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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Bedfordshire => Topic started by: Hemmum on Tuesday 22 October 13 15:09 BST (UK)
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I wonder if anyone can shed any light on the burial of;
Thos Seely buried 1726/27 (no parents) Note: listed as Goodman at Thurleigh St Peter Trinity. Free BDM
I cannot see a Goodman family in Thurleigh but Goodman is a given Sabey name.
I wonder why Thomas may have been ‘listed as Goodman’?
John Seeby s of Wm and Susan bap 8 Nov 1713 St Peter Tr Thurleigh (Note: alternative name Seely)
I am interested in a John Saby a Farmer of Blacknoe Farm (which was north of Blacknoe End in the Parish of Thurleigh) who married ‘of Bolnhurst’ to Elizabeth Hull /? Hall ‘of Thurleigh’ and wonder if the family name had a variation of Seeby/Seely in Thurleigh?
John Sabey apparently NC and had unbaptised children 1742-1752 on Bolnhurst register.
John apparently left a will in 1777 although I have not found a burial for this year.
There is however a burial in Thurleigh (as Sabey);
John Sabey of Bolnhurst burial 14 Aug 1781 at Thurleigh and possibly of his wife Eliz Sabey wife of Jn burial 13 Oct 1765 at Thurleigh.
Also a possibly daughter Mary Sabey d of J of Bolnhurst burial 23 Nov 1774 at Thurleigh
And possibly his son Wm Sabey of Colmworth burial 1 Nov 1782 St Peter at Thurleigh
Or possibly his son married William Saby of Bolnhurst married Sarah Throssel of Thurleigh 18 Nov 1785 at Thurleigh.
These entries may not be related but is there any other information on these entries?
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As John's 1777 will wasn't proved until 9 Nov 1781, I don't think there's much doubt that his is the burial on 14 Aug 1781 at Thurleigh, "of Bolnhurst"
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Hi,
All I can give you are some relevant burials at St Peter, Thurleigh.
Source: Bedfordshire Family History Society.
13/10/1765, Elizabeth SABEY
23/11/1774, Mary SABEY
14/08/1781, John SABEY
01/11/1782, William SABEY
07/01/1714, John SEELY
15/11/1715, John SEELY
30/03/1720, Mary SEELY
30/01/1727, Goodman Thomas SEELY
22/03/1736, Thomas CEILEY
Hope that helps.
Victor
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Thos Seely buried 1726/27 (no parents) Note: listed as Goodman at Thurleigh St Peter Trinity. Free BDM
I cannot see a Goodman family in Thurleigh but Goodman is a given Sabey name.
I wonder why Thomas may have been ‘listed as Goodman’?
I assume you mean FreeREG rather than FreeBDM. I don't really understand the FreeREG entry, and would have to look at the PR, although the transcript may shed light on it. (The NBI entry listed by Victor seems to imply that Goodman was a first name, in which case there may be a link to the Sabeys)
It seems as though William the father of the Thurleigh entries was a tailor, which is at variance with the ag labs and farmers of the rest of the Sabey/Seeby family.
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Hi Victor and David
Thank you for you help and I agree that it would be best to check the original. Yes I did mean FreeReg.
I also found;
Lucy Seely d of William bap 13 Jan 1716/17 Thurleigh Beds FreeBDM
It does seem strange that William was a tailor married to Elizabeth.
The 1713 baptism John was the son of William and Susan. A John son of William and Elizabeth buried same year? Does this indicate that there were two Williams or perhaps a transcription error?
John Seeby s of Wm and Susan bap 8 Nov 1713 St Peter Tr Thurleigh (alternative name Seely) ?sister Lucy
Jn Seely s of Wm and Elz buried 7 Jan 1713/14 Thurleigh St Peter
John Saby was a Farmer and I would assume that perhaps the farm was 'in the family'.
You mention the 1777 was a property mentioned?
If John mentioned his children William, James and Sarah I assume that they were alive when the will was written (interesting that it was not proved until 1781 which rather confirms the burial as his).
Therefore perhaps William, James or Sarah took over the property or stayed in Thurleigh. ?
Did William marry Sarah Throssel?
Did the 1777 will mention if Sarah had married?
? Jas (James on Free Reg) SABEY of Bolnhurst was buried in Wilstead 15th April 1800.
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Here's my transcript of the will held at BLARS, extraneous bits excluded:
I, John Saby of Backnor House in the parish of Bolnhurst, farmer....
- to my son James £200 of goods and lawful money to be paid to him immediately after my decease and I appoint my friend Mr Edward Stockdale of Bedford, draper, guardian and trustee for my said son James (ie James was a minor)
- to my son in law Thomas Hartopp one guinea to be paid within six months of my decease
- to my four grandchildren, Thomas, Mary, John and James, issue of my daughter Sarah, wife of the said Thomas Hartopp, the sums of £25 apiece
- the residue to my son William Saby who I appoint sole executor
Dated 6 Dec 1777
Proved 9 Nov 1781
So his living children were
Sarah, wife of Thomas Hartop
James
William
Deceased child Elizabeth - "child of John Saby born Mar 6 1752, named Elizabeth, died in a few weeks"
Property would often/usually be disposed outside the will.
Also living in Bolnhurst was Joseph Sabey who had three wives all named Elizabeth, the first of whom was Elizabeth Hall. They baptised a son William on 26 Dec 1752 at Bolnhurst. I have him as marrying Sarah Throssell in 1785, but I could be wrong and it was William son of John who married Sarah. But there was a William, who I assume to have been the husband of Sarah Throssell, buried in Bolnhurst on 28 Feb 1827 aged 75. But the other William disappears after being named as executor of his father's will.
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Hello; from the Thurleigh PR transcript of burials it just says on 30 Jan 1726/7 Goodman Thos SEELY, no further info. In their indexing Blars link SEELY with SEEBY, but these are quite separate from SABY/SABEY/SABIE. This is clearly a given/christian named so why FreeReg give his name as Thos (rather than Thomas which does not help when searching !) & says listed as Goodman, perhaps suggesting that was some sort of title ... ie. he was a good man? Anyway we know that Sabeys have used first name Goodman in other branches of the family.
Note see http://www.thurleigh.net/ it seems to have the same FreeReg transcripts of births/marriages/burials, use the History & Genealogy tab
Regards
John
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As per IGI, there's a baptism of Goodman Saby at nearby Colmworth on 8 March 1723, parents Joseph & Katherine, ?
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Thank you for the transcript of the Will
If William inherited the residue (bulk) of the estate I assume William was the eldest son
Two children of John were mentioned in the appendix as born in 1742 & 1745 plus
Elizabeth ... child of John Saby born 6 Mar 1752 named Elizabeth died in a few weeks, buried elsewhere Bolnhurst PR. But it seems that Elizabeth was actually buried Bolnhurst
Elizabeth Saby a child buried 6 Mar 1752 St Dunstan Bolhurst
If James was a minor in 1777 then he was born after 1756 so after the children mentioned in the appendix.
Therefore perhaps William was born 1742 and Sarah 1745.
Wm Sabey of Colmworth burial 1 Nov 1782 St Peter at Thurleigh Beds (any notes on this burial may help?)
This was soon after the will was proved. Or was J&E son buried
William SABEY buried 28 Feb 1827 aged 75 born 1752 St Dunstans Bolnhurst. (ten years younger)
This William probably married.
Sarah Seaby or Sabey married Thos Hartop 2 Oct 1771 Bolnhurst Beds (born 1745 married aged 26)
Sarah Hartop buried 21 Jul 1778 Keysoe burial mother or daughter. Sarah is not a beneficiary in the will. Did she die?
Thomas Hartupp s of Thomas and Sarah bap 20 Dec 1772 Keysoe
Mary Hartop d of Thomas and Sarah bap 3 Apr 1774 Keysoe
(also daughter Sarah 1778, son Essek 1779 Keysoe ?bap after Sarah’s burial. No bapt John and James)
I cannot see a marriage for James but there is a burial;
Jas SABEY of Bolnhurst was buried in Wilstead 15th April 1800 Wlistead PR. (only pre 1812 Sabey) is James on FreeReg. Wilstead is 11 miles South from Bolnhurst
I wondered why John did not make a family member the guardian of his son James.
There is some information regarding Edwards Stockdale of Bedford a draper on A2A (he benefits from Ann Taylor’s Will and was deceased by 1783 (burial not found) the only son of John a Tailor and Elizabeth. Edward’s heir was his niece Sarah wife of John Saville) and in a 1771 prosecution he is described as a Tailor not Draper (William Seely of Thurleigh was a Tailor).
Edward and Sarah Stockdall or Stockdell may have had John bap 1775 in Northill but I can find no marriage Edward to Sarah. There is a lack of Stockdale records, Sarah Savill the niece of Edward had children baptised 1783 onwards at the Howard Chapel Bedford one son John Stockdale Saville so perhaps the family were all NC (as was John Saby) which may be their relationship.
John. Thank you for the Thurley link and the 1723 Goodman baptism in Colmworth. I think this Goodmans of Joseph (1675) married Elizabeth Valentine in 1753 at Colmworth. I cannot see how they link to Goodman/Thos Seely/Seeby buried 1727 Thurleigh
From the Thurleigh website I did find (perhaps) the baptism of John Saby’s wife;
Elizabeth Hull d of Rob and Eliz bap 22 Jan 1720 Thurleigh. Rob Hull a Farmer buried 24 Sep 1723 Thurleigh. Elizabeth seems to be their only child perhaps John Saby worked on Robert's farm?
As an aside, a traditional naming pattern in Devon was to use a mother or grandmother’s maiden name as a given name for their children. Could perhaps this branch have a mother nee Goodman?
Just about exhausted this!!!
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Blow it, or words to that effect! Just lost most of the message. Now I'll have to start again. Air's blue in the south of France.
If William inherited the residue (bulk) of the estate I assume William was the eldest son
Two children of John were mentioned in the appendix as born in 1742 & 1745
If James was a minor in 1777 then he was born after 1756 so after the children mentioned in the appendix.
Therefore perhaps William was born 1742 and Sarah 1745.
This was my assumption. William must have been older as James couldn't have been an executor if a minor
Sarah Seaby or Sabey married Thos Hartop 2 Oct 1771 Bolnhurst Beds (born 1745 married aged 26)
Sarah Hartop buried 21 Jul 1778 Keysoe burial mother or daughter. Sarah is not a beneficiary in the will. Did she die?
Thomas Hartupp s of Thomas and Sarah bap 20 Dec 1772 Keysoe
Mary Hartop d of Thomas and Sarah bap 3 Apr 1774 Keysoe
(also daughter Sarah 1778, son Essek 1779 Keysoe ?bap after Sarah’s burial. No bapt John and James)
I think that the 1778 burial at Keysoe is probably the daughter, in that Thomas and Sarah baptised Essek over a year later. She wasn't named as dead in the 1777 will so I assume she was alive. Is she the Sarah Hartopp who marrried Abraham Fisher in Keysoe in 1783, following the death of Thomas in 1780? Would need to check the PR to see if she was described as widow.
Wm Sabey of Colmworth burial 1 Nov 1782 St Peter at Thurleigh Beds (any notes on this burial may help?)
This was soon after the will was proved.
William SABEY buried 28 Feb 1827 aged 75 born 1752 St Dunstans Bolnhurst. (ten years younger)
This William probably married.
I'm pretty sure the 1827 burial is that of William son of James and Elizabeth baptised 1752 in Bolnhurst. I'm not so sure about the William of Colmworth buried at Thurleigh. Freereg will have transcribed any notes so "of Colmworth" is as much as you're going to get. He could just as easily be William (brother of Goodman) baptised at Colmworth in 1721. BLARS have his will, which might shed some light on who he was. And, yes, I know, William's parents are shown as Joseph and Mary. I'm assuming this is a PR error for Joseph & Katherine.
I cannot see a marriage for James but there is a burial;
Jas SABEY of Bolnhurst was buried in Wilstead 15th April 1800 Wlistead PR. is James on FreeReg. Wilstead is 11 miles South from Bolnhurst
I have a note against James that he might be the one buried in Wilstead. I'm not prepared to go further than that in the absence of any further evidence.
John. Thank you for the Thurley link and the 1723 Goodman baptism in Colmworth. I think this Goodmans of Joseph (1675) married Elizabeth Valentine in 1753 at Colmworth. I cannot see how they link to Goodman/Thos Seely/Seeby buried 1727 Thurleigh
Joseph & Katherine were my 7xg grandparents. I think the Seely family is a red herring, notwithstanding they too had a son Goodman.
As an aside, a traditional naming pattern in Devon was to use a mother or grandmother’s maiden name as a given name for their children. Could perhaps this branch have a mother nee Goodman?
I've looked but never found one. Mainly because I don't know where Joseph Sabey was from, nor his wife Katherine Berry either for that matter. They tended to use maiden names as given names in Hunts too. The best one I came across was a blacksmith with a given name of Joyce. Reminds me of the Johnny Cash song " A Boy named Sue"!
In 1750, the Rev John Jones, Rector of Bolnhurst, made a schedule of heads of households, religious denomination, landlord, & size of household. One of the non-conformists was John Saby, farmer, of Backenhoe, 8 in household. (Keysoe, Brook End Baptist Church Book, held at BLARS). That's either a lot of unrecorded children, all of whom must have died as they're not mentioned in the will) or a lot of servants.
Somehow I've missed this Bolnhurst Sabey line from my Ancestry tree, as they don't link in to my other Sabeys ie they don't link to Joseph & Katherine. Must look to rectify that, but it's a day's work!
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Is she the Sarah Hartopp who marrried Abraham Fisher in Keysoe in 1783, following the death of Thomas in 1780? Would need to check the PR to see if she was described as widow.
Keysoe PR marriage transcript has 27 Jun 1783 Abraham Fisher, bach, yeoman, to Sarah Hartopp, widow by licence.... wonder if the licence transcript tells us more.
.... next Keysoe burial on 21 Jul 1778 is Sarah daughter of Thomas & Sarah Hartop
.... burial on 7 Feb 1780 is Thomas Hartop, farmer & churchwarden **
** at back of Keysoe PRs is list of clergy, Thomas Hartop, churchwarden 1759, 60, 61 & 62 and then again 1771 though to 1779
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Thanks John, forgot you had Keysoe.
These Bolnhurst Sabeys were a notch or two above your average ag lab
David
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Interesting that Sarah from a non-conformist family married Thomas Hartopp a churchwarden in the established church.
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Interesting snippet from Bolnhurst PR baptisms; 7 Aug 1757 John, the supposed son of Thomas Hartop of Kaisho (Keysoe) Row by Mary Fensham of this parish, spinster
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Hi.
Sorry to go off topic but I noticed the link to Thurleigh that you noted John
and as someone is looking at the area for their ancestors we are helping with
I am going to direct them to it. Cheers.
Sandy
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I hope the air has cleared in Carcassonne, it has been sunny here today. If it is any conolation I lost 2 days work checking all the census’ when my computer automatically shut down. I know ‘control and save’!
Is she (Sarah) the Sarah Hartopp who marrried Abraham Fisher in Keysoe in 1783, following the death of Thomas in 1780?
John a big ‘Thank you’ for reply and that Sarah Hartop was a widow.
If Sarah Hartop was nee Sabey d of John then her mother was Elizabeth HULL of Thurleigh (d of Robert Hull a Farmer who died 1723 and Elizabeth)
There were other Sabey Hull / Hall links (plus Joseph and Elizabeth later)
Joseph SABEY to Rebecca FISHER or HALL marriage 28 Dec 1814 Colmworth
Licence: Joseph Sabey of Bolnhurst and Rebecca Fisher alias Hull of Colmworth 27 December 1814
Was she Rebecca Fisher bap 4 Jun 1790 d of William and Susan at Northill Beds? Why was she alis HULL?
Joseph and Rebecca had one child Thomas baptised 1 May 1819 at Colmworth buried 4 Jun 1819 aged 1 month Bolnhurst
Joseph's wife Rebeccca SABEY aged 58 born 1793 buried 17 Jun 1851 Bolnhurst
Was Joseph born 1792 s of William Sabey and Sarah Throssell?
Was Joseph 1792 the son of William Saby 1742 the son of John and and his mother Elizabeth Hull?
Also
Edward Sabey married Mary Fisher 11 May 1778 at Godmanchester, Huntingdon, Hunts
Their children baptised 1779-1785 Eaton Socon including a son Francis bap 1785
Was he Edw. Sabey bap 6 Oct 1751 s of Peter & Eliz.at Roxton Beds or possibly a brother of Francis?
Elzth Sabey married Wm Fisher 1812 Old Warden Beds also reg at Southill Pallots Marriage
In 1841 John Sabey born 1771 Beds with his son in law William Fisher born 1786 Beds living Southill
I'm pretty sure the 1827 burial is that of William son of James and Elizabeth baptised 1752 in Bolnhurst. I'm not so sure about the William of Colmworth buried at Thurleigh.. He could just as easily be William (brother of Goodman) baptised at Colmworth in 1721. BLARS have his will, which might shed some light on who he was. And, yes, I know, William's parents are shown as Joseph and Mary. I'm assuming this is a PR error for Joseph & Katherine.
Wm Sabey of Colmworth burial 1 Nov 1782 St Peter at Thurleigh Beds
The reason I thought this could have been related to John of Backnoe is because John Saby's Farm was in the Parish of Thurleigh. If John’s son William did not die, perhaps he married at Thurleigh to Sarah Throssel in 1785?
William's parents are shown as Joseph and Mary. I'm assuming this is a PR error for Joseph & Katherine.
I do not have the baptisms etc for this period in Colmworth so there may have been another William Sabey bap in Colmworth but have allocated the burial William bap 1721 son of Joseph and Mary/Katherine’s;
William Saby an infant buried 28 May 1728 at St Denys Colmworth Beds
In 1750….One of the non-conformists was John Saby, farmer, of Backenhoe, 8 in household. (Keysoe, Brook End Baptist Church Book, held at BLARS). That's either a lot of unrecorded children, all of whom must have died as they're not mentioned in the will) or a lot of servants.
John, his wife Elizabeth, children William and Sarah is only four! Elizabeth born and died 1752 James was born after 1756 so not in the count. A possible child was Mary Sabey d of J of Bolnhurst burial 1774 Thurleigh.
I had a look at any possible family members in the area who could have been servants to Farmer John in 1750 and found;
Joseph Sabey to Eliz Hall on 24 Dec 1751, servants, both of Bolnhurst (?1st wife)
They had one child bap William, son of Joseph & Eliz Saby, labr, priv bap 26 Dec 1752 Bolnhurst.
If William was privately baptised did he die soon after which is why he was baptised to be buried?
Joseph’s wife Elizabeth nee Hall was buried in 1769. Although they had been married 18 years there were no other baptised children. Perhaps Joseph and Elizabeth were also NC and this is where Francis 1760 fits in? Could John the Farmer and Joseph the servant be related?
Somehow I've missed this Bolnhurst Sabey line from my Ancestry tree, as they don't link in to my other Sabeys ie they don't link to Joseph & Katherine. Must look to rectify that, but it's a day's work!I look forward to your findings!!
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I look forward to your findings!!
My findings are all in my computer. It's just that John the non-conformist and his family, and Francis and all of his descendants didn't get transferred to Ancestry. Unfortunately it seems as though I can't add a gedcom to an existing tree on Ancestry so I've got to enter them manually, which I'm doing at the moment, but after an hour and a quarter I've only added 5 names! But it does give me the chance to rethink my logic. One thought that's already occurred to me is that there's nothing to say that Joseph Sabey, the other family in Bolnhurst, the one who married firstly Elizabeth Hall in 1751, was also non-conformist. The fact that he baptised one child from each of his three marriages in the established church suggests that he wasn't non-conformist. Which might be why I haven't inked in that Francis was his son. There's not enough evidence to show that he was. But I'm sure that Francis wasn't the son of John otherwise he'd have been mentioned in the 1777 will.
Yet Francis appears to have been non-conformist as well - have you checked Little Staughton Baptist church book to see if there's anything there that sheds any light on his background?
Joseph SABEY to Rebecca FISHER or HALL marriage 28 Dec 1814 Colmworth
Licence: Joseph Sabey of Bolnhurst and Rebecca Fisher alias Hull of Colmworth 27 December 1814
Was she Rebecca Fisher bap 4 Jun 1790 d of William and Susan at Northill Beds? Why was she alis HULL?
1851 gives her birthplace as Colmworth, if it's the right Rebecca, as she's described as unmarried.
See also Bedford gaol website for an 1814 entry for Joseph Sabey.
