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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Suffolk => Topic started by: De Tails on Wednesday 30 October 13 02:46 GMT (UK)
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Hello from New Zealand! 8-)
May I draw on your experience and local knowledge please?
A possible ancestor from Yaxley is listed in the 1851 Census as a 20 year old Cripple and Pauper. He appears to be living with his parents and younger siblings. I'd appreciate your thoughts on two issues.
1. Given the status associated with those two categories, is it possible that he is a charge on the parish but not living in a workhouse?
2. Given as per #1, presumably no-one would claim this unless their case was serious. If this is so, does it seem credible that this person would then emigrate to Canada, establish a homestead (farm), marry, raise nine children, and live to a ripe old age?
All comments - including noting any flaws in my logic - welcome. Thanks in advance.
chrs
Sue
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A cripple is a fairly loose term , in that one maybe injured by accident or as a natural defect at birth or by the crippling disease Polio or celbral palys (*sic spelling)so an immunerator is not one to pry but if something is outstanding at time of census then it must have been a noticable injury. A pauper which is not an uncommon term in genealogy is for those who cant afford to support themselves and thus the "Poor Union" of the parish gives rise to accomodation , food and quite often employment ....... that employment may be working in the scrubery, the gardens, the kitchen or hospice or general light duties around the Workhouse.. A workhouse is for want of better words like a nursing home of todays standards however in those days were often run by folk trying to make ends meet on a very minimal allowance from the Parish wardens.
It is not uncommon to see whole families in the poor union and yes sometimes they do "run" the place..... but consider eviction from their abode or fire or other tradegy before making an assumption..... I would find local newspapers of the area you seek or read British History ONline before drawing any conclusions as to why the whole family is mentioned.
And finally in response to immigration to Canada......... there was a period in English history where the Parish Wardens and trustees accross UK did in fact elect and sponsor some families to immigrate ........ which meant they would receive passage, and a sponsor would resettle them at other end..... the sponsors may have engaged them for employment on farms as a bond..... others on rootschat can give more detailed opinion than I but I have seen lists in Canada where pauper families were given opportunity.
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Hi fastfusion - thank you for your prompt and informative reply.
May I take this a step further as I separated my posts (the other being http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=666392.0 regarding finding an address from the Census reference).
The person labelled as Cripple and Pauper is living with his folks at home - by the looks of the enumerator's comments - hence my question as to "a charge on the parish but not living in a workhouse". However, the Census sheet doesn't actually give an address, so I am lacking confirmation of that theory. :-\
Thanks also for your comments on supported assistance to Canada. I have been wondering about this but until I can clarify where they lived (and if they are actually related!) I haven't pursued this angle.
chrs
Sue
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A pauper in Scotland, anybody applying for relief, not necessarily living in the Poors House.
Any sum which the inspector paid out would be liable to be reclaimed from the paupers home parish or his near relatives.
Skoosh.
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Thanks Skoosh - makes sense.
chrs
Sue
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Hi Sue
These things are always easier to answer with a bit of detail about the person concerned.
From the other thread it looks as though he was Joshua Leeder/Leader, son of William & Jane.
William & Jane and several of their children appear in the 1861 Canada census, in Guelph - so it looks likely they emigrated as a family. In those circumstances it wouldn't be surprising if Joshua went with them, perhaps especially if had some disability and had not established a separate household in England. Depending on the type and severity of his disability it's not impossible he's the later homesteader, though it might seem a bit surprising he could manage such a physically demanding lifestyle in Canada but not earn a living in Suffolk.
Have you been able to find Canadian immigration or marriage details to assist on whether he's the same man? I see that Joshua the homesteader in Amaranth gave his birthdate as Oct 1831 and immigration date as 1852 (per 1901 Canada census).
In case he didn't travel, it may also be worth investigating the Joshua Leader marriage in Hartismere, Mar qtr 1860 and the Joshua Leader death in Hartismere, Jun qtr 1861 (Hartismere of course being the registration district covering Yaxley).
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Hi avm228
Thanks for all this! If I can start at the end: no, I haven't found any Canadian records (so far) that satisfies me that they are the same person. I will follow-up on the Hartismere marriage - thanks muchly.
Re: Joshua at Amaranth - this is what I have so far:
1861 Census of Canada: Joshua (31) and Mary (22) - Hallowell, Prince Edward Island. C of E; Joshua from Ireland
1861 Census of Canada: Joshua (31) and Mary (27) - Amaranth, ON; English Church; Mary from Ireland
Farther down the same page: Joshua (30) and Mary (28); English Church; Mary from Ireland.
I really wonder about the duplication, but on the Agricultural Census of same year there are two Joshuas with different land references (lines 17 and 23).
1871 Census: Age 41; born ENGLAND; Church of England,Anglican; ENGLISH
WELLINGTON NORTH/35/Amaranth/G/pg 36/C-9950/Reference: RG31 - Statistics Canada/Item Number: 149889 (that'll be copyright to Statistics Canada!)
So - he's probably one of the previous two.
However: our family records list Joshua as born in Guelph, Ontario not England, and born later than William - the first one born in Canada (1855).
