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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Gloucestershire => Topic started by: MattD30 on Friday 01 November 13 18:57 GMT (UK)

Title: Does anyone know where these places are?
Post by: MattD30 on Friday 01 November 13 18:57 GMT (UK)
I hoping someone can help me identify the parish from which my ancestor Silvester Keen was from.

Silvester Keen married Sarah Rymer by Licence in 1671. The Licence was issued by the Vicar General of the Archbishop of Canterbury. The entry in "Allegations for Marriage Licences Issued by the Archbishop of Canterbury 1669-1679" [Harleian Society 1892] states the following:

1671
April 6: Silvester Keen, of Mainty, co Glouc, Husbandman, Bachelor, abt 20 at his own disp, & Sarah Rymer, of the same, spr, about 21, with consent of her mother; alleged by Barnard Keen, of Geerson, WIlts, Yeoman; at Geerson, Malmsbury, or Hankerton.

Barnard Keen may have been Silvester's brother but I have no evidence of this yet although I suspect the two men are related.

Barnard Keen was also married by Licence (again issued by the Vicar General of the Archbishop of Canterbury) in 1667. In his case the entry states:

1667
April 17:
Barnard Keene, of Mynetee, co Glouc, Yeoman, Bachelor, about 30, & Mary Woodroofe, of Geerson, co Wilts, spr, about 18, with consent of her father Richard Woodroofe, Yeoman, at Hankerton or Crudwell, Wilts.

Mainty and Myntee are abviously the same place (just spelt differently by whoever wrote them down) but I have been unable to find it on a map. Silvester's son John Keen was born in Minety, Wiltshire in 1672 and I did think they might be the same place but it clearly states in both cases that the place in question is in Gloucestershire.

Also does anyone know where Geerson is?

Hope someone can help,

Matthew
Title: Re: Does anyone know where these places are?
Post by: Old Bristolian on Friday 01 November 13 19:47 GMT (UK)
Genuki gives Minety as "formerly in Gloucestershire ". Could Geeson be Garsdon perhaps?

Steve
Title: Re: Does anyone know where these places are?
Post by: SWar on Friday 01 November 13 19:53 GMT (UK)
A little bit of the history of Minety here -
http://www.bbc.co.uk/wiltshire/content/articles/2009/01/19/a_history_of_minety_feature.shtml

Sue
Title: Re: Does anyone know where these places are?
Post by: MattD30 on Friday 01 November 13 22:11 GMT (UK)
Genuki gives Minety as "formerly in Gloucestershire ". Could Geeson be Garsdon perhaps?

Steve

Hi Steve,
That's interesting as Silvester and Sarah's son John was born in 1672 in Minety (so far I have only found the one child). I should have put Ge[e]rson not Geeson sorry, and I also suspect it might be Garsdon as this is next to Minety and close to Hankerton.

On another note, would Barnard be an alternative spelling for Bernard?

Matt
Title: Re: Does anyone know where these places are?
Post by: Old Bristolian on Friday 01 November 13 22:17 GMT (UK)
Could well be Bernard with a strong West Country accent!! It may of course be a surname used as a Christian name to preserve a family connection - does it occur later in the family?

Steve
Title: Re: Does anyone know where these places are?
Post by: MattD30 on Friday 01 November 13 22:44 GMT (UK)
Could well be Bernard with a strong West Country accent!! It may of course be a surname used as a Christian name to preserve a family connection - does it occur later in the family?

Steve

I agree with you about the pronounciation with a strong accent. These are the only occurances of the names Silvester and Barnard that I have found. Silvester's son John married a woman named Mary although I do not know when or where. Their son was another Silvester [born 1701/02 Hankerton] who married a woman named Alathea (although again I do not know where or when yet).

This last Silvester and Alathea were the parents of John Keen who was born in Chisledon in 1730. Until recently I had only got back as far as John and only had an approximate birth year for him (1729) based on his age at death. I had thought there was a link to the parish of Broughton Giffard as I had found a John christened there in 1728/29, but then I found John's baptism in Chisledon in 1730 and considering the rest of my Keen/Keene family were all centred in Wanborough and Chisledon this one was a more likely candidate as Broughton Giffard was quite a way away. However there was another connection, John had named one of his daughters Alathia and as that name had not appeared in the tree before it seems likely to be that she was named after her paternal grandmother.