Can you access my tree on Ancestry? If not send me a PM with your email address and I'll send you an invitation.
David
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The only Little Staughton records I have are;
Dinnah Sabey born 14 Feb 1791 d of Frances and Charlotte bap at Baptist Church Lt Staughton
Samuel Sabey s of Francis and Charlotte born 1 Feb 1793 bapt Baptist Church Lt Staughton
His son Boaz marries Little Staughton
Boaz Sabey aged 30 born 1819 s of Samuel married Louisa Lugsdin aged 21 born 1828 d of Robert married 28 Mar 1849 Little Staughton Bedford
I can only find these two baptism for Frances first two children but there were obviously others probably;
1795 William SABEY Bolnhurst, 1800 Thomas SABEY Bolnhurst, 1800 Ann SABEY / YORK Bolnhurst, 1803 Rebeca SABEY / COVINGTON Bolnhurst
There are two burials for Rececca Saby;
Rebeccca SABEY aged 58 born 1793 buried 17 Jun 1851 St Dunstans Bolnhurst
Rebecca Saby aged 60 born 1791 buried 15 Jun 1851 Bedford Workhouse.
But I can only find one on the census;
In 1851 RS born 1795 Colnworth unmarried a servant is a pauper in Bedford workhouse.
In 1841 RS born 1796 Beds liv Bolnhurst with William and Rebecca Carroll next to Blackland Farm. previous home is Charlotte Sabey nee White widow of Francis with her d Ann York
Joseph Sabey born 1793 committed
1815 of Bolnhurst 3 months for Snaring
1816 of Bolnhurst 2 years stealing ducks broke from prison 19 April bought back 26th 1817
1819 of Bromham 3 months Game Laws
1822 born in and of Bolnhurst 4 months Game Laws 2nd offence married
Joseph SABEY buried 5 Aug 1827 aged 36 born 1791 Bolnhurst
Joseph Sabey born 1792 bapt 20 Oct 1795 s of William and Sarah at Bolnhurst
Perhaps Rebecca was fed up with him and the amount of time he spent in prison is probably why they only had one child!
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Have you seen the marriage entry of Francis and Charlotte? Do the witnesses provide any clues?
I think the two Rebecca Sabey burials in 1851, two days apart, are one and the same Rebecca. When the workhouse found where she was from they shipped her body back to Bolnhurst for burial.
I think Joseph was probably born in 1792, the son of William and Sarah (Throssell) - on baptism in Bolnhurst on 20 Oct 1795 he was age 3. But there's also a Bedford Gaol entry
Name: Joseph Sabey Age: 21
Date of Offence: 21st December 1814 Offense: Bastardy
Height: 5 ft 9 inches Hair colour: Brown Complexion: Fresh
Number of children: 0
Residence town: Colmworth
This was only a week before he married Rebecca. Whilst I can't see a baptism of a child I suspect that the Overseers leaned on him, obtained a marriage licence, and marched him down the aisle.
Thanks to John who got me heavily involved in Boaz Sabey, with whom I have no blood relationship, or more specifically the Lugsdens, I now have a tree on Ancestry with 837 people on it, not one of whom is connected to me. I'm now the world's leading expert on Lugsdens from Beds, London, Canada, US (but not Australia who has its own Lugsden expert).
It's possible that Lt Staughton Baptist Church book might include details of when Francis was admitted into membership of the church and where he was from.
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I have not seen the marriage of Francis and Charlotte I only know that;
Francis Sabey to Charlotte White 1790 Bolnhurst as Pallots and that there was a forum topic regarding an adult baptism at Bolnhurst of Francis Sabey on 15 Nov 1790 and a birth year of 1760. It also has a member submission of a marriage of Francis Sabey to Charlotte White on the same day. confirmed by John P Rootschat.
It's possible that Lt Staughton Baptist Church book might include details of when Francis was admitted into membership of the church and where he was from.
I think we must hope that one of the wonderful Rootschatters may be able to help with this as I have no idea! I have just being searching around the earlier families for some inspiration. Boaz was the brother of 'my' Ruth.
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Just to confirm, Francis Sabey married Charlotte White at Bolnhurst on 15 Nov 1790. On that same date there's a baptism of Francis Sabey, aged about 30 years.
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Joseph SABEY to Rebecca FISHER or HALL marriage 28 Dec 1814 Colmworth
Licence: Joseph Sabey of Bolnhurst and Rebecca Fisher alias Hull of Colmworth 27 December 1814
Was she Rebecca Fisher bap 4 Jun 1790 d of William and Susan at Northill Beds? Why was she alis HULL?
Have you disregarded Rebekah "daughter illegitimate of Sarah Hull" baptised at Colmworth on 30 Sep 1798 ? ...... as on 27 Mar 1798 Richard Fisher married Sarah Hull at Colmworth...
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When you're totally stuck, as you are with Francis, you have no option but to pursue every possible angle. And the witnesses at his 1790 marriage might provide a clue as to both his and Charlotte's lines. Siblings were often witnesses. The transcripts prepared by Beds Records Office, from which John and I largely work, don't include witnesses for marriages. But you can order and view the microfilm at your nearest LDS Family History Centre.
The full 1750 census of Bolnhurst can be found at http://www.bedfordshire.gov.uk/CommunityAndLiving/ArchivesAndRecordOffice/CommunityArchives/Bolnhurst/BolnhurstInhabitants1750.aspx John Saby wasn't the owner of the land as the landlord was John Lawson Esq, and the rent was £45pa
BLARS holds the Little Staughton Baptist Church book but I can't tell if this just a register of births and baptisms or whether it includes other detail (which Southill and Blunham which I have certainly do). It too has been filmed by the LDS so it's something you could check yourself on microfilm at the LDS.
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The Little Staughton baptist chapel registers (which includes baptisms & burials) have been transcribed & available to download from Colmworth & Neighbours history society site...... take downloads then other downloads links...
http://www.colmworthhistory.org.uk/#
One of the names you will see there is Edmund Ward, farmer of Thurleigh; well he stood surety for the marriage licence dated 18 Nov 1785 for William Saby are 21+, labourer of Bolnhurst to Sarah Throssel age 21+ of Thurleigh.
Edmund Ward is mentioned as a member of the congregation between 1766 & 1776 in the Little Staughton Meeting booklet by H G Tibbutt published 1951, along with Fortune Fisher of Colmworth
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The licence transcript dated 1 Oc 1771 for Thomas Hartop, farmer of Keysoe to marry Sarah Seaby of Bolnhurst has her aged 24 (so born c 1747). Surety was given by Dan Worship of Eynesbury, Hunts
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Edmund Ward is mentioned as a member of the congregation between 1766 & 1776 in the Little Staughton Meeting booklet by H G Tibbutt published 1951, along with Fortune Fisher of Colmworth
This is the sort of information that I would hope to find in the transcript of the Church book, which is doubtless where H G Tibbutt got the detail from for his booklet
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The licence transcript dated 1 Oc 1771 for Thomas Hartop, farmer of Keysoe to marry Sarah Seaby of Bolnhurst has her aged 24 (so born c 1747). Surety was given by Dan Worship of Eynesbury, Hunts
Thanks John, that's useful information, although I'm not sure where it leaves my supposition that she was the unnamed Sabey child born 25 Feb 1745. Either she's another child whose birth wasn't recorded in the back of Bolnhurst parish register which would possibly make more sense of the 1750 census which says that there were 8 people in the household, or else her age of 24 was a couple of years adrift. These non-conformists are a pain!
David
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Joseph SABEY to Rebecca FISHER or HALL marriage 28 Dec 1814 Colmworth
Licence: Joseph Sabey of Bolnhurst and Rebecca Fisher alias Hull of Colmworth 27 December 1814
Was she Rebecca Fisher bap 4 Jun 1790 d of William and Susan at Northill Beds? Why was she alis HULL?
Have you disregarded Rebekah "daughter illegitimate of Sarah Hull" baptised at Colmworth on 30 Sep 1798 ? ...... as on 27 Mar 1798 Richard Fisher married Sarah Hull at Colmworth...
Presumably this must have been a late baptism if her parents were Richard Fisher and Sarah Hull who married six months earlier,
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....... it leaves my supposition that she was the unnamed Sabey child born 25 Feb 1745.....
David, the unnamed child born 25 Feb 1745 is stated to be son of John Saby.
There is a prior child of John Saby born 29 Aug 1742
Later on 6 Mar 1752 child of John Saby named Elizabeth, born and died in a few weeks, buried elsewhere.
It next line says on 8 Nov 1752 "Another (named Sarah) buried at Kaisho"
Do you interpret this to be Sarah, child of John Saby ?
Also there is no burial in 1752 at Keysoe of any Elizabeth or Sarah; Saby or otherwise
more points to ponder !
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Hi John
The note I made was as follows
... child of John Saby born Aug 29 1742
... child of John Saby born Feb 25 1745
... child of John Saby born Mar 6 1752, named Elizabeth, died in a few weeks, buried elsewhere
Perhaps I made an error with the 1745 birth, and put child rather than son. I haven't got the 1752 burial of Sarah at all, which is at odds with the marriage licence allegation.
I'm almost at the point of throwing in the towel with the Bolnhurst Sabeys!
David
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Come on David don’t get down hearted!!
One thought that's already occurred to me is that there's nothing to say that Joseph Sabey, the other family in Bolnhurst, the one who married firstly Elizabeth Hall in 1751, was also non-conformist. The fact that he baptised one child from each of his three marriages in the established church suggests that he wasn't non-conformist. Which might be why I haven't inked in that Francis was his son.
Although Joseph Sabey married three times 1751, 1770, and 1778 (27 years time span) and probably died in 1804 Bolnhurst he only had three children baptised;
1.William, son of Joseph & Eliz Saby, labr, priv bap 26 Dec 1752 Bolnhurst PR (privately bap ?died) on its own perhaps not significant but then
2.Sarah Sabey d of Joseph and Elizabeth born Jun 1770 bap 9 Oct 1774 at Bolnhurst IGI P003551 (bap on burial born before marriage in Dec.)
Sarah, daughter of Joseph & Eliz Saby, age 4yr & 4 months (born Jun 1770) burial 9 Oct 1774 Bolnhurst PR
3.Elizabeth Sabey d of Joseph and Elizabeth bap 16 May 1779 Bolnhurst Beds (bap on burial)
Eliz, daughter of Joseph & Eliz Saby buried 16 May 1779 at Bolnhurst PR
Perhaps Joseph was unlucky not to have surviving children (his wives got pregnant son after or before the marriages) or perhaps he was NC and had other children who did not died so were not baptised.
I have read that (perhaps this needs clarification);
‘A burial could only take place in a graveyard of a Parish Church (unless a NC Denomination had purchaded land for burial. Burials started Little Staugnton Baptist 1786).
As an article on Genuki. 'If a new-born infant was sickly and thought unlikely to survive, its fate in Heaven required it to be baptised urgently. So any available clergyman was persuaded to attend the family home and baptise the child there, and hence the baptism was done "privately" and recorded as such. If the child recovered it would often be baptised publicly later and you may sometimes find "brought to church" with a date, added beside the original entry, or as a separate entry in the register'
Also there is no burial in 1752 at Keysoe of any Elizabeth or Sarah; Saby or otherwiseWas this the burial (remember unbaptised Elizabeth was buried 1752 Bolnhurst)?
Sarah Saby a child buried 8 Nov 1752 St Dunstan Bolhurst
John
Have you disregarded Rebekah "daughter illegitimate of Sarah Hull" baptised at Colmworth on 30 Sep 1798 ? ...... as on 27 Mar 1798 Richard Fisher married Sarah Hull at Colmworth...
John. I do not have these Colmworth records so thank you for this it seems spot on to explain her alias and again there is the Hull / Fisher / Sabey link.
Is there any information on the marriage licence?
Licence: Joseph Sabey of Bolnhurst and Rebecca Fisher alias Hull of Colmworth 27 December 1814
You mention Edmund Ward farmer of Thurleigh; stood surety for the marriage licence of William Saby and Sarah Throssel.
Please excuse my ignorance but why would and what is the significance of standing surety for a marriage ?
Also
Edmund Ward is mentioned as a member of the congregation between 1766 & 1776 in the Little Staughton
Was this the Baptist Church and therefore indicate that he was NC? I can see Edmund and Mary Ward of Thurleighh baptised children there 1770-1786.
‘My’ Francis baptised his son ‘my’ Samuel there in 1793 although he says on the censu he was born 1792 at Bolhurst.. Samuel and his 1st wife Elizabeth baptised children from 1818 in Keysoe although his eldest child Naomi was probably born 1815 in Keysoe. I have been unable to find a marriage for Samuel Sabey to Elizabeth. Can you help please?
There is also a submitted entry for a second marriage for Samuel to Mary Dickins on 23 Mar 1829 Keysoe. Can you confirm this?
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‘My’ Francis baptised his son ‘my’ Samuel there in 1793 although he says on the censu he was born 1792 at Bolhurst.
No, he didn't baptise his son there, as Baptists don't do infant baptisms. It was Samuel's birth that was recorded in Little Staughton Baptist Church book
He doesn't say in any census that he was born in 1792, as all that's given in censuses is his age. Ancestry have inferred a year of birth by deducting the age from the census year. As the census was taken at around the end of March each year, apart from 1841 when ages were rounded down anyway, this method of calculating the birth year stands a 25% chance of being accurate. There's a 75% chance that it was a year earlier, and that's assuming that the census age is correct, which it often wasn't. In other words if he said in 1851 that he was 58, he could have been born anywhere between 1 Apr 1792 and 30 Mar 1793, but that's assuming 58 is accurate. In other words again you can't be too exact when it comes to deducing birth years from census ages.
I'll pick up the Sabeys later as I want to have a closer look at the de Beauchamp thread on this board, as he was my 24xg grandfather and we don't get too many medieval queries!
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The entry on the Little Staughton baptist register, which I assume his parents attended, is that Samuel Sabey was born 1 Feb 1793 but on the census Samuel was born in Bolnhurst which is where his parents married lived and were buried.
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Beds Archives probate records have the Letters of Administration for Thomas Hartop, farmer of Keysoe who was buried 7 Feb 1780 who died intestate - where Sarah Hartop of Keysoe, widow; William Peppercorn of Bolnhurst, farmer; & William Sabey of Keysoe, farmer swore on oath who she was, and which was granted on 18 Apr 1780 where the estate was not worth more than £300.
The will of Abraham Fisher of Keysoe Row who was buried Keysoe 2 Apr 1789 first releases Thomas Hartop eldest son of my wife Sarah from repayment of mortgage.... & acknowledges that he is hier to his father Thomas Hartop of Keysoe Row, yeoman (who died 1780) & the residue goes to wife Sarah. Will dated 28 Mar 1789 proved 13 Feb 1790 - not amounting to more than £300
Next Letters of Admin for Sarah Fisher who was buried at Keysoe on 20 July 1806 say that on 13 Dec 1806 John Hartop of Keysoe & declared he was lawful son of Sarah Fisher, widow, late of Keysoe who died intestate for a sum not more than £450. This was sworn by John Hartop of Keysoe, yeoman; John Claridge of Keysoe, yeoman & Thomas Evans of St Paul's Bedford, bricklayer. There is also an Inventory taken by William Williamson & William Crockford that listed all the animals & crops valued at £470. It states 'Agreed by children of late Sarah Fisher that their brother Thomas Hartop should take content of Inventory & that John & his brother Essex should be jointly be responsible for payment to brethren & sisters' This was signed by John Hartop, Essesk Hartop, James Hartop, Eliz Fisher, Sarah Fisher & George Fisher.
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Thanks very much John. This is very useful information. Do I assume you went to the Archives this morning? Not Kettering Archives!
So in 1780 who I assume to be Sarah's brother William was a farmer in Keysoe. Still can't see what became of him though.
Keysoe Muster List 1803 included
Edmund Ward Farmer class 4* Volunteer married
John Hartop servant Class 1** Volunteer unmarried
Essick Hartop servant Class 1 Volunteer unmarried
James Hartop labourer. 3 children under 10. Class 4. Married. Volunteer
No Sabeys, but if William was born when I think he was ie before 1747 he would have been too old to be included (max 55). He wasn't included in the owner of teams list either.
* Class 4 Married men over 30
** Class 1 Men between 17 and 30, unmarried, no children living under 10
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Hi John
Thank you so much for all your help. I found out why I did not find 'Rebekah "daughter illegitimate of Sarah Hull" baptised at Colmworth on 30 Sep 1798 ? She is Rebekah NULE on the IGI batch!
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Samuel Sabey was born 1 Feb 1793
I have a lot of Sabeys in my tree, but it's just struck me that this is the only Samuel. So unless Francis was from elsewhere he didn't name his eldest son after his father.
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I have been unable to find a marriage for Samuel Sabey to Elizabeth. Can you help please?
Nor have I. Neither in Beds nor in Hunts. Perhaps they married in Northants where you'd need a look up in Northants Marriage Index. Or perhaps they didn't marry at all, as I can't find a burial for Elizabeth either.
As an article on Genuki. 'If a new-born infant was sickly and thought unlikely to survive, its fate in Heaven required it to be baptised urgently. So any available clergyman was persuaded to attend the family home and baptise the child there, and hence the baptism was done "privately" and recorded as such. If the child recovered it would often be baptised publicly later and you may sometimes find "brought to church" with a date, added beside the original entry, or as a separate entry in the register'
Rather than a clergyman it was often the midwife who did the private baptism.
There is also a submitted entry for a second marriage for Samuel to Mary Dickins on 23 Mar 1829 Keysoe. Can you confirm this?
The transcripts only go up to 1812. Anything more recent than that you need to look at the parish register microfilm, which you can do at your nearest LDS Family History Centre
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Thinking out loud!
In my own database I have a number of Sabey families who are all standalone, so got missed when I uploaded my tree to Ancestry, and which I'm slowly adding, which gives me the chance to re-evaluate.
One of the families I've just added is Edward Sabey of Eaton Socon born c 1756 who married Mary Fisher in Godmanchester in 1778. I don't know where he was from. But he baptised a son, Francis, in 1785. After Francis born c 1760 he's the second Francis in my tree. Could Francis born c 1760 and Edward b c 1756 have been siblings. In fact you mentioned this possibility in reply #16, but for some reason I'd missed the baptism of Edward in Roxton in 1751. Revisiting the Roxton connection! Doesn't explain though why there's no baptism for Francis. Still dubious about Roxton though.
There's also a marriage of Edward Seabee in Hail Weston in 1741 who's also worth looking at. Hail Weston is only 5 miles across the fields from Bolnhurst. An Edward was baptised there in 1858.
David
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Thanks very much John. This is very useful information. Do I assume you went to the Archives this morning? Not Kettering Archives!
David, I visited Bedford Archives Friday morning ..... interestingly I've seen those Hartop papers before ... http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=537571.20
John
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You've got a better memory than I have John. I'd forgotten all about that thread - which was an interesting one.
I've got so many Sabey families in my database, entered when trying to link them all together to "my" Colmworth Sabeys, that I have trouble remembering what I've done and what I haven't. And it hasn't helped that many of them being standalone, weren't picked up when I uploaded to Ancestry.
Brilliant day here, we're missing your hurricane
David
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So in 1780 who I assume to be Sarah's brother William was a farmer in Keysoe. Still can't see what became of him though.
David I don't suppose you looked at the will of William Sabey, farmer of Colmworth ref 1782/55 at the same time you were looking at the will of John Sabey of Backnoe House, Bolnhurst - I expect not otherwise you'd have sussed it out!
I read it today... it first leaves all corn, grain, hay, implements, goods & chattels to my trusty friend Henry Peacock farmer of Ravensden to administrate as trustee.... for it to go to my brother James Sabey (who might still be a minor) remember John Sabey left the lot to oldest son William...
He also left to my nephews & nieces Thomas, John, James & Mary Hartop, children of my sister Sarah Hartop of Keysoe, widow, an amount that they get when they reach 21.
He then leaves 5 guineas to housekeeper Ann Maria Clark & 2 guineas to Henry Peacock to be sole executor & administrator.
Will dated 25 Oct 1782 & proved 30/11/1782 on oath of Henry Peacock; effects valued upwards from £100 but not exceeding £300.
This ties in with burial at Thurleigh of William Sabey from Colmworth on 1 Nov 1782
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You're right John, I didn't look at that will in the archives. I'm very grateful that you did though, as it ties up all the ends very nicely. And raises a couple more questions which I'll worry about in the morning!
Thanks very much for taking the trouble to look that one up.