I'm in the midst of trying to sort out the various Leader clans which settled in Canada. At the moment I have the clusters of:
at 1851 Census:
- Hallowell/Prince Edward Island
- Blenheim/Oxford/Canada West (Ontario)
- Southwold/Elgin/Canada West
- Escott/Leeds/Canada West
- Pittsburg/Frontenac/Canada West
- York/York/Canada West
- Norwich/Oxford/Canada West
- Lacorne/Terrebonne/Canada East (Quebec)
Our lot appears for the first time in the 1861 Census:
- Guelph/Wellington/Canada West
which fits with first Canadian-born child being in 1855.
I'd further note that some of those clans claim Irish, some German, and some are Roman Catholic, and one claims occupation as "Gentleman" (I'm guessing he's of the Anglo-Irish gentry from Cork!)
Lots more work to do, when all I was trying to sort out was whether Joshua actually came to Canada (or died before then) leaving the later boy to be named in his honor??
Aiyyee! LOL
Sue
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Well, it looks as though you've got your work cut out :D
For what it's worth, the 1852 immigration date claimed by Joshua in 1901 is consistent with the window when William & Jane must have immigrated, going by their children's birthdates. I don't think there's any sign of them (according to the censuses) having a subsequent Joshua, is there? Jane would have been about 44 when William was born so it wouldn't be surprising if he was her last.
If you haven't already done so, it may be worth your while asking Suffolk Record Office at Ipswich whether they have relevant Yaxley/Hartismere records relating to the support of Joshua - if so they may be informative as to any death or emigration.
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I reckon! :P
Actually, our line's records show four Canadian-born kids: William (1855), Jane, Marjorie, and Joshua. The others are listed as "Suffolk" with no place-name: Isabelle 1841, Thomas 1844, Robert 1845, Ellen and Frederick 1849 (twins), Ephriam [sic] (no date) and Henry 1850.
That is the root of my dilemma - it is similar to, but not the same as, the Yaxley folks. Other trees add a Suzannah chr 1836 Yaxley, Henry chr 1838 Thornham Parva, and give a Jane as an early Yaxley birth (sorry, spreadsheet not open!) I've found these records but still working through. I don't want to "claim" an ancestor for my sibs and nieces/nephews unless it's clearer than this!
Finally, I've gone round and round in ever decreasing circles trying to figure out the national archives search engine for Poor Union records, so your suggestion of going straight to the records office is most timely!
With thanks for your effort and interest -
Sue
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For the record, here is the 1851 census
Class: HO107; Piece: 1795; Folio: 613; Page: 29
Yaxley, Suffolk
Luder, William Head M 43 Farm Lab
Luder, Jane Wife F 39
Luder, Joshua Son M 20 Pauper cripple
Luder, Henry Son M 13 Farm Boy
Luder, Isabella Daugter F 11 Scholar
Luder, Thomas Son M 9 Scholar
Luder, Robert Son M 6 Scholar
Luder Shadrack (or Frederick?) Son M 2 all born Yaxley
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Yep, that's the one - tempting, eh? 8-)
Thanks for the look-up Kevin - that gives me the folio reference which I forgot to record when I saved the image of the page.
chrs
Sue
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Hello again
I have now heard back from the SRO - very helpful. Unfortunately they do not have parish records which could assist. The researcher agreed that it appeared that Joshua was living at home, so perhaps he didn't draw any relief despite the label. Also, she reckoned that the record was mis-transcribed as Luder as the original looked more like Lyder.
I'm going to leave this end of the research on Joshua for now, and shift back to the Canadian end. Thanks for all your help.
Best -
De
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hugh wallis >
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~hughwallis/IGIBatchNumbers/CountySuffolk.htm
there is not much surviving or microfilmed but the reference for what does exist is on that link.... you can if needed order that film through LDS near you
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Cool - completely new to me.
Many thanks - will have a look now. :)
chrs
De
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I may be a little late on this thread but I find it very interesting. De Tail in one of her posts mentioned Robert Leeder and Hannah from Rattlesden. I have researched this family for many years. Robert married Hannah Sewell in 1818 in Drinkstone. They came to Canada in 1825, with assisted passage, compliments of the parish of Rattlesden. They are the Leeders mentioned as living in Escott and Yonge Townships in Leeds County. This Robert was originally from Elmswell. His great grandfather, Thomas, moved to Elmswell about 1717 and married an Elmswell girl, Ann Markall. He was originally from the village of North Lopham just over the border in Norfolk. I can trace the Lopham Leeders back to the early 1500s.
As mentioned, there were several Leeder families that immigrated to Canada. I've tried to see if I could connect those families to mine but haven't had much luck. Looking at trees on ancestry it appears their descendents aren't really sure where their Leeders originated. From the Canadian census records I'm aware of the ones you have mentioned, including Robert and Jane.
Based on my research, though, it seems that a large majority of the English Leeders started in western Norfolk. That seems to be where the name is most common. Although it isn't a common name there are just enough to cause a lot of confusion.
