RootsChat.Com
Some Special Interests => Heraldry Crests and Coats of Arms => Topic started by: marymog on Sunday 06 October 13 01:16 BST (UK)
-
good day
I am researching a certain family name, and they have a good few listings in the old books about coats of arms. These arms first showed up In the time of Edward III.(1312-1377), according to an old book, and each listing in the general armoury gives the same shield, but with different bits and bobs attached, like crescents, and a different motto here and there. Does the same shield each time, mean the same ancestors, or would it just mean the same name??(its an uncommon name)
-
The heraldic device (in England from the 17th century) consists of —
(a) the arms i.e. the shield and the devices upon it;
(b) the helmet;
(c) the lambrequin or mantling;
(d) the torse or wreath;
(e) the crest;
(f) the motto.
Prior to the 17th century achievements did not necessarily contain a crest or a motto.
In addition the following may also be possessed—
(g) supporters;
(h) a compartment;
(i) a cri-de-guerre;
(j) a standard;
(k) a badge;
(l) an augmentation.
Plus various other indicators of a knight’s order.
The shape of the shield is down to the wearer.
The helmet depends on the status of the wearer
There is no ownership or prior claim to any particular motto and it may be dropped or changed at pleasure.
Supporters are granted knights and peers for life or with hereditary limitation.
In addition it should be noted despite what many may claim marks of cadency have never been required in English heraldry though labels and other differencing was often used.
Cheers
Guy
P.S. With regard to the “ownership” of an achievement it falls roughly halfway between being personal and being territorial or “belonging to the land”.
This being due to the way grants of arms originated because a family owned land.
-
Hi Guy
Thanks for your reply, but I still don't understand, I have googled myself silly on this subject. I just would like to ascertain why two families, one living in Scotland (the ancestor escaped there, fought with Robert bruce and received lands up there as reward(according to their family legend) and one family from Suffolk being knighted once or twice back in history, lastly by Charles 11, would use the exact same shield, but with different things added around it.
tks Mary
-
Hi Guy
Thanks for your reply, but I still don't understand, I have googled myself silly on this subject. I just would like to ascertain why two families, one living in Scotland (the ancestor escaped there, fought with Robert bruce and received lands up there as reward(according to their family legend) and one family from Suffolk being knighted once or twice back in history, lastly by Charles 11, would use the exact same shield, but with different things added around it.
tks Mary
You may have answered your own question. Arms in Scotland and arms in England are controlled by completely seperate bodies under different rules. There is thus nothing to stop the same shield being used on both sides of the border. The family that fled north was probably granted the "family" arms in Scotland.
-
These marks are the differencing mentioned by Guy. They are often marks of cadency ie. given to younger sons (& eldest son whilst the father is still alive). They would normally then pass down the line of the respective son. It may be assumed there is a common ancestor with the original up differenced arms
Steve
-
Hi Guy
Thanks for your reply, but I still don't understand, I have googled myself silly on this subject. I just would like to ascertain why two families, one living in Scotland (the ancestor escaped there, fought with Robert bruce and received lands up there as reward(according to their family legend) and one family from Suffolk being knighted once or twice back in history, lastly by Charles 11, would use the exact same shield, but with different things added around it.
tks Mary
You may have answered your own question. Arms in Scotland and arms in England are controlled by completely seperate bodies under different rules. There is thus nothing to stop the same shield being used on both sides of the border. The family that fled north was probably granted the "family" arms in Scotland.
Thanks Edlin
If somebody in Scotland applied for a coat of arms, and used the same shield, as that one in England, then would that mean that in Scotland he could just pick any old shield, or would he have to have proof of ancestry to the original one.
you may find my questions a bit dumb(sorry), but I am very new to this, and all the different terms confuse me, try as I may to understand them :-[
tks mary
-
These marks are the differencing mentioned by Guy. They are often marks of cadency ie. given to younger sons (& eldest son whilst the father is still alive). They would normally then pass down the line of the respective son. It may be assumed there is a common ancestor with the original up differenced arms
Steve
Hi Steve
is differencing "In addition the following may also be possessed" list?
sorry I am not up on all these terms, :-[
mary
-
If somebody in Scotland applied for a coat of arms, and used the same shield, as that one in England, then would that mean that in Scotland he could just pick any old shield, or would he have to have proof of ancestry to the original one.
you may find my questions a bit dumb(sorry), but I am very new to this, and all the different terms confuse me, try as I may to understand them :-[
tks mary
If someone applies for a coat of arms that is not registered as being or having been used by someone else then it will simply be checked as conforming to the rules. In most cases an English coat of arms will fit the Scottish rules and so this would simply have been treated as a new coat of arms.