David
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So if William Sabey of Colmworth, son of John Sabey was buried at Thurleigh on 1 Nov 1782 where his will mentions no wife & children, he cannot be the William Saby of Bolnhurst who married Sarah Throssel of Thurleigh on 18 Nov 1785 at Thurleigh. Witnesses to the marriage were Edmund Ward (who gave surety for his marriage licence) & Edward Peacock. So who does this William belong to?
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Sarah Saby a child buried 8 Nov 1752 St Dunstan Bolhurst
There is no burial at Bolnhurst of Sarah Saby on 8 Nov 1752 - where do you get that from?
Is there any information on the marriage licence? of Joseph Sabey of Bolnhurst and Rebecca Fisher alias Hull of Colmworth 27 December 1814
Not much else, Joseph was labourer & bachelor & Rebecca was spinster. Witnesses were Campion Cornish & John Lovel. Interestingly a Campion Cornish was witness at marriage of Thomas Byeway to Elizabeth Sabey at Bolnhust on 31 May 1801
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There was a second marriage for Samuel Sabey, widower to Mary Dickins on 23 Mar 1829 at Keysoe, witnesses Geoge Sabey & Ann Saby
Marriage witnesses.... at Bolnhurst
15 Nov 1790 Francis Sabey & Charlotte White were Samuel White & Elizabeth Ashwell
27 Mar 1778 Joseph Sabey, widower to Elizabeth Warren were Francis Bottell & William Eynes
2 Oct 1771 Thomas Hartop widower of Keysoe to Sarah Seaby were Francis Elms & Thomas Spencer
2 Nov 1761 Robert Moss & Catherine Sabey were Edward Tinggey & Nathaniel Wells
4 Dec 1770 Joseph Sabey widower to Elizabeth Lovell, widow were Rachel Peck & Francis Elms
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So if William Sabey of Colmworth, son of John Sabey was buried at Thurleigh on 1 Nov 1782 where his will mentions no wife & children, he cannot be the William Saby of Bolnhurst who married Sarah Throssel of Thurleigh on 18 Nov 1785 at Thurleigh. So who does this William belong to?
True. This is one of the ends tidied up by the will. This William of the will must have been the son of John of Backnoe House, who also named a minor son James and daughter Sarah Hartop. And again, no mention of a Francis thus confirming that he wasn't from this particular non-conformist family.
William who married Sarah Throssell was the son of the "other" Bolnhurst Sabey family, Joseph & Elizabeth (Hall), baptised in Bolnhurst on 26 Dec 1752 who was buried in Bolnhurst age 75 on 28 Feb 1827
And one of the questions raised by the will is what happened to my 6xg great uncle William baptised at Colmworth on 3 Dec 1721, who could conceivably have been the William buried in Thurleigh in 1782 until you found the will which removed that possibility
And another question which has troubled me for years is who was John of Backnoe house? There were two John Sabeys both born at about the same time - one who started baptising children in Northill in 1739 with wife Jane, and the other who married in Wilden in 1741 and was I assume the John in Backnoe House. Which of these Johns is the one who was baptised in Colmworth in 1716 cannot be determined. Whichever it was, I'm a baptism short!
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Marriage witnesses.... at Bolnhurst
2 Nov 1761 Robert Moss & Catherine Sabey were Edward Tinggey & Nathaniel Wells
This marriage had slipped under my radar screen. Was she the Catherine baptised at Northill in 1740/1 the daughter of John and Jane, whose marriage hasn't been found? Other trees show her as Jane Tingey, with no evidence that I can see other than they named a son Tingey Sabey in 1764. The witness at Catherine's marriage adds support to the theory. Does the marriage entry give a parish of residence for Catherine, other than otp?
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Sarah Saby a child buried 8 Nov 1752 St Dunstan Bolhurst
There is no burial at Bolnhurst of Sarah Saby on 8 Nov 1752 - where do you get that from?
The date came from you John, although there doesn't seem to be any such burial in parish registers
It next line says on 8 Nov 1752 "Another (named Sarah) buried at Kaisho"
Do you interpret this to be Sarah, child of John Saby ?
Also there is no burial in 1752 at Keysoe of any Elizabeth or Sarah; Saby or otherwise
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John, I know you're the wizard of the Marriage Licence Allegations. Next time you're in the library could you kindly have a look for
John Saby of Blacknoe House, husbandman to Elizabeth Hull of Thurleigh. Licence from Mr Lamb of St Pauls Bedford.
They married in Wilden on 29 Mar 1741
Many thanks
David
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Sarah Saby a child buried 8 Nov 1752 St Dunstan Bolhurst
Sarah Saby a child buried 8 Nov 1752 St Dunstan Bolhurst is on Find My Past
Record source National Burial Index
Data provider Bedford Family History Society
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I question if she was a child of John and Elizabeth as they already had a daughter Sarah born c 1747
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Joseph SABEY to Rebecca FISHER or HALL marriage 28 Dec 1814 Colmworth
Licence: Joseph Sabey of Bolnhurst and Rebecca Fisher alias Hull of Colmworth 27 December 1814
Was she Rebecca Fisher bap 4 Jun 1790 d of William and Susan at Northill Beds? Why was she alis HULL?
Have you disregarded Rebekah "daughter illegitimate of Sarah Hull" baptised at Colmworth on 30 Sep 1798 ? ...... as on 27 Mar 1798 Richard Fisher married Sarah Hull at Colmworth...
Presumably this must have been a late baptism if her parents were Richard Fisher and Sarah Hull who married six months earlier,
As her later census and burial ages put her birth 1793-6 I doubt that Richard Fisher was her father
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Sarah Saby a child buried 8 Nov 1752 St Dunstan Bolhurst
Sarah Saby a child buried 8 Nov 1752 St Dunstan Bolhurst is on Find My Past
Record source National Burial Index
Data provider Bedford Family History Society
I repeat there is no burial of that child on that date in the Bolnhurst PR burials transcript, which seems to tell me that the Beds FHS when sourcing the NBI took that info from the back of the PR from the notes regarding the "register of unbaptised children" so that date is the day Sarah was born & not buried and which also states she was buried at Kaisho (Keysoe) anyway.
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John, I know you're the wizard of the Marriage Licence Allegations. Next time you're in the library could you kindly have a look for John Saby of Backnoe House, husbandman to Elizabeth Hull of Thurleigh. Licence from Mr Lamb of St Pauls Bedford. They married in Wilden on 29 Mar 1741
David cannot do....the first volume of the marriage licence transcripts starts at 1747; that above info is as recorded on the Wilden PR marriage transcript.
Also at Wilden do you have marriage on 26 Mar 1744 of Richard Saby, servant to Rebecca Fox, servant
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Shame, but thanks anyway John
Yes, I have the marriage of Richard and Rebecca. They also had a son named Goodman which is where we came in!
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Part 1.
John, thank you for all your information and help, particularly the wedding witnesses
There has been so much on the board but 'my thinking' and thoughts and to recap are (trying not to go off on too many tangents!
As Francis Sabey was baptised on his marriage in 1790 aged 30 born 1760 and not baptised as a child so I assume he was NC particularly as he obviously attended the Baptist Chapel. He married and lived in Bolnhust. He was on the Bolhurst Muster Roll in 1803.
My thinking was. If Francis Saby who was NC himself, then perhaps his parents were also NC. I could see two possible fathers in Bolnhurst area;
John Sabey the Farmer who married in 1740 to Elizabeth Hall/Hull. With the valuable information from the wills these we deffinately not his parents. Neither was he the son of John’s son William who did not have children.
The Hartop information was fascinating (some they went back to their NC ways) I found births registered of John Hartop and Anna Green children at Dr William’s Library, Cripplegate London. Amazing you even get the midwives names!
It is possible that John’s brother Essex Hartop bach otp married Ann Tilsley spins married 16 Oct 1810 Cripplegate London both make their marks, witness were William Sutton and Sarah Sutton both signed. Essex Hartop’s burial in Greenwich agrees with his birth year in Keysoe.
I am not sure if the witnesses are significant but William Sabey a Farmer of Blunham married Sarah Sutton and were also Baptist/ Wesleyan.
From the Hartop Thread you mention
6 Mar 1748/9 George Richards of Cardington, widower, tailor to marry Mary Seaby of Elstow aged 26; surety by Robert Jones victualler of Elstow.
Note . from Elstow PR marriages they've transcribed her name as SEELY
However ... under that SEABY name on licence dated 1 Oct 1771 for Thomas Hartop farmer of Keysoe aged 36 to marry Sarah Seaby of Bolnhurst aged 24; surety given by Dan Worship of Eynesbury, Hunts
Could that mean that the SEELY records from Thurleigh be SEABY/SABEY records? particularly as there was a Goodman (unusual but a Sabey name) /Thomas Seeley and nb William Seely was also a Tailor.
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Part 2
The other possible father of Francis, if he was NC was Joseph Sabey (b 1726 s of Thomas and Sarah Wallis) who married three times 1751, 1770, 1778 and married for at least 27 years only had three children baptised and perhaps only so they could be buried? William privately baptised 1752 (he may have survived but was obviously sickly). Sarah in 1774 aged 4yrs 4 months who was buried on the same day, why wait till a child is over 4 years old before baptism and the third Elizabeth baptised 1779 on the same day she was buried.
Surely during this time Joseph had other children but IF he was NC then the children may not have been baptisted and perhaps Francis (and others) may belong to him. I know Francis did not have a son Joseph but then Joseph did not name a son (as far as we know) have a son named Thomas (if Thomas was his father)
Could one of his other children be Sarah Saby a child buried 8 Nov 1752 St Dunstan Bolhurst. His mother was Sarah Wallis.
‘I repeat there is no burial of that child on that date in the Bolnhurst PR burials transcript, which seems to tell me that the Beds FHS when sourcing the NBI took that info from the back of the PR from the notes regarding the "register of unbaptised children" so that date is day Sarah was born & not buried and which also states she was buried at Kaisho (Keysoe) anyway.
If Francis born 1760 (or 1763 from his burial) was the son of Joseph of his first marriage and his father remarried twice perhaps Francis did not grow up with or want to name a child after his father?
I looked for clues regardin the naming of children etc.
At the Bapstist Church, Francis Sabey and Charlotte White named their first child Dinah which is why I looked at the only earlier Dinah the wife of Peter who were baptising children in Roxton 1725-1735. Francis did not have a son Peter. I wondered if Dinah could have been Francis’s grandson
There was another Dinah SABEY b 3 Mar 1817 baptism 30 May 1819 d of James and Mary (unknown) at Colmworth
I wondered if James could be a brother of Francis? Could he be another unbaptised child?
James and Mary also had a daughter Ann and sons Thomas and William the same as Francis.
But it seems that James was born 1798 the son of William 1757 and Sarah Coles who baptised their children. Francis was not baptised. William was the son of Goodman Sabey who died 1758 before Francis was born.
If James was born 1798 he was only aged 18 when his first daughter Ann was baptised in 1816. Is there any chance of finding his marriage?
Edward Sabey and Mary had a son Francis baptised 1785 in Roxton. I wondered if Edward could be Francis brother. Edward Sabey may have married Mary Fisher 11 May 1778 at Godmanchester, Huntingdon,
A possible son of Francis and Charlotte may have been Thomas Sabey a Shepherd born 1800 Bolnhurst who lived in Godmanchester (he named a son Francis and a daughter Charlotte other ‘family’ names Elizabeth Rebecca, Naomi, Sarah). Thomas married Ann Flowers 1827 in Godmanchester.
At the Baptish Church, Francis Sabey and Charlotte White named their second child Samuel which was not a Bolnhurst name so if Francis came from Bolnhurst he was named after his father.
If Charlotte was born 1767 (birth from burial) at Felmersham she had a brother Samuel (very interesting that Samuel White was a witness to their wedding in Bolnhurst in 1790 which I think is significant to naming of their first son). Charlotte and Samuels father’s name is transcribed as Robythan White which I am sure is an error (wife was Elizabeth). Although Francis and Charlotte only had two of their children births mentioned in the Baptist register they certainly did have other children and could possibly have named a later child Joseph.
Francis definitely had a daughter Dinah 1791 who married James Page in 1813 at Bolnhurst
Francis definitely had a son Samuel 1793 who married an Elizabeth about 1815 perhaps in Keysoe and then Mary (?Dickins 23 Mar 1829 at Keysoe this is submitted)
Francis may have had a son William 1795 Bolnhurst who married Sophia ?Reid about 1822 maybe Easton her Parish.
Francis may have had a son Thomas 1800 Bolhurst the Shepherd mentioned above
Francis definitely had daughter Ann 1801 Bolhurst who married Alexander York in 1829 at Bolnhurst
Francis definitely had daughter Rebecca abt 1803 who married William Covington in 1827 at Bolnhurst
Is there any notes on the marriage above or can you find the marriages of Samuel or William?
Joseph SABEY bach and Lab to Rebecca FISHER or HALL spinster marriage 28 Dec 1814 Colmworth witnesses were Campion Cornish & John Lovel
Rebekah "daughter illegitimate of Sarah Hull" baptised at Colmworth on 30 Sep 1798. Richard Fisher married Sarah Hull 1798 at Colmworth..
Eliz Sabey married Thos Byeway on 31 May 1801 Bolnhurst witness Campion Cornish
Who was the other witness of Elizabeth Sabey to Thomas Byeway?
John Lovel was the other marriage Witness of Joseph and Rececca in 1814
Joseph Sabey widower, to Eliz Lovell widow on 4 Dec 1770, any idea who Elizabeth previous husband was?
Any ideas welcome from all
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.........which seems to tell me that the Beds FHS when sourcing the NBI took that info from the back of the PR from the notes regarding the "register of unbaptised children" ......
The NBI also has a burial of Elizabeth in 1752 which looks to have come from the same source - " child of John Saby born Mar 6 1752, named Elizabeth, died in a few weeks"
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Who was the other witness of Elizabeth Sabey to Thomas Byeway?
It was John Ashwell .... I noted that Elizabeth Ashwell was witness to marriage of Francis Sabey & Charlotte White in 1790, so are these Ashwells linked? Prior to their marriage there's a baptism of Mary Byeway, illegitimate daughter of Elizabeth Sabey, reputed father Thomas Byeway, These parties married 31/5/1801
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Thank you John
This needs some looking at!
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Could that mean that the SEELY records from Thurleigh be SEABY/SABEY records? particularly as there was a Goodman (unusual but a Sabey name) /Thomas Seeley and nb William Seely was also a Tailor.
It could. But as we said at the start of this thread, the occupation is wrong. I haven't come across any instances where Sabey has changed to Seely. But of course perhaps it could be. Up to you to prove it though.
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William privately baptised 1752 (he may have survived but was obviously sickly).
Is there any doubt that he did survive and married Sarah Throssell and died age 75 in 1827?
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Sorry, but there are so many if, could there be, perhaps, and other conditional, angles with various Sabey lines mentioned that it's a days work to try to try to sort them out. Without wishing to be unhelpful, the quick answer is yes, they could. It's up to you to go through all of your possibilities and either rule them out, or try to prove them. I have a programme with all of these names in it, and I can't follow all the names you're raising. John hasn't, so the chance of him being to follow all of this without a great deal of work isn't great.
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Francis definitely had a daughter Dinah 1791 who married James Page in 1813 at Bolnhurst
Francis definitely had a son Samuel 1793 who married an Elizabeth about 1815 perhaps in Keysoe and then Mary (?Dickins 23 Mar 1829 at Keysoe this is submitted)
Francis may have had a son William 1795 Bolnhurst who married Sophia ?Reid about 1822 maybe Easton her Parish.
Francis may have had a son Thomas 1800 Bolhurst the Shepherd mentioned above
Francis definitely had daughter Ann 1801 Bolhurst who married Alexander York in 1829 at Bolnhurst
Francis definitely had daughter Rebecca abt 1803 who married William Covington in 1827 at Bolnhurst
Is there any notes on the marriage above or can you find the marriages of Samuel or William?
Which marriage above? You quote numerous marriages.
William Sabey of Bolnhurst married Sophia Reid otp in Easton Hunts in 1822 per Hunts Marriage Index. You need to consult the parish register to get the exact date
I've mentioned earlier in this thread about Samuel - see reply #50
I have been unable to find a marriage for Samuel Sabey to Elizabeth. Can you help please?
Nor have I. Neither in Beds nor in Hunts. Perhaps they married in Northants where you'd need a look up in Northants Marriage Index. Or perhaps they didn't marry at all, as I can't find a burial for Elizabeth either.
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John, no one could ever say you were unhelpful. I just wondered if the witnesses etc of the marriages of Francis children may help. And David thank you for conforming the Easton marriage which was submitted. The rest was really 'Thinking out loud'
Thank you for your help
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If James was born 1798 he was only aged 18 when his first daughter Ann was baptised in 1816. Is there any chance of finding his marriage?
He wasn't. He was born in 1896. Age 1 1/2 on baptism in Jan 1798.
The transcripts only go up to 1812. After that we're reliant on the IGI and the BVRI which can be found on Ancestry, which covers a few Beds parishes. The marriage wasn't in Hunts. So a search parish by parish using microfilms is the only option (having established which ones are on the IGI and BVRI). This can be done at your nearest Family History Centre.
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Thanks for the full deatils of James birth on the IGI just said James SABY bap 7 Jan 1798 s of William and Sarah at Colmworth
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When you identify a possible anomaly, as you did, and particularly when there are two baptisms on the same day as in this case, which might imply at least one late baptism, then you have to check with the register and not rely on an index.
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But it seems that James was born 1798 the son of William 1757 and Sarah Coles who baptised their children. Francis was not baptised. William was the son of Goodman Sabey who died 1758 before Francis was born.
How sure are you that it was this William who was the son of Goodman? I simply don't know! There were a number of Williams:
- died in Henlow in 1824 age 67 ie born 1757. His will refers to a natural daughter who in 1851 gives her birthplace as Thurleigh in 1774. No baptism of course, even if she had the surname Sabey, which she probably didn't, although she married in Henlow as Sabey. So he might be son of Goodman. Burial age fits. But he can't be the same William who married Sarah Coles. Or might he be?
- in Colmworth in the 1803 Muster List aged 52 with 4 children under 10, married (to Sarah Coles? I don't know, but probably). But if it is the Sarah Coles family then he doesn't seem to be the right age to be the son of Goodman.
- in 1824 Bedford gaol age 75 born Lidlington living at Langford, described as a rogue and a vagabond. Was he the one married to Sarah Coles? I don't know. But the youngest daughter, Edith, of William & Sarah in Colmworth, married in Lidlington. Coincidence? I don't know.
Two possible speculative scenarios:
William b 1757 son of Goodman had an illegitimate dau in Thurleigh and moved to Henlow where he died age 75 in 1827
and
William b Lidlington c 1750 married Sarah Coles in Colmworth where he appeared in the 1803 Muster aged 52, then went off the rails and turned into a rogue and a vagabond
All highly speculative, cloud cuckoo land even, with not a shred of proof. But the ages fit.
But to start with, a few years ago, I think I assumed the same as you've assumed. Until I dug deeper and found inconsistencies which caused me to doubt my original assumption. Assumptions based on an index.
To summarise - I don't know!
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John, no one could ever say you were unhelpful
Hello Hemmum, Where did that come from ?
I just wondered if the witnesses etc of the marriages of Francis children may help.
I can provide the witnesses names no problem, it's up to you to determine if there's a family link. By the way, when & where were the marriages of Francis' children you mention. In your replies there is such a mix of statements & questions it is hard to follow sometime so I miss something signicant. By the way where are you located ? If you are reliant on IGI entries then you miss out on additional clues you can get from parish registers or local transcripts. Why not take a trip to Bedford Archives.
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David + the William Sabey, sheppherd class 4 one hand unfit in Bolnhurst on 1803 muster list
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David + the William Sabey, sheppherd class 4 one hand unfit in Bolnhurst on 1803 muster list
I think he was the 1752 William, son of Joseph and Elizabeth. In fact I'm sure he was!
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Colmworth marriage of 14/11/1785 of William Saby & Sarah Coles of Keysoe, has witnesses William Brown & Soloman Safford.
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Bolnhurst marriage : Joseph Sabey widower, to Eliz Lovell widow on 4 Dec 1770, any idea who Elizabeth previous husband was?
Best guess it was Robert, but I cannot find his burial or the marriage.
Bolnhurst buials show on 29 Oct 1762 John son of Robert & Elizabeth Lovell and on 18 Mar 1769 Sarah daughter of Elizabeth Lovell, widow....... but cannot find any baptism for the children.
