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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Northumberland => Topic started by: Anydogsbody on Wednesday 30 October 13 21:57 GMT (UK)
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I have recently confirmed from research at the Northumberland archives that my ggggrandmother was Ann Swan, born Horton by Blyth on 06 July 1803. her husband was William Young. They had at least four children Euphemia, my gggrandmother( born Detchant, christened Belford March 1824), Ann (1830, Netherwitton), Mary (1828, Hartburn) and Jane (1839, Netherwitton)
Ann (1803) I believe had a sister, Barbara. Were there any other siblings?
Ann(1803)'s parents were Robert Swan(n) and Isabella Hindmarsh who married 07 AUG 1802 at Horton.
Robert Swan's parents were Robert Swan(born Horton by Blyth) and Dorothy Gilhespey (I have seen this misinterpreted as Githespey) who married at Cramlington 03 NOV 1772.
Does anybody have any sound information on this family? Does anyone know of any linkage between this Swan family and the Darlings, most notably Grace Darling, of Bamburgh, Alnwick etc
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Hi
Here's two more
Margaret bp. 25 Apr 1813, St Mary the Virgin, Horton. Parents: Robert and Isobel
Abode : Cowpen , fathers Occ. farmer.
Dorothy bp. 6 Aug 1815, St Mary the Virgin, Horton. Parents: Robert and Isobel
Abode: Cowpen High House, occ. husbandman.
claire
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and more from familysearch
Thomas bp 10 March 1811, born 3 February 1811. Horton
Isabella " 20 July 1806 " 18 April 1806 "
Robert " 2 April 1809 " 2 May 1808 "
Mary " 5 May 1805 " 22 December 1804 "
claire
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Thanks for that. This really is an astonishing website, I'm constantly amazed at the depth and diversity of peoples' knowledge.
Richard
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Hi
Here is a link to the marriage licence, not sure if you had seen it
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-266-11883-149518-36?cc=1675690&wc=MMBR-5GN:n1308011265
second page
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-266-11883-148124-34?cc=1675690&wc=MMBR-5GN:n1308011265
claire
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No, hadn't seen that. I'm intrigued by the second page and don't really understand the implications of what is being agreed to.
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Hi
Not sure I understand it myself ???
Here's a link to the registers for Horton, starting with the marriage
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-11607-111925-22?cc=1309819&wc=MMRX-YZ7:n1048015778
claire
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A wee bit of geography.....
I was born and brought up in the colliery village of Bebside. In its one main street
it had one pit and one farmhouse. Pit has gone, but the farmhouse still stands, but alas
in very poor state. As a child I spent time on the farm with farmer's children. The farmer's
one employee was referred to as " the hind" !
Bebside village was born c1850s, after mineshaft was sunk. It lay within the bounds of the
Township of Cowpen. Cowpen was one of the 5 Townships that comprised the parish of Horton.
The farmhouse was at time referred to as Cowpen High House.
See it on maps via the below links, with Horton chapel to the south.
http://communities.northumberland.gov.uk/006972FS.htm
http://communities.northumberland.gov.uk/007179FS.htm
http://communities.northumberland.gov.uk/006829FS.htm
Michael
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Michael
For some reason I can't open those links at the moment, they are apparently temporarily unavailable.
Referring to Robert Swan, I presume that his occupation as farmer/husbandman would equate to being the owner or tenant of the farm rather than being, as you put it, "the hind".
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Managed to open the links now. Thanks for the information, that really sets Robert and Isabella in context.
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I am a hamfisted techie. You managed the links cos I corrected my first unsuccessful attempt.
The marriage details link of Horton records refer to Robert as a " horse-keeper"
Michael
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Claire
Reading Page 2 of the licence more carefully it's fairly obvious what it is.
Robert Swan and William Blearup( if I've read it correctly) are agreeing to pay a fine to the Bishop of Durham if it should transpire that Robert and Isabella are not legally able to marry or that the relationship is incestuous("consanguinity and affinity").
£200 was a heavy penalty in 1802 and I would guess that William was there as guarantor of the bond and that, in view of the magnitude of the fine, he would make very sure that all was in order.
Richard
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Claire
Some time ago I was aware of Swans and Darlings cohabiting on various census returns.
Ann Swan, 1803 from your your search had a brother Thomas,1811. Together with his wife, Isabella, they appear on the 1881 census for Durham, Hedworth, Monkton and Jarrow at 1 Staple Row along with William (H?) Darling and the relationship is given as cousin.
That's the first time I've been able to pull the Swan/Darling trees together in any credible way.
Good work team!! Now need to chase Wm Darling back and see where he fits in to the picture.
Richard
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Found a marriage you may be interested in.
Not sure how or if they fit in,
St Michael Bt, Alnwick
By Licence 28 May 1828
Robert DARLING widower and Mary SWAN widow,
Witnesses: Edward Lennox and Mary Keen.
claire
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Thanks, I'll take a look at that.
I think I've got his baptismal record at Embleton
William Henry Darling, son of Henry and Isabella, 17 JUN 1821. Father's occupation given as husbandman(farmer)
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Afternoon anydogsbody
Thanks for the msg on ancestry but it leaves one question i Have.... in the marriage of Robert and Isabel, the robert who was the witness and possibly Roberts father is down as Yeoman, what was the term used for in the 1802. I always thought it was a soldier or member of the military. As the Robert who married Isabel is my 4th great grand uncle.
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My Line comes from Lydia Swan born 1775 Cowpen, Daughter of Robert & Dorothy.
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Claire there was another at Long Horsley in 1844.
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Sherekhan
My head's spinning with all these names. Everyone seems to be called Robert or Thomas or Isabel or Isabella over several generations and I think I've slipped a generation. When I found Robert Swan 1774 married to Isabella Watson with parents Dorothy and Robert I naturally assumed that was the one I was looking for but I think your Thomas 1789 makes more sense. Could Thomas 1774 be a very late son of the previous generation i.e. Robert Swan and Dorothy Rickerby?
Anyway, Thomas Swan 1811, Ann Swan 1803's brother is the one I was really after because he links in nicely with William H Darling on the Jarrow census.
Without referring to your tree I think that I am descended from Lydia's brother Robert 1779 which would make our common ancestors Robert Swan and Dorothy Gilhespey. Your 4th great grand uncle is my 4gGrandfather
Incidentally, yeoman is, I think, a general and possibly slightly euphemistic term for peasant. It perhaps came to be used in a military sense when regiments were raised from the rural inhabitants of the country; the Blankshire Yeomanry etc
Richard
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right now to put another spanner in the works LOL
Willaim Gledson 1748 - 1847 married Isabel Swan in Bedlington in 1770. John Gledson his son married Lydia Swan (1774) from our tree. Is it possible these Swan families were in fact one and the same.
Paul
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I presume Isabel Swan was not a known relative of Lydia Swan otherwise, if you read further back in this thread and look at the marriage licence of Robert Swan and Isabel Hindmarsh you'll see why, William might have found himself paying a hefty fine for violating the conditions of consanguinity and affinity.