John and Alathea had ten children including my diret ancestor Thomas Keene (1754-1817) and he had nine children including my 3x great grandmother Jane Keene (1808-1874).

Title: Re: Does anyone know where these places are?
Post by: MattD30 on Friday 01 November 13 22:59 GMT (UK)
A little bit of the history of Minety here -
http://www.bbc.co.uk/wiltshire/content/articles/2009/01/19/a_history_of_minety_feature.shtml

Sue

An interesting article. So does this mean that I should put "Mintey, Gloucestershire" in my notes given that the marriages took place in the 17th century when [according to this article] Minety was in that county, even though the transcripts of the Marriage Licence Allegations say "Wiltshire" (these were published in 1892 so at that time the parish was in Wilts). Does this mean Maintey, Mynetee, and Minety are the same place?

Where would the parish registers for Mainty/Mynetee/Minety be held? I would like to find out more about both Silvester and Bernard.

Many thanks again

Matthew
Title: Re: Does anyone know where these places are?
Post by: SWar on Friday 01 November 13 23:22 GMT (UK)
Hi,

Have a look at this site - you can email them to ask if they hold the Minety records

http://www.ancestor-search.info/CRO-Wiltshire.htm

Sue
Title: Re: Does anyone know where these places are?
Post by: MattD30 on Saturday 02 November 13 00:29 GMT (UK)
Hi,

Have a look at this site - you can email them to ask if they hold the Minety records

http://www.ancestor-search.info/CRO-Wiltshire.htm

Sue

Thanks for the link Sue.
Title: Re: Does anyone know where these places are?
Post by: Old Bristolian on Saturday 02 November 13 09:58 GMT (UK)


An interesting article. So does this mean that I should put "Mintey, Gloucestershire" in my notes given that the marriages took place in the 17th century when [according to this article] Minety was in that county, even though the transcripts of the Marriage Licence Allegations say "Wiltshire" (these were published in 1892 so at that time the parish was in Wilts). Does this mean Maintey, Mynetee, and Minety are the same place?


Yes, I would assume just variant spellings. I think that in the 17th century only a small part of the parish - just 40 acres including the church- were in Wiltshire & the rest was Gloucestershire.

Steve
Title: Re: Does anyone know where these places are?
Post by: MattD30 on Wednesday 24 February 16 02:44 GMT (UK)
Could well be Bernard with a strong West Country accent!! It may of course be a surname used as a Christian name to preserve a family connection - does it occur later in the family?

Steve

I agree with you about the pronounciation with a strong accent. These are the only occurances of the names Silvester and Barnard that I have found. Silvester's son John married a woman named Mary although I do not know when or where. Their son was another Silvester [born 1701/02 Hankerton] who married a woman named Alathea (although again I do not know where or when yet).

This last Silvester and Alathea were the parents of John Keen who was born in Chisledon in 1730. Until recently I had only got back as far as John and only had an approximate birth year for him (1729) based on his age at death. I had thought there was a link to the parish of Broughton Giffard as I had found a John christened there in 1728/29, but then I found John's baptism in Chisledon in 1730 and considering the rest of my Keen/Keene family were all centred in Wanborough and Chisledon this one was a more likely candidate as Broughton Giffard was quite a way away. However there was another connection, John had named one of his daughters Alathia and as that name had not appeared in the tree before it seems likely to be that she was named after her paternal grandmother.

John and Alathea had ten children including my diret ancestor Thomas Keene (1754-1817) and he had nine children including my 3x great grandmother Jane Keene (1808-1874).

Just a quick update here. John Keener (son of Sylvester and Sarah) married Mary Wyatt in 1701. Their son Sylvester was married to Alathia Skinner in 1729.

Matt
Title: Re: Does anyone know where these places are?
Post by: Capetown on Wednesday 24 February 16 15:50 GMT (UK)
Google

Minety marriages 1620-1837

and there re 7 Keen marriages - earliest being

Ann KEEN, Spinster, of Garsdon marrying Samuel PITMAN at Lydiard Tregoze - 27 October 1698

---



Wiltshire and Swindon Archive Catalogue Wills Search list 20 KEENE's

which include

John KEENE  (Yeoman) - 1670 of Minety - Inventory, Will
Barnard KEENE (Yeoman)  - 1690 of Gardson - Inventory, Will
Mary KEENE - 1694 of Garsdon - Widow  - Inventory, Will
Jane KEENE - 1685 - Widow - Minety
Edward KEENE - 1714 of Hankerton - Adminstration bond, commission, inventories (two)
John KEENE - 1721  of Gardson - Admistration Bond