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Possibly indicating that the Lovells might have been non-conformist???
Why is it that so many Sabey or Sabey connected marriages can't be found? Can't put them all down to deficient registers
As an aside, I have 29 Beds/Hunts William Sabeys in my database
Have you finished work John, or are you going in tomorrow?
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Morning David.... my last working day is tomorrow, then I'll be singing 'Big Yellow Taxi' .....
.... "you don't know what you've got till it's gone"....
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"working" day may be stretching it a bit. The last day for which you'll be paid to go into the office, perhaps! Make the most of it.
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Edward Sabey and Mary had a son Francis baptised 1785 in Roxton. I wondered if Edward could be Francis brother. Edward Sabey may have married Mary Fisher 11 May 1778 at Godmanchester, Huntingdon,
Francis was baptised in Eaton Socon, not Roxton.
An Edward Sabey "of Eaton Socon" most certainly did marry Mary Fisher at Godmanchester on 11 May 1778 (per a combination of the IGI and Hunts Marriage Index) so I think it's reasonable to assume that they were the parents of the children baptised in Eaton Socon, including Francis. Whether or not this is the Edward baptised in Roxton in 1751 remains to be proved. I can't find his burial.
Richard and Rebecca Sabey baptised two children in Eaton Socon, in 1746 and 1760 (Goodman). There's an enormous gap in which Edward could have been born. A Richard Sabey aged 62 was buried in Eaton Socon in 1819 - was he another unbaptised son of Richard and Rebecca? Richard senior was another son of Joseph and Katherine of Colmworth
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Was Richards wife ?Rebecca Fox d of Will. and Eliz.bap 14 Jun 1719 at Wilden Beds
Did Richard remarry Ann Butler 20 Jul 1767 at at Eaton Socon Beds? I do not have a burial for Rebecca but then possibly did Ann nee Butler remarry as Ann Sabey to James North 13 Jul 1777 at Eaton Socon Beds?
Which could possibly give you an approximate death period for Richard.
I am not sure If this helps me with Francis but it is possible time wise for him to be their cild (he was born cira 1760-63) and his youngest daughter was named Rececca although no child Richard or Edward.
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Witnesses to Sabey marriages. Hoping to ring a bell or two!
Campion Cornish was a witness to the marriage of Elizabeth Sabey to Thomas Byeway in 1801 at Bolnhurst and Joseph Sabey in 1814 at Colmworth. Wonderful name and hopefully not too many around! Who was he and was he related to the Sabey’s? Surprisingly I found very little.
Campion Cornish was a tenant in Bolhurst in 1798 of John Caldecot.
Campion may have married in 1791 to Ann Robinson in 1791 at Bletsoe and had a son George Cornish in 1793 at Bletsoe who later lived at New School Farm, Colmworth with his son Joseph 1820 born Earls Barton Northants
A Campion Cornish was buried 30 Jun 1828 aged 73 (born 1755) at Colmworth and an Ann Cornish was buried 21 Apr 1847 aged 83 (born 1764) at Colmworth possibly his wife nee Robinson.
Their was also a possible burial of daughter or grandaughter of Campion;
Sarah Cornish buried 10 Aug 1818 aged 6 weeks buried in Colnworth. I cannot find baptisms for George or Sarah Cornish perhaps again NC family?
Elizabeth Ashwell was witness to Francis Sabey and Charlotte White marriage in 1790 at Bolhurst
John Ashwell witness to Eliz Sabey and Thos Byeway marriage 1801 at Bolnhurst (plus Campion Cornish)
I found nothing for Elizaabeth Ashwell
John Ashwell was a tenant in 1798 to Jacob Turner Esq at Bolnhurst
John Ashwell and wife Susan had daughters baptised Bolnhurst Mary in 1787 Ann in 1789
The only marriage I found was to Susan Clayton on 1 Dec 1782 at Sandy Beds which unsure about.
Samuel White was the other witness to the marriage of Francis Sabey to Charlotte White and he was probably Charlottes brother born 1770.
I found no baptism in the Bolnhurst for ‘White’ and no marriage for Samuel White in Bolnhurst but there were three other White marriages;
Hephzibah White married John Pratt in 1797 at Bolnhurst (also on Pallots). In 1841 she was b 1776 Bedford she died 1850 Beds
Elizabeth White married Thomas Pestill in 1817 at Bolnhurst. No Pestill baptisms found perhaps she was Charlottes widowed mother or perhaps niece of Charlotte also NC?
Charlotte White married John Whitme in 1819 at Bolnhurst. No baptism found for Charlotte but I did wonder if she may have been a niece of Charlotte White who married Francis?
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John do I understand correctly that you are retiring? If so ‘Good Luck’.
All my friends who have retired say they are now so busy that they don’t know where they found the time to work!
If you have any spare time could you look to see if there are any witnesses or extra information on the marriages of Francis Sabey and Charlotte Whites children
Three marriages in Bolnhurst
Dinah Sabey married James Page 19 Nov 1813 at Bolnhurst
Rebecca Saby married William Covington 7 Nov 1827 Bolnhurst
Ann Sabey married Alexander York 16 Oct 1829 at Bolnhurst
Two marriages in Hunts
William Sabey married Sophia Reid at Easton Hunts 1822 (confirmed David) but a submitted record gives the marriage on 12 Nov 1822 at Bolnhurst. If the marriage was by Banns would these be in the Bolnhurst reigister?
Thomas Sabey married Ann Flowers on 25 Dec 1827 at Godmanchester, Huntingdon, Hunts
Two marriages perhaps in Keysoe as the children were possibly born in Keysoe as Census entries.
Samuel Sabey’s marriage to Elizabeth has not been found but their eldest child Naomi was christened 19 Jul 1815 in Keysoe aged 3 or 4 with her sister so I assume Samuel and Elizabeth married about 1811.
Samuel’s wife Elizabeth must have died after the baptism of her two youngest children in 1825 at Keysoe and before the baptism Samuel's son by his 2nd wife Mary baptised in 1832 at Keysoe.
I do not have the 2nd marriage for Samuel to Mary but there is a submitted marriage for Samuel Sabey to Mary Dickins on 23 Mar 1829 at Keysoe is this marriage on the Keysoe register?
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Edward Sabey and Mary had a son Francis baptised 1785 in Roxton
That baptism was on 18 Nov 1785 at Eaton Socon ! Edward & Mary also baptised there daughters Mary on 10 Mar 1779 (she was buried 14 Aug 1804) & Elizabeth on 22 Dec 1782.
Eaton Socon PR has the banns on 10 May 1778 of Edward Sabey & Mary Fisher of Godmanchester, Hunts.
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There's a burial of Rebecca Sabey on 13 July 1766 at Eaton Socon (but it does not say wife of Richard). On 20 Jul 1767 Richard Sabey, widower married Ann Butley/Butler, spinster.
Richard & Ann baptised Lydia on 29 Apr 1770 & Elizabeth on 23 Oct 1774
A Richard Sabey was buried at Eaton Socon on 23 Feb 1775
On 13 Jul 1777 James North, widower maried Ann Sabey, spinster
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1. Was Richards wife ?Rebecca Fox d of Will. and Eliz.bap 14 Jun 1719 at Wilden Beds
2. Did Richard remarry Ann Butler 20 Jul 1767 at at Eaton Socon Beds? I do not have a burial for Rebecca but then possibly 3.did Ann nee Butler remarry as Ann Sabey to James North 13 Jul 1777 at Eaton Socon Beds?
Which could possibly give you an approximate death period for Richard.
1. Yes 2. yes. 3. Don't know
I have Richard and Rebecca's burials in Eaton Socon. The ones I haven't found are Edward and Mary, although I've found references to Edward being around in 1800-1802
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The one's I haven't found are Edward and Mary, although I've found references to Edward being around in 1800-1802
Is perhaps because Edward's wife Mary remarried? (or someone thought she had)
and Edwards death was assume to be 1800? But of course that would only be if Mary was a widow then her burial would be as Mary Hall?
Mary Sabey married Richard Hall 23 Jun 1800 at Eaton Socon Beds
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That Mary wasn't the widow of Edward, who was being paid money by Eaton Socon Overseers later than her marriage date.
It looks as though he was connected to the workhouse as he was paid largish amounts for distribution to the inmates
eg
Pd Edwd Sabey 2 Week's pay 11/13/0
Pd Edwd Sabey for the use of a woman out of the House (?) 0/9/6
Pd Edwd Sabey 2 Week's pay for 37 Paupers 12/5/0
Dec 1800
Edwd Sabey a do 1/5/3
Do for 42 Paupers at the Poor House 21/0/0
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Mary Sabey married Richard Hall 23 Jun 1800 at Eaton Socon Beds
That Eaton Socon marriage has Richard Hall, bach to Mary Sabey, spinster
Two more from Eaton Socon banns;
20 Oct 1776 John Sabey & Elizabeth Jarvis, both of Eaton
14 Jun 1778 Humphrey Finch,widower & Sarah Sabey of Roxton, widow
Neither marriage took place at Eaton Socon or Roxton
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Found this marriage at Keysoe on 29 Jan 1832 of William Day to Naomi Sabey, witnesses Samuel Bull & Martha Dickins. Is she the daughter of Samuel Sabey mentioned earlier ?
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Naomi remarries at Colmworth in 1842, father given as SamuelSabey.
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Thanks John & Steven. Interesting that one of the witnesses was Martha Dickens who may well have been connected to Naomi's stepmother Mary Dickens
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‘Found this marriage at Keysoe on 29 Jan 1832 of William Day to Naomi Sabey, witnesses Samuel Bull & Martha Dickins. Is she the daughter of Samuel Sabey mentioned earlier?’
Indeed she is and thank you for the witnesses. As Steven says Naomi remarried;
Naomi DAY a widow d of Samuel Sabey to William STEWART bach Lab s of Levi a Farmer married on 27 May 1842 Colmworth
Naomi and William Day had one daughter Elizabeth born abt 1833 who was with her in 1841.
Naomi and William Stewart had six children baptised at Keysoe.
Two interesting things about the witness Martha Dickins
Firstly, Naomi’s father Samuel Sabey may have remarried Mary Dickins on 23 Mar 1829 Keysoe (submitted). Naomi’s father Samuel is married to Mary born 1790 Keysoe on the census. As the marriage has not been found I do not know if Mary was a widow when she married Samuel they had one son John Francis Sabey. (Francis after Samuel’s father). I have not found Martha Dickin but assume she is somehow related.
Also in 1841 Naomi’s sister Rebecca Sabey bap 1825 Keysoe is a servant for Henry DICKENS Bricklayer born 1796 and Elizabeth Dickens 1806.
I have not found out much about Henry Dickins but Henry and Sarah Dickins of Gt Staunton buried daughter Deborah at Little Staugnton in 1792 and named a son George in 1794 and a daughter Sarah in 1796 at Litte Staugton Baptist. NC family again! Perhaps Henry 1796 was Henry Senior’s son?
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Firstly, Naomi’s father Samuel Sabey may have remarried Mary Dickins on 23 Mar 1829 Keysoe (submitted). Naomi’s father Samuel is married to Mary born 1790 Keysoe on the census. As the marriage has not been found I do not know if Mary was a widow when she married Samuel
Has it been looked for in the only place where it'll be found if it really was in Keysoe? In the parish register.
A few years ago the LDS had a clean up of the IGI by deleting some duplicate entries. Unfortunately, for some reason that totally escapes me, they deleted the extracted entries and left the member submitted entries. So you have to view the microfilm to see if the submitted entry is real or if it's a figment of the member's imagination. This one looks real, but who knows? There's only one way to find out.
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In reply #45 on this thread I said....
There was a second marriage for Samuel Sabey, widower to Mary Dickins on 23 Mar 1829 at Keysoe, witnesses Geoge Sabey & Ann Saby
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Hi John
Thank that is fantastic.
Sorry missed it on 45!
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There was a second marriage for Samuel Sabey, widower to Mary Dickins on 23 Mar 1829 at Keysoe, witnesses Geoge Sabey & Ann Saby
Ann could have been Samuel's daughter, as she didn't marry until later in 1829.
But who was George Sabey? Another unbaptised brother of Samuel, son of Francis, perhaps? If so, like Samuel, he's the first George in this part of Beds. Was he the George Sabey who married Charlotte Farley at Bedford St Paul on 22 Nov 1830?
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Meant to say, both witnesses signed their names, George spelt SABEY & Ann spelt SABY if they can from the same family then surely they'd have spelt them the same? Samuel signed SABEY
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The only thing I could add to that (Cat amongst the pigeons) is the;
George Saby aged 33 born abt 1806 resident Bedford, imprisoned for a year hard Labour fully committed 8th Feb.1839. Crime Embezzlement. Reads and writes well.
I could not find him on the George 1806 on the 1841 census only another GS born abt 1804 living in Ashwell Herts married to Ann.
Ann could have been Samuel's daughter, as she didn't marry until later in 1829.Ann spelt SABY if they can from the same family then surely they'd have spelt them the same?
Did Ann Sabey sign on her marriage to Alexander York 16 Oct 1829 at Bolnhurst?
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Ann could have been Samuel's daughter, as she didn't marry until later in 1829.
If she's the Ann Sabey who married Alexander York on 16 Oct 1829 then she looks like she's daughter of Charlotte Sabey (ne White who married Francis Sabey in 1790) as Alex b 1803 Colmworth & children all born Bolnhurst have Charlotte born 1763 living with them on 1851 census. Seems Ann was buried 28 Nov 1850 age 50 at Bolnhurst.
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Sorry, I meant Samuel's sister, not daughter
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Hi Hemum
Thanks for your message of 20th Oct re Peter Sabey at Roxton sorry taken so long to reply computer probs & holiday in the sun.
Have dug out all my Sabey notes & will look at latest posts to see if I can add anything to the mix. I have a copy of marriage of Charlotte Whites parents marriage which makes her mother look as if she is Elizabeth ASPETALL (widow)
Will be in touch soon.
Lynn S
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Hi Lynn
Great to hear from you, and am very interested in the marriage certificate for Charlotte's parents.
I thought perhaps Charlotte was baptised;
Charlotte White bap 1 Nov 1767 d of Robythan and Elizabeth at Felmersham Beds.
I don't know if you agree? If this is her baptism I am not sure about her fathers name? Perhaps a misstranscription?
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Rubython is a surname that shows up occasionally in that area (perhaps more Turvey/Harrold).
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Rubython is a surname that shows up occasionally in that area (perhaps more Turvey/Harrold).How interesting I will look at that!
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Hi Hemmum
Just read thro ALL SABEY posts (brain a bit scrambled now) I was in contact with an American in 2006 who sent me info on Charlotte White as he was descended from William Sabey who married Sophia Reed. The marriage for Charlottes' parents is Bolnhurst 11/10/1766 by licence witnesses maybe John Norfield & Samuel Peck but the copy is very poor so register would need checking. The American contact took a copy in Salt Lake City which is hard to read.
The surname for Elizabeth could be ASPITALL or ASPETALL.
I think the Roxton Sabey branch merits further looking at especially with the family names cropping up.
Lynn S
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Hi Lynn
Thanks for the information. Who was the Groom who married Elizabeth Aspitall?
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Robythan White, widower married Elizabeth Aspitall, signs Asptull, widow on 11/10/1766 at Bolnhurst. She may have been married to William Aspital who was buried at Bolhurst on 17/04/1762; these baptised Elizabeth in Feb 1761 & Sarah in Dec 1762, William was a blacksmith.
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John Thank you very much! This takes us forward. Any idea who William Aspital married so we can get a maiden name for Elizabeth?
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Why not first check the IGI extracted for Bolnhurst? Asptall is the spelling variation 1760
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Thank you for the variation. I had tried Aspital with no result.
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William - marriage - Bolnhurst - 1750-62 gives you the required answer. That way you avoid having to worry about the 57 varieties of Aspital
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Hi Hemmum
Looks like its Elizabeth Elms who married William Asptall at Bolnhurst on 21/6/1760. Will see what else I can find.
Regards Lynn S
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If you have any spare time could you look to see if there are any witnesses or extra information on the marriages of Francis Sabey and Charlotte White's children
Three marriages in Bolnhurst (all are bachelor & spinster)
Dinah Sabey married James Page 19 Nov 1813 at Bolnhurst
witnesses John Wall & Thomas Ednap?
Rebecca Saby married William Covington 7 Nov 1827 Bolnhurst
witnesses Ann Sabey & Richard Kilpin (parish clerk he signs lots others)
Ann signs her name Sabey
Ann Sabey married Alexander York 16 Oct 1829 at Bolnhurst
witnesses G Sabey & RIchard Kilpin
PS Ann signs her name but the b e y are all as one so cannot determine if its Saby or Sabey
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Hi John
Just seen this post re James Page & Dinah Sabey. I have a copy of the marriage & the witnesses are John WALKER & Thos.? EDROP ? I'm really not sure about 2nd witness name as the christian name is written as just 2 letters & surname is a real scrawl. There are 2 other marriages on the copy & different witnesses for each.
Cheers Lynn S
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Hi John
Just seen on 1841 census in Bolnhurst Joseph Edrop miller born1791 with Thomas Sabey aged 15 in same household.
Cheers Lynn S
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Just seen on 1841 census in Bolnhurst Joseph Edrop miller born 1791 with Thomas Sabey aged 15 in same household.I think he was;
Thomas Sabey s of William and Sophia b born 13 Aug 1823 bap 28 May 1843 at Bolnhurst Bedfordshire
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John, thank you for the wedding witnesses.
A paticuarly interesting witness was ‘G Sabey’ who may have been George Sabey who also witnesses Samuel Sabeys 2nd marriage in May 1829.
Samuel was Ann Sabey’s brother and as most of Francis and Charlotte's children named a child George I wonder if he was also a child of Francis.
Ann Sabey married Alexander York 16 Oct 1829 at Bolnhurst
witnesses G Sabey & RIchard Kilpin
Who was George Sabey?
A George Sabey married Charlotte Farley 22 Nov 1830 St Paul Bedford
George Sabey St Peter Bedford Inhabitant Householder of Fitz William Street. Voter 1832 & 1833
I cannot see George or Charlotte Sabey on the census or that they had children baptised in Bolnhurst.
I did find a Goal record which gives a rough year of birth of 1806
George Saby aged 33 trial 16 Mar 1838. Recd 6 Feb fully committed 8 Feb 1839. Reads and wites well. Crime Embezzlement 1 year Hard Labour Imprisonment Bedford New House of Correction. 5 ft 3inch Brown hair sallow complex.
Newspaper Articles 23rd and 24th March 1838
George Sabey was indicted for embezzling two sums of £4, and £3 7s., the property of his master, Charles Higgins- landlord of the Swan Hotel in Bedford: the prisoner was my employ for 8 y ears, his duty was to bottle wine, draw off spirits, and deliver them in the town. 1 ordered him to keep a book in which to all wines and spirits to be taken out. I sent him to 2 or 3 places to receive the money for the bills made out etc.
There is a mention of him writing a letter but not of being married etc.
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I think he was;
Thomas Sabey s of William and Sophia b born 13 Aug 1823 bap 28 May 1843 at Bolnhurst Bedfordshire
I agree that he was the son of William & Sophia. I show him in 1851 as living in Pertenhall, birthplace Easton, Hunts. What's the source of his date of birth?
Later - found it now in the rogue batch on the IGI which says he was baptised in Macon, Georgia, USA! The problem is that it doesn't show up in a search for Bolnhurst. You can only find it by getting at the batch via the Hugh Wallis site. Bring back the old IGI!!! You don't do searches any more. You have an experience. Ancestry is as bad.
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Have a look at this topic
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=664148.msg5094884#msg5094884
I previously had the old record but it and others had changed from Bolnhurst to Georgia. I reported the issue and apparently they are going to address the issue!!
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I've put up Bolnhurst from July 1837 at http://stevengibbs.me.uk/BaptismRegistersPage.htm
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David
I am just going over all the old posts as I am sure I have missed some bits!!
I noticed one of your replies regarding William Sabey (one of the many);
Two possible speculative scenarios:
William b 1757 son of Goodman had an illegitimate dau in Thurleigh and moved to Henlow where he died age 75 in 1827
- died in Henlow in 1824 age 67 ie born 1757. His will refers to a natural daughter who in 1851 gives her birthplace as Thurleigh in 1774. No baptism of course, even if she had the surname Sabey, which she probably didn't, although she married in Henlow as Sabey. So he might be son of Goodman. Burial age fits. But he can't be the same William who married Sarah Coles. Or might he be?
and
William b Lidlington c 1750 married Sarah Coles in Colmworth where he appeared in the 1803 Muster aged 52, then went off the rails and turned into a rogue and a vagabond
I found this newspaper article and wondered if it may help you with Henlow (not my part of the family). You may have seen it anyway:
Saturday 09 November 1816 Agricultural Show.
