RootsChat.Com
Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Wicklow => Topic started by: beregan on Sunday 13 October 13 07:55 BST (UK)
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have hit a wall tracing my great grand mother annie crowley. born 1866 little bray co wicklow, father richard crowley as given on her marriage cert,his occupation given as mill wright, she married matt dunne on 28 september 1890 in graiguemanagh co kilkenny. died april 1961, family lore says she had no contact with her own family after her marriage as she married a catholic. yet on all census she gives her religion as r.c. very confused at this stage,
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While birthplace is stated as Wicklow in 1911...
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Kilkenny/Graiguemanagh/High_Street/529966/
...it is stated as Kilkenny in 1901...
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Kilkenny/Graiguenamanagh/Barrow_Lane/1453206/
Why do you place her birth as 1866 'little bray co wicklow', do you have other info you haven't posted?
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It's quite possible she converted to Catholicism after her mariage or that whoever filled out the census forms just listed all members of the household as Catholic.
Is this the family in 1901? If so, Annie is 31 years old so born c1870 not 1866- and born Kilkenny:
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Kilkenny/Graiguenamanagh/Barrow_Lane/1453206
1911 gives her as born Wicklow but age 41 so still born c1870-
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Kilkenny/Graiguemanagh/High_Street/529966
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sometimes when viewing the original census returns you get a little bit more info as the 1901 census says born Wexford.
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I presume you might be basing her birth from age given at death.
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sometimes when viewing the original census returns you get a little bit more info as the 1901 census says born Wexford.
Both gaffy and I have found a 1901 census record which gives birthplace as Wicklow (both on transcript and original). Have you found something different? if so, please post the link here so that we can look. (still waiting for comfirmation from original poster that we are looking at the correct records)
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Kilkenny/Graiguemanagh/High_Street/529966
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai002604186/
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Household return form A for 1901 above shows Wexford as place of birth.
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Household return form A for 1901 above shows Wexford as place of birth.
What 'Household return form A for 1901'? are you looking at a different record? (I posted a link to the one I found- please do the same to see if we are looking at different records).
Here it is again- Wicklow not Wexford-
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai002604186/
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I beg your pardon Aghadowey but i have twice referred to the 1901 census return while you keep referring to the 1911 return.
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Yes 1901 Wexford, 1911 Wicklow.
Look at the hand writing on each, I don't think they were filled in by the same person.
Should be Matthew in each case but I'm not convinced plus the signature on 1901 doesn't seem to match the writing on the form.
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If you check the 1901 census posted by Gaffy
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Kilkenny/Graiguenamanagh/Barrow_Lane/1453206
The place of birth for Ann Dunne is transcribed incorrectly should be Wexford per household form - I think this is the point Dathai is making.
annclare
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Yes, apologies, I stand corrected. However, it would have been much easier of the link to the census image was posted in the first place.
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ah sure dont we all make mistrakes.
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Wow you lot are really quick off the mark.annie crowley lived with my grandparents for years before she died,my mother and her sibling (her grandchildren)all remember her telling them she was born in little bray .lt ls because of this i said she was born there. There is a mystery which i would love to solve,she spoke of being cut off from her family because of religion. A tale my grand dad passed on said that before she married a parcel arrived with a noose in it and a note saying if the wedding went ahead she was dead to her family.years later he said a letter came from america telling annie an aunt had left her some money. He pointed to the fire and said she ripped the letter up and threw it in the flames!either they all had very good imaginations or skeletons are rattling in closets.maybe thats why the variations on census forms.i would love to sort truth from fiction
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having gone through every Crowley family for Counties Wicklow and Kilkenny on both 1901 and 1911 census's every single one is Roman Catholic with the exception of two servant girls.
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What do you know about Matthew.
Looking at his jobs makes me think he might have been in the army, a service record would be great.
Could he have been CoI and changed religion to marry Anne but that wasn't enough for her family.
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and the same applies to Wexford all Catholic both 1901 and 1911 with the exception of George Crowley age 80 with family at Tinnashrule,Kilboa ,Wexford in 1901 church of Ireland 1911 Church of England.