I have come across a number of situations where two sisters have married two brothers and one situation where on the demise of a sister and a brother the remaining couple who were previously sister-in-law and brother-in-law became husband and wife. That sort of thing ties your family tree in knots.
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It was not Illegal to marry a cousin or second cousin, all I know about this other Isabel is that she had a brother(yet another) Robert b 1747.
Paul
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Perhaps if some nice person could try to find the marriage in Bedlington of William Gladson and Isabel swan(n) in 1770 on the Bishops transcripts we might have a better idea. In 1812 John Gledson Williams son was a Miller. John was born 05 Nov 1770 in East Sleekburn, Bedlington.
Paul
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Hi
A Yeoman:
In the late 14th to 18th centuries, yeomen were farmers who owned land (freehold, leasehold or copyhold) and their wealth and the size of their landholding varied.
Thought you might be interested in this
http://be.convdocs.org/docs/index-104721.html?page=9
claire
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Claire
So yeomen were sort of posh peasants ;-)
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Claire, thanks for the link to the Swanns of Bedlington. Well done for finding that.
Haven't had a chance to read through it in detail yet but I was interested in the origins of the name. Do all the Northumbrian Swans have the same progenitor?
R
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BAPTISMS, Holy Trinity, Embleton;
DARLING, Parents HENRY and ISABELLA;
WILLIAM HENRY, 17 June 1821
JOHN BELL, 25 May 1823
HENRY, 07 Aug 1825
ROBERT DIXON, 05 Oct 1828
All have abode as Embleton, Fathers Occp Farmer/Husbandman or Shopkeeper
(Source FreeREG)
From Familysearch.Org to them also;
JANE ISABELLA, 01 Aug 1830, Ulgham
BURIAL;
ISABELLA Darling, 03 June 1840, St Cuthberts, Bedlington, age 49
1841 Census
Bedlington, Durham
HO107/296/1/Bedlinton
Henry DARLING, 40, Coach Pro.
Margaret, 30
WILLIAM H, 20, Mason
Robert D, 12
Jane Isaac, 10
THOMAS, 7
MARRIAGE from FreeREG;
05 Dec 1840, St Mary, Morpeth, Northumberland
Henry DARLING, Widower, Coach Proprietor, abode Bedlington, Father WILLIAM Darling a Farmer
Margaret JACKSON, Father John JACKSON a Surgeon
1851 Census Henry/Margaret have 4 young Children and WiILLIAM/THOMAS Darling are visting with THOMAS/ISABELLA Swan in Cowpen.
Trish :)
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Thanks Trish
I was aware of the baptismal details and would like to be able to trace back the origins of Henry in particular, looking for the link to Grace Darling, but also Isabella in search of the link which justifies Thomas and Isabella Swan and William Henry Darling being described as cousins on the 1881 census.
I noted on the marriage cert that Margaret Jackson appears to come from Ascot ( if I'm reading it correctly). Very out of area and one can only wonder how a northumbrian farmer meets an Ascot surgeons daughter in 1840.
I'm contemplating starting a new thread because this is drifting off topic i.e it's now more about Darlings than Swans. As ever, I've been hugely impressed by the volume of assistance on this and it has certainly driven things forward……or should that be backwards?
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yes Richard, we have drifted off Swan's, see you started another thread. I had a thread on Gledson some time ago here is the link http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=567780.0
Paul
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Sherekhan
Checked the Horton Transcripts. Seems to be a bit of hole around 1774 when Thomas would have been born but can't see any record.
Does Bedlington come under Horton in the transcripts…..can't see a separate listing for it
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Sherekhan
Claire posted a link to a document which you should read if you haven't done so already.
http://be.convdocs.org/docs/index-104721.html?page=9
I hadn't realised that I already had this document. The original is the Peacock tree which you can get if you Google "Dorothy Rickerby" "Robert Swan". I have tried copying a link to this for you but it doesn't work. Just to complicate matters the original, which runs to 140 pages, is in Rich Text Format .rtf which won't open on my Mac and is a bit tricky even on a PC. I was eventually able to open it by converting it to .pdf and then saving it as .doc.
Technicalities aside this piece of research gives us some problems in that the son of Robert Swan and Dorothy Rickerby is given as Robert 1759 not 1750 and he is married to Mary Brown not Dorothy Gilhespy.
Take a look. If you want the full 140 pages I can email you a Word .doc version if you can't get it to open.
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Incidentally, Thomas Swann 1774 reappears in this b. Bedlington 22 May 1774. The fly in the genealogical ointment is that this doc has him dying in 1776 whereas according to my research he married Isabella Watson in 1791…..can't both be right.
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Hi Richard, If you could e-mail me would be great as the website it is using has been blocked.
phood59@hotmail.co.uk
Paul
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Can anyone help me pin down Robert Swan, the husband of Isobel Hindmarsh, who were married in 1802. Their daughter Ann Swan 1803 was my gggGrandmother and I'm very content that is correct.
According to the Horton BTs Robert was a native of this parish and, according to the marriage licence, was 30 in 1802. So we're looking for a Robert Swan born Horton around 1772. Can't see one in the BTs but might have missed it.
I would really like to know who Robert's parents were. Clearly we are descended from the Swans of Bedlington but exactly who Robert's ancestors were is unclear and some previous assumptions are looking a bit shaky.
I am aware, I think from the IGI, of a Robert Swan, Bedlington, 1779 who I had previously assumed was the right one but recent info now makes this look a bit late.
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Although Robert is mentioned as a native of Horton, it does not mean he was married there as he quite possibly got married in the parish of his wife.
Paul
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Isobel is from Bedlington and Robert " a native of the Chapelry of Horton". Am I right in thinking that Bedlington comes under Horton as far as the BTs are concerned so marrying in her parish rather than his would not affect the record location?
It's a birth record that I'm looking for for Robert and the Horton BT clearly says he's a local lad so Horton was the obvious place to look.
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My assumption of native is that he may not have been born there but lived there, which might possibly fit in.
Paul
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Richard, Bedlington was a parish in its own right and does not form part of Horton. The BT's are not online for this parish, but some kind person might have the fiche and provide us with some information.
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Marriages from church records on Genuki Bedlington supplied by George Bell.
29 Apr 1819 John Swann = Ann Freeman
28 Dec 1834 Thomas Charlton = Dorothy Swan
The following parishes are adjacent to Bedlington:- Bothal, Horton, Morpeth, Stannington, Woodhorn.
C of E records - Bedlington, St Cuthbert: Records of baptisms 1653-1950, marriages 1653-1955 and burials 1653-1937 are available at Northumberland Archives Service. Bishops' Transcripts for the period 1760-1858 are deposited at Durham University Library Archives and Special Collections, Palace Green, Durham City. The International Genealogical Index (I.G.I.) includes baptisms 1643-1812 and marriages 1653-1812 for this parish, Boyd's Marriage Index includes marriages 1653-1812 and banns 1751-1777. Transcripts of baptisms, burials and marriages 1653-1812 are available at Newcastle Central Library, Local Studies Dept. A transcript of monumental inscriptions at Bedlington (microfiche TN72) is published by Northumberland and Durham Family History Society and these records are also available in book form at Newcastle Central Library, Local Studies Department.