+++

Richard WOODROFF (Yeoman)  of Garsdon - Inventory Will 1680
Alice WOODROFFE of Gardson - Widow - Inventory Will 1681


----

Duncan & Mandy's website is full of photographs of churches/graves etc - can search by name - lots of new pictures of the Church at Garsdon Wiltshire


http://www.oodwooc.co.uk
Title: Re: Does anyone know where these places are?
Post by: MattD30 on Wednesday 16 March 16 21:02 GMT (UK)
Could well be Bernard with a strong West Country accent!! It may of course be a surname used as a Christian name to preserve a family connection - does it occur later in the family?

Steve

I agree with you about the pronounciation with a strong accent. These are the only occurances of the names Silvester and Barnard that I have found. Silvester's son John married a woman named Mary although I do not know when or where. Their son was another Silvester [born 1701/02 Hankerton] who married a woman named Alathea (although again I do not know where or when yet).

This last Silvester and Alathea were the parents of John Keen who was born in Chisledon in 1730. Until recently I had only got back as far as John and only had an approximate birth year for him (1729) based on his age at death. I had thought there was a link to the parish of Broughton Giffard as I had found a John christened there in 1728/29, but then I found John's baptism in Chisledon in 1730 and considering the rest of my Keen/Keene family were all centred in Wanborough and Chisledon this one was a more likely candidate as Broughton Giffard was quite a way away. However there was another connection, John had named one of his daughters Alathia and as that name had not appeared in the tree before it seems likely to be that she was named after her paternal grandmother.

John and Alathea had ten children including my diret ancestor Thomas Keene (1754-1817) and he had nine children including my 3x great grandmother Jane Keene (1808-1874).

Just a quick update here. John Keene (son of Sylvester and Sarah) married Mary Wyatt in 1701. Their son Sylvester was married to Alathia Skinner in 1729.

Matt

A correction to the above - John Keene married Mary Wayt not Wyatt.

Matthew
Title: Re: Does anyone know where these places are?
Post by: MattD30 on Sunday 20 March 16 22:42 GMT (UK)
I hoping someone can help me identify the parish from which my ancestor Silvester Keen was from.

Silvester Keen married Sarah Rymer by Licence in 1671. The Licence was issued by the Vicar General of the Archbishop of Canterbury. The entry in "Allegations for Marriage Licences Issued by the Archbishop of Canterbury 1669-1679" [Harleian Society 1892] states the following:

1671
April 6: Silvester Keen, of Mainty, co Glouc, Husbandman, Bachelor, abt 20 at his own disp, & Sarah Rymer, of the same, spr, about 21, with consent of her mother; alleged by Barnard Keen, of Geerson, WIlts, Yeoman; at Geerson, Malmsbury, or Hankerton.

Barnard Keen may have been Silvester's brother but I have no evidence of this yet although I suspect the two men are related.

Barnard Keen was also married by Licence (again issued by the Vicar General of the Archbishop of Canterbury) in 1667. In his case the entry states:

1667
April 17:
Barnard Keene, of Mynetee, co Glouc, Yeoman, Bachelor, about 30, & Mary Woodroofe, of Geerson, co Wilts, spr, about 18, with consent of her father Richard Woodroofe, Yeoman, at Hankerton or Crudwell, Wilts.

Mainty and Myntee are abviously the same place (just spelt differently by whoever wrote them down) but I have been unable to find it on a map. Silvester's son John Keen was born in Minety, Wiltshire in 1672 and I did think they might be the same place but it clearly states in both cases that the place in question is in Gloucestershire.

Also does anyone know where Geerson is?

Hope someone can help,

Matthew

Thanks to a set of Wills, a Bill of Complaint in Chancery, and an Inventory I have now been able to place Minety (or Myntie) in Gloucestershire. I have also been able to connect the family to the parish of Iron Acton and identify four more members of the family.