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Hello,
there is a family in Tinnashrule (http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Wexford/Kilbora/Tinnashrule/1789198/) who are Church of Ireland but father is George :-\
heywood
sorry - just saw your post
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Family Search Ireland Baptisms and Births 1620 to 1881 shows birth
Matthew Dunne born 7 Dec 1865 to John Dunne and Margaret Fenlon also some siblings David,Sarah ,Patrick and Christopher.at Graigue District,Kilkenny.
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note Matthew's children David,Patrickand John similiar naming pattern.
edit also Maggie [Margaret]
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Just to confuse matters further (from a reliable source who knows the area and was actually there this morning)- "Little Bray is actually was, and as far as I can tell still is, in Co. Dublin. It's the part of the Bray town north of the border which runs down the river Dargle at that point. The area was part of Bray RC parish before about 1864. It was also part of Bray CofI parish."
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Interesting that they did use the name Richard for the youngest son, 1911 census. Richard being Anne's fathers name.
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Just to confuse matters further (from a reliable source who knows the area and was actually there this morning)- "Little Bray is actually was, and as far as I can tell still is, in Co. Dublin. It's the part of the Bray town north of the border which runs down the river Dargle at that point. The area was part of Bray RC parish before about 1864. It was also part of Bray CofI parish."
In that case Could this be a possible,
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FPZS-F4L
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There is also this one :-\
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FRHR-8LR
Don't think these are correct- they were a Catholic family and name is likely to be Cowley
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/a455e10106794
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I think Matthew needs to be looked at.
How did they meet, did she go to Kilkenny to be with him, or meet him there, was it religion or something else about him or his family that was so objectionable.
Who are his parents on the marriage cert?
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Going to local registry today n try and get copy of record found by sinann.looked again at annie and matts marriage cert and above annies name margaret is crossed out. My mum was named margaret as was one of annie n matt daughter. On sinann record margaret is the name of that annies mother. Hope we are unto something here.
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Just to confuse matters further (from a reliable source who knows the area and was actually there this morning)- "Little Bray is actually was, and as far as I can tell still is, in Co. Dublin. It's the part of the Bray town north of the border which runs down the river Dargle at that point. The area was part of Bray RC parish before about 1864. It was also part of Bray CofI parish."
A bit more has been sent to me this morning- "1898 local government act and it seems parts of the Little Bray area were transfered to Co. Wicklow, but were definitely Co. Dublin before that. About half of the townlands in the civil parish (Old Connaught) show up under Co. Wicklow on the 1901 return, the others under Co. Dublin."
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I see you say you have the marriage cert so then you must know what church they were married in a look at the church microfilm will more than likely give you her mothers maiden name,or if not on microfilm a written request to the church might get it for you.
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Who were the witnesses to the marriage? If Annie fibbed about her age, she may have given false details about her father.
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Recently on roots chat i was researching the family of Laurence Mangan Catholics and as luck would have it most of his family can be found on Irish Genealogy the point being that Laurences daughter Brigid married one John George Mills in 1900 and researching his family i found that they were C O I
I then found that John Mills born 1874 got baptised in St Mary's Pro Cathedral in 1899 a while before his marriage,so i wonder was this a requirement for mixed marriages and would Annie have had to do the same,something else to look out for?.
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i see a topic by'' madpat'' today here on Wicklow rootschat re Burial records for St Peters Little Bray had a glance through it for Crowleys a few there but one in particular that might interest you is the burial in 1932 of a Mary Crowley from Little Bray could be a relative.
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I think those are Catholic church records- if the family story is correct then Annie wasn't Catholic.
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I have also had the problem with Little Bray but mostly I found my relatives born or married there were registered in RATHDOWN and not Dublin. I am missing a few people so do you think I should try Dublin South as well?
As for the census information I have learned never to believe the ages given until I have at least the baptismal or birth certificate. You cannot rely on death certificate ages either. I have numerous examples of wrong ages for my ancestors but the most striking of which was a great grandma being 40 in 1901, 56 in 1911 and dying in 1927 at the age of 55! She was in fact born in 1859 and it was only by checking the cathedral records in Carlow that I was able to work out the correct ages etc. Other relatives' ages have been out by up to ten years also either way.