Paul
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Richard I have sent a message to another group I am a member of so might get some info back from them.
Paul
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How many of those records are online? Living in the north of Scotland which is considerably more than a short bus ride from just about everywhere else can be a real nuisance at times.
Without reference to it, if I recall correctly the Swan/Charlton connection appears in the document I sent you by email.
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Hi
Have checked the Horton registers and can't find Robert's baptism, (although there are for other children of Robert and Dorothy)
He was 30 years old on his marriage licence and the only baptism I can find is this one
Robert Swann bp. 3 May 1772 Alnwick. Father: James
claire
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Very useful, Claire. Thanks for doing that. Were you able to check Bedlington? I feel there are a lot of answers on the BTs for Bedlington but unfortunately they are not online.
It's very tempting to think of this as the right connection just because of the date but we need more corroboration. It would be great to establish if, for example, James was a son of Robert Swan & Dorothy Rickerby or something similar.
The document you highlighted re the Swans of Bedlington gives Mary Brown as the wife of Robert Swan not Dorothy Gilhespy as we have it. Robert himself was the son of Robert Swan & Dorothy Rickerby. This line of succession ( Robert Swan = Mary Brown) was also given in an extensive piece of research I have been sent privately from Pat in the USA.
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Hi
I think the two Roberts in Bedlington are father and son , found these on IGI
Ann 18 July 1762 Bedlington, dau of Robert and Dorothy
William 16 March 1766 " son " "
Thomas 22 May 1774 " " " "
Robert 16 September 1759 " " "
Margaret 12 December 1756 dau " "
Children of Robert and Mary in Bedlington
Dorothy bn 26 June 1799, chr. 11 August 1799 dau of Robert Swann and Mary Brown
Ann 19 May 1793
Robert 21 December 1794
John 26 February 1797
Mary born 27 December 1807, chr. 14 February 1808
I'm actually getting confused at the how many Robert Swan/n 's there are around!!!!
claire
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Me too!
I think there's something wrong with what we have as the accepted version of events and I think it stems from the confusion of Roberts and Dorothys round about the mid 1770s. Dorothy Gilhespy is currently the favoured wife of the later Robert but I suspect that is completely wrong and that should now be Mary Brown.
From Sherekhan's point of view I'm sure he would want to have that accurate and from mine, if Mary Brown is correct, then it gives a totally different line of descent which does not give rise to Ann Swan 1803, the daughter of Robert(Groan!!) Swan and Isabel Hindmarsh and my gggGrandmother so I need to keep looking.
We'll get there but might take a while.
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Right
This is the burial records for Robert and Dorothy's son, age fits for 1759 birth
St Cuthbert, Bedlington
Robert Swan buried 21 May 1826, aged 66.
This is your Ann Swan's fathers burial, abode consistent with baptism records of children
St Mary the Virgin, Horton
Robert Swan buried 25 Sep 1819, aged 50 (birth abt. 1769-1770)
Abode: Cowpen High House.
claire
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Claire
That helps to establish that my own line of descent is not directly from Robert Swan 1759, son of Robert Swan and Dorothy Rickerby.
There's a slight mismatch between Robert Swan's age at death(50) as against his age at marriage.
Marriage licence would make him born 1772 (30 in 1802) whereas age as declared on death would give him a birth year of around 1769-70, as you say.
I'm more inclined to believe his own statement of age on his marriage application rather than what may be someone else's recollection of his age at death but it might be worth looking back at the Horton Transcripts slightly earlier.
I would guess that his father(probably Robert, why be different?) would have been born 1750ish but where?
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Claire/Paul
I've been getting the feeling that Cowpen High House and the association with Swans was important.
Found this at Horton St Mary the Virgin which may be useful. I need to try and reconcile dates on this gravestone with Horton BTs but the names and the location are spot on for my family.
http://www.gravestonephotos.com/public/gravedetails.php?available=yes&grave=289277&personid=619306
My brain is numb with all these Swans so I'll leave it until tomorrow before I tackle that but I sense we might be about to get some sort of breakthrough.
Would welcome your thoughts
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Hey!!
That looks very promising indeed ;D ;D ;D
claire
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Found one baptism in Horton so far
Joseph Swan bp. 20 September 1773 Horton by Blyth. Parents: Joseph and Ann
claire
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others
Robert bp. 7 May 1767 Horton, parents: Joseph and Ann
Mary bp. 4 September 1768, Horton, parents: Joseph and Ann
I think this is your family!!!!
claire
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Claire
The real problem I'm having with this is with Isabella Hindmarsh who apparently was 27 when she married Robert Swan in 1802 and that doesn't square with the date on the gravestone.
Horton BTs give children of Joseph and Ann Swan, Cowpen
Joseph 20/9/1773
Ann 22/7/1770
I can't see a birth record for Mary but there's a death on 20/9/1773.
Bizarrely it would appear that Mary's death coincided with Joseph's birth.
BTs also record the death of Ann Swan 3/3/1771 and in July 1772 the death of "a child of Joseph Swan, Cowpen.
Robert, I presume, is the husband of Isabella but why is she described as a cousin when she was actually a sister-in-law?
So, there are a few inconsistencies to sort out but overall I feel this is a step forward.
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I think our posts crossed but you've come to the same conclusion as me. Keep digging!
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Hi
Remember the Isabella Hindmarsh that was married to Robert~ would be a 'Swan' when she died
This burial will be her
Isabella SWAN buried 22 Feb 1817 St Mary the Virgin, Horton.
Aged: 40
Abode: Cowpen High House.
The Isabella Hindmarsh on the gravestone must be another rellie we've yet to suss out ;D
claire
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In the 1841 census for Horton
Joseph Swan 60 farmer
Dorothy " 20 orphan
Isabella Hindmarsh 40 inmate
Hill Cat farm next door was occupied by another Joseph Swan Jnr.
Cowpen Red House Farm next to that was occupied by a William and Ann Darling.
in the 1851 census for Horton
Dorothy Swan hd 34 S grocer bn Cowpen
Isabella Hindmarsh 64 S COUSIN " Tilton
1861 census
Dorothy Swan hd S 43 grocer bn Cowpen
Isabella Hindman S 73 AUNT bn Felton
Not quite sure who Isabella is yet !!
claire
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Right
From Robert and Isabella's marriage licence Isabella was from Bedlington and 27 yrs old. This must be her baptism
Isabella bp. 6 August 1775 Bedlington. Parents: Thomas and Isabel Hindmarsh.
The other Isabella (on the gravestone born abt. 1787) was from Felton, where there is this baptism
Isabella bp. 9 Jan 1785 Felton, father: Richard.
My guess is that the father of these two Isabella's were probably brothers ~ well maybe!
claire
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If you should find a connection to the Rothbury Swann's then the 1816 Bible Cenus may be of interest:
"Page 68. Alexander SWANN is an industrious Weaver in his sixty-eighth year, is married and has a daughter thirty years old, complains that Rothbury Beer bought at two pence a gallon is bad!, is going to live under Mr. STONER, has a clean copy of the Whole Duty of Manna Bible, a Testament and two Prayer books, and wants a Bible in large print.