Paul
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Hi Paul - I'm a bit late on your bit late, but interested in your post. I'm now reasonably confident that my William's father was Robert Leeder bap. Thrandeston 23/11/1766, first marriage Hannah Keeley on 30/01/1787 (bur. 26/12/1788). Robert and Hannah had a son John (bur. 03/03/1789).
Robert's second marriage was with Margaret Moy (b abt 1770) 03/11/1789, both marriages in Yaxley. They had William (b 18/06/1796, d. 6 days later), Mary b? (bur. 13/03/1798), Sarah b 07/05/1799, Susan b 30/08/1801, Henry b 17/09/1809. I still haven't found William's record, but our family date is 1804 which fits the sequence.
[Robert's parents seem to be Robert b. abt 1728 Thrandeston and Sarah b.abt 1730. His siblings are Jonathan 1769, Jane 1770, and possibly Sarah 1753, Elizabeth 1755, Mary 1757, making Robert the middle child.]
Establishing these started with the help from the good people on this forum - for which major thanks - and then I have Census and other data, so as I say reasonably confident.
I still haven't found immigration dates but they must be between 1851 and 1861 based on the Censuses.
I'm also still head-banging about Joshua the "pauper/cripple" as the Joshua in Canada is married to an Irish Elizabeth, not the English Elizabeth Robinson from Yaxley (m. 1860). I suspect that this Joshua and Elizabeth stayed in England as the transformation is otherwise huge. I've also got a Joshua's Probate to the widow Elizabeth in 1873, but it's in Holburn, Middlesex and that sounds a bit far afield. (If it is them they had five children 1861 - 1868).
Anyone know if Elizabeth Robinson in Yaxley was Irish? (Or, did Joshua actually marry Amelia Baker - Hartismere 4a613 - if so the joke is on everyone who's put Amaranth Joshua in their tree!)
De
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Good Evening all and Happy New Year!
It's quite awhile since I've been back here and there's been a lot of progress in the research on my Leader/Leeder and Aldrich/Aldrige line. Despite a *lot* of work, I still can't determine the Cripple/Pauper meaning so will have to wait for parish records to go online - if any survive from Yaxley.
Joshua Leeder b. 1831, Yaxley, Suffolk and his Irish Elizabeth/Mary Elizabeth Armstrong b 1832 (resident 1861 onwards in Amaranth, Dufferin, Ontario, Canada) remain frustratingly elusive with respect to where they got married (not the 1860 Hartismere record!) I can see why other Canadian branches of the family have claimed them.
However: major success with finally tracking down William Leeder/Leader's birth in Yaxley. Turned out to be either 1806 or 1807** - January 25, in Yaxley, and the record clearly confirms that Robert Leader and his wife Margaret late Moy are the parents. That confirms the help which you all gave in pointing me in the right direction.
Our Family Tree is online on my website and this is regularly updated - please see Profile for URL.
Once again - Many Thanks for helping a then Newbie. :D
** 1806 at top of page and 1807 inserted later - with thanks to JoAnn Clark.
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Paul said:
I may be a little late on this thread but I find it very interesting. De Tail in one of her posts mentioned Robert Leeder and Hannah from Rattlesden. I have researched this family for many years. Robert married Hannah Sewell in 1818 in Drinkstone. They came to Canada in 1825, with assisted passage, compliments of the parish of Rattlesden. They are the Leeders mentioned as living in Escott and Yonge Townships in Leeds County. This Robert was originally from Elmswell. His great grandfather, Thomas, moved to Elmswell about 1717 and married an Elmswell girl, Ann Markall. He was originally from the village of North Lopham just over the border in Norfolk. I can trace the Lopham Leeders back to the early 1500s.
As mentioned, there were several Leeder families that immigrated to Canada. I've tried to see if I could connect those families to mine but haven't had much luck. Looking at trees on ancestry it appears their descendents aren't really sure where their Leeders originated. From the Canadian census records I'm aware of the ones you have mentioned, including Robert and Jane.
Based on my research, though, it seems that a large majority of the English Leeders started in western Norfolk. That seems to be where the name is most common. Although it isn't a common name there are just enough to cause a lot of confusion.
Paul
I have spent considerable time in tracking down and trying to eliminate all Joshua Leeder/Leaders in England who weren't the pauper/cripple who apparently went to Canada. In the end, and in trying to trace the parents of Robert Leader/Leader bap. 1766, I have ended up working on what has become a "reconstruction of families" exercise and I only wish I had remembered what Paul said back then! He's quite right, all links *seem* to lead north! At this rate I'm going to end up with a one-name study!
"They" did try to warn me that this is a potentially addictive hobby! ;D
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Hi De,
Can't figure out how to reply to your message. If you would like to discuss Leeders my email is Removed
Paul
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Hi Paul
if De Tails has sent you a personal message, it should be in your personal message folder, which is on the brown strip under the forum banner.
If not you have replied to his message on the forum by using the blue reply button.
I know you haven't been here since 2015, you might find our Help section(again in the brown strip) useful.
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Dawn
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Thanks dawnsh - we're sorted. :)