RootsChat.Com
Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Derry (Londonderry) => Topic started by: owenc on Monday 14 October 13 08:25 BST (UK)
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Trying to do part of my family tree and I am really struggling with this part. There are many people that I cannot find any records of and i'm beginning to wonder if they are from England or something.
All I know is that a george phillips is my gggg grandfathers grandfather and I cannot physically locate this man. Over the weekend I tried glendermott catholic church and st columbs church of ireland found nothing. I am clueless. Does anyone know anything about the history of this name in derry? What are its origins?
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Owen,
Do you have a date for George Phillips?
Regards
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Owen,
Do you have a date for George Phillips?
Regards
No I don't sorry. All I know is that he is my gggg granda's (john kerr) granda lol. I got this from a newspaper clipping:
http://m.londonderrysentinel.co.uk/news/local-news/newbuildings-then-and-now-1-2094918
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No I don't sorry. All I know is that he is my gggg granda's (john kerr) granda lol. I got this from a newspaper clipping:
http://m.londonderrysentinel.co.uk/news/local-news/newbuildings-then-and-now-1-2094918
Are you sure that George Philips in the article is your great-great-great-great-grandfather or are you just leaping to that conclusion based on the name and the location? If you can't give us any dates for your George Philips then what's the earliest date for that line that you can provide (and relationship please- i.e. 'my great-great-grandfather John Philips was born 1870' or somthing like that).
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To be alive and owning a car in the 1920's ( the Austin 12 was first produced in 1921) I think that George Phillips must be the grandfather of the interviewee George McLaughlin, not the grandfather of John Kerr who was born circa 1855. John Kerr's grandfather would have been born circa 1805.
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My thoughts exactly, Shaun.
Owen- you've posted about this article before but instead of trying to link to a name in an area you need to research each generation step-by-step.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=646162
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I never thought of it like that. I suppose it could be that, the arcticle is very confusing. The reason why i'm convinced this is true is because john kerr owns a house and the tenant is william phillips.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai000635303/
John kerr was either born in 1855 or 1858 and his father is Patrick kerr from Aughafad in Tyrone. (Not sure where that is). I have a marriage certificate for john kerr and catherine mellon and fintona catholic church is listed. (1880)I don't know where to access the microfilms for tyrone so haven't got to do that.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Londonderry/Glendermot/Ballyore/605273/
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The census record does not say that John Kerr owns the house that William Phillips is occupying- merely that he is the leaseholder of the property (in Griffith's called immediate lessor). To check on the ownership you need to consult the Valuation Revision Books- most people were not actually property owners at that time-
http://www.proni.gov.uk/index/search_the_archives/val12b.htm
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Aghafad is a townland near Fintona http://www.genuki.eu/TYR/Place671.htm
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Patt Kerr listed in Aghafad in 1827 http://www.cotyroneireland.com/tithe/donacavey1827.html
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Owen,
To go back to your original question "the history of the Phillips name in Derry". The earliest record I can find for the name in the county is that of Sir Thomas Phillips. He was an English military man in the Nine Years war and when that was over he was given property and land in Coleraine in 1603. When the London Companies got involved in the Plantation in 1608 Phillips had to give up his Coleraine lands but was given land at Limavady instead. He resided there as did his son and grandson until the late 1690s when the Limavady Holding was sold.
Regards
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The census record does not say that John Kerr owns the house that William Phillips is occupying- merely that he is the leaseholder of the property (in Griffith's called immediate lessor). To check on the ownership you need to consult the Valuation Revision Books- most people were not actually property owners at that time-
http://www.proni.gov.uk/index/search_the_archives/val12b.htm
Well the fact that his name is on it made me think.
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Patt Kerr listed in Aghafad in 1827 http://www.cotyroneireland.com/tithe/donacavey1827.html
Thank you. Yes that would be him but I need to find his wife and her maiden name to see if john kerr is actually related to the Phillips?
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Owen,
To go back to your original question "the history of the Phillips name in Derry". The earliest record I can find for the name in the county is that of Sir Thomas Phillips. He was an English military man in the Nine Years war and when that was over he was given property and land in Coleraine in 1603. When the London Companies got involved in the Plantation in 1608 Phillips had to give up his Coleraine lands but was given land at Limavady instead. He resided there as did his son and grandson until the late 1690s when the Limavady Holding was sold.