For Labourer in Husbandry Class No2.
To William Sabey of Henlow for having worked as Labourer for 40 Years the same Farm without Interruption the second Premium Three Guineas.
If William Sabey worked on the same farm from 1776-1816 he was unlikely to have had children baptised in Colnworth. You do not mention the name of the ‘natural daughter’. Would there be a bastardy order for her as she would have needed support?
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Thanks Hemmum, No I didn't have that snippet which certainly pins down when he arrived in Henlow with some accuracy, and rules him out as being the husband of Sarah Coles. His daughter was Elizabeth, who married John Daniel in Henlow on 21 Apr 1797, and who in 1851 living in Henlow gave her age as 76 birthplace Thurleigh. She had a daughter Sarah Daniel born 1800 in Henlow who married Robert Burrows in Henlow in 1817
In his will dated 26 Oct 1818 William Sabey of Henlow, labourer, gave...
- to my natural daughter Elizabeth Daniel, the wife of John Daniel, labourer, of Henlow, all my copyhold estate at Henlow having first surrendered the same for the use of my will, all that cottage or house and barn, garden, yard as now in my own and Thomas Cooper's occupation, unto the said Elizabeth Daniel, and I also give to the said Elizabeth Daniel all my clothes and linen
- to my granddaughter Sarah Burrows wife of Robert Burrows of Biggleswade, all my household furniture.
So he doesn't seem to have a wife who survived him or any other children
He may have married as there's a burial in Henlow on 21 Dec 1791 of Ann Sabey, wife of William. There were no other Williams living in Henlow at that time. Predictably, being a Sabey, there's no sign of a marriage! Might check to see if he married in Georgia!!!
He is the only crossover that I have between the Henlow Sabeys and the north Beds Sabeys.
The fact that his daughter married in Henlow implies to me that she may well have been living with her father.
His dates fit well with him being the son of Goodman, baptised in 1757 in Colmworth
Must have a look, as you suggest, to see if there's any bastardy entry which has come online since I last looked at him 5 years ago.
Thanks for the suggestion
David
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‘Looked at this bastardy bond this afternoon; dated 14 May 1767 Francis Elms of Bolnhurst, blacksmith is firmly bound to Soloman Safford - church warden & Thomas Russel - overseer to poor, for the amount of £80 regarding obligation toward Mary Saby of Bolnhurst, single woman who declared on oath that she is with child, & child is likely to be born bastard & that Francis Elms is father of child. In presence of French ? Flanders & Thomas Claridge’
This is just ‘Thinking out loud’ Just a few ideas to put in the mix to be considered.
Francis Elms was bound (‘bound’ I assume meant that Soloman and Thomas ensured Frances Elms paid maintenance for the child) to Soloman Safford, church warden in 1767.
A Soloman Safford also witnessed the wedding 18 years later of:
William SABY to Sarah COLES 14 Nov 1785 at Colmworth witnesses William Brown & Soloman Safford.
This William could not be John the baptist son William who did not marry or have children and left is property to his brother and sisters children.
A Soloman Safford married 1777 in Thurleigh to Ann Cowdall they had children baptised in Colnworth 1779-1786
So perhaps the same Soloman Safford who was the church warden in Bolnhurst was later in Colnworth.
Francis Elms the father of Mary Sabey’s child (possibly Francis Sabey) later married Mary Hartop 11 Oct 1769 at Bolnhurst Beds.
IF Mary Sabey was the daughter of John Sabey the Baptist then her sister was Sarah Sabey who married Thomas Hartop.
I could not find a baptism for Mary Hartop but there is a submitted record (I know, beware of submitted records! But it may hold some truth).
Is it possible that Mary Hartop’s brother Thomas married Sarah Sabey?
Mary Hartop bap 29 March 1741 Keysoe d of Sarah and Thomas.
Mary Hartop had a brother Thomas Hartop born 1738 at Keysoe he married 18 Feb 1760 in Keysoe to Judith Flandor. Judith was buried 1764. No children.
Was Thomas Hartop a farmer of Keysoe aged 36 (born 1735) a widow when he married Sarah Sabey in 1777?
witness Francis Elms (possibly Thomas Hartop’s brother in law and husband of Mary Hartop)
Interesting snippet from Bolnhurst PR baptisms; 7 Aug 1757 John, the supposed son of Thomas Hartop of Kaisho (Keysoe) Row by Mary Fensham of this parish, spinster.
John the child of Mary Fensham would have been born during Thomas Hartop’s first marriage to Judith Flandor
The Sabey bastardy bond was witnessed by French ? Flanders
. Were bonds usually witnessed by family members?
Could this French? Flander have been a relation of Judith Flandor the wife of Thomas Hartop?
I see that children of John and Mary Flanders of Keysoe were named at Little Staughton Baptist 1775-1791 and that there were other Flander members at the Bapist Church which is where Francis Sabey had his first two children named, so perhaps the Flanders were also Baptists.
Off the subject and just an aside on the name Flander (thinking outloud) are these Sabey records?
Robert Beeby married Elizabeth Flanders 7 Apr 1717 Bolnhurst
Francis Beeby s of Robert and Elizabeth bap 1 Mar 1719 at Bolnhurst
Robert Sabey was a church warden in Bolnhurst in 1684 obviously well before 1717.
Francis Elms and Mary nee Hartop had three children baptised in Bolnhurst from 1770-1780 and Francis Elms witnessed the second wedding of Joseph Sabey in 1770 so the family must have remained friends!
Also it seems that Francis Elms bastard son Francis Sabey married Francis Elms sister Elizabeth Elms’s daughter Charlotte White.
But why would John not have made a bequest to his grandson Francis, if indeed he was his grandson, notwithstanding that he was illegitimate?
Just an idea.
IF Francis Sabey was the base son of Mary and grandson of John, his mother Mary may had died in 1774 before John wrote his will 1777.
As his mother had died perhaps Francis was bought up by his father Francis Elms or the Elms family. Francis Elms had a financial liability via the £80 Bond (not sure to what age a child would need support. If Francis was born 1767 he would have been 7 when his mother died )
Perhaps John Sabey the Baptist felt Francis Sabey was Francis Elms responsibility so made no provision for him.
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Hi David
He may have married as there's a burial in Henlow on 21 Dec 1791 of Ann Sabey, wife of William
I am sure you have looked at this;
William Sabey a servant married Ann Watts 9 Nov 1778 Risely Beds FreeBDM.
This marriage was same year and place as possibly his sister Hannah.
Hannah Sabey married Thomas Abyss a servant man 20 Apr 1778 at Riseley All Saints Hannah was under age with the consent of her mother FreeBDM
IF her father was Goodman he died 1758
Was this William's sister;
Hannah SABY d of Goodman and Elizabeth bap 27 May 1759 at Colmworth
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Thanks for that Hemmum - I think you've nailed them. There's also a baptism of Elizabeth Watts, mother Ann Watts, in Bolnhurst on 1 Jun 1777. It all fits! I'll do a few more checks, but it looks good.
The extracted IGI has so many entries missing now it's almost too unreliable. Must remember to look at Freereg more often, although coverage still isn't great.
David
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Happy to help! Thanks for your help with Francis.
I love the newspaper they put 'meat on the bones'
There is a very interesting piece in 1827 of Peter and Charles Sabey of Gt Stukely who gave evidence in the murder of Rev Joshua Waterhouse who sounded a rum old soul who would not let his parishioners attend church in their work clothes. No wonder they were NC.
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Mary Hartop had a brother Thomas Hartop born 1738 at Keysoe he married 18 Feb 1760 in Keysoe to Judith Flandor. Judith was buried 1764. No children.
Thomas & Judith Hartupp did baptise a daughter Mary on 10 May 1761 at Keysoe.
She may well be the Mary Hartop, spinster buried 9 Aug 1804
Judith Hartop died 1 May 1764 in 24th year of age (as per Keysoe MI's transcribed by BFHS)
Husband Thomas Hartop died 5 Feb 1780 age 46 (again as per MI's)
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Thanks John
Judith Hartop died 1 May 1764 in 24th year of age (as per Keysoe MI's transcribed by BFHS)
Husband Thomas Hartop died 5 Feb 1780 age 46 (born 1734) (again as per MI's)
Sarah Sabey's husband;
Beds Archives probate records have the Letters of Administration for Thomas Hartop farmer of Keysoe who was buried 7 Feb 1780 who died intestate - where Sarah Hartop of Keysoe- widow; William Peppercorn of Bolnhurst farmer; & William Sabey of Keysoe. farmer swore on oath who she was and which was granted on 18 Apr 1780 where the estate was not worth more than £300.
So the Thomas Hartop buried was one and the same?
Not sure where it gets me as neither Judith or her daugter were French? Flanders who witnessed the bond. But hey ho! who knows what means something later. Thank you
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John the child of Mary Fensham would have been born during Thomas Hartop’s first marriage to Judith Flandor
No he wasn't... Thomas Hartop married Judith Flanders age 20 on 18 Feb 1760 at Keysoe. The Bolnhurst baptism of his bastard son John by Mary Fensham was on 7 Aug 1757.
Note Robert Flanders was a witness to that marriage; he also was a witness to the Admon dated 30 Jun 1753, made by Eleanor Hartop, widow of Thomas Hartop senior, husbandman who was buried 1 Jan 1753 (died 22 Dec 1752 aged 82) in favour of only son Thomas Hartop. Eleanor was buried 13 Apr 1757.
** later; Judy Flanders is daughter of Robert & Mary Flanders baptised 2 Aug 1740 at Keysoe. Robert married Mary Barber on 4 Nov 1722 at Keysoe & they baptised 6 children there between 1723 & 1744. *** One was John baptised 25/9/1744 could be witness at Francis Elms & Mary Hartop's marriage in Oct 1769.
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Hannah Sabey married Thomas Abyss a servant man 20 Apr 1778 at Riseley All Saints Hannah was under age with the consent of her mother FreeBDM (NO Freereg!)
IF her father was Goodman he died 1758
Was this William's sister;
Hannah SABY d of Goodman and Elizabeth bap 27 May 1759 at Colmworth
I'm sure that she was the daughter of Goodman, born after he'd died. Her mother went on to marry Joseph Mills, and it looks as though they baptised a child in Riseley, although parents' names are missing.
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At Colmworth marriage of 22/11/1763 Joseph Mills of Riseley & Elizabeth Sabey, widow (previously Elizabeth Valentine who married Goodman Saby in June 1753) the witnesses are William Flanders & Thomas Charter? William Flanders may be son of Robert & Mary but no proof, there is a baptism for him age 19 on 9 Mar 1755 so he's born 1736, so he could be. He married Ann Creed at Keysoe in 1751 & they were baptising children at Keysoe from 1751.
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Joseph & Elizabeth Mills baptised 5 children at Risely between 1764 & 1779 and buried 3 of them, if you want the detail let me know.
Also Tomas & Hannah Abyss/Abbis had 3 children born at Riseley between 1779 & 1784, again if you want details let me know
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Thanks John, but I don't need the extra detail. But it does confirm that the Sabey family moved to Riseley at some time after the death of Goodman - probably after Elizabeth his widow married Joseph Mills
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Who was George Sabey?
A George Sabey married Charlotte Farley 22 Nov 1830 St Paul Bedford
The Bedford St Paul marriage has him bachelor & her spinster, & they both were from that parish; witnesses Eliza Farley & Thomas Lovelidge (he's on lots of others). Cannot see any baptisms in St Pauls or St Peters or find them on census or their deaths. However there is a burial at Bedford Workhouse of Charlotte Sabey aged 7 on 1 March 1842, so born 1835. Is she their daughter? The source of this comes from The Eureka publication Bedford Union Workhouse births & deaths. That date 1/3/1842 is date of death, the burial was on 5/3/1842 at Keysoe Meeting burial ground as Charlotte was from Keysoe, but still cannot find her on 1841 census.
Another Sabey burial is of Rebecca aged 60 on 17/6/1851, she died 15/6/1851 & was from Bolnhurst.
The booklet has 3 illegitimate births from Ruth Saby of Keysoe, first William in 2/4/1840 baptised 10/4, next Alice born 26/6/1842 baptised 22/6 & last Betsey born 9/2/1845 baptised 16/2.
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However there is a burial at Bedford Workhouse of Charlotte Sabey aged 7 on 1 March 1842, so born 1835. Is she their daughter? The source of this comes from The Eureka publication Bedford Union Workhouse births & deaths. That date 1/3/1842 is date of death, the burial was on 5/3/1842 at Keysoe Meeting burial ground as Charlotte was from Keysoe, but still cannot find her on 1841 census.
Charlotte was the first of Ruth's illegitimate children. She was age 5, living with her mother in Keysoe, in 1841
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Another Sabey burial is of Rebecca aged 60 on 17/6/1851, she died 15/6/1851 & was from Bolnhurst.
This was Rebecca Fisher alias Hull as per replies 19 and 22 in this thread
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David is spot on
Charlotte Sabey born 1835 is living with her mother Ruth and brother William 1840 living in Keysoe on the 1841 census as ‘Laboy’ (I corrected it on Ancestry).
Alice was new to me and was not with her mother Ruth in 1851 so I think her death was registered death Oct 1844 Bedford.
Ruth Sabey had six (2 died) children before she married Thomas Yerrall a widow in 1851, although her last two children born before the marriage were baptised as Yerrall.
I have Betsey Sabey's 1845 birth certificate which shows she was born in Bedford Workhouse, no father named.
When Betsey married in 1864 (after Thomas Yerrall's death) Betsey did not name a father.
On Betsey’s own daughter's birth certificate in 1868, Betsey gives her name as Betsey Sabey GUEST formerly YERRAL.
In 1851 Thomas Yerral born 1795 Colmworth and his son William Yerrall born 1836 Colmworth were lodgers of Ruth Sabey and her children. I cannot find Thomas or William on 1841 census.
Thomas Yerral may have married Edith Chapman who was buried in Colmworth in 1838, so perhaps he did father some of Ruth’s children but did not marry her until 1851, but I doubt that he would have named a son William from his first marriage and then another William with Ruth.
Back to George Sabey, if he was sentenced to a years hard labour in March 1839 he should have been out of prison in 1841 (but not found on census). I tried to check his address before he went into prison for him or his wife;
George Sabey St Peter Bedford Inhabitant Householder of Fitz William St Voter 1832 & 1833
The address search on FindMyPast showed a few blank pages in Bedford St Peter??
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Have a look at this topic
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=664148.msg5094884#msg5094884
I previously had the old record but it and others had changed from Bolnhurst to Georgia. I reported the issue and apparently they are going to address the issue!!
Search the IGI for Maria, tick exact box, and Meppershall or Meppershall Bedfordshire. There are hundreds of Marias all with distinctly Latino sounding names. Another foul up, for want of a better expression. The more I see of the IGI the more I'm reminded of the old maxim, If it ain't broke don't fix it. All I wanted was Maria Sabey who married Henry Usher!
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IF Francis Sabey 1767 was the son of Francis Elms 1741 Bolnhurst and Mary Sabey buried 1774 and
IF Mary Sabey born 1742 was the unbaptised child was John Sabey the Baptist Farmer of Blacknoe Farm in Thurleigh
Who was her father John Sabey who married in 1740 at Wilden Elizabeth Hull/Hall from Thurleigh?
This question was asked by David
And another question which has troubled me for years is who was John of Backnoe house? There were two John Sabeys both born at about the same time - one who started baptising children in Northill in 1739 with wife Jane, and the other who married in Wilden in 1741 and I assume was the John in Backnoe House. Which of these Johns is the one who was baptised in Colmworth in 1716 cannot be determined. Whichever it was, I'm a baptism short!
Was Joseph Sabey (who married three times) who may have also been NC John’s brother?
There are two unnamed unbaptised children of Joseph Sabey... born ...19 Aug 1701 and born 20 Feb 1703 in the Appendix 'register of Bolnhurst Beds
Were these two children John (of Backnoe House the Baptist) and Joseph who married three times (possibly NC)??
John of Backnoe House died 1781 in Thurleigh so it is not impossible for him to have been born in either 1701 or 1703 and died aged 80 or 78 and to have married in 1740 aged 37 or 39 years old
John’s wife Elizabeth Hull could have been d of Rob and Eliz bap 22 Jan 1720 Thurleigh .
Her father Rob Hull a Farmer buried 24 Sep 1723 Thurleigh
Strangley Joseph Sabey first marriage was Elizabeth Hall in 1751 at Bolnhurst
There is a possible Baptism for John Sabey;
John Seeby s of Wm and Susan bap 8 Nov 1713 St Peter Trinity Thurleigh FBDM (alternative name Seely)
The baptism of John in 1713 is the only baptism for a child of William with the mother Susan.
Susan is not a given name for the Sabey children but Sarah is.
There is no burial for Susan Sabey or Seely.
John Sabey of Backnoe House named his eldest son William and a daughter Sarah.
Is it possible that this is a transcription error and the mothers name should be Sarah??
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There are two unnamed unbaptised children of Joseph Sabey... born ...19 Aug 1701 and born 20 Feb 1703 in the Appendix 'register of Bolnhurst Beds
Were these two children John (of Backnoe House the Baptist) and Joseph who married three times (possibly NC)??
Joseph baptised a son John in Colmworth in 1716 so I think it unlikely that he would have had an earlier John who was still living. I think it was this John that married Jane, possibly Tingey, and moved to Northill.
Joseph also baptised a son Joseph in 1710 who moved to Southill. Yeah, I know, he might have been the thrice married Joseph, but I doubt it. I think Joseph in Bolnhurst was the son of Thomas and Sarah (Wallis), who was baptised in Colmworth in 1726. Thomas and Sarah seem to have then moved to Bolnhurst as they baptised two children in Bolnhurst, and Thomas was buried in Bolnhurst in 1736.
You've doubtless noticed that "old" Joseph wasn't particularly prompt about baptising his children - he baptised four in one go in 1711 in Colmworth although some or all of these could have been born in Bolnhurst as his earliest known child Thomas (above) was baptised there in 1695, so two of these might well have been the two children born in 1701 and 1703. I have no idea as to the possible birthdates of these four, or indeed of Joseph baptised in 1710. All five could have been born anywhere between 1696 and 1711. The one that I'm sure of is Luke, of which there's only one in this timescale, and he ended up in Southill., so I think it reasonable to assume that two of his brothers also went with him to that part of mid Beds, as did his younger half sister Catherine.
David
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Is it possible that this is a transcription error and the mothers name should be Sarah??
Unlikely that it's a transcription error, as it was done by Beds Records Office as was, after comparing the PR with the BT. More likely that if it really should be Sarah the error is in the PR. But it looks as though the transcriber couldn't read whether it was Seeby or Seely. If it's Seely then it was a big career change for that family, from tailors to reasonably prosperous farmers
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Hi David
Thanks for your help.
If it's Seely then it was a big career change for that family, from tailors to reasonably prosperous farmers
In a close time frame I have;
John Seeby s of Wm and Susan bap 8 Nov 1713 St Peter Trinity Thurleigh FBDM (alternative name Seely)
Jn Seely s of Wm and Elz buried 7 Jan 1713/14 Thurleigh St Peter FreeBDM buried 1714 as BFHS
Jn Seely s of Wm a Tailor and Elz buried 15 Jan 1715 Thurleigh St Peter FreeBDM
Lucy Seely d of William bap 13 Jan 1716/17 Thurleigh Beds FreeBDM
Mary Seely d of William buried 30 Mar 1720 Thurleigh St Peter FreeBDM
John Seeby who was baptised in 1713 has the mother as Susan not Elizabeth.
The John Seely buried 15 Jan 1715 father was William a Tailor and married to Elizabeth.
Are these children of the same William? Where there two couples around this time?
Often a trade is given for a father to differentiate between them if there was more that one William baptising children.
Just another thought or two!
John the farmer of Blacknoe made Edward Stockdale a Draper of Bedford the Guardian of his son James in 1777. I wondered why John did not choose a family member. From the wills I found Edward Stockdale was the only son of John a Tailor. Again I think this family was NC.
Even in a farming family would it be strange for a son to trained for a different occupation?
Perhaps the farm could not support multiple sons and their families but I can see little evidence of the Sabey family in Thurleigh before 1718 apart from (if Seely are Saby) the marriage of John Seely to Mary Parkinson in 1698.
