stayed in Essex.
And Thomas' parents were Thomas Cooper and Elizabeth Mash. Sorry, that's three Thomas, just to confuse things!
You might find this interesting.... Someone related to me through the Wades took some photos in the churchyard there of our family's graves (photo credit on my webpage). I started this thread to explore the links between the Wade and Cooper families, and the following photo shows something very intriguing....
(http://essexandsuffolksurnames.co.uk/history/wade/images/wade_pritchett_cooper_graves.jpg)
The ivy-covered tomb in the middle of the photo is that of Edward Wade and Elizabeth Cardinal, and the brick tomb just behind it is that of Thomas Cooper and his wife, Mary. Thomas Cooper is your Judith's brother.
I'm currently writing up my Wade research, and it does include mention of your Cooper family: http://essexandsuffolksurnames.co.uk/history/wade/edward_wade_elizabeth_cardinal.htm
and:
http://essexandsuffolksurnames.co.uk/history/wade/edward_wade_sarah_pritchett.htm
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Also -
You'll have the names of Thomas' children in his 1771 will. I've found the following baptisms:
- Sarah Cooper, baptised Polstead 4th Feb 1717, daughter of Tho Cooper (she married John Rayner in Wivenhoe in 1738, then William Waynman in Fingringhoe in 1753).
- Elizabeth Cooper, baptised Polstead 5th Nov 1719, daughter of Tho Cooper (she married Samuel Oakley of Stanway at Fingringhoe in 1741)
- Thomas Cooper, baptised Polstead 25th April 1723, son of Thomas and Margaret Cooper (this is the chap in the brick tomb - he married Mary Whittaker at Fingringhoe in 1755, and then in 1774 he married a widow called Mary Nicholas)
- Ann Cooper - born about 1726 (not found her baptism yet - probably Boxford, Suffolk. She married John Holbrow in Suffolk in 1749. I've not found the marriage, but the Sudbury marriage licence allegations are on archive.org: "John Holbrow of Shelly, yeoman, sm, 28 & Ann Cooper of Polstead, 23, to marry at same or at Wiston". I've estimated her year of birth from the marriage licence allegation).
- Judith - as you know - baptised Fingringhoe 1729, d of Thos and Margaret
- Margaret - mystery child! Maybe baptised same place as Ann
Polstead's registers have been transcribed by familysearch.org, and I'm currently transcribing Boxford's for freereg.org.uk
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Hello!
From what I know, Thomas' wife was Margaret, which comes from the baptisms of their children. Your Judith was baptised in Fingringhoe on 1st November 1729. There is a possible 2nd marriage for Thomas, however - that, as a widower of Boxford, he married Sarah Clark, a widow, in 1728. With Judith being aged 80 when she died in 1808 (although consider the fact that ages at death may not be cast-iron), I suppose she could've been born in 1728, rather than the year of her baptism (given that by 1729 Thomas was married to Sarah, but Margaret is the name given as Judith's mother at her baptism). So what may have happened is that in 1728, Margaret dies (maybe in childbirth), Thomas marries Sarah Clark, and then by 1729, he's moved to Fingringhoe. Certainly his son, also Thomas, stayed in Essex.
Sarah Clark is Thomas Cooper senior's second wife, his first being as mentioned Elizabeth Mash. Thomas' Will was proven in 1742 at the Archdeaconry of Sudbury and mentions his wife Sarah. I don't have a burial for Elizabeth Mash but I may have missed it. Thomas senior was of Boxford when he wrote his Will so the burial may be there. Must dig out my fiche copies of Boxford and Polstead parish registers and take another look. ;D
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Ann Cooper - born about 1726 (not found her baptism yet - probably Boxford, Suffolk.
Ann was baptised at Polstead too on 14 Aug 1725. Unfortunately another example of familysearch not including all entries in their transcript. ::) I don't have a baptism for Margaret but it's possible she could have been born between Ann in 1725 in Polstead and Judith in Fingringhoe in 1729 in another parish. I've not found her in either Polstead or Boxford, unless I missed it.
I haven't as yet found a marriage for Thomas and Margaret, it's not in Polstead or Boxford and as it's post 1700 Boyds Marriage Index isn't very good for this period and Suffolk FHS Marriage Index doesn't yet cover that period.
Thomas Cooper senior was baptised at Boxford 15 Sept 1692, the son of Edward Cooper and Anne nee Nelson. He was the eldest son and fourth child to them. I've not found a marriage entry for them but Anne's Will appoints her brother James Nelson of Nayland as supervisor (proven 1698 at Archdeaconry of Sudbury). James Nelson, along with Anne Nelson's son Thomas Cooper, also get a mention in the Will of Robert Mills of Polstead proven in 1700. James is listed as Robert's brother and Thomas as his kinsman, which isn't unusual as nephew/nieces often are referred to in Wills of this time as kinsman rather than the other term.
Edward and Anne Cooper's daughter Anne is my 7x Great Grandmother. Thomas of Polstead and Fingringhoe being her nephew.
The Coopers are in Polstead and Boxford for many generations, the earliest I've found is the baptism of Thomasine Cowper in 1560. Edward Cooper, who married Anne Nelson, was her great nephew. Edward's parents married in Colchester, but his father was from Polstead and returned there. So far I've not worked out where they moved from into Polstead in the 1560s, but there are quite a few Cooper/Cowper families in the area which gets confusing. :-\ In fact Anne Nelson's paternal grandmother was a Susan Cowper, who married Edmund Nelson in Polstead in 1583. Its not clear whether she is related to the other Cooper family in Polstead at that time, but it is possible.
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Ahhhh.... I got my Thomas Coopers mixed up! I did wonder about the 1728 second marriage and the 1729 baptism in Fingringhoe.
*shakes fist at Family Search!!!*
Anyway, Hairy Greenweed, you are now in the capable hands of Smudwhisk, who is in fact a Cooper rel of yours. :)
(Smudwhisk - as a total aside: do you anything about the Rayners in Polstead/Boxford? I'd be intrigued to see if William Rayner, farmer of Polstead, who got married at Fingringhoe, had any children. I wouldn't be surprised if he's a son of Sarah Cooper's from her first marriage to John Rayner, the surgeon. I've got a Samuel Rayner (who worked *as* a cooper, just to confuse things) who turns up as an executor in letters of admon for one of my ancestors, and it's plausible we might have yet another of these random connections between my family and yours, if Samuel turns out to be Wm's son.)
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Ahhhh.... I got my Thomas Coopers mixed up! I did wonder about the 1728 second marriage and the 1729 baptism in Fingringhoe.