Regards
Would the glendermott phillips be related to him then or are they from a different family?
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Here is the 1878 Will of Patrick Kerr of Aughafad, Co Tyrone http://applications.proni.gov.uk/DCAL_PRONI_WillsCalendar/WillsSearchImage.aspx?id=173523
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Sorry Owen, I have not researched the Phillips family.
Regards
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Here is the 1878 Will of Patrick Kerr of Aughafad, Co Tyrone http://applications.proni.gov.uk/DCAL_PRONI_WillsCalendar/WillsSearchImage.aspx?id=173523
Patrick Kerr was born c1808 according to civil registration index, so not that young to be the father of a John Kerr born in 1850s.
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The Will lists a wife Rose ( who possibly is the Rose Kerr who died in Omagh RD in 1892 aged 78), and children Owen, Anne, Dennis and John.
Owen is presumably the eldest as he got the farm.
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Here is the 1878 Will of Patrick Kerr of Aughafad, Co Tyrone http://applications.proni.gov.uk/DCAL_PRONI_WillsCalendar/WillsSearchImage.aspx?id=173523
That is not him because he was present at johns wedding in 1880.
http://imageshack.us/photo/photo/21/jn4b.jpg/
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Does anyone know where I can access fintona catholic church microfilms?
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How do you know he was a witness at a wedding- civil marriage certificates give absolutely no indication of relationship of witnesses to bride or groom.
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It says on the thing father of john kerr is patrick kerr
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It says on the thing father of john kerr is patrick kerr
But it doesn't say he was there.
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So what do you suggest I do then?
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Patrick Kerr was born c1808 according to civil registration index, so not that young to be the father of a John Kerr born in 1850s.
I am now wondering if that Patrick was possibly John's grandfather and whether he had a son Patrick in the 1830's who had died by 1878. Roots Ireland has baptisms of children in Tyrone born to Patrick & Rose Kerr/Karr/Carr in the 1830's:
Roseann 1831
Peter 1832
Ann 1833
Patrick 1836
John 1839
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Aw thank you I will write that down (i'm not sure if it is connected to john though). How will I find out who johns mother is then?
I tried there now looking for fintona's church website and it won't work. Are there microfilms anywhere?
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http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Tyrone/Drumnakilly/Drumnakilly/1748284/
Would this be that patrick? I found his will and it says land left to son John but i'm not sure if thats my john.
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Genuki page for St Lawrence's Fintona: http://www.genuki.eu/TYR/Church1.htm
"PRONI:
Registers of Baptisms 1857-1881 and Marriages 1857-1880."
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Griffiths Valuation for Aghafad (circa 1860) lists Patrick Carr and Patrick Mellon as tenants of Charles Eccles. Patrick Carr appears to be a joint tenant with Michael McCosker. Patrick Mellon is joint tenant with James Mellon.
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Genuki page for St Lawrence's Fintona: http://www.genuki.eu/TYR/Church1.htm
"PRONI:
Registers of Baptisms 1857-1881 and Marriages 1857-1880."
That might cause difficulties for me identifying the mother (maiden name) of john kerr because he was born circa 1855 to 1858 meaning their marriage is gonna be before that! Is there any other method?
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Me and my mum both read that document again and we are still thinking that george phillips is a connection to john kerr despite the age. If it was george mc laughlins granda it would say george mc laughlins grand george phillips. But it says john kerr.
Plus there are two or three houses that john kerr owns with phillips as tenants.
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we are still thinking that george phillips is a connection to john kerr despite the age.
but think about the timeline - how could that possibly be his grandfather?
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we are still thinking that george phillips is a connection to john kerr despite the age.
You seem to be determined to connect George Phillips to your family but the known details don't support this in any way.
Going back to that newspaper article-
"George is a member of the local Archaeological and Historical Society, and his fellow historian, Richard Brennan, draws my attention to the public house just behind us. ... A man called John Kerr, who took over the local bar after the McIvor family, was the first person in the village to have a car, and was the proud owner of one of the first Fords ever produced, and yes, it was black. His grandfather George Phillips was the second man in the village to get himself some wheels, only he had a big Austin 12."