Total: 3 Persons, 1 Bible, 1 Testament, 2 Prayer Books
Page 43 John SWANN is a joiner, he and his journeyman are Presbyterians but his Father, Mother and sister, who live with him attend the Church. The sister spins a pound of yarn per day with a double handed wheel. there are three Bibles and two Prayer books in the house which has every appearance of comfort and industry.
Total: 9 Persons, 6 Bibles, 2 Prayer Books "
I have an ancestor Ann Wintroup who was born April 1703 and her mother was Eleanor Swann who would therefore have been born in the late 1600's. They too lived around Rothbury.
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Claire! Do you ever sleep??
I was aware of the Felton chapter of Swans from a marriage of Robert Swan(Felton,1678) to Jane Bell in Bothal 1703.
It will take me a while to assimilate all this. Naming conventions were quite different in those days but if I'm reading this right then Robert Swan lost his wife, Isabella Swan ms Hindmarsh, to then cohabit with a cousin of the same name.
The Isabella baptism 1775 looks right for a marriage 1802 age 27.
Yet again we see a Darling/Swan connection. This one may be coincidence but then again!!
Malcolm33: I had a quick look at my available Swan info and couldn't see an immediate Swann/Rothbury connection. Keep watching the thread because new stuff is turning up all the time.
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Claire
I was looking at the picture of the gravestone at Horton and noticed that the stone behind also had an inscription which looked suspiciously like Swan. Here's the link to the inscription; I reckon that completes the family.
http://www.gravestonephotos.com/public/gravedetails.php?available=yes&fullname=Isabella%20Swan&grave=289272&personid=619290&db=289272
I think the full inscription on the first stone reads:
To the memory of Mary Swan daughter of Joseph Swan of Cowpen who died September……….aged 7 years.
Ann her mother died December 3…….aged 72 years
The above Joseph Swan died September 2……..1826 aged 82 years
Joseph his son died February 12 1851 aged 76 years.
Isabella Hindmarsh his niece ( I presume that means of Joseph Swan Snr) died May 19 1861 aged 74 years.
Dorothy daughter of Robert Swan( see the other gravestone inscription) of Cowpen High House and grand-daughter of the above Joseph Swan died April 9 1813 aged 57 years.
I think we could probably fill in the blanks from the Horton BTs
I have to thank http://www.gravestonephotos.com for the information which has been invaluable in clarifying this branch of the Swan family.
I do wonder though if the Swans suffered from an appalling lack of imagination when naming their children. All males were called Robert and all females were called Isabella with the odd Dorothy or Joseph thrown in occasionally.
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Claire
Going back over this thread and picking out the kernels of truth from the various observations I think the lineage looks like this:
Generation 1
Joseph Swan=Ann ……………plus Isabella Hindmarsh((from gravestone 1, sister or sister-in-law of Joseph
Generation2
Robert Swan bp 7/5/1773 buried Horton 25/9/1819 m Isabel Hindmarsh(Bedlington,bp 6/8/1775 and daughter of Thomas and Isabel Hindmarsh)
Mary Swan bp 4/9/1768 buried 20/9/1773(per gravestone 1 but which makes her age 5 not 7)
Ann Swan bp 22/7/1770 bur 3/3/1771
Joseph Swan bp 20/9/1773
Generation 3
Children of Robert Swan and Isabel Hindmarsh:
Ann Swan 1803 (married William Young 1823)
Mary Swan b 22/12/1804 bp 5/5/1805
Isabella Swan b 18/4/1806 bp 20/7/1806
Robert Swan b 2/4/1808 bp 2/5/1808
Thomas Swan b 3/2/1811 bp 10/3/1811 Horton
Margaret Swan bp 25/4/1813 Cowpen. Father: Farmer
Dorothy Swan bp 6/8/1815 Cowpen High House. Father :Husbandman
Generation 4
Children of Ann Swan and William Young
Euphemia Young, Detchant, my ggGrandmother bp Belford 1824
There were other siblings but I've left them out for clarity.
I think Isabella Swan must have been the sister/sister in law of Joseph Swan Snr which justifies her age and status as Aunt in the 1861 census. (Modification; probably the next generation. Could she be a further sibling of Robert 1767? Age on 1861 census would make her born about 1787ish)
It's a bit odd to see Dorothy described as an orphan at age 20. Technically that's correct though because both her parents had died by the time she was 4.
Questions still to be answered are:
Who was the Joseph Swan, Farmer aged 60, in the 1861 census? His age doesn't fit with either of the two known Josephs. Could he have been the Joseph Swan from the farm next door?
Who exactly was Isabella Hindmarsh. It would be good to pin down the family connection.
Would welcome your thoughts
Richard
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Hi Richard,
Do you mean Joseph Swan aged 60 farmer in 1841 census?
Remember ages were rounded down etc. in this census, I think this Joseph is the one buried 1851 aged 76 (on the gravestone), brother to Robert and son of Joseph and Ann.
All I know about Isabella Hindmarsh is that she was unmarried ( info from census's ), so was a Hindmarsh from birth, born in Felton, see reply #55.
claire
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Yup! That's the one. Thanks for the correction, I've got so many scribbles on bits of paper that I misread that one. Didn't know about rounding down though. I thought, if anything, ages were rounded up.
Need to look at Isabella again, I'd like to get it straight in my mind where she fits in.
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18 Nov 1773 Priscilla Swan bap Robert & Dorothy Swan Cowpen
nothing then on BT tll 1777
28 Aug 1777 Jane Swan bap Robert & Dorothy Swan Cowpen
1 Jul 1781 Joseph Swan bap Robert & Dorothy Swan Cowpen High House
18 Jun 1784 John Swan bap Robert & Dorothy Swan
27 May 1787 James Swan bap Robert & Dorothy Swan Cowpen High House
18 Jan 1792 George Swan bap Robert & Dorothy Swan Cowpen High House
8 Jan 1797 Mary Swann bap Robert & Dorothy Swann (Gilhespy) Wheatridge Eardon Parish
29 Jun 1798 John Swan Bur Robert & Dorothy Swan (Gilhespy) Wheatridge Earsdon Parish
Paul
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Hi Claire,
In your research have your came across Ann Swan who married Joseph Clarke in Stannington on 23 March 1812. I'm researching my mother's family tree who are the Clark(e) family who I have traced back to the Stannington area, they lived at Shotton Edge for a time.
Thanks - Patrick
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Hi Patrick
Welcome to Rootschat :D
What kind of info are you looking for ? I ( and others I'm sure ) will do my best to help.
claire
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Hi
Think this maybe her baptism, although it's very hard to read ( right on the fold of the page )
Ann bp. 1 June 1888, dau. of Henry and Isobel Swan, Stannington.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-11930-23524-24?cc=1309819&wc=M6KG-TPD:13617901,30647501,30647502
claire
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Thanks for info Claire and for welcoming me :)
I am trying to track my ancestors back as far as I can so any info on Ann Clark would be a big help.
Thanks again.
Patrick
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Hi
After further looking that isn't Ann's baptism, that surname is Towns, parents married in Stannington the year before.