There are five generations of Christopher Coopers in that family, so that can get confusing. The second is Edward Cooper's father, although I've not found a baptism for Edward yet. However, Christopher's Will does mention son Edward and there isn't another Edward in the area. Christopher's wife was Judith and Edward did have a Judith albeit his youngest daughter. Edward and Anne in any case only had three sons, two Edward's and a Thomas after Anne's father. ;D
(Smudwhisk - as a total aside: do you anything about the Rayners in Polstead/Boxford? I'd be intrigued to see if William Rayner, farmer of Polstead, who got married at Fingringhoe. I wouldn't be surprised if he's a son of Sarah Cooper's from her first marriage to John Rayner, the surgeon. I've got a Samuel Rayner (who worked *as* a cooper, just to confuse things) who turns up as an executor in letters of admon for one of my ancestors, and it's plausible we might have yet another of these random connections between my family and yours, if Samuel turns out to be Wm's son.)
Hhm, interesting because John and Sarah did have a son William baptised in Wivenhoe in 1745 ... may have to take a closer look in light of the family connection with Polstead. ;D
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Well, if it wasn't confusing, it would just be dull.... erm... maybe!
William Rayner, farmer of Polstead, married Mary Archer in 1773 in Fingringhoe. I've got two baptisms in Wivenhoe for a William, son of John and Sarah Rayner - I think the first one died and the second was baptised in 1751 (I would check but Ancestry is being slow and annoying this evening so I can't get to my notes...).
To go back to the business of the link between my family and the Coopers, the last Wade child born in Essex was baptised in 1773 - the next children are born in Polstead. So the link might be William Rayner, hiring Edward Wade. It just seems a rather big coincidence with the year being the same, too.
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William Rayner, farmer of Polstead, married Mary Archer in 1773 in Fingringhoe. I've got two baptisms in Wivenhoe for a William, son of John and Sarah Rayner - I think the first one died and the second was baptised in 1751 (I would check but Ancestry is being slow and annoying this evening so I can't get to my notes...).
Oops, me not reading my tree correctly this time. You are correct, they had two, the second though baptised 9 March 1750. I don't have online trees so can't use ancestry as an excuse for not reading it properly. :-X
To go back to the business of the link between my family and the Coopers, the last Wade child born in Essex was baptised in 1773 - the next children are born in Polstead. So the link might be William Rayner, hiring Edward Wade. It just seems a rather big coincidence with the year being the same, too.
Seems a definate probability and would explain why Edward Wade moved there. I don't generally believe in coincidences as I've found many turned out to be for a reason. ;D
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Hi to Smudwisk & Helvissa,
I seem to have stired a pot into great activity ! Thanks for all the info, I now must get to visit some of these places.
Has anyone followed "my Judith" dau. of Thomas Cooper (d. 1771) to where she m. John Woodruffe and where her dau. Alice Woodruffe (abt 1768 - 1864) m. Robert Daniel jun. of Falkenham, Suffolk. His father, Robert Daniel sen. of Harkstead, Suffolk, (abt 1724 - 1806), is my real brick wall, for many years I have been unable to find where he came from. Much of this story is told on two altar tomb memorials in the churchyard at Ramsey, Essex which involve Woodruffs, Woodthorpes, Daniels and Colletts
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I am following the Woodruffe family forward but as Robert Daniel isn't a blood relative of mine, I'm not researching that line backwards. I'm assuming Robert Daniel was the brother of Elizabeth Daniel who married John Woodruffe of Ramsey in 1780 at Stutton. I would imagine the John baptised to John and Mary Woodruffe in Ramsey in Sept 1782 is their son (as Uncle Thomas mentions nephew John son of brother John in his Will of 1806) and the parish clerk entered the wrong mother's name. As John appears to have died in October 1781, I suppose John was baptised late. Thomas Woodruffe's 1806 Will is interesting, I'm assuming he cohabitated with his brother's widow and had two sons Thomas and Daniel as both baptisms list father as Thomas and the Will doesn't specifically state they are his children but he names them his main beneficiaries. The Ramsey marriage register is a bit sparse at that time but I would have imagine if he'd married his brother's widow, he would have referred to her as his wife rather than Elizabeth Woodruffe daughter of Robert Daniel of Harkstead. ;)
There are several Daniel families in Suffolk, I've one in the west of the county which has been causing me the same headache for many years as they married in Suffolk, moved to Hertfordshire, and then a couple of daughters married back in Suffolk. I've yet to work out who the paternal grandparents were on that line. :-\
Yes I've seen a monumental inscription of the two tombs from Ramsey but sadly there aren't any photographs online anywhere of them ....
It's interesting the number of families who did move from Boxford and Polstead to the Harwich/Dovercourt/Ramsey area over the centuries, I've other lines that made the move too. Seems to have been a popular place. ;D
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(Smudwhisk - as a total aside: do you anything about the Rayners in Polstead/Boxford? I'd be intrigued to see if William Rayner, farmer of Polstead, who got married at Fingringhoe, had any children. I wouldn't be surprised if he's a son of Sarah Cooper's from her first marriage to John Rayner, the surgeon. I've got a Samuel Rayner (who worked *as* a cooper, just to confuse things) who turns up as an executor in letters of admon for one of my ancestors, and it's plausible we might have yet another of these random connections between my family and yours, if Samuel turns out to be Wm's son.)
Hi Helvissa
Had a quick look in both Polstead and Boxford from 1773 and couldn't see any sign of any baptisms to William and Mary Rayner. It's possible they may have been elsewhere, will need to take a closer look through the parishes to see if there is any sign of them. :-\
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Thank you!
I think the Suffolk Family History Society are now quite close to completing their transcriptions for that period, so I might ask them if they have any....
HANG ON! Just typed that with a FindMyPast rolling round in the background - burial at Polstead for William Rayner aged zero on 13th April 1774 (National Burial Index). There's a couple of Rayners coming up - Jemima, born 1764, buried 1764, so maybe it's a different family....
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At the risk of being exceptionally annoying and reviving this very long, old thread... I've just discovered something!
The name Davall pops up in connection with the Cooper family, and I wondered why. Well... The Davall family were in Ramsey (there's even a road named after them - Davall Close). Thomas Davall, MP for from 1695 to 1708 lived there, at Michaelstowe Hall. I've been transcribing Ramsey's register, and in October 1717, there's a marriage between William Whittaker and Priscilla Davall. No marital statuses are given, but I suspect Priscilla is the widow of John Davall of Ramsey, who died in September 1716. He mentions Priscilla in his will. The connection - besides the name Whittaker - is that in his will, John Davall left Priscilla (amongst other things) his copyhold property, Fingringhoe Hay Farm. He left his daughter Mary some other property in Fingringhoe called "Wealds at the Grosse".