-
Edlin
So if one of the Scottish family, applied for arms in England, they would have had to have been from the same ancestors as the existing family who held the arms in England.?? is this correct?
I think im understanding it now....thank you for being patient with me
mary
-
Hi Steve
is differencing "In addition the following may also be possessed" list?
sorry I am not up on all these terms, :-[
mary
[/quote]
No -these are all in addition to the basic shield (such as the lion & unicorn on the English arms - they are supporters.) Look at Prince Charles arms - easy on the internet. They are differenced from the Queen's by a bar across the top of the shield
-
Hi Guy
Thanks for your reply, but I still don't understand, I have googled myself silly on this subject. I just would like to ascertain why two families, one living in Scotland (the ancestor escaped there, fought with Robert bruce and received lands up there as reward(according to their family legend) and one family from Suffolk being knighted once or twice back in history, lastly by Charles 11, would use the exact same shield, but with different things added around it.
tks Mary
From your reply I suggest you are discussing Scottish heraldry rather than English heraldry I described.
Robert the Bruce 1274-1329, I assume the first ancestor received lands after the Battle of Bannockburn 1314.
The second could have been rewarded by Charles II between 1649 and 1651 when Charles was recognised as King of Great Britain & Ireland by the Scottish parliament. However not by the English Interregnum or Commonwealth led by Oliver Cromwell.
Scottish Heraldry abides by different rules than English Heraldry and requires marks of cadency and differencing
It should also be noted that Scottish Heraldry is based on the assumtion that all those who share the same surname are in some way related, no matter how distantly.
If indeed the achievements are Scottish there is a further problem in that the first Scottish armorial dates to 1508. That is not to say that Scottish Heraldry did not begin until that date but the records of it do not exist prior to that date.
Cheers
Guy
-
Hi Guy
Thanks for your reply, but I still don't understand, I have googled myself silly on this subject. I just would like to ascertain why two families, one living in Scotland (the ancestor escaped there, fought with Robert bruce and received lands up there as reward(according to their family legend) and one family from Suffolk being knighted once or twice back in history, lastly by Charles 11, would use the exact same shield, but with different things added around it.
tks Mary
From your reply I suggest you are discussing Scottish heraldry rather than English heraldry I described.
Robert the Bruce 1274-1329, I assume the first ancestor received lands after the Battle of Bannockburn 1314.
The second could have been rewarded by Charles II between 1649 and 1651 when Charles was recognised as King of Great Britain & Ireland by the Scottish parliament. However not by the English Interregnum or Commonwealth led by Oliver Cromwell.
Scottish Heraldry abides by different rules than English Heraldry and requires marks of cadency and differencing
It should also be noted that Scottish Heraldry is based on the assumtion that all those who share the same surname are in some way related, no matter how distantly.
If indeed the achievements are Scottish there is a further problem in that the first Scottish armorial dates to 1508. That is not to say that Scottish Heraldry did not begin until that date but the records of it do not exist prior to that date.
Cheers
Guy
Hi Guy
sorry for confusing you, my mistake The English one was knighted in 1642.(got my kings confused must have been the Charles 1) But that family had arms already, from what I can understand of it.
The Scottish ones didnt claim arms until 1792 and 1816, and later, but they were all descended from the same family of the one who fought in Bannockburn.
mary
-
Would you consider giving the name? There may be a reason for the similarity of the arms, but without the name, it's difficult to come up with suggestions for you to consider.
Nell
-
Would you consider giving the name? There may be a reason for the similarity of the arms, but without the name, it's difficult to come up with suggestions for you to consider.
Nell
Hi Nell,
Unless there is anybody who would like to help me by PM, I really don't want to put the name where it will come up on a search engine at this phase of my research.
regards
Mary