There are no SWAN bmd's in the register upto about 1795, will do some more digging tomorrow, it's getting a bit late now.
claire :)
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Thanks very much Claire.
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Looking back at the gravestone evidence round about post 59 and working back I've come up with the following.
We know that Robert Swan married Isabel Hindmarsh from the marriage licence etc and that his age was 30 in 1802. Various years of birth appear for Robert according to whose research you look at but I think in the light of his own declaration in 1802 the date of baptism of 7/5/1773 is likely to be accurate.
His parents we know(from the gravestone evidence) are Joseph Swan and Ann ?
Joseph was 82 in 1826(from the gravestone evidence) making his year of birth 1744. A Joseph Swan was born in Horton, Blyth on 14th June 1744 with parents Robert Swan and Lydia or Lidia. He is the only credible option for the Joseph Swan we are looking for. Joseph Swan subsequently married Ann Hindmarsh on 22/5/1766 and so we begin to see that the Swans and the Hindmarsh's were intermarried over several generations.That may help to explain the tangle of Roberts, Isabels, Isabellas etc.
Going back further, as mentioned previously, Joseph(1744) had parents Robert Swan and Lidia/Lydia.
A Robert Swan married a Lidia Turpin on 9/7/1741 and I believe them to be Joseph Swans parents.
This appears to be the introduction of the forename Lydia into the tree and it reappears later as Lydia Swan in a granddaughter and in Lydia Gledson. I know that others have a Gledson connection to Swans.
Happy to have comments. Can anyone else add to this?
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Hi
That all seems to be coming together nicely. :)
I've just been checking some old Wills (plenty of Swan and Hindmarsh's but none of yours that I can see), but there is a Will of a William Gledson ( wife ~ Isabella ) of Bedlington dated 1814, whose executor is his Brother-in Law, James Gledson a farmer, who lives at COWPEN HIGH HOUSE.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-13034-25855-55?cc=2358715&wc=9PQ5-5QD:1078414773
This is the same time that your family are living there, are the Gledson's related to your family ~ I'm very confused :-\ but enjoying the hunt !! ;D
claire
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Hi Claire
Yes, there is I believe a Gledson connection although not in my direct line. Sherekan, who contributes here is a direct Gledson descendant so we are distantly related.
I couldn't find a Robert Swan, son of Joseph and Ann born in 1772. There is a "child of " Joseph Swan, Cowpen in the Horton BTs on 3/7/1772 but I'm not sure what that means. I suspect it might be a non surviving child being baptised quickly but would be interested in your views.
Looking back at the marriage licence I see that the age is recorded as 30 years and upwards so Robert's birth would appear to have been within the decade preceding 1772 which may make life easier. Others are active in this line and the standard version has become that Dorothy Rickerby and ? Gilhespy(can't remember her name offhand) figure as the Swan wives. The discovery of the Horton grave records may force a review of that.
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Claire
Robert Swan, 7th May 1767, s/o Joseph and Ann Swan, Horton by Blyth will be the one.
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Working back from my 2ggrandmother Ann Swan 1803 my ancestry now looks like this using evidence from available records and the evidence of the Swan family graves at St Mary the Virgin, Horton. I have left out for simplicity the evidence details but can provide them if anyone needs them.
Generation1
Ann Swan 1803 = William Young
Generation 2(Ann's parents)
Robert Swan (1767) = Isabel Hindmarsh(1775)
Generation 3 (Robert 1767's parents)
Joseph Swan( 1744) = Ann Hindmarsh
Generation 4 (Joseph's parents)
Robert Swan(1698) = Ly(i)dia Turpin(1711)
That's as far back as I've traced it and I'm pretty happy that the info is solid. The Swans had a long association over several generations with Cowpen High House and there was very little variation in their naming policies so names repeat frequently. It also appears that multiple generations of different branches of the family occupied the house and worked the farm giving a coincidence not just of names but of addresses in records. Unless an extremely methodical approach is taken to working the records back it is very easy to get branches and generations of the family intermingled; Roberts who appear to be sons are actually cousins etc. Just to add to the complication, perhaps there were dynastic reasons for it, the Swans seem to have commonly found wives among the Hindmarsh family. They would appear to have called all the female children Isabel with variants so there are numerous examples of Robert Swans married to Isabel or Isabella.
Other trees include Dorothy Gilhespey and Dorothy Rickerby as Swan wives. That may be true but I can't see any evidence for that in my line.
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Planning a visit to the Blyth area some time over the next few weeks. I would like to try and see the remains of Cowpen High House if anyone can help. I know it's on Front St, Bebside but would appreciate if someone could be more precise.
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Hi
Answered on the other post :)
claire
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Been away for quite a while.
With ref to http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=666493.new;topicseen#new
agreed generations 1 & 2.
generation 3 - Robert Swan 1750 - 1819 m Dorothy Gilhespy 1752 - 1808
generation 4 - Robert Swan 1720 m Dorothy Rickerby 1725 - 1803
generation 5 (?) - Robert Swan c1698 m Anne (?) c1698
generation 6 (?) - Robert Swan c1672 m Anne (?) c1672
generation 7 (?) - William Swan c1640
Sherekhan
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HI! Just to add to the mix....possibly this is Robert Swann c. 4 Oct 1677 in Woodhorn who died 27 July 1749 in Bedlington; it appears he married Anne Rand on 3 Nov 1709 in Woodhorn. This Anne appears to be chr 27 Oct 1685 in Bothal, NBL. Their age discrepancy COULD imply this was a second marriage for Robert... ??? ??? Any and all comments most welcome. patrexjax
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As per generation 3
have this in my tree
Marriage
1772 • Cramlington, Northumberland, England
as per Richard Cliff (seen marriage record, Woodhorn)
Dorothy Gilhespy (1752–1808)
Sherekhan
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Thanks Paul
I haven't looked at this for a while so I'll need to see where that fits in.
Richard
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Found this `National Archives.. Delaval Family Papers.- Delaval (Lord Waterford) MSS.ESTATES.SEATON ESTATES.. Leases original bundle of leases Whitridge Farm to Robert Swan for 15years, @ £340 per annum. Held at Northumberland Archives - - REF 2/DE/1/8/6 exp 1806
This would be Robert Swan b 1750 husband of Dorothy Gillespy.
Paul
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also this `National Archives.. West part of Lookout Farm - Delaval Family Papers.- Delaval (Lord Waterford) MSS.ESTATES.SEATON ESTATES.. Leases original bundle of leases for 3 years marked as expiring 1780, West part of Lookout Farm to Jn & Wm Swan @ £90 pa` dated 30 Dec 1775 - ref 2/DE/1/5/2
Could this be perhaps 2 brothers of Robert or Extended family still to be found
Paul
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Durham inheritance project has the probate and will of Robert Swan of Whitridge in the Parish of Earsdon,viewable online
date of probate,4th May 1838
registered copy of will,7th of April 1835
DPR/I/1/1838/S45/1-2
there are quite a few wills that may be of interest to you
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Had a look, any idea how i view the actual documents...