So... it's a useful fact, I think, and shows at least one way how the Whittakers were connected with Fingringhoe.
Someone called John Davall is the witness of Mary Whittaker's marriage in 1755, in Ramsey, to Thomas Cooper, and her great-grandson (born 1836) was called Thomas Davall Cooper. Mary Whittaker could be a daughter of William and Priscilla, making John, the witness to her marriage, her half-brother (a John Davall, son, is mentioned in John Davall senior's will). Or if she was William's daughter from his first marriage (if he had one) then John Davall jnr was her stepbrother. A Mary Cooper is mentioned in the will of John Davall of Ramsey, which was written in 1758, as his niece.
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Hhm, interesting, does look likely that's where the Davall name came from in the Cooper family.
Mary Whitaker's grandson was also Thomas Duvall Cooper, baptised 1786 in Fingringhoe, son of Thomas and Susanna nee Salmon. He's the one with the "natural son" Thomas Cooper Keeble mentioned in his Will. ;D
Descendants of that Cooper family were quite fond of using surnames as middle names, even if they went back several generations. My line particularly were fond of it, although I'm still struggling to confirm a few of the surnames, but they don't relate to the Cooper family.
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Helvissa, I suspect you've probably already picked this up but I see Sarah Waynman nee Cooper left an Archdeaconry of Colchester Will proven in 1763. Need to find her burial, no doubt in Colchester, sometime before Jul 1763.
Interesting Will of John Oakley of Stanway 1775, I think he's probably the son of Samuel and Elizabeth nee Cooper because of the names of his children - they include Samuel, Margaret and Judith. He's probably the John Oakley baptised at Polstead in 1745 but the family obviously moved back to Essex.
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Hello again,
I don't think this was one I ordered, actually, so it's handy it's been digitised! I've just checked and given that the will was written on 16th April 1763 and proved on 25th July 1763, then she is presumably the Sarah Waynman buried at St. Leonard's on 3rd May 1763. I wonder why she didn't leave anything to her son, William Rayner? Then again, I think he benefited under his father's will and his maternal grandfather's will too in the end. Sarah's second husband, William Waynman, had died intestate, so that Colchester property might have been his (although saying that, she was living in Colchester when she got married, so it could've been hers).
Do we know who the witnesses are? Anne Waynman could be Sarah's stepdaughter (baptised in Manningtree in 1741, married William Winch in Fingringhoe in 1765). James Waynman - could that be the chap who turns up in other records, as (I seem to recall) a solicitor who lives in Colchester? Him witnessing Sarah's will might suggest there is a link after all between all the Waynmans.
Also I've got a note on William Waynman's entry on my tree for the marriage in 1751 in Colchester of William Waynman, widow, and Mary Whitaker, widow. I wonder if there's any link there? Is that the same bloke? (in which case Mary died soon afterwards as William and Sarah married in Fingringhoe in 1753. He was of Manningtree and she was of Colchester).
I think you could be right about the Oakley will - there's a note in my tree for 1767 for him saying "Possibly resident in Stanway. His grandfather's will written in 1767 leaves his mother a messuage in Stanway, occupied by John Oakley, husbandman. The will states John will inherit it on his mother's death."
The 1733 will of Samuel Oakley of Stanway is presumably John's paternal grandfather? Mentioning his eldest son Samuel (John's dad?) and another son called John (who had a son called John too. Just in case we didn't have enough people called John Oakley turning up here). Oooh dear, his daughter Anne "recently married to John Barrell without my consent" gets just one shilling!
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News just in... thanks to the Beneficiaries Index, I've just been reading Mary Winch's 1790 will. She is the granddaughter of William Waynman (1713-1762), daughter of his first daughter (from Eliza, his wife wife), Ann. Ann (1741-1804) married William Winch in 1765, then after his death, she married John Southernwood. Mary mentions her aunt and uncle Simon and Rebecca Waters - they were married in Wivenhoe in 1764 and Rebecca's maiden name was "Weyman", which matches her up with William and Eliza's second child, Rebecca Waynman, baptised in Manningtree in 1743. Phew! So that's all of William Waynman's children accounted for, although I can't see what happens to Simon and Rebecca after their marriage and then their later appearance in their niece's will.
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Thanks for the 1763 Sarah Waynman burial, I agree it would seem most likely that was her in light of the probate date of the Will. Its possible son William Rayner doesn't get a mention because of the other bequests he inherited or even she had settled property on him prior to her decease. I have seen that before. Its actually not that uncommon to see Wills where not all surviving children are mentioned. Its frustrating but I suppose if they'd already been given property/money, it would explain their omittence.
I think its highly likely all the Waynman's are related, its not that common a name. Still none the wiser as to who the James Waynman was though.
I think you're probably correct that the Ann Waynman who witnessed the Will is probably the step daughter.
I agree the 1733 Samuel Oakley of Stanway is probably young John's grandfather. Obviously daughter Anne displeased him marrying John Barrell. :-\
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Can't find a copy on SEAX which suggest they don't have the original, but the British Record Society Index of registered Wills has an entry for a Sarah Cock of Colchester widow Will from 1733. I gather from the Essex Beneficiaries Index that she mentions her daughter Margaret Cooper of Finchingfield, son in law Mr Cooper, and granddaughter Sarah. Unless her mother remarried, that tends to suggest that Thomas Cooper of Polstead and Finchingfield, son of Thomas and Elizabeth nee Mash, married a Margaret Cock. I suspect the marriage could well be in the Colchester area, although it would have been nice to have seen the Will in case she held propery elsewhere.
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That's true - can throw you a bit when you think, "Aha, I've found the will - wait, where's Bob?"
I found a will in the Index which wasn't on Seax, but I emailed ERO and they were able to send me a digital copy of the will from the microfilm (I suppose they printed it off first!). So you could do that?
Do you have the marriage of Thomas Cooper and Elizabeth Mash? John Mash married Mary Cardinall (daughter of John Cardinall) and I'm wondering if there's a connection there. (Mary gets a mention in the documents surrounding James Clarkson's estate (http://essexandsuffolksurnames.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/james_clarkson_tendring_1723_1725.pdf)).
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Thomas Cooper and Elizabeth Mash married at Boxford on 10 June 1681. Both died there but where buried at Polstead.
I'll have to add the Sarah Cock widow Will to my "wants" list for now, bit short of spare cash at the moment after my 15 year old fridge died and had to have a new radiator for the car as the other had corroded. :-\
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Thanks! Hmmm... might not be a connection, then.
Oh no, that sounds a bit rubbish!