Matt
Title: Re: Does anyone know where these places are?
Post by: Shirl_R on Monday 21 March 16 02:14 GMT (UK)
Matt

Could Geerson be 'Garsdon', which is not far from Minety and Hankerton, etc?  See:
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/wilts/vol14/pp89-95 (http://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/wilts/vol14/pp89-95)
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/wilts/vol14/pp119-126 (http://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/wilts/vol14/pp119-126)
Title: Re: Does anyone know where these places are?
Post by: MattD30 on Monday 21 March 16 21:56 GMT (UK)
Matt

Could Geerson be 'Garsdon', which is not far from Minety and Hankerton, etc?  See:
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/wilts/vol14/pp89-95 (http://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/wilts/vol14/pp89-95)
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/wilts/vol14/pp119-126 (http://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/wilts/vol14/pp119-126)

Yes I think you're right. Barnard Keen of Garsdon was married in 1667 by licence in Minety (spelt Myntie in this case) and I am sure he is related to Silvester Keen who married Sarah Rymer there in 1671. It is possible they are brothers but I haven't found any evidence of that yet. I have recently ordered a copy of Barnard's Will from the Wiltshire archives so that might give me some clues.

Thanks for the links

Matt
Title: Re: Does anyone know where these places are?
Post by: MattD30 on Tuesday 06 March 18 01:20 GMT (UK)
Matt

Could Geerson be 'Garsdon', which is not far from Minety and Hankerton, etc?  See:
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/wilts/vol14/pp89-95 (http://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/wilts/vol14/pp89-95)
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/wilts/vol14/pp119-126 (http://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/wilts/vol14/pp119-126)

Yes I think you're right. Barnard Keen of Garsdon was married in 1667 by licence in Minety (spelt Myntie in this case) and I am sure he is related to Silvester Keen who married Sarah Rymer there in 1671. It is possible they are brothers but I haven't found any evidence of that yet. I have recently ordered a copy of Barnard's Will from the Wiltshire archives so that might give me some clues.

Thanks for the links

Matt

I have now established that Silvester and Barnard were brothers and that they had a brother named Thomas. The evidence came from two books about coaching and waggoners including the following book "Carriers and Coachmasters: Trade and Travel Before the Turnpikes" which described Thomas, Barnard and Silvester as brothers. Also I now have Barnard Keene's Will.

It looks like they may have come from Gloucestershire before moving into Wiltshire, however I haven't yet found their parents.

Matt
Title: Re: Does anyone know where these places are?
Post by: Capetown on Tuesday 06 March 18 09:14 GMT (UK)
National Archives
Date: 1603-1625

Reference: C2/Jas1/F5/57

Description:  Freeman v Webb.
Plaintiffs: Samuel FREEMAN and Richard HEYDEN (on behalf of Joan SAWYER, Alice SAWYER and Ann SAWYER, infants.


Defendants:  Edmund WEBB, Edward PEARCE, Anne SAWYER, Thomas WILKES and John KEENE


Subject: Lands in Minety, Gloucestershire, late of John SAWYER

Document type: (pleadings)

---

Men in Armour for Gloucestershire 1608

Minety (now in Wiltshire)

John GENE - has one corslet furnished

(so a piece of Armour, no age given or stature, so must have been other than a labourer etc)



Have you looked at the Forest of Dean website:

Gloucestershire Marriage Allegations 1637-1837 and Marriage Bonds - 1730-1823

There are at least 3  KKEN(E) listed from Minety

Emanuel KEEN - Grazier, to Elizabeth MASLIN - 25 March 1741
William KEEN - Chandler, to Sarah LEECH - 30 November 1747
Sarah KEEN - to Thomas hall, Farmer, - 15 February 1776
Title: Re: Does anyone know where these places are?
Post by: Capetown on Tuesday 06 March 18 09:51 GMT (UK)
?

Ancestry

Christening (Baptism)

28 Jan 1647

St Andrew, Holborn, Camden, London, England


Silvester KEYNE

father: Silvester KEYNE

Mother: Jdeth KEYNE


----


Wiltshire records are on Ancestry, there is a burial at Minety 26 July 1670 of John KEENE, Senior
Title: Re: Does anyone know where these places are?
Post by: Capetown on Tuesday 06 March 18 10:19 GMT (UK)
The Will of John KEENE of Mynty and Inventory (Yeoman) is dated 19 October 1670 -

Just started reading it and he does talk about his wife: JANE, JOAN & JANE daughters: Elizabeth - Son BARNARD + Barnard's daughter Mary, his other Sons, John & Silvester  & Thomas

Very clear Will to read...

---

Jane KEENE's Will 1685 is also available to read on Ancestry.  Talks about her daughter Doritha HIFCOCKS?