Paul
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you should be able to view them click on the reference number for one you want and it should come up in another window,
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Just an extract of research info attributable to R D Peacock to be found at
http://be.convdocs.org/docs/index-104721.html?page=9
Rather odd website but info looks OK
* William SWANN (Bef 1600) (d. May 1628) m. ?Jannet (Bef 1600) (1611)
. * John SWANN (ABT 1600) (9 Feb 1662) m. ? (Abt 1600)
. . * John SWANNE (Abt 1630) (May 1690) m. (4 Oct 1666) Elizabeth PATTESON
. . . * Robert SWANN (1677) (July 1749) m. (3 Nov 1709) Ann RAND ( ) (Jan 1743/4)
The above are the early generations from Woodhorn Parish.
1. Robert SWANN b. 1677, Woodhorn NBL, c. 4 Oct 1677, Woodhorn NBL, occ. Yeoman, Taylor, Baker, m. 3 Nov 1709, in Woodhorn NBL, Ann RAND, d. Jan 1743/4, Bedlington NBL, bu. 3 Jan 1743/4, Bedlington Churchyard NBL. Robert died July 1749, Bedlington NBL, bu. 27 July 1749, Bedlington Churchyard NBL.
Children:
i Elizabeth SWANN b. 1710, Bedlington NBL, c. 9 Nov 1710, Bedlington, NBL, m. 7 Nov 1732, in Bedlington NBL, Thos. EMMELTON.
ii Margaret SWANN b. 1713, Bedlington, Northumberland, c. 4 June 1713, Bedlington NBL.
2. iii John b. 1715.
iv Ann SWANN b. 1718, Bedlington NBL, c. 27 Mar 1718, Bedlington NBL, d. 1741, Bedlington NBL, bu. 2 April 1741, Bedlington Churchyard NBL.
3. v Robert b. 1720.
vi Mary SWANN b. 1722, Bedlington NBL, c. 10 June 1722, Bedlington NBL, m. 31 Jan 1744, in Bedlington NBL, Robert WHALE.
vii Sarah SWANN b. 1724, Bedlington NBL, c. 12 Nov 1724, Bedlington NBL, d. 1753, Bedlington NBL, bu. 28 June 1753, Bedlington NBL.
Second Generation
2. John SWAN b. 1715, Bedlington NBL, c. 13 Oct 1715, Bedlington NBL, occ. Weaver, Parish Clerk, m. 7 April 1745, in Horton by Blyth NBL, Mary EDINGTON, bu. 10 June 1764, Bedlington NBL. John died 29 Mar 1795, Bedlington NBL.
Children:
i Anne SWAN b. 1744, Bedlington NBL, c. 28 May 1744, Bedlington NBL.
ii Mary SWAN b. 1745, Bedlington NBL, c. 2 Feb 1745, Bedlington NBL, d. Mar 1768, Bedlington NBL, bu. 2 April 1768, Bedlington NBL.
iii Margaret SWAN b. 1748, Bedlington NBL, c. 24 Jul 1748, Bedlington NBL, d. Aug 1809, Bedlington NBL, bu. 22 Aug 1809, Bedlington NBL.
iv Isabel SWAN b. 1750, Bedlington NBL, c. 16 Sept 1750, Bedlington NBL, d. Dec 1760, Bedlington NBL, bu. 17 Dec 1760, Bedlington NBL.
v Sarah SWAN b. 1753, Bedlington NBL, c. 7 Oct 1753, Bedlington NBL.
vi Robert SWAN b. 1757, Bedlington NBL, c. 9 Jan 1757, Bedlington NBL, d. April 1776, Bedlington NBL, bu. 13 Apr 1776, Bedlington NBL.
vii John SWAN b. 1760, Bedlington NBL, c. 20 Jan 1760, Bedlington NBL, d. July 1761, Bedlington NBL, bu. 21 July 1761, Bedlington NBL.
viii John SWAN b. 1762, Bedlington NBL, c. 21 Feb 1762, Bedlington NBL, d. 6 March 1765, Bedlington NBL.
3. Robert SWANN b. 1720, Bedlington NBL, c. 14 April 1720, Bedlington NBL, occ. Labourer, m. 19 Nov 1755, in Earsdon by North Shields NBL, Dorothy RICKERBY, b. Abt 1732, d. 19 April 1803, Bedlington NBL, bu. 22 April 1803, Bedlington NBL. Robert died April 1787, Bedlington NBL, bu. 25 April 1787, Bedlington Churchyard NBL.
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Can anyone answer a question about age declaration on marriage licence applications in England in 1802?
Was the intending groom's age accurate to a specific year or was it rounded up/down for any reason?
Robert Swan, in 1802 gives his age as 30 years and upwards. Does that mean he is somewhere in his 4th decade or is it his actual age?
I am inclined to think it's his actual age because his bride to be is stated as being 27 years. If the same convention was followed i.e declaring age to the decade, then her age would be given as 20 years and upwards.
Thoughts?
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I've just skimmed all 10 pages of posts for this subject and will throw in another nugget!
MY SWANs were living in North Shields at one time, butchers. Also in North Shields at the same time was another (?) family of Swans who became the ancestors of the famous Swan Hunters shipyard family who became very rich and elevated.
MY North Shields SWANs I have traced back to Morpeth (near to many other places mentioned in previous posts!) They were butchers and in guilds in Morpeth. My earliest SWAN is John Swan b c 1785 in Morpeth NBL. Butchering (!) ran in the family, lots of the sons became butchers. Between 1811 and 1826 he moved to North shields, he'd married a local lass Sarah Kell. They must have had thriving businesses, living and working in "The Jungle" area of North Shields, possibly providing all those ships with meat. They lived at Clive Street, Swans Quay.
There were also their relation Richard Swan who lived at High House, Morpeth, a corn merchant. and another Richard Swan who was a butcher in Newcastle, also a thriving business. The name Richard Swan appears often in this tree.
Later on the North Shields lot had shipping links but so far I've not been able to prove a link between the SWAN butchers and the SWAN Hunters shipyard millionaires. They did do business together but it may be just a coincidence.
Gen in NBL England
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Hi, Swans are locally common in Northumberland if not in the other parts of the country......doesn't help.
If the line of research that I/we are following is correct I can certainly see a link to famous Swans, namely Sir Joseph Wilson Swan who(contrary to popular myth about Edison) invented the incandescent light bulb. He, I think, was a descendent of John Swan who was a son of Dorothy Rickerby.
I've wondered about the Swan Hunter connection simply because of the name coincidence and some branches of the family seem to be quite prosperous and capable but I can't see it at the moment
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recap of my Swans.
Lydia SWAN b 1775 Cowpen Baptised 6 July 1775 Horton Parish (as per Family search BT`s) unable to check on-line as 1775 page is missing. Married John Gledson 5 Aug 1797 aged 22, at Earsdon Parish (is on on-line BT`s).
On Family search https://familysearch.org/search/record/results?count=20&query=%2Bgivenname%3Alydia~%20%2Bsurname%3Aswan~%20%2Bbirth_year%3A1775-1775~ it states her parents were Robert and Dorothy Swan.