I've put the Wills Index to more use this morning and I have a possibility raising its head.... Remember how Priscilla Davall, widow of John Davall of Ramsey married William Whittaker there in 1717?
John (died 1716) and Priscilla had several children (at least from wills, I can see John, Thomas, Nathaniel and Mary, and a Daniel appears in Ramsey's register). In his 1730 will, Nathaniel mentions his sister Mary, wife of John Whittaker.
John Davall's 1717 will mentions property in Fingringhoe - some left to Priscilla and some left to Mary. This makes me wonder if John and Mary Whittaker are the parents of Mary Whittaker, born about 1733, who married Thomas Cooper in Ramsey in 1755? The witnesses to Thomas and Mary's marriage were John Davall and Daniel Burr - Mary's niece, Elizabeth (daughter of John Davall jnr), married Daniel Burr. Thomas Cooper and Mary witness the 1762 marriage of Sarah Whittaker to John Tiffin, so perhaps Sarah and Mary were the children of John Whittaker and Mary (née Davall). All we need are some baptisms, but where the heck are they?!
I found the wills in St. Osyth of the Kenerleys (James 1713 and Jane 1717). It looks like Jane had previously been married to a Whittaker - she mentions three sons, John, Randall and William. Not sure if they fit in somewhere yet.
Were John and William related to each other? Maybe Mary married her stepbrother?
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PS: Thomas Cooper and Mary Whittaker's grandson (son of Thomas 1762-1838) was called, of course, Thomas Duvall Cooper. At least, it's spelt "Duvall" in Fingringhoe's register. Might it not be Davall instead?
I keep turning up suggestions that my Elizabeth Cardinall is the daughter of William and Elizabeth Cardinall, baptised in Alresford. William, I'm fairly sure from the James Clarkson documents, is the son of John Cardinall from Tendring. I can't see a marriage for William and Elizabeth Cardinall - so might this be the link? Could Elizabeth be a Whittaker herself? Not a child of John Whittaker and Mary Davall, but perhaps a sister of John Whittaker? Hmm.....
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PPS: forgot to mention this earlier. Thomas Nunn of Great Oakley, yeoman, mentions in his 1716 will his son-in-law William Whitacre. William's daughter Sarah gets a mention, then "the other four children of William Whitacre". Not sure if William is Thomas' stepson, or son of his daughter (there's no "my son-in-law, husband of my daughter..."). He mentions his wife Christian, so I think he must be the Thomas Nunn, widower, who married Christian Isaack of Wix, singlewoman, in 1707 at Great Oakley (damn, I'm glad I transcribed all those registers!). He mentioned son-in-law Richard Baker in his will, and Thomas had been married before Christian - as a widower, he married Hannah Baker in 1689, so could be her son.
So perhaps William Whittaker here is the William who married Priscilla, or one of his sons married Priscilla's daughter? They'll turn up one day, I hope, as long as they didn't get married in one of the parishes with lost registers. :-\
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I agree that Thomas Duvall Cooper's name has probably been corrupted. Not unusual and too big a coincidence that he was given that name.
John Davall's 1717 will mentions property in Fingringhoe - some left to Priscilla and some left to Mary. This makes me wonder if John and Mary Whittaker are the parents of Mary Whittaker, born about 1733, who married Thomas Cooper in Ramsey in 1755? The witnesses to Thomas and Mary's marriage were John Davall and Daniel Burr - Mary's niece, Elizabeth (daughter of John Davall jnr), married Daniel Burr. Thomas Cooper and Mary witness the 1762 marriage of Sarah Whittaker to John Tiffin, so perhaps Sarah and Mary were the children of John Whittaker and Mary (née Davall). All we need are some baptisms, but where the heck are they?!
John Davall whose Will was proven at the PCC in 1760 and who mentions niece Mary Cooper also had a brother Thomas. He mentions Thomas in his Will and brother Thomas has to be the Thomas Davall late of Colchester and now of Ipswich whose Will was proven at the PCC in 1774. He mentions his niece Elizabeth Burr and her children but also Thomas Cooper second son of Thomas Cooper of Fingringhoe and his sister Mary Cooper. Thomas and Mary's mother being Mary Whitaker who died in 1769 so doesn't get a mention. That along with Thomas' brother John's Will tends to confirm that Mary Whitaker wife of Thomas Cooper was the daughter of Mary Davall. Thomas' Will was written in 1771 and had a couple of subsequent Codicils added.
Interestingly Thomas Davall had property in Elmstead called Coopers and Birches according to his Will.
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I keep turning up suggestions that my Elizabeth Cardinall is the daughter of William and Elizabeth Cardinall, baptised in Alresford. William, I'm fairly sure from the James Clarkson documents, is the son of John Cardinall from Tendring. I can't see a marriage for William and Elizabeth Cardinall - so might this be the link? Could Elizabeth be a Whittaker herself? Not a child of John Whittaker and Mary Davall, but perhaps a sister of John Whittaker? Hmm.....
Quite possible, it would explain the use of the Whitaker name in the Wade family.
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John Davall whose Will was proven at the PCC in 1760 and who mentions niece Mary Cooper also had a brother Thomas. He mentions Thomas in his Will and brother Thomas has to be the Thomas Davall late of Colchester and now of Ipswich whose Will was proven at the PCC in 1774. He mentions his niece Elizabeth Burr and her children but also Thomas Cooper second son of Thomas Cooper of Fingringhoe and his sister Mary Cooper. Thomas and Mary's mother being Mary Whitaker who died in 1769 so doesn't get a mention. That along with Thomas' brother John's Will tends to confirm that Mary Whitaker wife of Thomas Cooper was the daughter of Mary Davall. Thomas' Will was written in 1771 and had a couple of subsequent Codicils added.
Interestingly Thomas Davall had property in Elmstead called Coopers and Birches according to his Will.
I think I might go with this theory unless proved otherwise!
Regarding the Wade/Whittaker mystery.... well... still plugging away at that one, but at least we now know where the Whittakers came from.
Interestingly, one of the Davalls sailed with Captain Cook!
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I think you could be right about the Oakley will - there's a note in my tree for 1767 for him saying "Possibly resident in Stanway. His grandfather's will written in 1767 leaves his mother a messuage in Stanway, occupied by John Oakley, husbandman. The will states John will inherit it on his mother's death."
Ooh the Oakleys are getting confusing. The 1775 Will of John Oakley of Stanway mentions his daughter Ann wife of John Oakley of Stanway farmer. John and Ann Oakley nee Oakley had a daughter Mary Cooper Oakley baptised in Stanway in 1777 (their first child baptised in there I've found in 1771).