The Bishops Transcripts  for Minety 1605 to 1693 (difficult to read and appears to be gaps) - does have a christening: 1676 at Minety of Dorothia HIFCORKS? daughter of George & Dorothia

---

Family Search

Baptism at Minety 27 March 1676

George HISCOCKE - father: George, mother, Dorothie

--


Dorothy HISCOCK : Will & Inventory, 1716, Minety is on Ancestry and beautifully written.
---

Housework beckons  !!  will read later
Title: Re: Does anyone know where these places are?
Post by: MattD30 on Tuesday 06 March 18 22:38 GMT (UK)
The Will of John KEENE of Mynty and Inventory (Yeoman) is dated 19 October 1670 -

Just started reading it and he does talk about his wife: JANE, JOAN & JANE daughters: Elizabeth - Son BARNARD + Barnard's daughter Mary, his other Sons, John & Silvester  & Thomas

Very clear Will to read...

---

Jane KEENE's Will 1685 is also available to read on Ancestry.  Talks about her daughter Doritha HIFCOCKS?

The Bishops Transcripts  for Minety 1605 to 1693 (difficult to read and appears to be gaps) - does have a christening: 1676 at Minety of Dorothia HIFCORKS? daughter of George & Dorothia

---

Family Search

Baptism at Minety 27 March 1676

George HISCOCKE - father: George, mother, Dorothie

--


Dorothy HISCOCK : Will & Inventory, 1716, Minety is on Ancestry and beautifully written.
---

Housework beckons  !!  will read later

Hi.

Thanks for that info which looks very useful.

Will follow up tomorrow.

Matt
Title: Re: Does anyone know where these places are?
Post by: fanitot on Wednesday 25 April 18 10:46 BST (UK)
Hi Matt
I have just started researching the Keen family for a friend - I have tried to find the wills of both John 1670 & Jane 1685 on ancestry, but they are not showing up in the PCC wills - are they in a different category?
Many thanks
Jane
Title: Re: Does anyone know where these places are?
Post by: Capetown on Wednesday 25 April 18 14:17 BST (UK)


Minety is in Wiltshire and these are on Ancestry under the Heading

Wiltshire England Wills & Probate 1630-1858
Title: Re: Does anyone know where these places are?
Post by: fanitot on Wednesday 25 April 18 15:33 BST (UK)
Brilliant!  Thank you so much, these were not visible from the main page of wills - now I have found them by going through the main card catalogue.
Title: Re: Does anyone know where these places are?
Post by: MattD30 on Wednesday 25 April 18 18:56 BST (UK)
Hi Matt
I have just started researching the Keen family for a friend - I have tried to find the wills of both John 1670 & Jane 1685 on ancestry, but they are not showing up in the PCC wills - are they in a different category?
Many thanks
Jane

Hi Jane

Which members of the Keen family are you interested in?

Matt
Title: Re: Does anyone know where these places are?
Post by: fanitot on Thursday 26 April 18 07:35 BST (UK)
My friend is descended from Thomas Keen & Susannah Powell -  I easily got back to Silvester & Sarah Rymer, just wanting to put "flesh on the bones" with documents like wills.

I was going to check something with you - at The National Archives in London, there are 3 disputes in 1652 & 1663 which name Silvester & Thomas of Minety.  Silvester's wife is named as Elizabeth in the 1663 case.  The 1652 case relates to lands in Kingham, Oxfordshire, (which is quite a way from Minety).  Would I be right in thinking this is a different Silvester to the one that married Sarah Rymer?  their marriage licence has him as born about 1651.  Could this be the father of John who died in 1670?
Title: Re: Does anyone know where these places are?
Post by: MattD30 on Thursday 26 April 18 23:56 BST (UK)
My friend is descended from Thomas Keen & Susannah Powell -  I easily got back to Silvester & Sarah Rymer, just wanting to put "flesh on the bones" with documents like wills.

I was going to check something with you - at The National Archives in London, there are 3 disputes in 1652 & 1663 which name Silvester & Thomas of Minety.  Silvester's wife is named as Elizabeth in the 1663 case.  The 1652 case relates to lands in Kingham, Oxfordshire, (which is quite a way from Minety).  Would I be right in thinking this is a different Silvester to the one that married Sarah Rymer?  their marriage licence has him as born about 1651.  Could this be the father of John who died in 1670?