As an aside there may be a link from Henlow to Thurleigh
The wife of John Sabey was Elizabeth Hull possibly d of Rob and Eliz bap 22 Jan 1720 Thurleigh.
Elizabeth's father, Rob Hull a Farmer buried 24 Sep 1723 Thurleigh.
(did John Sabey work on Roberts farm?)
Elizabeth Hall may have had a bother Robert Hall bap 6 Feb 1725 Henlow
Their father Robert may have married Elizabeth Johnson in 16 May 1725 at Henlow
There is of course the marriage of Joseph Sabey to Elizabeth Hull?
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As an aside there may be a link from Henlow to Thurleigh
The wife of John Sabey was Elizabeth Hull possibly d of Rob and Eliz bap 22 Jan 1720 Thurleigh.
Elizabeth's father, Rob Hull a Farmer buried 24 Sep 1723 Thurleigh.
(did John Sabey work on Roberts farm?)
Elizabeth Hall may have had a bother Robert Hall bap 6 Feb 1725 Henlow
Their father Robert may have married Elizabeth Johnson in 16 May 1725 at Henlow
You've lost me here Hemmum; If Elizabeth's father Robert Hull, farmer was buried Thurleigh in Sept 1723 how could he marry Elizabeth Johnson on Henlow in May 1725 ?
BLARS have the Admon for Robert Hull, dairyman of Thurleigh ref 1723/23, I will take a look next time I'm there, however it might not tell us more than that wife Elizabeth swears she's his wife/widow.
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John. Whoops yes! Silly me!
Thank you for the offer to look at the Admon for Robert Hull, dairyman of Thurleigh ref 1723/23
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I'm not convinced that Hall and Hull are necessarily interchangeable
David
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Can I please ask if there are any details for the marriage;
Charlotte White married John Whitme on 9th Feb 1819 at Bolnhurst.
On the 1841-1851 census John Dickins Whitmee born 1797 is a Farmer of 228 Acres is married to Charlotte born 1799 at Eaton Socon living Church Farm Bolnhurst.
John Dickin Whitmee. Probate died 4 July 1877 Keysoe Effects under £1,500. (Charlotte had died previously)
I could not find a baptism for Charlotte White born about 1799 at Eaton Socon but wonder if she may have been a niece or related to Charlotte White born 1767 who married Francis Sabey in 1790 at Bolnhurst. Charlotte's brother Samuel may have witnessed her wedding but I have not found a marriage for Samuel.
I think Charlotte White's (the younger) husband John Whitmee may have been;
John Dickins Whitmee born 5 Apr 1796 son of Samuel Whitmee of College Farm Keysoe and his wife Mary Dickins. His birth is registered on Dr Williams Library Non conformist Register
I do not know where his parents married as Mary's nee name only came from the birth registration.
There are the other three White / Sabey / Dickins links;
Francis Sabey and Charlotte White's son Samuel second marriage in 1829 at Keysoe was to Mary Dickins born about 1790 at Keysoe.
Originally (because of the submitted record) I thought she was a widow and vainly searched for her previous marriage. John kindly gave the details the marriage and whereas Samuel was a widow Mary Dickins was not. I have not found a baptism for Mary either in the established Church or NC.
I wonder if Mary Dickins who married Samuel Sabey was related to Mary Dickins the mother of John Dickins Whitmee
Another Dickins link is that a Martha Dickins witnessed the marriage Samuel's daughter Naomi in 1832 at Keysoe.
She may have been Martha Williamson who married Stephen Dickins in 1815 at Riseley
Also in 1841 Samuel’s daughter Rebecca Sabey was a servant for/with Henry DICKENS a Bricklayer born 1796 and Elizabeth Dickens 1806.
I have not found out much about Henry Dickins but there was a Henry and Sarah Dickins who named two children in 1794 and 1796 at Little Staugton Baptist. NC family again!
Or Henry Dickins may have been bapt in 1796 at Riseley s of Stephen and Sarah
Any ideas welcome.
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Another Sabey / Whitmee link; Blars have an entry in their online catalogue dated 8/11/1838 regarding Eliza Farley of St Loyes Bedford; she was witness to George Sabey / Charlotte Farley marriage & they could be sisters. This extract talks about property from brother in law's George Sabey's & mentions their servant Mary Whitmee.
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John Dickins Whitmee born 5 Apr 1796 son of Samuel Whitmee of College Farm Keysoe and his wife Mary Dickins. His birth is registered on Dr Williams Library Non conformist Register
I do not know where his parents married as Mary's nee name only came from the birth registration.
5 Jan 1795 Keysoe - John Whitmee bach married Mary Dickens, spinster, both of Keysoe.
Where did Samuel come from ?
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Thank you for the marriage I have checked my notes;
Samuel was John's brother;
Samuel Whitmee of College Farm Keysoe Beds reg 14 Dec 1813 b 17 Feb 1795 s of John Whitmee and Mary d of Wm and Elizabeth Dickins
Blars have an entry in their online catalogue dated 8/11/1838 regarding Eliza Farley of St Loyes Bedford; she was witness to George Sabey / Charlotte Farley marriage & they could be sisters.This extract talks about property from brother in law's George Sabey's & mentions their servant Mary Whitmee.
George may have been an unbaptised son of Francis Sabey and an Inhabitant Householder of Fitz William Street. Voter 1832 & 1833. He then may have been imprisoned for a year in 1838 aged 33 so born 1805. He was a cellar man at the Swan Hotel in Bedford.
George may have witnessed the wedding of, possibly, his sister Ann in 1829 at Bolnhurst
and, possibly, his brother Samuel to Mary Dickins also in 1829 at Bolnhurst.
George is not a usual given name in the Sabey family but is used later by the children on Francis Sabey so I think he was his son. If he was born 1805 then he was the youngest (found to date!).
I wonder what property he had and am surprised he had a servant.
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Can I please ask if there are any details for the marriage;
Charlotte White married John Whitme on 9th Feb 1819 at Bolnhurst.
Both were single, John Whitme was from Keysoe
Witnesses Samuel Whitme & Richard Kilpin (he was clerk)
The previous marriage at Bolnhurst on 4 Nov 1817 was Thomas Pistill? of Wilden to Elizabeth White, both single. Witnesses were John Whitme, Joseph White, Charlotte White, Sarah White & Richard Kilpin
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Thank you for the offer to look at the Admon for Robert Hull, dairyman of Thurleigh ref 1723/23
Nothing more than Elizabeth Hull of Thurleigh, widow of Robert Hull; Robert Troumer & John Stockdell swearing that she was who she was.
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John. Thank you for looking at the Admon for Robert Hull, dairyman of Thurleigh.
The witnesses etc for the White marriages are very interesting and need further investigating;
But they have really helped.
On the 1841 Census there is an Ann White born 1772 a Farmer with Joseph White 1803. Sarah White 1806. Samuel White 1826 a Tailors Aprentice. Benjamin White 1827.
It is possible that Ann White may be the widow of Samuel White the brother of Charlotte White who married Francis Sabey and witnessed their wedding in 1790 in Bolnhurst.
From the census it seems that the White brides were both born in Eaton Socon
Elizabeth Pestell born 1795 Eaton Socon
Charlotte Whitmee born 1799 Eaton Socon
Both their husbands were Farmers in Bolnhurst
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John. Thank you again for the wedding witnesses. I had high hopes but after spending two days searching I am not much further forward.
Although there is a tree which has Ann White’s husband as Samuel White I cannot find a marriage for him. A guesstimate would be they married before 1795 perhaps in Eaton Socon as that is where who I suspect are their children say they were born on the census. Estimated; Elizabeth in 1795, Charlotte 1799 and Joseph 1801. Obviously there could have been earlier children. As usual I cannot find their baptisms.
There is no burial for Samuel White in Bolnhurst in fact there are only two White burials one was Samuels stepmother Dinah in 1764. I could not find his burial in Eaton Socon.
The only other White marriage in Bolnhurst was Hephiziah White to John Pratt in 179. I think she was born in 1776 Beds from census..
Joseph White married Sarah around 1826. Their children say they were born in Bolnhurst and estimate births are; Samuel 1826, Benjamin 1827, Mary Ann in 1829. No baptisms found.
Joseph White’s wife Sarah died between 1841 and 1851. Guess what no burial found!!
I suspect that one reason for the lack of records is the Non-conformist angle;
On A2A there is an Abstract of a deed ‘Regarding a parcel of land in trust for the benefit of the Society of people of protestants called Baptists at Thurleigh’ which mentions Joseph White of Bolnhurst a Farmer. (also John Dickens Whitmee of Bolnhurst and William Hartop all familiar names!!)
Are there any registers for the Baptist Church in Thurleigh, I am sure a lot of the answers may lay there!
I know from Newspapers that Joseph White was a farmer in Bolnhurst from at least 1839 and his farm was the property of James Daberley and was located nr the Toll Bar on the Kimbolton to Bedford Road.
So I am at a dead end!! Any ideas??
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To anyone interested in Francis Sabey and Charlotte White, a further episode!!.
a) I wondered if Charlotte Whites brother may have had a daughter Charlotte who married John Dickins Whitmee and if the other White marriage in Bolnhurst were for her siblings.
b) We wondered why Francis named his first daughter Dinah and spectated that she may have been named after Charlotte and Samuel's father Rubython’s first wife Dinah or possibly Rubython named a daughter Dinah after his first wife with his second wife Elizabeth nee Elms. Elizabeth Elms was the sister of Francis Elms who was probably the father of Francis Sabey
LOOK what I found last night!! (have to admit I am a bit excited)
(Eliza Deckers on An*) Eliza Whitmee d of John Dickins Whitmee of Bolnhurst Farmer and Charlotte d of Samuel White of Eaton Socon, Bedford a Lab was born at the house of John Dickys Whitmee of Bolnhurst Beds 2 June 1837.
Parents John Dickins Whitmee signs and Charlotte Whitmee X
plus Joseph White, Uncle of the child.
Witness at the birth: signed. Elizabeth Prestell of Bolnhurst, Aunt of the Child and
Sarah White of Bolnhurst, Aunt of the child.
Registered at Dr Williams Library Cripplegate London 29 Dec 1837. RG5 Birth Cert. Protestant Dissenters
AND
Hephzibah Such d of Joseph and his wife Dinah who was the d of Rubythen and Elizabeth White was born in the town of Steventon Beds 19 Sep 1812 at who's birth were present Margaret Poole, Elizabeth Poole, Sarah Edey and Ann Smith reg 3 Sep 1818 Dr Williams Library Cripplegate Lonson
Stephen Such born 19 Sep 1812 in the town of Stevington reg 3 Sep 1818 s of Joseph Such and Dinah d of Rubython and Elizabeth White witness Sarah Edey, Martha Brown, Ann Smith (X) witness to the mark Margaret and Elizabeth Poole RG4 Dr William Library
John. Can you please look at the marriage and see if there is any information for;
Hephzibah White married John Pratt in 1797 at Bolnhurst (on Pallots).
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Hi Hemmum
Good find will dig a little into these names. I have tried to find info on Backenoe House there is a little saying its near Thurleigh & there is an equestrian centre there now.
Regards Lynn S
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Hi Hemmum
Just found in my rough notes a marriage for Samuel White to Mary Somerlin 25/12/1788 at Felmersham & with a d.o.b for him of 1763. Unfortunately I didn't note where I'd found this so will have a look to see what I can discover.
Cheers Lynn S
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I have tried to find info on Backenoe House there is a little saying its near Thurleigh & there is an equestrian centre there now. I cannot now find the old map which showed Backnoe House but you can find Backnoe End Farm which now is basically in the location. South of Bolnhurst, north of Thurleigh.
http://ooc.openstreetmap.org/?zoom=15&lat=52.213745&lon=-0.461656&layers=0B000
Just found in my rough notes a marriage for Samuel White to Mary Somerlin 25/12/1788 at Felmersham & with a d.o.b for him of 1763
I have Samuel Whites (brother of Charlotte) baptism as;
Samuel White 2 Sep 1770 s of Robythan and Elizabeth at Felmersham Beds
If this is the same Samuel and if his wife was Ann White who was in Bolnhurst in 1841 she must have been his second wife if Samuel married Mary Somerlin in 1788.
It would have been interesting to know where you found the marriage of Samuel to Mary in 1788?? (perhaps there may be some of the other missing marriages in the same place!!)
I did find Dinah Such (nee White) born 1775 Felmersham a widow is living West End Steventon her boarder is Wilkinson Row a Baptist Minister born 1794 Louth Lincs.
Charlotte and Samuel White were both baptised in Felmersham in 1767 and 1770 so Dinah would have been their younger sister (If she was baptised at Birth!!) but it does seem as she was also probably a Baptist as her children's births were registered as children of Dissenters.
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Felmersham marriage 25 Dec 1788 Samuel White, widower of Pavenham to Mary Sommerlin, widow - by licence
Bolnhurst marriage 11 Oct 1797 Hephzibah White to John Pratt, widower of Eaton Socon - by licence
There's a death index for Hephzibah Pratt in Dec qtr 1850 in St Neots RD, but that's not on the NBI
On 1841 census at Eaton Socon she's born c 1776 & a schoolmistress
Dinah Such was buried Stevington Baptist on 28 Oct 1857 age 81 (so born 1776 that ties in with 1841 & 1851 census entries). Her husband Joseph Such also buried Stevington Baptist on 18 Nov 1831 age 86. Joseph Such married Dinah White on 31 Mar 1806 Stevington. The 1851 census has Dinah Such ne White born Felmersham which is where Charlotte & Samuel White were baptised so why did they not baptised Dinah there?
Also do you suspect Hephzibah White to also be daughter of Rubythan & Elizabeth White?
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John
Once again thank you for the information.
Felmersham marriage 25 Dec 1788 Samuel White, widower of Pavenham to Mary Sommerlin, widow - by licenceAre there any witnesses on the 1788 marriage of Samuel White.
IF Samuel White was the son of Robythan and baptised around his birth in 1770 and married in 1788 Samuel would have only been 18 at marriage it seems unlikely that he would have married before??
Samuel White 1770 sister Charlotte was baptised 1767 and died 76 so born about 1767 which indicates she was baptised around her birth, so maybe Samuel was too!
Perhaps Samuel White who married in 1788 was otherwise related to Robythan White.
Also in Bolnhurst on the 1841 is Ann White born 1772 who I think was Samuel's wife/widow. With Ann is Joseph White born 1801 Eaton Socon (from later census) who I think was Ann's son.
From the birth in 1837 at Bolnhurst, Joseph White was the uncle of Eliza Whitmee the d of Charlotte who was the daughter of Samuel White of Eaton Socon.
Eliza's mother was Charlotte Whitmee nee White, was born 1799 Eaton Socon, sister of James
Another aunt of Eliza Whitemee was Sarah White (was probably Joseph’s wife who was with him in 1841)
Another aunt of Eliza Whitmee was Elizabeth Prestell nee White was born 1795 Eaton Socon
Therefore; Samuel’s White’s children born (no baptisms) at Eaton Socon were
Elizabeth White 1795 (perhaps after his mother), Charlotte White 1799 (perhaps after his sister) and Joseph White 1803 (?).
I tried unsuccessfully to find marriage for Samuel around 1795 to Ann??
I could not find a marriage burial for Samuel between 1803 when his last child was born in Eaton Socon and 1841 when his possible wife was in Bolnhurst with their son.
Samuel White was possibly in Bolnhurst in 1790 when he witnessed his sisters wedding. If we could find his burial it may indicate his age or location. I have a suspicion
that Samuel White may have later been a Baptist his children who were not baptised obviously were.
Bolnhurst marriage 11 Oct 1797 Hephzibah White to John Pratt, widower of Eaton Socon - by licence
Also do you suspect Hephzibah White to also be daughter of Rubythan & Elizabeth White?
Yes!
IF Hephizibah White who married in Bolhurst and was born 1776 Beds and related to the other White family then she is possibly the sister of Dinah White born 1775 Felmersham who definitely was the unbaptised daughter of Rubythen and Elizabeth White.
I also think it significant that Dinah Such nee White the d of Robythan named her own daughter Hephizibah in 1812 at Stevington.
Charlotte & Samuel White were baptised so why did they not baptised Dinah there? I agree, but can only guess that between 1770 when Samuel was baptised and 1775 when Dinah was born that perhaps they got involved with the NC Church.
Also Rubythan and Elizabeth White moved around as they married in Bolnhurst had children baptised in Felmersham who then returned to Bolnhurst or moved to Eaton Socon.
I would love to know were and when Rubythan White was buried. With a name like that it should stand out!!
Are there any witnesses on Hephzibah White’s marriage in 1797?
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Felmersham marriage 25 Dec 1788 Samuel White, widower of Pavenham to Mary Sommerlin, widow - by licenceAre there any witnesses on the 1788 marriage of Samuel White.
The information that John and I and others provide is taken from the transcript on microfiche of pre 1813 parish register entries. The microfiche unfortunately DOESN'T include marriage witnesses, but all other detail in the parish register and BT is included. For marriage witnesses you need to go to your nearest LDS Family History Centre where you can order and view the microfilm, or go to Bedford Archives. Don't forget that for John to provide this information involves a trip for him to the Archives
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David. Thank you for making me realise how much trouble John goes to find witnesses of marriages.
John.
I ‘Googled’ Stevington Baptist to see if I could find the burials you gave and found out that
In 1804 a new pastor, Joseph Such, was ordained when the meeting then had just 23 members. Joseph Such resigned his pastorship in 1830. Also mentioned is that in 1824 Dinah Such helped with the registration of the house of Robert Tyso for non conformists meetings in Stevington. (I assume Dinah nee White)
Joseph Such's son Josiah died in November 1807 aged just ten months, fifteen days. Similarly his daughter Phebe died in January 1818 aged nine years and two months. Finally, his twenty one year old son Stephen died at Buntingford [Hertfordshire] in May 1831 and was buried "in the Independent Meeting-yard".
My question is
I wondered that if Dinah White born 1775 was Robythan's daughter and married Joseph Such 1806 in Stevington (not on IGI) when Dinah was aged 31 was perhaps her father or mother Elizabeth also buried in Stevington?
Are the Baptist burials also on microfilm or are they available on-line? If it is not too much trouble could I ask you to look?
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Joseph Such was buried Stevington Baptist church on 18 Nov 1831 aged 86 (so born 1745), his wife Dinah Such was buried at same place on 28 Oct 1857 aged 81 (so born 1776). Their marriage in 31 Mar 1806 was by licence dated 5 Mar 1806 & has Joseph Such, widower of Stevington to Dinah White 'of age' of Stevington. There is no-one giving surety... however witnesses were Sarah Grindon & Mary Tyso? perhaps.
BLARS have the will for Joseph Such of Stevington, dissenting minister and currier & citizen of London.....which bequeaths to Dinah my beloved wife who is sole executor all my household furniture, horse harness, cart plate, linnen, china, books, wearing apparrel.... & bequeaths to my dear children my blessings... couldn't be arsed to name them! plus to my daughter (again nameless) by my former wife & her husband & family I trust my wife to favour them... dated 25 Dec 1824, witnessed by William Feary, John Marriott & John Fobee?; & proved 7 Jul 1832
If Joseph Such was married before it may be to Mary wife of Joseph Such who was buried Stevington on 29 Dec 1805.
BLARS also have a hand written autobiography of Joseph Such - he was born Essex on 7 June 1746, married on 16 Aug 1767 "just months after I came of age" but I could not determine any other family linkages. He was ordained age 51 in 1805 & was pastor in Stevington 1804-1830.
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Witnesses at the 25/12/1788 Felmersham marriage of Samuel White, widower of Pavenham to Mary Sommerlin, widow were William Town & Richard Wills (clerk)
Witnesses to the 11/10/1797 Bolnhurst marriage of Hephzibah White, spinster age 21+ to John Pratt, widower of Wyboston, near Eaton Socon were Dinah White & Mary Bonker? This was by licence & surety was by William Day, labourer of St Peters Bedford.
John Pratt seems to be another non-conformist as his house in Wyboston was registered as a meeting house on 6 Mar 1821
Finally --- I noticed on Bolnhurst marriage on 23 July 1792 of William Higgins to Amy Franklin the witnesses were Rubythan White & Thomas Setchell
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Are the Baptist burials also on microfilm or are they available on-line?
Stevington baptist church burials are on the NBI & thus also availabe from the 'Find My Past' website. However coverage is not so great; seems only years, 1705, 1710, 1745, 1770-71, 1790, 1830-80, 1883-91 are there. The Beds FHS have a transcription of the Monumental Inscriptions of Stevington West End Baptist church as surveyed in 1914; I will take a look at next meeting early December.