"His grandfather George Phillips" is the grandfather of George that is speaking about the area not the grandfather of John Kerr who he mentioned earlier in the same paragraph.
As Shaun says, the dates don't match up. John Kerr (according to 1911 census was born c1855).
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Londonderry/Glendermot/Ballyore/605273
John Kerr's grandfather could have been born c1800 or even a little earlier which makes it virtually impossible for him to have been "the second man in the village to get himself some wheels, only he had a big Austin 12" (a car which began being manufactured in 1921).
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Reading on in that article (again it is George McLaughlin 's anecdote):
"Close to the McCloskeys lived the Mellons, and on the Damn Row lived George's uncles called George and Eddie Phillips, who were great friends with the Mellons"
http://www.londonderrysentinel.co.uk/news/local-news/newbuildings-then-and-now-1-2094918
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Have you seen this book, Owen?
"In the Shadow of the Tail of the Fox"
http://www.fuls.org.uk/newbuildings/publications.html
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we are still thinking that george phillips is a connection to john kerr despite the age.
but think about the timeline - how could that possibly be his grandfather?
Yea but i'm thinking there is a connection.
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we are still thinking that george phillips is a connection to john kerr despite the age.
You seem to be determined to connect George Phillips to your family but the known details don't support this in any way.
Going back to that newspaper article-
"George is a member of the local Archaeological and Historical Society, and his fellow historian, Richard Brennan, draws my attention to the public house just behind us. ... A man called John Kerr, who took over the local bar after the McIvor family, was the first person in the village to have a car, and was the proud owner of one of the first Fords ever produced, and yes, it was black. His grandfather George Phillips was the second man in the village to get himself some wheels, only he had a big Austin 12."
"His grandfather George Phillips" is the grandfather of George that is speaking about the area not the grandfather of John Kerr who he mentioned earlier in the same paragraph.
As Shaun says, the dates don't match up. John Kerr (according to 1911 census was born c1855).
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Londonderry/Glendermot/Ballyore/605273
John Kerr's grandfather could have been born c1800 or even a little earlier which makes it virtually impossible for him to have been "the second man in the village to get himself some wheels, only he had a big Austin 12" (a car which began being manufactured in 1921).
It does not say George McLaughlins Grandfather George Phillips.
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And i'm still trying to work out what caused John Kerr to move upto County Londonderry from Tyrone.
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Time-wise the George Philips that owned an Austin 12 could not possibly be the grandfather of that John Kerr mentioned in the article.
Since you are still not listening to other opinions and facts there's really no point in going over and over this again.
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But i'm trying to find the mother of john kerr.
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It's quite interesting to look through the Aghafad ledger pages in the online Valuation Revision Books on the PRONI website.
After Patrick Carr/Kerr's death in 1878 the tenancies went to Rose Carr (not Owen), and then to John Carr, whose name disappears from the books in the mid 1890's.
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So you think this rose kerr is his mother? How can I find their marriage?
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So you think this rose kerr is his mother?
I'm not sure, Owen. John was a carpenter in Derry city from the early 1880's wasn't he? So I'm not sure how this would work as regards tenancies in Aghafad at the same time
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So i might never out their mothers maiden name
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Hi Owenc,
I am in the same position as yourself, that I am having difficulty in trying to find out information on the Kerrs and the Mellons.
I have went and looked up the Patrick Kerr and Rose Kerr mentioned in this thread (whose maiden name was McGinn) parents of Patrick Kerr (1836) who you have been trying to find out about his wife, if she did have a maiden name of Phillip. They also had a daughter called Ann Kerr(1833) and another son called John Kerr(1839) and they were all born in Drumlester, Beragh, Co Tyrone.
I am not sure if this is correct as you well know there are many other Kerrs from around that area.
I was wondering if you did ever did find out any more information.
Cheers,
Martin
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Hey. Yes thats what I looking for. I actually didn't find anything but I did find out that Phillips was actually a connection of the man mclaughlin in the story. I am not from that area and there are alot of Kerrs there so I haven't gotten back any further. They seem to be from Tyrone
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Thought I was never going to get in touch with you.
In my previous post I said I was not sure about the information I found because they were residing in Drumlester which is near a village called Six Mile Cross, which is not far from Fintona.