However, If the John who left the 1775 Will was only born in 1745 he's not going to have a daughter who is married before 1771 so I'm getting very confused. ??? It must be John Oakley born 1745 who married Ann Oakley and was living in Stanway.
Its just rather strange that John Oakley of Stanway whose Will was proven in 1775 had daughters Margaret and Judith and son Samuel, all names that tie in with the Cooper family and Samuel Oakley who married Elizabeth Cooper.
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Just realised that Thomas and Margaret Cooper's daughter Sarah had a daughter baptised Sarah Cock Rayner. Does tend to confirm that Margaret's maiden name was Cock and she was the daughter of Daniel and Sarah Cock. Although Sarah Cock's Will is not on SEAX, there is a Will of a Margaret Cock widow of Colchester who mentions her sister Sarah widow of my brother Daniel Cock and also Sarah's daughter Margaret. Unfortunately while Sarah Cock is buried in Colchester St Leonard, her daughter Margaret didn't marry there. :-\
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After I logged off last night, I remember Sarah Cock Rayner too and wondered if that was a connection. Could well be. She's naming her daughter after her grandma.
John Rayner's family were from Colchester, I think, so maybe that might tie in somehow as well?
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Hello,
I'm a local history researcher in Colchester and I've found two graves side by side at St. Runwalds, which although have different names, must certainly be related. Looking through all the posts on this thread, I'm now confused as to the family relationships. Please could someone assst me please.
What were the occupations of Thomas Waynman, John Marsden and their wives? I'm sure that there is an interesting family story here and I'm curious to know what it might be. The grave stones are rather unusual and decorative so these people are from good well connected families ad going by the decorative writing at the top, were much missed and lamented.
If anyone wants a photo of the grave (you probably already have it) then e-mail me history@interestingincolchester.co.uk and I'll send you a copy.
Also I note that the cooper family all seems to be tied in. There is a grave at St. mary at the walls for a Mary Susanna Cooper, third daughter of Charles and Maria Cooper late of langenhoe who died in 1886. Is Mary connected with the Marsden and wade families or is she not? Any help here would be appreciated.
Thank you.
Alice
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Hi Alice,
Thanks for posting! I've seen a photo of the graves on the Gravestone Photographic Resource (http://www.gravestonephotos.com/public/gravedetails.php?grave=337652&scrwidth=1680) site.
I think some of the family appear in Shani D'Cruze's "Colchester People" ebooks. But here's what I've got:
Thomas Waynman (1755-1796) was a son of William Waynman (1713-1762) and Sarah Cooper (1717-1763). When Thomas married Mary Marsden (1783-?) in 1782, it was by licence. The text on the marriage licence allegation is:
Thomas Waynman of St Runwald's, bachelor, upwards of 21 yrs. Mary Marsden of the sd parish, aged upwards of 19, spinster, a minor, with consent of John Marsden, work-knitter, her natural and lawful father.
I have identified her parents from this (it appears she was born before they moved to Colchester but her many siblings were born after the move from about 1767 onwards) - John Marsden (1740-1796) and Sarah (1741-1814).
Thomas and Mary Waynman had two children, William (1783-1860) who moved to Nottingham and Sarah (1784-?). After Thomas' death in January 1796, Mary put an advert in the Ipswich Journal, saying she was running a millinery shop on Colchester High St.
Mary then married Thomas Nice (1774-1834), ten years her junior, in 1797. Their marriage licence allegation reads:
22 Sep 1797. Thomas NICE, bachelor, linnen-draper of St Peter’s, Colchester, aged upwards of 23 years & Mary WAYNMAN, widow, of St Runwald’s, Colchester. To marry at St Runwald’s, Colchester.
I suppose they were running the drapery/millinery together. An advert for their shop in 1797 places it on the High St opposite the Town Hall. 1811 says they were at no. 29 High St. From paperwork associated with the death of Mary's mother, it's possible Thomas Nice and Mary were living on a farm in Stanway in 1815. Then it appears Thomas was running a shop in London and went bankcrupt in 1817 - possibly. I haven't traced them any further, apart from the fact that Mary buried both her husbands in the same grave but doesn't appear to have been in the grave herself (I've looked through St. Runwald's burial register and can't see any Mary Nice in there).
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Regarding Mary Susannah, daughter of Charles and Maria Cooper of Langenhoe, yes, there is a connection. The Langenhoe Coopers are descended from Thomas Cooper (1723-1782) and Mary Whitaker (1733-1769) - Thomas was the brother of Sarah, who married William Waynman.
Mary Lavinia Susannah Georgiana Cooper (blimey) was born in Langenhoe in 1829. I haven't traced her any further than her birth, though. Thomas Cooper and Mary Whitaker are Mary L. S. G. Cooper's great-grandparents. FreeBMD gives me a Colchester death for a Mary Susannah Cooper in 1856 - I suspect the stone inscription has worn away somewhat.
Does that help? Sort of?!
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As for the Wades, a Sarah Wade witnessed Mary Marsden/Waynman/Nice's second marriage, and the signature looks almost identical to my gt-several times grandmother Sarah Pritchett, who married Edward Wade. Edward's parents are buried right next to Thomas Cooper and Mary Whitaker's grave in Fingringhoe, and loads of Wades ended up with Whitaker as a middle name. I still don't know what the link is, other than that I'm fairly sure Edward's mother, Elizabeth Cardinall, was related to the Cardinalls in the Tendring Hundred. As William Waynman was from Mistley, and Mary Whitaker's mother was a Davall from Ramsey, then I think there must be a link somewhere I can't find it. I don't know the maiden name of Elizabeth Cardinall's mother - that would be a great help and is probably the missing link.
Oh, and a Charles Tiffin witnessed the marriage of Edward Wade's parents - a daughter of Sarah Cooper's first marriage, Mary Rayner, married Charles Tiffin. Again, another connection, but I just don't know at the mo' what it signifies.
I've put together my Wade (http://essexandsuffolksurnames.co.uk/history/the-wade-family/) and Cardinall (http://essexandsuffolksurnames.co.uk/history/the-cardinall-family/) waffle on my website.
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Does that help? Sort of?!
Yes thank you. I did know some of the online resources that you mentioned. I appreciate the Cooper connection als. I'll check out the 1872 transcrription index tomorrow on Mary Susanna Cooper and confirm that and reply properly to you then. Thank you. Alice
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Whoops, I made a mistake!
The daughter of Charles and Maria Cooper that I mentioned before was in Maria Lavinia doodah, rather than Mary.