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John. Thank you again!!
Dinah White witnessed the wedding Hephzibah White in 1797, who I think was her sister, and this was before Dinah married Joseph Such in 1806. It is interesting that Hephzibah and John Pratt were also Baptists as was John and Elizabeth Sabey
Well Spotted that Rubythan witnessed a wedding at Bolnhurst in 1792. This shows he was still alive there then at he same time as Dinah and Hephzibah who I think were his daughters. The fact that they both married Baptists also indicates that Rubythan may also have been a Baptist or NC.
I tried FindMyPast for Rubythan burial in every variation of the name anywhere in England without one result. I do feel frustrated as on FindMyPast you cannot search a parish without a name. It would be a good option if you could get all the results for a time period.
Thank you for your offer to look Stevington MI. Perhaps Rubythan’s son Samuel Whites burial may also turn up!
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Have been looking at Stevington & West End Baptist church & seen that in 1721 a yeoman named John Rubithon was living there.
Also on Hugh Wallis site found @ Stevington
2 baptisms 4/4/1703 Jemima
10/3/1705 Samuel father John Rubithum ( Mary named as mother just for Samuel )
2 marriages 1/7/1701 Jn. Rubithum & Mary Stratton
30/11/1710 Sam Rubithon & Ann Marks
Looks interesting !!!! Off now to dig further.
Lynn S
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here is a big WHAT IF !!!!!
Jemima Rubithon born in Stevington in 1703 married a Mr White as there is a burial on Find My Past of Jemima White in 1779 at Stevington & they have a son called Rubithon White. Any chance of finding if the burial in 1779 is for a 76 year old ?
Cheers Lynn S
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Good Luck with that Lynn, sounds interesting.
Further information regarding Stevington I found this on A2A. The Rubithan family were also NC.
DEED POLL being DECLARATION of TRUST X239/4 c1773
By Wm. Bowyer, Thos. Lawrence, Jn. Rubithon, Jn. Lovell, Ric. Lambert, Jn. Spencer, and Thos. Lovell (as in X239/3 above) as to piece of ground in West end Stevington and the house lately built thereon, i.e.
That they as trustees shall permit the house to be used by Protestant Dissenters as a place for religious worship during the said term of 999 years;
That if any of the trustees shall leave or be expelled from the congregation, then he shall cease to be a trustee, and another shall be chosen in his place out of the congregation by a majority of church members
Sgd. and sealed by trustees as above 12 Aug 1721
At the foot of the deed are added the names of subsequent trustees:
one was:
John Rubethen in place of John Lovell; (does this indicate John Rubethen Jnr? or had John displeased the church as a previous entry read)
James Paine in place of John Rubothan forfeited his place
The last amendment was Apr. 28 1773 John Gamby in place of Thomas Steef;
Then Signatures of Joseph Such, William Bowyer, Lawrence Cumberland Ebenezer Cavit, John Hines, and marks of James Jones and Robert Tyso.
The Rubethen family obviously were also NC and probably knew Joseph Such.
I wonder if Joseph Sabey 2nd wife Elizabeth Lovell who he married in 1770 at Bolnhurst was related to John and Thomas Lovell. I suspect that Joseph Sabey may have also been NC.
There is another reference, placing Thomas Lovells as being from Felmersham (which is where in 1767 and 1770 Charlotte and Samuel White were baptised but not Rubythan Whites two younger daughters;
Hephiziah who married John Pratt who was NC and Dinah who married Joseph Such!
Does this indicate that although Rubythan baptised his two eldest children in the established church he then reverted which is how his daughters all married dissenters?)
Reciting indenture 4th February 1721
ii) Wm Bowyer, Thos Laurence, Jn Rubithon all of Stevington, Jn Lovell, Rich Lambert, Jn Spencer of Pavenham Thos Lovell of Radwell, Felmersham being lease by (i) to (ii) for 999 yrs rent 1s p.a.
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here is a big WHAT IF !!!!! Jemima Rubithon born in Stevington in 1703 married a Mr White as there is a burial on Find My Past of Jemima White in 1779 at Stevington & they have a son called Rubithon White. Any chance of finding if the burial in 1779 is for a 76 year old ?
Cheers Lynn S
Simple... Bedford St Mary's marriage on 10 Nov 1725 Jeremy White to Jemima Rubithon, both of Stevington. The burial at Stevington St Marys on 25 Jan 1779 is Jemima White, widow; don't know how old she was but most likely she is wife of Jeremy; his burial also at Stevington on 15 Dec 1770.
Cannot see any baptisms of their children.... however the following info is taken from the will of John Rubathon, ploughwright of Stevington who was buried at St Marys on 27 Feb 1760 (PR has his name RUBISON!) which is after his wife Mary was buried there on 21 Dec 1742....
Will dated 8th? day of Dec 1749 I John Rubathan bequeath to my son-in-law Jeremiah White .... & to his wife Jemima, my daughter......& to my grand-son Robithan White.... & my grand-daughter Jemima White.... & to my grand-son Samuel White.... Will was proved 12 April 1760
off you go...
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John you are Amazing!!
So it looks like.(to recap and also ask a couple of questions - I hope this makes sense!)
Robythan White who married in 1766 at Bolnhurst to Elizabeth nee Elms, who was the sister of Francis Elms, who was the father of Francis Sabey who married Charlotte White was the daughter of Robythan White
Robythan had previously married Dinah Harris who was buried as Dinah White at Bolnhurst in 1764.
Then Robythan White, widower married Elizabeth Aspitall a widow 1766 at Bolnhurst
Robithan White was the grandson of John Rubathon, ploughwright of Stevington who died in 1760 and Mary Stratton
Robithan White was the son of Jeremy White and Jemima Rubithon both of Stevington.
His parents married 1725, Robithan was named first on his grandfather’s will so assume the eldest so perhaps born 1726 onwards at Stevington.
Robithan White’s mother was baptised as Jemima Rubithum d of John bap 4 April 1703 at Stevington. His mother was buried at Stevington on 25 Jan 1779 as Jemima White a widow.
Jemimas parents were;
Jn. Rubithum who married Mary Stratton 1 July 1701 at Stevington
John and Mary Ribithum had one other child;
Samuel Rubithum bap s of John and Mary bap 10 March 1705 at Stevington.
Samuel was not mentioned in his father John’s 1760 will? Had he died?.
Is this his burial? Samuel Robotham buried 14 Aug 1721 Stevington.
John, are there any details on this burial?
John also found another Rubithan marriage;
Sam Rubithon married Ann Marks 3 Nov 1710 at Stevington.
Perhaps Samuel was John’s brother or if widowed his father?
Jemima Rubithum and Jeremy White had three children named on her fathers will.
There are no baptisms perhaps the Whites were also NC?
1.Robithan White as above and below
Daughter of Jeremy and Jemima
2.Jemima White. I see that her mother Jemima was buried as a widow 25 Jan 1779.
There is another Jemima White buried later the same year on 25 October.
Are there any notes on her burial perhaps this was her daughter?
John also mentioned that he did not find a burial for Jeremy White. Could this be his burial? (Which is after his father-in-laws Will and before his widows burial?)
Jerimiah White buried 15 Dec 1770 St Mary Stevington.
Are there any notes on the burial?
Son of Jeremy and Jemima
3. Samuel White. Was he the Samuel White who married as a widower of Pavenham to Mary Sommerlin, widow - by licence on 25 Dec 1788 at Felmersham?
Were the two brothers in Felmersham during this period.
Samuel’s brother, Robythan White had two children baptised in Felmersham in 1767 and 1770.
Robythan then had two daughters were not baptised, perhaps because he left the established church?
Dinah born 1775 Felmersham who married the Baptist minister Joseph Such and Hephzibah born about 1776 who married John Pratt who were also NC.
Robithan White and Elizabeth married 1766 in Bolnhurst.
They had one son Samuel bapt 1770 in Felmersham who is not on the 1841 census but his possible widow is Ann born 1776 is in Bolnhurst. Samuel’s children say they were born in Eaton Socon between 1799-1806.
I wonder if his father Rubythan White was also in Eaton Socon?
Is this the burial of a possible daughter named after Rubythan's mother?
Jemina White aged 42 (born 1776) buried 5 Jul 1818 at St Mary Eaton Socon NBI FindMyPast
Are there any notes on the burial?
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& bequeaths to my dear children my blessings... couldn't be arsed to name them!
Off the track for me but in case it is of interest to any Such followers (Screaming or otherwise or is that me showing my age!)
On Non Conformist Births register are:
Benjamin Pinchard born 21 Jan 1801 Bedford St Peter s of George Pinchard and Mary the d of Joseph and Mary Such
Also Eliza Pinchard born 19 Dec 1802 Bedford St Cuthbert.
Mary Hephizah Pinchard born 23 Jul 1813 Brentwood Essex this birth was witnesses by Mary Such Snr (possibly Joseph's mother)
All births registered 23 Jul 1813
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Jemina White aged 42 (born 1776) buried 5 Jul 1818 at St Mary Eaton Socon NBI FindMyPast
Are there any notes on the burial?
Too long. I skipped to the bottom.
Try http://www.escan.org.uk/burials.asp
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John you are Amazing!! Yes I know & modest
John and Mary Ribithum had one other child;
Samuel Rubithum bap s of John and Mary bap 10 March 1705 at Stevington.
Samuel was not mentioned in his father John’s 1760 will? Had he died?.
Is this his burial? Samuel Robotham buried 14 Aug 1721 Stevington.
John, are there any details on this burial?
Sorry, I missed that in my posting
Stevington burial 14 Aug 1721 Samuel, son of John & Mary Rubithan, ploughwright
So he died age 16...
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David. thanks for the link to Eaton Socon registers, it is a shame the marriages seem to start around 1820 but I found a marriage that may be interesting
Joseph Wright White bach married 25 Feb 1823 to Sarah Emery spin at Eaton Socon witness James and Richard Emery by licence.
Was this his wife again NC;
Sarah Emery born 8 Sep 1801 Bedford St Paul d of John Emery and Elizabeth d of Rev Joshua Symonds birth reg 14 Nov 1822 with 5 siblings. Lydia Martin (x) Mary Symonds witness HW Green and Joseph Kilpin. Presbytirian Dissenters Birth regs
He died as Joseph Wright White born 1801 death reg Jul 1872 Bedford Beds (but nothing on probate calender)
This is possibly Joseph the son of Samuel White (brother of Charlotte who married Francis).
All of Samuel's children were NC all said they were born in Eaton Socon. Samuel's wife was named Ann but I could not find their marriage. IF their only son (Joseph born 1801 on census) full name was Joseph Wright White, I wondered if his mother may have been Ann Wright so I searched Eaton Socon records and found;
Ann Wright married Samuel Wright 11 Oct 1792 at Eaton Socon Beds
Is there a chance that this is the marriage of Samuel White to Ann Wright?
Or am I just being wishful?
Samuel and Ann's eldest daughter Elizabeth said she was born 1795 in Eaton Socon?
Not sure what Mr 'Magic' Bedford may be able to pull out of the hat on this one?!?
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Jemina White aged 42 (born 1776) buried 5 Jul 1818 at St Mary Eaton Socon NBI FindMyPast
Are there any notes on the burial?
Am happy this was not a daughter of Robythan but the wife of;
George White who married Jemima Brunt 8 Mar 1804 at Tempsford Beds IGI
They had several children baptised in Eaton Socon
Got to look at things!
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Hi Hemmum, John & David
Been to my brothers at Somersham this weekend & had a coach trip to London on Saturday picking up at St Neots so we then passed Eaton Socon !! Can any of you work out what cousin relationship we have? Francis Sabey & Charlotte White were my 4x gt-grandparents.
Lots of info to absorb look forward to sharing more with you.
Cheers Lynn S
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Hi Lynn
I'm not showing this line going farther back than John the non-conformist. Until such time as I can link him to Joseph Sabey (born c1675) from Colmworth then we're not connected. If he does link to that family John is likely to be something like my first cousin seven times removed. Joseph was my 7xg grandfather.
But I'm not convinced that we'll find the link, if it exists.
I have the following children of Joseph who moved to mid Beds:
Luke - arrived in Southill c 1731
Joseph - arrived in Southill c 1730
John - arrived in Northill c 1739
Catherine - arrived in Old Warden c 1739
then there's
Richard - moved to Eaton Socon c 1744
But I also have James, my 5xg grandfather via another line, who arrived in Henlow c 1744 who neither I nor anyone else know where he was from. Seems a coincidence that he should turn up in Henlow, a couple of miles or so from Southill and Northill, at roughly the same time as the other Sabeys from Colmworth. But if he is connected I don't know how. And I suspect that John the non-conformist may fall into the same category.
David
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Next bit of magic regarding the following.......There is an IGI member submission for a marriage on 9 Feb 1753 at Peterborough Cathedral, Northants for Bobitham White & Dinah Harris. Can this be verified please & if so can further details be provided, such as status, parishes & witnesses if any. I suspect that this is Robathon/Rubitham White born Stevington to Jeremiah White & wife Jemima ne Rubithan White (who married 1725 in Bedford) whose first wife Dinah is buried Bolnhurst in Mar 1764.
I emailed the archivist of the Peterborough Family History Society who have the transcript of Peterborough Caterdral register
http://www.peterborofhs.org.uk/publications.html
& got this favourable response...
27 Dec 1753 Bobytham White of Stephington, Beds and Dinah Yarnis of Alwinckle All Saints, Northants. No witnesses recorded
Amazing...
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Oi Wizard, one of the problems of running three enormous unwieldy threads is that information gets missed. See my post #25 on http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=564856.msg5119149#msg5119149
Good sleuthing with Peterborough FHS, which confirms what I'd expected/hoped for. I wasn't expecting you to do the sleuthing though.
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MAGIC John, I will be expecting you to be able to change water into wine next!
Thank you so much for your hard work and interest.
Lyn.
We definitely link!
Francis and Charlotte were my x6 grandparents.
As David said we do not know who was the father of John Saby the Baptist but as he was a Farmer I wonder if he was the first tenant of the farm in Thurleigh?
Is there anyway of finding any more information which may give a clue?
(Maybe John may be able to wave his wand!)
From the 1750 census there was a non-conformists John Saby, farmer, of Backenhoo House. His landlord was John Lawson & the rent was £45.00.
I found the information regarding the estate.
The MANOR OF BACKENHO in Thurleigh was owed by John Lawson in 1738 and 1739. In 1753 John Lawson, probably a son and Theodosia his wife were in possession.
John’s father in law (Robert Hull) was a dairyman in Thurleigh who died in 1723
Thinking out loud and playing devils advocate John the Baptist could have been;
(apart from being another unbaptised child of course)?
a. ... child of Jos Saby born Feb 20 1703 Appendix 'register of unbaptised children' Bolnhurst Beds
b. John Seeby s of Wm and Susan bap 8 Nov 1713 St Peter Trinity Thurleigh (alternative name Seely)
c. John Sabey christened 9 Jan 1715/16 Colmworth s of Joseph and Katherine
As Joseph baptised a son John in 1715 (from his 2nd marriage) David feels would have been unlikely to have a child named John in 1703.
It seems that Joseph had perhaps 12 children over a span of 28 years either Bolnhurst or Colmworth.
Joseph first wife was Mary but I do not think the marriage has been found.
I wonder if all the children have the same Joseph as their father?
If Joseph did have that many children then it would be no surprise if some moved away as I am sure Joseph's farm could not support that lot!
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Thinking out loud and playing devils advocate John the Baptist could have been;
(apart from being another unbaptised child of course)?
a. ... child of Jos Saby born Feb 20 1703 Appendix 'register of unbaptised children' Bolnhurst Beds
b. John Seeby s of Wm and Susan bap 8 Nov 1713 St Peter Trinity Thurleigh (alternative name Seely)
c. John Sabey christened 9 Jan 1715/16 Colmworth s of Joseph and Katherine
or
d. None of the above and he came in from another county, possibly Northants where there were Sabeys.
Joseph Sabey baptised one child in 1710 and four on the same day in 1711, so it looks as though he was playing catch-up, and I'd have thought the 1703 child was likely to be one of the four in 1711 - one of these was Mary who married in 1719, so it could quite feasibly have been her.
Joseph may have been the J...Sabey buried at Bolnhurst on 20 Dec 1736. With Mary his first wife "wife of Joseph of Colmworth" being buried in Bolnhurst on 22 Dec 1713 and with no sign of a baptism or burial of a second Joseph, I think it's entirely reasonable to assume that it was Joseph the widower who married Katherine Berry in Goldington in 1714 (and before John, hereinafter referred to as "Merlin", scurries off to the Archives I've already checked - there's no further detail in the marriage entry) and they continued living at Colmworth where they had five more children.
And just to lob another name into the frame for Merlin to chase around after, there's an entry in the will index at BLARS of John Sabey alias Savill of Colmworth dated 5 July 1674. Also mentioned Susanna Sabey alias Savill of Colmworth, widow, and Robt Sabey alias Savill of Bolnhurst. But before you need worry about them you've got the considerable hurdle of John in Bolnhurst to jump.
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Whilst trying to find something about John Sabeys farm I came across this;
Which I think proves that Samuel White was the father of Joseph White who was with his mother Ann on the 1841 census and that Samuel White died about 1828!!
It may also be significant that also mentioned in the lease with Joseph is John Whitmee (who probably married Charlotte White his daughter)
"Lease and Release
1) Rev Robt Hele Selby Hele late of Colmworth, Now of Boringdon Lodge Herts, Clerk
2) Sam White of Bolnhurst, farmer (purchaser)
3) Jos Savill of St Neots, Hunts, Draper
Several Messuages at Bolnhurst heretofore occ
Wm Sabey, Wm Peck and Geo Carroll now of Wm Grant, Jn Newell and Thos Whiting.
Geo Carroll, Wm Saby and - Joyce
Abs: 'Fox and Hounds' Public House
: Close of pasture late belonging to (1) now of Nich Waterhouse Esq
: Turnpike Rd or Town St of Bolnhurst
(Bought by (1) from Thos Riseley and Wire
Consideration 60
Date Free Text 23 & 24 Oct 1822
GK56/8 Title
Lease and Release
1) Jos White of Bolnhurst, farmer
Jn Whitmee of Bolnhurst, farmer
(devisees in trust for sale under will of Sam White proved May 1828 Archd of Bedford)
2) Steph Harrison of Bolnhurst, Victualler and Bricklayer (purchaser)
3) Chas Short of Bedford Surgeon (Trustee for (2))
2 Messuages lately div into 4
formerly occ by Thos Whiting, Jn Newall Thos Grant and Geo Carrol
Now of Thos Grant, George Carrol, Widow Wimpers and one occ
With orchard or piece of gnd. Bolnhurst
Abs: Public House formerly called 'Fox and Hounds' now 'Hare & Hounds'
: Close of pasture since of Nich Waterhouse Esq.
: Turnpike Road or Town St of Bolnhurst
Consideration 105 Date Free Text 27 & 28 Mar 1829
Release
1) Jas Duberly of Caines Hall, Gt Staughton, Hants
2) Chas St Barbe of Lymington, Hants Esq.
Dav. Rowley of The Priory St Neots.
(executors of will of Sir Jas Duberly late of Caines Hall, Gt Staughton)
2) Ann White of Bolnhurst, Widow
3) Steph Harrison of Bolnhurst Widow
Recites: will of Sam White - proved
May 1828 Archdeaconry of Bedford.
Recites deed GK
Above of 27 & 28 Mar. 1829
Recites: death of Sir Jas Duberly on 26 Mar. 1832
Will proved PCC 21 July 1832
100 has been paid
Properties covered by deed
Witnesses incl. Geo Day, attorney of St Ives.
20 Ap. 1833 Receipt of 21 Sept 1832 Attached.
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Still trying to work out why John of Bolnhurst and Elizabeth Hull of Thurleigh should have married in Wilden.
John Sabey married Emey Cawley at Goldington on 4 Apr 1712 and between 1712 and 1719 baptised four children in Wilden. John was buried in Wilden in 1746. A Robert Sibley married Ann Kippest in 1745 - perhaps this was Robert Sabey and another name variation to consider? There was also an Austin or Augustine Sabey baptising children in Wilden at the right time. Might John the baptist have been an unbaptised son of either of these two Wilden families? A rhetorical question, but it might explain why he married in Wilden, by licence, details of which Merlin has already kindly provided.
And on that quizzical note I'm off to collect my son and heir from school
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Still trying to work out why John of Bolnhurst and Elizabeth Hull of Thurleigh should have married in Wilden.