Robert b 1750 d 1819 Cowpen High House aged 69.
Dorothy daughter of Robert Swan( see the other gravestone inscription) of Cowpen High House and grand-daughter of the above Joseph Swan died April 9 1813 aged 57 years.
So looking at the quote Dorothy was probably a sister to Robert (although I have not got her in my tree. As both had a connection to Cowpen High House.
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Hi again could i draw your attention to another post.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=208467.0
Paul ;D
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Just adding this with a note of amusement and frustration. The last paragraph says it all.
Quoting from R.D Peacock's research,
6.2 The Dixons of Rothbury and Netherton
This Dixon family first appears with a fair degree of probability in the Registers of the Chapelry of Netherwitton, Northumberland, in 1765, though there is just a possibility that a marriage at Longframlington in 1744 between a James Dixon and an Elizabeth Handyside refers to the same family. Matthew Dixon, son of James & Elizabeth Dixon, was born at Birkhead in the Rothbury Forest, now merely a building but then possibly a small hamlet where quarrymen and 'open cast' miners lived (there was a quarry there in 1719). Matthew Dixon could certainly sign his name, and on the baptismal records of his children in Rothbury early in the 19thC he is shown as being a collier.
The name Rankin is Scottish (see under The Rankins of Lowick). Isobel was probably the daughter of the Robert Rankin and Isobel Reavley who were married in Eglingham in 1771, which leaves room for so far unknown brothers and sisters. The name 'Isobel', Isabel', or 'Isabella' became a family name associated with the Swanns (Aunt Adeline was the latest). For the Pigdons see the Pigdon Notes.
Clearly, the Swan(n)s never anticipated that later generations would be trying to unpick their line of descent in adopting this naming convention.
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Can anyone find a baptism record for Robert Swan at Horton, Northumberland on 7th May 1773? I must have found it before but now can't relocate it. :-[
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I think that Robert Swan was actually born in 1767 which still satisfies the condition in the marriage licence application that he was 30 yrs and upwards.
I think I'm fairly comfortable with the general Swan situation now but can anybody tell me anything about Thomas Swan's (1811) wife Isabella? They were married at Tynemouth in Q2 1850 and her ms was Paul. Can't find any more than that. Her birthplace appears variously as Plessey or Stannington.
Under her married name of Isabella Swan she appears with Thomas in various censuses. Frequently they appear with members of the Darling family and the relationship given is "cousin".
I think the Darling connection is through Thomas and Isabella but I'm unclear on whether it is his side or hers. Could her mother's ms have been Darling?
The Swan/Darling connection grows very stronger, not least because a William Darling appears on the poll register as the tenant of the Red House Farm in Cowpen at the same time as the Swans were living en masse at Cowpen High House
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1851 Isabella is born c 1821;
Thomas Swan 37
Isabella Swan 31
Robert Swan 8
Isabell Swan 6
John Swan 5
William Darling 29
Thomas Darling 17
1871 also c 1820
And she is older 1871/1881/1891
WILLIAM HENRY Darling Bapt 17 Jun 1821 Embleton to HENRY/ISABELLA
Havent yet found a bapt for Thomas Darling c 1834
It appears to me that Henry remarried;
5 Dec 1840, St Mary the Virgin, Morpeth
HENRY Darling, of age, Widower, Coach Proprietor, abode Bedlington, Father WILLIAM a Farmer
Margaret JACKSON, of age, Father JOHN Jackson a Surgeon
(FreeREG)
Burial;
ISABELLA Darling 03 Jun 1840, St Cuthbert, Bedlington age 49
(FreeREG)
Trees have Henry Darlingss Wife as Isabella BELL (I cant confirm this)
So cant really find how Thomas S or Isabella P are related to the Darlings yet.
It is possible she was a Widow also at time of 1850 Marriage.
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Hi Trish
I agree with your info from censuses etc. It's really frustrating because one can sense that the link is there but it's finding the info to back up the hunch.
My family has always been told that there was a connection with the Darlings and Grace Darling in particular. My Great-great-grandmother, Euphemia Young (1824), was described as Grace's cousin and that is supported by the fact that she was given some artefacts from the Forfarshire by Grace herself. Those are still in the family. I think the term "cousin" may apply in a very loose sense. From what I can see the farming families in north Northumberland were few in number and considerably intermarried over several generations so, in effect, everyone was everybody else's cousin to a greater or lesser extent. That said, the relationship between Euphemia and Grace seems to have been quite close.
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Its a very difficult one and as yoi say the term Cousin may be a loose one and back several generations.
Sorry I cant be more helpful.
Trish :)
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Don't know if this is any help.
While researching my family connection to Grace Darling, I have among my notes this info which may explain in part the Swan Darling connection.
Margaret Downey nee Swan Dau of Joseph Swan & Sarah b 13 11 1792, Bapt 19 11 1794.
Married Thomas Downey.
Dau. Jane Downey marr William Brooks Darling son of William Darling & Thomasine Horsley.
Sorry if it's a bit vague, but all info taken from Ancestry.
Believe Margaret Swan had a sister Isabella, but haven't tracked her down.
Marion.
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Hi Marion
Thanks for that. I was aware of the Swan/Downey/Darling connection. I first noticed it because Jane & William Brooks had a son called William Swan Darling and that straightaway suggests a maiden surname being used as a christian name. It's tantalising but I haven't been able to solidify the relationship. However, I'm busy doing a lot of research into the Bedlington Swans where, typically, there are whole generations of Roberts and Isabellas so there may be something there. As I said in an earlier post the Swans had a tradition of using Isabel and derivatives as a forename and most of the men seem to be called Robert. When you also consider that several generations lived together under the same roof and there were family branches in adjacent farms it makes the genealogy really tangled.
How did your own research go? Were you able to make the link?
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yes thanks.
Having an ancestor called Grace Darling Snowdon sort of gave the game away.
You will no doubt be aware that William Snow Downey died in Guiana when he was 19. So sad.
Marion
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Sorry Should have said William Swan Darling.
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Just a bit more of Swans
My ancestor was Margaret Swan born Blyth 1745 to Robert Swan and Mary Law they were married 1840 Horton Robert was from Bedlington
another child was son Robert who married Dorothy Gilespie
children of Robert and Dorothy were James Joseph Robert John Priscilla Jane Lydia
Lydia married John Gledson
Earsdon Headstones George death 1848 age 56 Bebside farmer
William death 1825 age 73 farmer Seaton Delaval brother john 1819 aged
76 Anne wife of William death 1824 age 73
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Some familiar names there. Can you clarify dates, 1840 doesn't seem to fit.
Haven't visited this branch of my tree for a while so I was just refreshing my memory.
I have the father of Robert(1746) Swan who married Dorothy (1752) Gilhespie or Gilhespy as Robert (1698) Swan.
I have Robert (1698) Swan's wife as Lydia(1711) Turpin otherwise we substantially agree. What evidence do you have for Mary Law as wife of Robert(1698) Swan?