There's another child called Mary Susannah, born to Charles and Maria Cooper in Langenhoe on 22 August 1842. The burial at St. Mary's-at-the-Walls is of Mary Susanna Cooper, aged 13, on 15th February 1856, which would match up with the child born in 1842.
(to confuse matters, Charles and Maria had another daughter called Mary Matilda in 1841 but she clearly died before the birth of Mary Susannah).
The family was in Langenhoe on the 1841 and 1851 census, then in 1861, Charles is in Lancashire, a widower and retired farmer. Not sure why they moved up there!
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(to confuse matters, Charles and Maria had another daughter called Mary Matilda in 1841 but she clearly died before the birth of Mary Susannah).
Mary Matilda Cooper was buried at Langenhoe on 6 Oct 1841.
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Incidentally, the Colchester Architect James Deane who died in 1765 was another member of the Cooper family of Polstead. His mother was Sarah Cooper whose brother Thomas was the grandfather of Mary Whitaker's husband Thomas Cooper. Sarah and Thomas' sister Anne was my 7x Great Grandmother. Another sister, Judith, married Richard Cockerell of Tollesbury and one of their son in laws was Benjamin Owen one time Rector of Greenstead juxta Colchester. Sarah, Thomas and Judith Cooper's paternal grandparents married in Colchester in 1621, although I've yet to find whether their grandmother was originally from Colchester, but their grandfather was from Suffolk.
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Yup, just found that!
Also one or two of Charles Edmund Cooper's brothers were living in Colchester (at least, that's what it says in the burial register) so that might be why the family ended up there for a bit.
No sign of Charles' wife in Langehoe's burial register. Anyone know when she died? FreeBMD deaths of Maria Cooper between 1851 and 1861 not very promising (Risbridge, Halstead or Subury reg districts)
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Oooh, something juicy! Gets more space in the paper than a suspected poisoning....
Chelmsford Chronicle 4th August 1854.
Charles Cooper jnr charged with wilful damage to Crouch House Farm in Langenhoe, owned by George Frederick Cooper (one of Chas Edmund's brothers) and Thomas May (as mortgagees). Chas Edmund had inherited Crouch House from his father, Thomas, and pulled down the old house, replacing it with a new one. That house built by Chas Edmund is now a grade II listed building - here's a photo of it: (http://yourlocalweb.s3-website-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/19/51/crouch-house-farm-192386.jpg)
Chas jnr presumably annoyed and so turned up and broke the door of the carriage house. Tut-tut!
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Ooh naughty boy. ;D I suspect he got more space 'cos it was a bit embarrassing for the family. ;)
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Thomas and Mary Waynman had two children, William (1783-1860) who moved to Nottingham and Sarah (1784-?).
Sarah Waynman was buried at Colchester St Mary at the Walls 4 March 1842 under her second married name of Bunnell.
Edit - woops wrong Sarah. The Sarah whose second husband was William Bunnell was Thomas' sister not his daughter. :-X
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Yes, the report said that the chap (a magistrate, I think) was very sad because the family were held in high esteem, so he said Charles should pay 11 shillings damages and costs so that he wouldn't have the pain of prosecuting him! Charles had broken the stable open to put his pony there. There's another story from the same year which was reported in a newspaper in Coventry because it was clearly juicy - the sale of things from Charles Edmd's farm. Several of the horses that were going to be sold just vanished a few days before the auction (ahem cough methinks young Charles may have had a hand in that) and a solicitor from Ipswich turned up and said the sale wasn't legal and none of the prospective bidders could get onto the property because all the fences were locked!
Thanks for that about Sarah marrying. I didn't realise she had. And thanks also for the thread going back to the 1600s!
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Thanks for that about Sarah marrying. I didn't realise she had.
Sorry got the Sarah Waynman's muddled up, I've edited my post.
Sarah daughter of Thomas and Mary nee Marsden is possibly the one buried 13 Jan 1796 at Colchester St Botolph, but nothing to definately confirm this so may not be her. The fact her father was buried in St Runwald a few day's earlier does make me think it isn't her though.
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Mary Ann Mansfield, daughter of James Mansfield and Mary Tiffen, married John Spracklin at Colchester St Nicholas on 27 November 1810. The witnesses were her stepmother Sarah Mansfield nee Farran and Roger Nunn. They had several children baptised at the Lion Walk Independent Meeting House and Mary Ann was buried there in January 1837.
I think I've got that bit correct. ;D ;D Mind you its getting late ....
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Hello,
Thank you for your replies over the past 24 hours. Very much appreciated.
There are some 'Cooper graves' at St. Mary at the walls Church in Colchester, which the inscriptions are as follows:
In memory of Mary Susanna, third daughter of Charles and Maria, late of Langenhoe, who died 7th February 1836 aged 13 years. Deeply and deservingly lamented.
In memory of William Cooper who died 6th June 1815 aged 41 years. Also of John Cooper who died 1th January 1816 aged 49 years.
In memory of John Cooper who died 6th November 1794 aged 61 years, Also Mary his wife who died March 6th 1796 aged 63 years.
NOTES: Attached is a photo of Mary who died aged 13. Not the best, due to the light but will try and get a better one if you ask me. Does anyone have a copy of the death certificate to see how Mary died?
There is also a grave to a few Bunnells/Mansfields.
Beneath are deposited the remains of Samuel Farran who departed this life June 5th 1799 aged 45 years. Also of Sarah Bunnell, relect of William Bunnell Esq.. and previously wife of the above who died February 26th 1842 aged 87 years. Also of Sarah Mansfield their daughter who died January 30th 1861 aged 86 years.
Not sure on the location of the grave, but would have a look if asked.
At the Baptist Chapel in Colchester:
There was a box grave for the following which no longer exists. The graveyard was cleared many years ago to make a car park! (of all things!!)
In Memory of Benjamin Nice who died February 10th 1837 aged 86 years, Blessed are the dear that dies in the lord. In Memory of Mary wife of Benjamin Nice who died April 13th 1818 aged 70 years. Also two of their children who died in infancy.
Going back to the graves at St. Runwalds of John Marsden his wife Sarah and Charles frost who lie next to Thomas Waynman and Mary Nice and another Thomas Waynman who died 1850. Does anyone know their cause of deaths or family stories which may connect them other than marriages?
Thank you for your replies and I hope this may be of help to some of you.
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Thanks Alice for the MI information and the photo of Mary Susanna's grave. I can't unfortunately help with Mary Susanna's cause of death as I don't have the death certificate.
Most of the research I have on the Cooper family descendants is based on parish registers, newspapers, Wills, etc, so no "stories" as such are available.