I had assumed it was because they were NC and perhaps the local vicar was reluctant to marry them in his Church, (my Tavistock NC's went all the way to Plymouth to marry), but I see where you are coming from. Every avenue deserves investigation.
Is it significant that John and Elizabeth's marriage licence was granted by a Mr Lamb from St Paul (?Bedford)?
Also you mention the marriage of John Sabey in 1712 at Goldington, I cannot see this on the IGI.
What is the source of the Marriage?
Also I have a note that;
Joseph SABEY to Katherine BERRY married 6 Nov 1714 Goldington Beds
Is this marriage correct AND do you see a relationship between John and Joseph?
Are there any other Sabey marriages in Goldington
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With thanks to Sandy on the Northants board...
Baptism Aldwinckle All Saints C of E
06-Dec 1725 Dinah YARNIS daughter of William & Sarah
so tallies near enough to birth year of Robithan White, son of Jeremiah & Jemima married 1725
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More info from Stevington PRs....
Burials
25 Jan 1779 Jemima White, widow .... OK wife of Jeremy/Jeremiah
25 Oct 1779 Jemima White, spinster.... OK unmarried daughter of Jeremy & Jemima
15 Dec 1770 Jeremiah White, "laberor man"
10 Jul 1745 John son of Jeremiah & Jemima White ...... one we didn't know of!
19 Sept 1751 Samuel son of Jeremy & Jemima White, blacksmith
So is Jeremy or son Samuel the blacksmith? Samuel was mentioned in his grandfather John Rubathon's will dated Dec 1749. In my view still a minor, aged less than 21 as described as "son of..." so born after 1730... ? Anyway as he's now dead he cannot be the one who married Mary Sommerlin etc...
I noticed in a book about Stevington in the library there's a mention of Jeremiah White being one of the jury at the Court Baron date 1749
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Next..... to Eaton Socon.... marriage 11 Oct 1792 Samuel Wright/White bachelor of Tempsford to Ann Wright ... think we can rule him out...
However from the marriage licence transcript dated 19 Feb 1823 of Joseph Wright White who married Sarah Emery, junior on 25 Feb 1823 at Eaton Socon, it states that both parties were "never baptised in C of E" & Joseph was from Bolnhurst
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I had assumed it was because they were NC and perhaps the local vicar was reluctant to marry them in his Church, (my Tavistock NC's went all the way to Plymouth to marry), but I see where you are coming from. Every avenue deserves investigation.
Is it significant that John and Elizabeth's marriage licence was granted by a Mr Lamb from St Paul (?Bedford)?
Also you mention the marriage of John Sabey in 1712 at Goldington, I cannot see this on the IGI.
What is the source of the Marriage?
Also I have a note that;
Joseph SABEY to Katherine BERRY married 6 Nov 1714 Goldington Beds
Is this marriage correct AND do you see a relationship between John and Joseph?
Are there any other Sabey marriages in Goldington
Could a local vicar refuse to marry anyone? Usually it was the non-conformists who didn't want to marry in the local church so got a licence and married elsewhere.
Why should who granted the licence be significant? He would have been an officer of the diocesan court responsible for issuing licences
Next question - this is beginning to feel like an interrogation. What is my source? It was the old IGI - extracted in the days before the "new" sexed up IGI. If you check the current IGI Community Contributed database you'll find it. I've explained before how the LDS deleted a lot of extracted entries where there was an identical member submitted entry.
Yes, the marriage Joseph/Katherine is correct. See previous paragraph. It's also been checked with the Beds Record Office transcript - http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=188681.msg924866#msg924866
Do I see a connection between John and Joseph who both happened to marry a girl from Goldington? As I don't know the parents of either the immediate answer is no, but I wouldn't rule it out. Nor do I know how Augustine Sabey from Wilden fits into the picture, if indeed he's connected, which I suspect he is.
Are they any other Goldington entries for Sabey? You have access to the same IGI as I have, but look at the Community Contributed (Member submissions as was) as well. There's one earlier marriage but no baptisms
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MAGIC John, I will be expecting you to be able to change water into wine next!
I currently working on changing wine into water - a piece of p**s
Anyway going off tangent but still got a Saby connection... remember the Bolnhurst marriage of 23/7/1792 witnessed by Rubythan White between Willliam Higgins & Amy Franklin.... well seems William Higgins is most likely a widower although not stated as prior to this there's a burial on 27 May 1791 of Lucy wife of William Higgins. On 28 Jan 1784 William Higgins, widower married Lucy Bitten, widower; they baptised & buried a number of children at Bolnhurst 1784-1790. Prior to this there's a burial on 30 Sept 1783 of Alice wife of William Higgins plus burial of their daughter Charlotte on 20 Oct 1783. Haven't got the marriage of William to Alice as yet. Back to Lucy, well as Lucy Dolby she married John Bitton on 14 Sept 1772 - not got the burial of John Bitton yet either. .... drumroll... there is a baptism of John Saby son of Lucy Bitton on 19 Jun 1781 followed by his burial on 22 June 1781 - what's that all about?
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David
I am sorry if you think my questions ‘feel like interrogation’ and I deeply apologise for any offence caused. I know you have suggested that I check out the IGI Community Contributed database but there is a tree on it which shows my ggggrandmother in Devon dying aged 4 years old so I always try to verify anything submitted, which is what you did yourself
I'd be very grateful for a look up as follows: there's a member submission on the IGI, but no controlled extraction, of a marriage at Goldington on 6 Nov 1714 between Joseph Sabey and Katherine Berry
For which you received the answer
Marriage of Sabey to Berry is in the extracted P/R for Goldington but no other details
And commented
Excellent! At least it wasn't a figment of some researcher's imagination as sometimes happens with member submissions on the IGI!
There's one earlier marriage but no baptismsI had already checked out the IGI batch numbers and found no marriages but one baptism in Goldington;
Anne Saby d of Thomas bap 12 Jan 1666 batch P005041
Perhaps she was the daughter of the Thomas you mentioned was NC in 1668?;
Non-conformity in this family seems to go back a long way. BLARS has the following "Presentment of nonconformists B.V. Billa vera The bill of indictment has been considered by the grand jury, who present the offence, and the bill thereupon becomes an indictment. c1668 - Thomas Sebey of Goldington, yeoman" The top of my Sabey tree is Joseph who remarried in Goldington in 1714 ....hmmmm!
You suggested I
check the current IGI Community Contributed databaseI checked both the Ancestral Files and Pedigree Resources File I cannot find any Sabey marriages in Goldington.
The marriage of Joseph to Katherine says about 1714 but no parish or county. What am I doing wrong? Bring back the old IGI search!!
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I wasn't offended! Just interrogated.
For the IGI I use https://familysearch.org/search/collection/igi and make sure both boxes are ticked above the first and last names boxes
Last name : sabey
Click Any place
Put in Goldington and tick exact box
et voila
One birth in the "extracted" part which is how I still think of it, and two marriages plus some fictional entries in the Member submitted side
Still laughing at John turning wine into water! It's true. He really can do it. I've seen him do the first part of the transformation.
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Unless you've found something that you haven't told us I think the Francis Sabey line stops, for the moment, at John Sabey who married in Wilden in 1741. I think the two Wilden families need to be investigated further. I agree that Thomas in Goldington is probably connected. It's just that I've never been able to find the link - perhaps Joseph wasn't baptised because they were non-conformist, although Joseph managed to baptise twelve, albeit somewhat irregularly.
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I wasn't offended! Just interrogated.David. Glad we are still friends! Thanks for the guidence got it now.
there is a baptism of John Saby son of Lucy Bitton on 19 Jun 1781 followed by his burial on 22 June 1781 - what's that all about?
John. You have me stumped - all of those names mean nothing!. The only John Sabey around at that time was our John the baptist who made his will in 1777 and died in August 1781.
Lucy Dolby married John Britton in Sept 1772, perhaps JB died before 1780?
Perhaps John Sabey and Lucy they were both widows and if he was ill in 1781(but obviously active in the autumn of 1780!) did not amend his will.
If John Sabey was base born think it is significant that he was named John as so often base children were given their biological fathers name. Perhaps Lucy thought John Sabey would marry her but he died instead!!
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I currently working on changing wine into water - a piece of p**sWas it red or white? Did you have a headache the next morning!
Thanks for the Stevington info as it tidies that up nicely
Next..... to Eaton Socon.... marriage 11 Oct 1792 Samuel Wright/White bachelor of Tempsford to Ann Wright ... think we can rule him out...
Oh what a shame!!
Samuel White bought the property in Bolnhurst in 1822 and died in 1828 in Bolnhurst his widow was Ann.
Samuel took a loan of £100 in 1812 from Sir James Duberly which was repaid by his executors in 1832.
There is mention of the will of Sam White proved May 1828 Archd of Bedford
I could not find his will on BLAS but when I try to search ‘White’ it times out (probably doing something wrong)
John – Dare I ask you to look please?!?
Samuel White children were born in Eaton Socon about 1799-1801 onwards so it ‘fitted’ that he married Ann Wright in 1792 in Eaton Socon, particularly as he named his son Joseph Wright White!!
His son Joseph Wright White married 1823 at Eaton Socon to Sarah Emery both were unbaptised!
A witness of this marriage was Richard Emery who may also have witnessed the wedding of James Sabey a widow (who probably lived at Colmworth) married Sarah Nichols a widow 30 Mar 1832 at Eaton Socon!!
Strangely on the same day as JWW married a George White (?born 1797 Kempston a Butcher) married Maria Emery 25 Feb 1823 at Roxton?? Their son was probably John Emery White born 1825 Tempsford and died 1884 Kempston.
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BLARS has the will of Samuel White of Bolnhurst, farmer, ref 1828/22. I doubt if this is online.
John prefers red, but the other is all Wright/White
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John prefers red, but the other is all Wright/WhiteAny port or sherry in a storm?
If I'm over Keysoe way I'll buy him a pint! Nice pub at Bolnhurst - purely in the name of research!
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John prefers redIf I'm over Keysoe way I'll buy him a pint!
A pint of red wine - now you're talking, but may not finish it......
Anyway next time I'm in Archives I will look at will of Samuel White 1828 & the Admon of John Savill alias Sabey 1674 hope it's not in latin !
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A pint of red wine - now you're talking, but may not finish it..It's a date! My husband will be so pleased that family research can be done in a pub, instead of the graveyards I've made him take me to!
Thank you for the offer re the wills. I know I have a check but a while ago you mentioned
Blars have an entry in their online catalogue dated 8/11/1838 regarding Eliza Farley of St Loyes Bedford; she was witness to George Sabey / Charlotte Farley marriage & they could be sisters. This extract talks about property from brother in law's George Sabey's & mentions their servant Mary Whitmee.
George is a possible son of Francis and after he went to prison he disappeared. Is there any chance you could look at this too!?!
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And just to lob another name into the frame for Merlin to chase around after, there's an entry in the will index at BLARS of John Sabey alias Savill of Colmworth dated 5 July 1674. Also mentioned Susanna Sabey alias Savill of Colmworth, widow, and Robt Sabey alias Savill of Bolnhurst.
The Admon entry dated 5 July 1674 is in latin, roughly translated with the help of BLARS is...
John Saby alias Savill of Colmworth, deceased....it has been granted to Robert Sabey alias Savill of Bolnhurst, brother of the deceased & John Holditch of Kimbolton, tanner by the creditors of the deceased.... that during the minority of Elizabeth, only daughter of the deceased.....& that the said John Holditch of Kimbolton, tanner; Susanna Sabey alias Savill of Colmworth, widow (of the deceased) & Edmund Peacocke, farmer of Bolnhurst.... are bound in the sum of £100 (to act as trustees?)
** so she's most likely Elizabeth, daughter of John & Susan Saby baptised 27 Sept 1673 at Colmworth following the marriage there on 7 Nov 1672 of John Saby to Susanna Shefford
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The will of Samuel White, farmer of Bolnhurst bequeaths all land & property to son Joseph White, farmer of Bolnhurst & to son in law John Whitmee, farmer of Thurleigh (who are the executors). Other items are bequeathed to my daughter Elizabeth Pestell, wife of Thomas Pestell, farmer of Bolnhurst; to my daughter Charlotte Whitmee, wife of the said John Whitmee; to my wife Ann White & to my daughter Sarah White of Bolnhust. Will is dated 28 Jan 1828 & witnessed by Joseph Parish, William Maddy & Richard Kilpin. Proved on 21 Jun 1828, value was not in excess of £450.
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John. Thank you for the information re wills. I think that ties the Whites up nicely and gives a death for Samuel although there is no burial for him.
Sarah White was and ‘extra’ I did not know of and have not found her baptism, but of course they were NC, or later on census although she witnessed weddings and births of family members.
I wonder if you or David may be able to shed any light on the Deeds below or the Will mentioned in BS1824.
My side is from John the Baptist whereas, David is from Joseph. David may have already seen the Will which may relate to Joseph Sabey who may have died in 1736.
According to BS1799 Joseph Saby was in Bolnhurst in 1713 did he die in 1736? The burial with the name altered?
Why was a copy of the burial needed in 1825?
Bolnhurst burial of a J..... Sabey of Colmworth on Dec 20 1736 - that's how it appears in the transcript with a note to said the name had been altered
Who were William Forster and Nicholas Waterhouse. Would they have been family members?
The reference numbers BS1793-1831 for dates 1688-1830 ‘deal with Title Deeds for mainly for Brayes Farm in Bolnhurst and Colmworth'.
Reference number BS1799 mentions Joseph Sabey and Richard Fisher (Fisher a name we had encountered before. Sarah Sabey/Hartop/Fisher and Abraham who did not baptise their children ?NC)
Joseph Sabey is not mentioned on the next entry BS1800 which is dated 1728.Would he still have had an interest in the Property? Or perhaps died before 1736?
BS1824 Title Letters of Administration.
Granted to William Forster by Prerogative Court of Canterbury on Petition of Nicholas Waterhouse.
The Estate of Joseph Seaby (or Saby) deceased limited to Brayes Farm with lands etc.
Recites: BS1799. reciting BS1794; BS1795 (mis-dating the year as 1706); BS 1797 with memorandum annexed.
Date Free Text 19 Mar 1816. Admin/biog history BRA Stamp 641 from Frere Cholmeley & Co Lincolns Inn Fields. Related Records see also BS1794 . Level of description item. Keywords. BOLNHURST.
BS1799 Title Assignment of Mortgage in Trust £260: (i) Mary Cox of Wilstead widow (ii) Thomas Cooper of Nertherstead Colmworth yeoman. Joseph Seaby of Colmworth husbandman (iii) Richard Fisher of Colmworth yeoman (iv) Edward Eastwell of Bolnhurst yeoman. Recites BS1794 1795 [mis-dating the year as 1706] with endorsements. 1796 and 1797. A farm house called Brayes and other property as therein recited. For Richard Fisher to attend the Inheritance. Witnesses: James Warren. Robert Clare.William Berkeley Date. Date Free Text 2 May 1713 Date From 1706 (see above re misdating) Date To 1713
Reference BS1800
Title Lease for one year (Release absent): (i) Edward Eastwell of Bolnhurst, yeoman (ii) Richard Fisher of Colmwoth, yeoman. Brayes Farm with home close, orchard and barns etc and all appurtenances; Long Close Pightle and Taylors Pightle; Bryer Ridding Close, east of Long Close (2 acres 3 roods); 66 acres arable etc in Bolnhurst [details given]. Witnesses: Charles Edgerly, Robert Clare, Thomas Berleley
Date Free Text 4 May 1713 Date From 1706 Date To 1713
BS2015 Title Attested Copy: burial of Joseph Saby of Colmworth, from parish register of Bolnhurst 20 December 1736. Date Free Text 1736; copy made 24 November 1825 Date From 1736 Date To 1825
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Hi all, I stumbled on your fantastic chat a couple of weeks ago.
I have an interest in Joseph Wright White who married Sarah Emery in1823 at Eaton Socon, my possible 3rd great grand parents. This Sarah is not the daughter of John and Elizabeth daughter of Rev Joshua Symonds, as speculated from a post dated Sunday 24 November 2016 by Hemmum, I have found their daughter Sarah married to a William Davenport in Stroud Gloucester in 1833 where her parents and sister Mary were living.
Therefore could I ask if anyone has found another Sarah Emery born 1801 who might be the Sarah married to Joseph White?
Thank you.
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Hi all, I stumbled on your fantastic chat a couple of weeks ago.
It's so long I'm not surprised it took you 2 weeks to plough through it!
I'll take a look at your query - I also have Emerys from that part of the world in my tree.
For some reason which I can't explain, I appear to have missed Hemmum's last post. Perhaps I left it to John! I'll look at that too.
David
PS Welcome to Rootschat!
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Hello Kettlass & welcome to RootsChat
You've restirred a very interesting thread! David I did not check out any of Hemmum's queries; as its been more than 3 years now I wonder if he/she got any further?
As to Joseph & Sarah who married in 1823, I've found them in Bolnhurst on 1841 census, but not subsequently, nor have I found a death/burial for either. In 1841 the first person in household is Ann White age 69 Farmer, assume Joseph's mother & widow of Samuel. Joseph age 38 & Sarah age 35, they had son Benjamin age 15 & son Samuel age 14 (tailor).
Samuel - I've found in 1851, age 25, a visitor in Stevington and in 1861, age 34, lodger in Lincoln.
Benjamin - died age 23 in Bedford RD in Dec 1850
If we could locate Sarah in later census it may give us a clue from place of birth.
As they had no anglican baptism, then they most likely were non-conformists. it's interesting to note that in the BHRS volume 75, chapels & meeting houses, there is one in Bolnhurst, registered as 'the house of Samuel White' dated 18 Dec 1818...
Cheers John
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However from the marriage licence transcript dated 19 Feb 1823 of Joseph Wright White who married Sarah Emery, junior on 25 Feb 1823 at Eaton Socon, it states that both parties were "never baptised in C of E" & Joseph was from Bolnhurst
Just revisited this... & realise it says Sarah Emery, junior... inferring that there is a Sarah Emery, senior - most likely her mother... & still alive at that time. Witnesses at the marriage on 28 Feb 1823 were Richard Emery & James Emery, possibly siblings?
Next... another marriage licence dated 12 Mar 1821 for William Sharman, yeoman of Eaton Socon, bachelor to Rebecca Emery of Eaton Socon, mother Sarah Emery, but is doesn't mention father name - could be dead?. Witness to the marriage are Sarah Emery, her mother ? or her sister? Other witness was Samuel Green. In later censuses Rebecca Sharman was born 1804 Wyboston.
Also of interest, Beds Archives has the will of George Emery, farmer of Wyboston, Eaton Socon ref ABP/W 1818/30 and the will of Sarah Emery of Wyboston, Eaton Socon, widow ref ABP/W 1835/37..... might be good to take a look at these ! however I cannot find burials in 1818 & 1835 ... but there is a marriage of George Emery to Sarah Longland on 19/5/1785 at ES, by licence... could be ?
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Thanks for the replies, you've given me lots to go on and I will get back to you.
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I know this is an old post, but I have only just discovered it while researching my family name and anyway the facts should never change! I read with much interest (over a few days!) as my late father Raymond Francis Sabey was a direct descendant in the male line of Thomas Sabey born 1800 Bolnhurst and therefore may also be descended from Francis. Recently I registered the surname with the Guild of One-Name Studies and began a Y-DNA project with FTDNA in order to research common heritage between family trees and test the suggestion that the surname derives from the Sabines. As Y-DNA follows male surnames, then I may also discover if the theory that Francis is Thomas's father is correct or not and if Francis Elms is his father. I have a Sabey relative who is also directly descended from Thomas in the male line and I am waiting for his Y-DNA results so if I can find any other male holders of the surname Sabey (especially if they are directly descended from Samuel) with Y-DNA profiles to join the project then we are on the way to finding the skeleton in the cupboard, .....or not! Please be in touch if you can help me rattle this particular set of old bones and perhaps clear up an ancient mystery.
But anyway, if you are a male Sabey from any global branch of the name or its variants and have had your Y-DNA tested please consider joining the Project as every holder of each spelling will form a vital part of the study. If you are thinking of taking a Y-DNA test (or you are a female who could persuade Mr. Sabey to!) contact us at the Guild of One-name Studies as we offer a discounted FTDNA testing kit.
Many thanks.
https://www.familytreedna.com/my/group-join.aspx?group=Sabey
http://one-name.org/name_profile/sabey/#uqzqBC8lw01AeTqp.99