Hi Jane

Firstly it looks like your friend and I are cousins lol! Secondly I think I have looked at a couple of those disputes regarding Silvester and Thomas but not recently. I am a bit busy at work this week but give me a week or two to go through my notes and I will get back to you.

I think the Silvester who was married to Elizabeth is a different one to the Silvester who was married to Sarah, but they may be related.

I will go through my notes and get back to you asap.

Matt
Title: Re: Does anyone know where these places are?
Post by: fanitot on Friday 27 April 18 07:19 BST (UK)
Thanks Matt, appreciate your help
Best regards
Jane
Title: Re: Does anyone know where these places are?
Post by: MattD30 on Saturday 28 April 18 23:29 BST (UK)
Hi Matt
I have just started researching the Keen family for a friend - I have tried to find the wills of both John 1670 & Jane 1685 on ancestry, but they are not showing up in the PCC wills - are they in a different category?
Many thanks
Jane

Hi Jane

I've got copies of both the Will of John Keene and Jane Keene if you want copies.

In his Will, John Keene mentions the following people:

"my son Barnard"
"Mary his daughter" - ie daughter of Barnard
"my daughter Dorothy"
"her children George Barnard and Mary" - ie children of Mary
"my daughter Elizabeth"
"my two sons John and Silvester"
"my daughters Joane and Jane"
"my brother Thomas"
"my sister Katherine"
"Jane my wife and Thomas my son"

The Will was dated 23 June 1670 [the three and twentieth day of June] and Jane and Thomas were made joint executors.

Barnard died in 1690 and left a Will (dated 7 Jauary 1689) in which he made his brother, Thomas Keene, one of the Overseers. The Will was proved on 7 May 1690.


Jane Keene left her Will in 1685 (dated 29 October - "the nine and twenteth day of October")

Her Will is a bit shorter but does mention the following people

"my son John Keene"
"my daughter Dorothy Hiscox" [Hiscock] [see note below]
"my daughter Elizabeth Tellen" [Elizabeth married Henry Telling on 29 June 1671 in Minety]
"my daughter Joane Norton"
"my daughter Jane Keen"
"my son Barnard Keene"
"Thomas Parker" - he is mentioned in relation to a debt

Jane makes her daughter Jane her sole executrix of her Will. One of the witnesses is Barnard Keene, who I think was her son.

Dorothy Keene married George Hiscock in - he died in 1697 and left a Will. The witnesses to his Will were Henry Tellin [Dorothy's sister in law] and John Keene [Dorothy's brother]. Henry Telling was also one of the appraisers of George's inventory.

Dorothy Hiscock (nee Keene) died 19 years later in 1716. She also left a Will dated 21 February 1714. She makes her four sons "George Hisocke, Barnard Hiscocke, John Hiscocke and Joseph Hiscocke" joint executors of her Will [Barnard may have been named after her brother Barnard Keene, and John may have been named after her brother or father]. She also makes her brother in law Henry Telling, Overseer of her Will. The Will is quite long, but thankfully very clearly written. One of the witnesses is - Elizabeth Tellin, obviously Dorothy's sister Elizabeth who was married to Henry Tellin. Her Inventory was taken by the same Henry Telling and Christopher Norton [Dorothy's brother in law]

Let me know if you want copies of these if you want to read them in full.

More info to the follow tomorrow once I've gone through my notes.

Matt


Title: Re: Does anyone know where these places are?
Post by: MattD30 on Saturday 28 April 18 23:32 BST (UK)
My friend is descended from Thomas Keen & Susannah Powell -  I easily got back to Silvester & Sarah Rymer, just wanting to put "flesh on the bones" with documents like wills.

I was going to check something with you - at The National Archives in London, there are 3 disputes in 1652 & 1663 which name Silvester & Thomas of Minety.  Silvester's wife is named as Elizabeth in the 1663 case.  The 1652 case relates to lands in Kingham, Oxfordshire, (which is quite a way from Minety).  Would I be right in thinking this is a different Silvester to the one that married Sarah Rymer?  their marriage licence has him as born about 1651.  Could this be the father of John who died in 1670?

Hi

I don't have a record of this marriage in my notes although I have found a marriage of Thomas Keene and Susannah Powell in Ogbourne St Andrew in 1769. Let me know if that's the right one. If it is, can you let me know the line from John and Jane Keene down to Thomas so I can see how your friend and I are related.