I would be very interested in seeing a photograph of the Bunnell/Mansfield grave if its not too much trouble for you to be able to take one please. Also if it would be at all possible to get a better one of Mary Susanna Cooper's grave, I'd be very grateful.
Thanks again.
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I would be very interested in seeing a photograph of the Bunnell/Mansfield grave if its not too much trouble for you to be able to take one please. Also if it would be at all possible to get a better one of Mary Susanna Cooper's grave, I'd be very grateful.
I'll certainly retake the photos of Mary Susanna Cooper's grave when I next visit on Sunday. As for the Bunnell/Mansfield grave I would have to locate this as of would be one of those which are now unreadable, but will try for you.
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I'll certainly retake the photos of Mary Susanna Cooper's grave when I next visit on Sunday. As for the Bunnell/Mansfield grave I would have to locate this as of would be one of those which are now unreadable, but will try for you.
Thanks Alice, much appreciated. ;D
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Attached is a better photo of Mary Cooper's Grave. The stone is in a difficult part of the cemetery under a tree and the back light will be dominant in any photo, so this one is as good as I can ge it. The stone is very charred and datk anyway which doesn't help.
For this grave:
There is also a grave to a few Bunnells/Mansfields.
Beneath are deposited the remains of Samuel Farran who departed this life June 5th 1799 aged 45 years. Also of Sarah Bunnell, relect of William Bunnell Esq.. and previously wife of the above who died February 26th 1842 aged 87 years. Also of Sarah Mansfield their daughter who died January 30th 1861 aged 86 years.
The other attached photo is a general area as to where the grave is most likely located. There are several graves where the inscriptions are unreadable but other graves near by are of the same time. Sorry but this is the best I can do on both of these. I hope they are of some help and use.
If anyone has a death certificate for Mary Ssannah Cooper and can shed an light on how she died aged 13 I would be interested.
Thank you.
For other interesting little history bits on Colchester please look at: http://www.interestingincolchester.co.uk/
where I can be contacted directly.
It's been a pleasure making a contribution to this post and trying to help.
Alice
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second image
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Hi Alice,
I'll link to your website on mine (www.essexandsuffolksurnames.co.uk)
Helen (named after St. Helena as I was born in Colchester!)
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Thanks Alice, much appreciated. ;D
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I'll link to your website on mine (www.essexandsuffolksurnames.co.uk)
Helen (named after St. Helena as I was born in Colchester!)
Helen
Thank you and I will return the link. If I can help you with anything in the furure please ask.
In the mean time you can read all about St. Helena and Colchester here.
http://www.interestingincolchester.co.uk/the-story-of-st-helena/
Alice
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Well as you come to mention it... I'd love to see a photo of the Lingwood's plaque inside St. Mary's-at-the-Walls. I used to go to the Colchester Arts Centre when I was a teenager, before I knew that the Lingwoods were my relatives! Sarah is my 6 x gt-aunt.
From here: https://stmaryatthewalls.wordpress.com/
On the South wall, to the right of the fire exit is a white marble tablet.
It reads:
SACRED TO THE MEMORY OF
JOHN LINGWOOD
WHO DIED 20TH MARCH 1834
AGED 60 YEARS
ALSO OF
SARAH WHITTAKER LINGWOOD
(RELICT OF THE ABOVE)
WHO DIED 10TH JULY 1844
AGED 71 YEARS
THEIR BELOVED REMAINS ARE DEPOSITED
IN A VAULT IN THE CHURCHYARD
NEAR THIS SPOT
(I suppose there is a box tomb in the churchyard with their names on it?)
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Helen,
I've not found his grave yet but will ave a look next time i'm there. Attached is a photo of John Lingwood. Wall plaque to follow.
Alice
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photo attached
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Thank you so much for the photo of the wall plaque! The number of gigs I've been at and that was hovering overhead!
I've seen the portrait before - he looks so pleased with himself. ;)
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This is really for Smudwhisk but I thought I'd post it on the forum in case others find it interesting. It's also now evidence that Smudwhisk and I are in fact related to each other after all.
As mentioned, there seemed to be a connection between the Wade/Cardinall family and the Cooper/Whittaker/Tiffin family, but I couldn't work out what it was. I have Edward Wade marrying Elizabeth Cardinall in 1767, and as well as the family using Cardinall as a middle name, they also like to use Whittaker, often with the first name Sarah (so you get Sarah Whittaker Wade, in fact, the lady whose name is on the plaque in the photo above). Why was this happening? And why were they witnessing each other's marriages all the time? What was the link?
Completely by accident, researching something else, I was reading through Theobald wills at ERO. The will of Anthony Theobald of St Osyth, written in 1743, mentions only three people - Martha Batterham (who he left most of his possessions to) and his granddaughter, Elizabeth Carnal wife of William Carnal. Now, it seems that Elizabeth who married Edward was the daughter of William & Elizabeth Cardinall of Alresford. After a lot of research into the Cardinall family, time and time again, their surname is misspelt as Carnal - so I think it's likely that Anthony Theobald's granddaughter is the mother of Elizabeth Cardinall who married Edward Wade (she was born in the early 1740s, so Wm & Elizabeth would've been married by the time Anthony Theobald wrote his will).
More digging into the Theobald family. The will of Anthony Theobald jnr of Great Clacton was written in 1721. He mentions his wife Sarah, his daughter Elizabeth and his father Anthony (so that ties him in with the 1743 will). More digging.... Anthony Theobald and Sarah Whitaker married in Great Clacton in 1719. A child of Anthony Theobald was baptised there in 1720 (unnamed, but I think we can suppose it's Elizabeth) and then he writes his will a year later. The will was proved in 1722, but I can't see a burial for him anywhere yet.
So by chance, I seem to have taken Elizabeth Cardinall's family back. Her mother was originally Elizabeth Theobald, and her grandmother was Sarah Whitaker - hence the name "Sarah Whitaker" being chosen for so many babies.
But remember there's all those connections with the Davall family. Well......
John Whittakers married Mary Stephens in Tendring in 1729. Mary was a widow. This seems to be Mary Davall - her first husband being Anastasius Stephens. She had been born in Ramsey in about 1698 and her husband died in 1722, only a year after their marriage. John Whittakers, Mary's second husband, was from St Osyth. In 1731, they baptise their a daughter - Mary. This ties in with Mary Whittaker, who married Thomas Cooper in Ramsey in 1755 (and bear in mind, Thomas and Mary had a son called John Whittaker Cooper!). The only guide we have for Mrs Cooper's date of birth is her age on the tomb in Fingringhoe - aged 36 in 1769. This is two years out for the baptism in 1731, but I wouldn't be surprised if 38 has worn away and can be read now as 36.