Reason why I am doubting this is because John Kerr and Catherine Mellon were living at Aghafad at the time of their marriage 1880 which is near Fintona. But I could be wrong as they could have moved address. Also more information into who sponsored the children when they were baptised.
Ann Kerr sponsors were Ann and Francis Kerr.
John Kerr sponsors were Patrick and Rose McGurk.
Patrick Kerr sponsors were William and Mary Devlin.
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I have been working on Catherine Mellon side of the family and again similar issue to the Kerrs, so many Mellons around that area as well.
I found other marriages that have the surname Mellon in Fintona (Donacavey Chapel). And they were around the same time period as Catherine marriage.
Alice Mellon married Patrick Garrity 8 Oct 1878, witness were John Cosgrove and Mary Anne Moon. Alice was living at Aghafad at the time of the marriage and she was 36 when she married.
Alice Mellon remarried as Patrick Garrity died and she married Bernard Carrigan 20 July 1888, witness were John Ferris and Mrs Barnett.
Alice was living at Aghafad at the time of the marriage and she was 48 and Bernard was 57. And on her marriage record she was known as Alice Mellon alias McGarrity.
Francis Mellon married Catherine McGuire 10 Aug 1885, witness were Cornelius McCloskey (not too sure on the surname) and Rose Murphy.
Francis was living at Aghafad at the time of the marriage and he was 33 and Catherine was living at Aghafad as well and she was 22.
And the Rose Murphy I mentioned above was one of the witnesses to John Kerr and Catherine Mellon marriage, the other witness was Susan Mellon (who was a visitor to John and Catherine Kerr in the 1901 census at 10 Ballyore along with a Mick Mellon who was living with them, I think he was being an apprentice to John as a carpenter or learning his trade with him).
You will find Francis and Catherine Mellon in the 1901 and 1911 census still living at Agahafad.
1901 census at 11 Aghafad Road.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Tyrone/Draughton/Aghafad/1742963/
1911 census at 38 Aghafad Road.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Tyrone/Draughton/Aghafad/871673/
That is were I am currently at with trying to find out about John Kerr and Catherine Mellon parents and siblings.
How I fit in all of this is that John Kerr and Catherine Kerr had 7 children
Susan Kerr
Rose Kerr married Henry Quigg (Faughanvale, Derry) and had 9 children.
Patrick Joseph Kerr who emigrated to Canada with his brother Niall.
Jane Kerr who we already know was the principal of the Waterside Girls School and was mentioned in the article that you have mentioned at the start of this thread.
Catherine Mary Kerr otherwise known as Cassie married Phillip Bannigan (Strabane) and had 5 children.
John James Kerr married Mary Ann Gallagher (Portsalon, Donegal) and had 10 children, and one of their children Kathleen Mary Kerr would be my granny.
Niall Columba Kerr married Mary O Hara (Glasgow, Scotland) who married in Toronto, Canada. And they had 2 children.
I do apologise with the overload of information which may or may not help you.
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Honestly I have no idea, i'm not from Tyrone and this is really far back in my family tree. My name isn't Kerr so I will definitely look at when I am ready.
I tried to look into it at the time but the number of Kerrs was massive so I didn't get far!!
I will say I am connected to the Henry quigg.
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Can I ask a couple of questions?
1. How did you find out that John Kerr grandfather Patrick Kerr had a wife called Rose?
2. What do you suspect is the name of John Kerr mother that you suspect has a surname of Phillip, or if you could give me info on what you know of the Phillips, I could take it further if you want?
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Can I ask a couple of questions?
1. How did you find out that John Kerr grandfather Patrick Kerr had a wife called Rose?
2. What do you suspect is the name of John Kerr mother that you suspect has a surname of Phillip, or if you could give me info on what you know of the Phillips, I could take it further if you want?
Sure.
1. I bought the marriage certificate of someone on RootsIreland.ie.
2. I have no idea, her maiden name is not Phillips though. I worked that out long ago.
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That's great you have the marriage certificate of John Kerr's grandfather Patrick.
1. Please could you tell me the date of the marriage?
2. Whereabouts did the marriage take place?
3. Fathers name of Patrick and Rose?
4. Witnesses to the marriage?
5. Address given for Patrick and Rose at the time of the marriage?