Thanks
Matt
Title: Re: Does anyone know where these places are?
Post by: fanitot on Sunday 29 April 18 10:07 BST (UK)
Hi Matt,
Yes my friend comes down from John, son of Thomas & Susannah Powell.  The marriage licence for Silvester & Sarah Rymer is in the vicar General Marriage Licences, he is about 20 yrs of age.  Sarah's burial in 1674 at Minety has her as "Sarah Rymon als Keene"

I have a subscription to Ancestry, and have seen the wills you mention, but I had not spotted that John had a sister Katherine, thank you!

In the Bishops Transcripts for Minety, there is an entry on page 4 - 1605 - Maria (Mary) daughter of John Keene - so they were hanging around Minety way back then!

Jane
Title: Re: Does anyone know where these places are?
Post by: MattD30 on Sunday 29 April 18 20:30 BST (UK)
Hi Matt,
Yes my friend comes down from John, son of Thomas & Susannah Powell.  The marriage licence for Silvester & Sarah Rymer is in the vicar General Marriage Licences, he is about 20 yrs of age.  Sarah's burial in 1674 at Minety has her as "Sarah Rymon als Keene"

I have a subscription to Ancestry, and have seen the wills you mention, but I had not spotted that John had a sister Katherine, thank you!

In the Bishops Transcripts for Minety, there is an entry on page 4 - 1605 - Maria (Mary) daughter of John Keene - so they were hanging around Minety way back then!

Jane

Hi Jane

How does Thomas Keen (who married Susannah Powell) relate to John and Jane Keene?

Can you let me know your email and I can then send you a copy of the Keene tree I have so you can see everyone on it.

I haven't come across that burial of Sarah, and I hadn't looked at Rymon as a name yet. I haven't found a christening for her under Rymer (or Ryner) so perhaps Rymon might reveal something.

Matt

Title: Re: Does anyone know where these places are?
Post by: fanitot on Monday 30 April 18 12:11 BST (UK)
Hi Matt


I have the following:

1) John & Jane
                ¬
2) Silvester  (abt 1651)& Sarah Rymer(Rymon) - married 1671
                                   ¬
3) John 1672 married Mary Wayt 1701
                                  ¬
4) Silvester 1702 married Alethea Skinner 1729
                                 ¬
5) Thomas 1733 married Susannah Powell 1769
                                   ¬
6) John 1770 married Mary Cullen

Best regards
Jane
Title: Re: Does anyone know where these places are?
Post by: MattD30 on Monday 30 April 18 23:08 BST (UK)
Hi Matt


I have the following:

1) John & Jane
                ¬
2) Silvester  (abt 1651)& Sarah Rymer(Rymon) - married 1671
                                   ¬
3) John 1672 married Mary Wayt 1701
                                  ¬
4) Silvester 1702 married Alethea Skinner 1729
                                 ¬
5) Thomas 1733 married Susannah Powell 1769
                                   ¬
6) John 1770 married Mary Cullen

Best regards
Jane

Hi Jane

Just a quick message here as I will send you a GEDCOM tomorrow. I have exactly the same up to the last line:

1) John & Jane
                ¬
2) Silvester  (abt 1651)& Sarah Rymer(Rymon) - married 1671
                                   ¬
3) John 1672 married Mary Wayt 1701
                                  ¬
4) Silvester 1702 married Alethea Skinner 1729
                                 ¬
5) John 1730 married Margaret Iles (1737-1799) in 1753

As you can see John was the elder brother of Thomas (1733) who married Susannah Powell.

After John and Margaret the line continues as follows:

6) Thomas Keen[e] (born 1754) married Elizabeth Jones on 17 Jan 1786 in Shrivenham, Berkshire.

7) Jane Keene (born 20 Jan 1808, chr 27 Mar 1808 Chiseldon).

Jane married George Richardson on 3 June 1834 at the parish church of St George Hanover Square, London. George was a coachman working for the Earl of Winchelsea who had a residence in that area of London.

George and Jane's son was James Keene Richardson. James was 2x great grandfather.

Matt
Title: Re: Does anyone know where these places are?
Post by: fanitot on Tuesday 01 May 18 07:37 BST (UK)
Thanks Matt, good we both got to the same place!  Proves we are on the right track. 
Title: Re: Does anyone know where these places are?
Post by: MattD30 on Wednesday 02 May 18 00:24 BST (UK)
Thanks Matt, good we both got to the same place!  Proves we are on the right track.