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hi I did research down at Woodhorn archives for the dates but it is a while ago so I,ll look over
my hundreds of pages and hopefully find them
then get back to you the headstones inscriptions although I,ve been going to Earsdon churchyard
for many years there is a lot of erosion now on the hillside so it,s difficult to find anything that isn,t near the church gates
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Hi finally got back to this topic My robert Swan and Mary Law I think this Robert although living |Blyth is not your Robert Swan I think mine was son of John born 1705 at Bothal and is buried at Earsdon where as yours I think is the one buried at Horton
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sorry its been ages since I have been on just thought I would catch up with everybody and say Hi
Paul
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I see this is an old thread which has resurfaced, but thought I would add that one of the many Isabel Swans married George Boutflour at Woodhorn on 29 March 1785. She is recorded on a family memorial stone as Isabella Swan, she died in September 1830. The stone is eroded and has been transcribed on FindMyPast as George of Cresswell Hall but it was Cleaswell Hill, a farm. Isabel(la) lived at Newbiggin by sea before her marriage and her father was William.
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Hi,
Can I resurrect this thread again! I'm at a complete dead end.
Robert was born in Morpeth in 1833. I'm trying to find his parents and his marriage.
I can't find him in the 1841 census but assume he's in Morpeth. There's a young Robert Swan living in North Shields with his father Thomas who is a butcher/publican, but I don't think it's him, just because I don't think he ever left Morpeth.
In 1851 he is 18 years old, working as a shoemaker's apprentice. He lives in Back Way, Morpeth with his widowed mother Jane and his mother's cousin Stephen McMoran.
Robert is married in 1861, and he and his wife Margaret are still living with Robert's mother Jane in Damside, Morpeth. His mother is described as a 'butcher's widow'.
I think Stephen McMoran is the child of James McMorin, Shoemaker, b 1776 in Scotland / Terza Smith, b 1791 Morpeth. Which would presumably mean that Robert's mother was Jane McMorin.
In 1851 William and Ellen Swan are living two doors away. William is a butcher. Could Jane's husband be their son?
But I can't find Jane. Or her husband (Robert's father). Again, I've got stuck with all the Swans and all the butchers!
Any help is greatly appreciated!
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Welcome to Rootschat.
Birth Reg;
SWAN, MABEL mmn JOHNSON
GRO Reference: 1857 M Quarter in MORPETH Volume 10B Page 233
Do you have Robert/Margarets 1856 M/C to establish his Fathers name and occp?
Trish :)
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Thank you :)
And no, I haven't - their first child, Jane, was born in 1853 so presumably they married around 1852/3. I was hoping it was lurking in the depths of the internet somewhere but if it is, I haven't found it.
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It looks like Jane was born before the Marriage.
Possible Birth Reg;
JOHNSON, JANE - no mothers maiden name, so illegitimate -
GRO Reference: 1854 J Quarter in MORPETH Volume 10B Page 221
(GRO)
FreeBMD
Marriage Reg;
Sept 1856
JOHNSON Margaret Newcastle Tyne 10b 172
Robert SWAN on same page
Mabel is not reg until after the Marriage.
You will have to buy the Cert to find more about Margaret/Robert as M/C does not appear to be on line or in anyones Trees.
Having said that I think this is Margarets Baptism on FreeREG;
28 Sep 1834, St Mary the Virgin, Morpeth
MARGARET Johnson, Daug of WILLIAM/MARY
Abode Cottingwood
Father a Woodsman
1841 Census Morpeth;
William Johnson 30 Woodsman
Mary Johnson 30
George Johnson 9
Margaret Johnson 7******
Ann Johnson 5
William Johnson 3
1851 Census
William Johnson 40 Woodman born Morpeth
Mary Johnson 42
George Johnson 18
William Johnson 13
Jane Johnson 9
Barbara Johnson 6***
Robert Johnson 4
GRO
JOHNSON, BARBARA mothers maiden name MARSHALL**
GRO Reference: 1844 J Quarter in THE MORPETH UNION Volume 25 Page 30
Marriage on FreeREG 29 May 1831 Morpeth William Johnson to Mary Marshall
Bapts on FreeREG also for SWAN
Parents ROBERT/MARGARET
Mabel 10 May 1857
Alice Singleton 19 Mar 1865
Thomas Antony 19 Jul 1868
Mary Hannah 1 Oct 1871
Cant see a baptism for John W Swan born c 1860
Trish :)
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Robert Swan is much harder to place so M/C is needed.
When you have it we can help more :)
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That's terrific, thank you!
I had most of that, but specific dates are really helpful. And Jane is in my direct line so it's interesting to know she was illegitimate!
I'd seen the 1856 marriage before but discounted it - partly because of the dates and partly because he seemed to spend his whole life in Morpeth, making shoes, and I couldn't understand why he'd trek to Newcastle to get married. But the date makes sense now!
I think you're right, I'll need the marriage cert to get any further. But as he was Jane's step father, not biological father I might leave that for a bit now and plod on with other relatives.
Thanks again!
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Hard to know if he was Jane's Father or not.
Some had several children before tying the knot.
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Ah of course!
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When you get the M/C we may be able to help more.
Just add the details to this query :)
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I'm back!
I have the marriage cert - it's not helped me very much, but some of you are magicians and I'm hoping you can find something. I have Robert's father's name now. In the 1861 census Robert's mother was Jane, widow of a butcher.
On the marriage Cert his father is John Swan, Hatter.
I've searched everywhere for a John Swan who married a Jane, but I haven't had any luck.
This is what the marriage cert says :
Marriage Cert
GRO Vol 10b, Page 172
Marriage solemnized "at the Register Office" in the district of Newcastle upon Tyne, in the County of Newcastle Upon Tyne
When married : 16th August 1856
Name: Robert Swan
Age: 23
Condition: Bachelor
Profession: Boot Closer
Residence: Northumberland Street, Newcastle
Father: John Swan
Father's profession: Hatter
Name: Margaret Johnson
Age: 23
Condition: Spinster
Residence: Northumberland Street, Newcastle
Father: William Johnson
Father's profession: Joiner
Married in the Register Office, by me, John Routledge Registrar
in the presence of Thomas Oliver, George Foster, X the mark of Frances Smith.
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A John Swan Married Jane Grey by licence 14th July 1814 in Longhorsley so perhaps a little to early for yours
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Free Reg
St Andrew Newcastle Upon Tyne
28th November 1814
John Swan
father John Swan a hatter mother Margaret
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Plodding away!
Robert Swan married Margaret Johnson.
From their marriage cert I've found out that Robert's father was John Swan, a hatter.
From the 1851 and 1861 census I've found Robert's mother is Jane Swan who was a 'butcher's widow'.
So John was a hatter who later became a butcher? Jane Swan could actually be Margaret?
And in 1851 William & Eleanor Swan lived in the same street as widowed Jane.
Having looked at William & Eleanor, they did in fact have a son called John. But whether it's my John or not, I've no idea yet.
Infuriating :D
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Here is a 1940s photo of Reginald & Margery Swan for your file in case he turns up in your research.
Good Luck.
Carol
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Aw lovely! Thank you!
I love seeing the old photos.
We've got a photo hanging in our hall of the wartime occupants of our house - it was taken in our garden on their wedding day when he was home on leave :)