We assumed that Sarah Whittaker who married John Tiffin in Fingringhoe in 1762 was Mary Whittaker/Cooper's sister. Not unreasonable to suppose this, and Mary and Thomas Cooper are the witnesses for the marriage. However.... when I looked at the Whittakers in St Osyth, I spotted a Thomas Whitaker. His will written in Feb 1739/40 says that he has a daughter called Sarah, a son called William, a brother called John and a wife called Sarah [the wife possibly remarried in 1741, to John Dean, in Weeley]. There is a baptism in St Osyth for Sarah, daughter of Thomas & Sarah Whitaker in 1733, which would make her about 29 on marrying John Tiffin.
Going further back, there's more Whitakers in St Osyth. William & Sarah Whitaker start their brood in 1695. Of their eight children, it seems that only three of them made it to adulthood. Sarah, born in 1699, Thomas born in 1700 and John born in 1703.
I don't think it's unreasonable at all to suppose the following:
- Sarah, born in 1699, married Anthony Theobald in Gt Clacton in 1719, and is the mother of Elizabeth Theobald who went on to marry William Cardinall
- Thomas, born in 1700, is the father of Sarah Whittaker, who married John Tiffin in 1762
- John, born in 1703, married Mary Davall, and their daughter Mary married Thomas Cooper
This would explain a lot - they were all cousins, descended from William & Sarah Whitaker in St Osyth. I've had all this right under my nose for ages, but it was only because I was looking at Theobald wills by chance that I fell over the link between the Cardinalls and Theobalds, which then linked me to the Whitakers. Phew!
I know none of this is 100% for sure, but at the moment, I feel this theory best fits the facts as they currently exist. No doubt something could turn up which would flip this all over and kick it in the dirt, but for now.....
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In other words, that last post of mine there answers the question that I came to ask on this forum several years ago!!!! Thank goodness for ERO scanning all their wills and making it so easy and quick to do this sort of lucky dip research.
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ALSO!!! Look what I just found, which provides another handy link....
I've got to get to TNA now and check this out.
Whitaker v Theoball (http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C10407962).
Plaintiffs: William Whitaker, yeoman of Chich St Osythe, Essex.
Defendants: Anthony Thoeball senior.
Date of bill (or first document): 1727
This was five or six years after Anthony jnr's death, and a year after a possible remarriage for Sarah Whitaker (to William Cary). Was William protesting about something on behalf of his daughter? Or is this just coincidence and was some other issue? DEFINITELY going to check this one out....
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I've made a little mistake - John and Mary Whittaker married in 1729 in Tendring. They had a son John in 1730 who was buried a few months after his baptism. Then a daughter called Mary in 1731 - baptised in St Osyth and buried a few months later in Tendring. Then another daughter called Mary in 1733 (which would match up with the age at death of Mary Cooper in Fingringhoe, without the numbers being weathered) in Tendring, and then a daughter called Susan in 1735 (who could be the Susannah Whittaker buried in Fingringhoe in 1738? There's nothing necessarily to tie John and Mary to St Osyth or Tendring after Susan's 1735 baptism).
Something else to point out - William and Sarah Whitaker's last child was baptised in St Osyth in 1711. I can't see a burial for any Sarah Whitakers there, however, in 1717, Mary Davall's mother Priscilla married a man called William Whitaker. It's not a completely bananas idea that Priscilla's new husband was William Whitaker of St Osyth, and that in marrying John Whittaker, Mary Davall had married her stepbrother.
ANYWAY. Here's a simplified family tree that illustrates what I've been waffling on about..... and an explanation here (http://essexandsuffolksurnames.co.uk/history/the-cardinall-family/william-cardinall-of-alresford-1706-1749/theobald-in-clacton-and-whittaker-in-st-osyth/).
(http://essexandsuffolksurnames.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/whittaker-theobald-davall-cooper-tiffin-wade-tree.png)
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Wonderful piece of sleuthing Helen (or should I say cousin in law ;D), I agree it definitely looks like you've cracked it and definitely explains the use of the Whitaker surname as a middle name through the generations. I read your initial posts earlier on my smartphone but not easy to reply so decided to wait until could access my laptop.
Incidentally, do you know if there are any children to John Tiffen and Sarah Whitaker? Just wondering whether the Charles Tiffin who married Mary Rayner (the niece of Thomas Cooper who married Mary Whitaker) could be one of their sons as he was of Layer de la Haye when he married Mary in Fingringhoe in 1763? I suspect the problem there will be the missing Layer de la Haye registers, although I don't currently have a SEAX subscription.
Its amazing you how useful Wills can be, another perfect example. ;)
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I'm glad you agree! :)
I haven't found one, but I know what you mean. It certainly seems likely that Charles Tiffen has something to do with John & Sarah Tiffen. I think you may be right - that we'll never really know because the Layer-de-la-Haye registers are lost (in a fire, tragically!). I've tried looking for wills, but nothing's really come up. But as we can see from what I've fallen over in the last couple of days, never say never - you don't know what clue is waiting for you!
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Regarding the Tiffins, I've just checked what I've got in my tree. The 1741/2 will of Thomas Tiffin of Layer-de-la-Haye (http://essexandsuffolksurnames.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/thomas_tiffin_will_1741_1742.pdf) led me to Earls Colne, and the mighty Earls Colne Database has the baptisms of Thomas' children by his wife Anne. Amongst those children was John Tiffin, baptised 1690, buried 1752. His wife was Sarah (maiden name currently unknown as I haven't found their marriage yet).
There were eight children of John and Sarah. There's a baptism for a son John in 1720, but he'd be too old to be Sarah Whittaker's husband (he's 30 on the marriage licence in 1762. Of course, the age on the marriage licence might not be accurate). There is a gap though in the baptisms of John & Sarah's children in Earls Colne, about 1732, which might mean that Sarah Whittaker's husband is their son.
One of their sons was Charles Tiffin, baptised Feb 1736 according to the ECD (I suppose they mean 1735/6), and I think he's the husband of Mary Rayner, and was the witness of Edward Wade and Elizabeth Cardinall's marriage. But the very fact that he's connected in that way, makes me wonder if John Tiffin is his brother (or cousin? After all all Charles was the grandson of Thomas Tiffin of Layer-de-la-Haye).
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Hi
I’m researching Joseph Theobold/Theobald from Fingringhoe who married Mary Wells in 1799 in Abberton. Helvissa, I saw that you had looked at some Theobald wills and wondered if you could shed any light on the Theobald family. I am also trying to find evidence that they are the parents of Clarissa Theobald born c 1817 Mersea Isle, Peldon. Any help very gratefully received.
Thanks