Hi Jane

I will email you a GEDCOM file tomorrow. In the meantime do you know anything about Sarah Rymer/Rymon or Alethea Skinner? I think I have Alethea's family worked out but it would be good to compare with anything you know.

Matt
Title: Re: Does anyone know where these places are?
Post by: fanitot on Wednesday 02 May 18 08:28 BST (UK)
Hi Matt
Going from the marriage licence of 1671, she was born about 1650 - and married with the consent of her mother - so presume her father was already deceased.  I found a will for John Rayman 1663 of Minety (ancestry Wiltshire wills), he mentions his 2 daughters Ann & Sarah - this is probably her, but as no registers survive for 1650 it is not possible to be 100% sure.
Best regards
Jane
Title: Re: Does anyone know where these places are?
Post by: MattD30 on Wednesday 02 May 18 20:11 BST (UK)
Hi Matt
Going from the marriage licence of 1671, she was born about 1650 - and married with the consent of her mother - so presume her father was already deceased.  I found a will for John Rayman 1663 of Minety (ancestry Wiltshire wills), he mentions his 2 daughters Ann & Sarah - this is probably her, but as no registers survive for 1650 it is not possible to be 100% sure.
Best regards
Jane

Hi Jane

I've just come across a burial for an Anne Rayman in Minety, Wiltshire on 29 November 1668. This could be the Anne mentioned in the Will, or another relative.

In his Will does John mention a wife, or any other people? Who are the witnesses?

Matt
Title: Re: Does anyone know where these places are?
Post by: fanitot on Thursday 03 May 18 07:43 BST (UK)
Hi Matt
His wife is also Anne, John signed the will.  Witnesses are Nicholas Leydell (signed), looks like Richard Shummer / Shurmer (also signed), and Anne Shummer (made her Mark "X").  No other beneficiaries, just the wife & 2 daughters.

The inventory was made by William Greene of Minety, and Richard Summer of Upton in Gloucestershire, both were Yeoman (as was John Rayman)

Jane
Title: Re: Does anyone know where these places are?
Post by: MattD30 on Friday 04 May 18 00:56 BST (UK)
Hi Matt
His wife is also Anne, John signed the will.  Witnesses are Nicholas Leydell (signed), looks like Richard Shummer / Shurmer (also signed), and Anne Shummer (made her Mark "X").  No other beneficiaries, just the wife & 2 daughters.

The inventory was made by William Greene of Minety, and Richard Summer of Upton in Gloucestershire, both were Yeoman (as was John Rayman)

Jane

Hi Jane

That all looks very interesting, and may lead us somewhere. Can you email me a copy of the Will so I can look at the signatures? I think I have seen a couple of the names before.

I have found several Wills for Shu[r]mer/Shummer/Su[r]mer/Summer [and other spellings] on the National Archives website and there are a lot of christenings in the parish of Purton, Gloucestershire. There is a christening for a Richard Shurmer in Purton in 1620 (son of John). His father appears to have had another son named William christened in Purton in 1622.

Also there is a marriage in Purton in 1584 between a John Rymer and an Alice Greene. I think this might be worth investigating as John might be an ancestor of John Raymer/Rayman and Alice could be related to William Greene. They might not be connected but I think it is something to check.

Now the really interesting bit.....

You mentioned that one of the witnesses to John Rymer's 1663 Will was a Nicholas Leydell. I think that this is actually Nicholas Playdell. The interesting thing is that I have seen that name before in connection with the Keene family but I will need to check my notes to see where. The other interesting thing is that Nicholas appears to have left a Will in 1664 (proved in the PCC). I plan to examine that tomorrow as it might give more info about the Rymer/Raymer line.

Lastly I thought I would give you an update about the family of John and Jane Keene. Based on the info in their Wills and the Wills of other related people I have established that they had 6 children. These were:

Thomas Keene - the eldest son [died in Wrougton and left a Will]
Barnard/Bernard Keene - the second son [married Mary Woodroofe in 1667. He left a Will]
Silvester Keene - the third son [from whom I descend]
Dorothy Keene - daughter
John Keene - son
Elizabeth Keene - daughter

I have copies of the Wills of Jane, Barnard, and Thomas Keene as well as the Will of Mary Keene (widow of Barnard). I'll send you details regarding these tomorrow.

That's all for now. I will PM you with my email address.

Matt