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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: Nutley on Friday 08 November 13 09:49 GMT (UK)
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My Grandfather Captain James Greenwood, was born in Goole Yorshire 1875 and died at sea on board SS Broomfleet 1928. Ref. www.thegooleexperience.co.uk . I can find no trace of his ships and journeys. Through ancestry.co.uk masters and mates, I found a reference to him. Seamans number 037283. However when you go into the entry it makes refence to someone completly different. I did eventually find him on page 214 of the section but only found 1st mates certificate and little else. Where are all the records from 1901- 1928? I do know he sailed on the Eric Calvert at one time and worked for SS Calvert and Co. for many years. Please help
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Hi Nutley, I think that some of his service record is on there (page 209), I think that information runs from page 208 through to page 212?.
There is also probate information for him:
"Greenwood James of 37 Salisbury Avenue Goole Yorkshire. Died 8 September 1928 at sea, probate London 12 October to Clara Annie Greenwood widow.
Effects £1563.6s.3d
Also have you seen or aware of this:
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSln=Greenwood&GSbyrel=all&GSdy=1928&GSdyrel=in&GScntry=5&GSob=n&GRid=81624907&df=all&
Regards, Frank.
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Hi Frank, I was not aware of 'find a grave.'How interesting. Thank you so much this is lovely to have.i was aware of the probate. Yes, I too had checked all the pages from 208 but it all appears to be early information prior to becoming a Captain I wonder where all the other information is?
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Hi, I have a sneaky feeling that they could be held at the National Archives but I am not sure, I am hoping that sooner or later a member by the name of "seaweed" comes along as he is an absolute wealth of knowledge and has given me considerable help in the past along with a number of other posters on maritime issues, they will be invaluable to your search.
Frank.
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When my friend was looking for his grandfathers record we found something at the National Archives but I also found other stuff over the net. I seem to think that Merchant Marine and I think James might have been that rather than Royal Navy (but you would need to check what type of ship it is) Heres some information http://rmhh.co.uk/files/Merchant_Seamen_General_Research.pdf in case hes merchant marine.
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Hi again, there are several mentions of his death on the "British Newspaper Archives" website but you have to buy credits to get a full look.
http://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/search/results/1928-01-01/1928-12-31?basicsearch=captain%20james%20greenwood&exactsearch=false
Regards,
Frank.
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Gosh you are good Frank I really never new there were so many resources available? I will buy a couple.
regards sally
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Gosh you are good Frank I really never new there were so many resources available? I will buy a couple.
regards sally
Hi, thank you for that :)
I am only a mere novice compared to many of the chatters on here, I only know what I know thanks to the vast number of members who have helped me many times with my family research,
it does give you a warm glow when you help others tho' :)
Frank.
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Hello Boneham Taylor, thank you for your interest, have just been reading the link, I suspect that you are right , I will have to visit the national Archives office. However, it would also appear that some records were destroyed during my grandfather's career and even if they were not destroyed I only know of the ships- Eric Calvert and SS Broomfleet and of course he was on many more from 1902 - 1928. This could prove to be a tricky one!!!
Regards Sally
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Hi
The Eric Calvert is mentioned on this site, does nt give much info but tells you what sort of ship it was , Broomfield on there too. Quite hard to negotiate the site though. http://www.crewlist.org.uk/data/vesselsalpha.php
Cathy
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Hi Cathy , thank you , have had a look at the site found Broomfleet and Eric Calvert when I then researched Masters for both Ships - no details found. Thanks anyway, I really do Hope that I don't eventually discover that the records were destroyed. My Father died last year, not that he really knew very much as he was only 10 years of age when his father died. But he did tell me that he was given a middle name of Eric after his Father's Ship the Eric Calvert .
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I take it that your primary aim is to find details of his entire Merchant Navy career?
I do not have a subscription to "Ancestry" so I am entirely in the darkabout what details are on there so I will try and explain the best way to find this information from other sources.
The only positive you have is that he died aboard the BROOMFLEET 8/9/1928. He died from Acute Pneumonia of the left lung and fatty degeneration of the heart.
Your first step is to obtain a copy of the relevent crew agreement of BROOMFLEET official number 136080. Problem is this is held in Newfoundland. It would seem she also has logbooks for the year 1928 which will give details of his demise.
http://www.mun.ca/mha/holdings/viewcombinedcrews.php?Official_No=136080
They have a very good research service.
What the crew agreement should tell you is a positive certificate number and the name of his previous ship.
If you can get hold of this, come back and I or others will give you further advice.
Do you wish to know details of BROOMFLEET?
I can find no WW1 medal listing for him.
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Hi Seaweed, thank you very much for your feedback and directions as to what I should do. I will go ahead and ask for 'The Crew Agreement'. Presumably we can then work backwards starting with Brromfleet.
Yes, I would be interested in going as far back as I can. I understood from my Father that when he was a small boy he and his mother travelled down to London to meet up with his Father. It was my understanding the his Father sailed transatlantic presumably from Southampton or Portsmouth and therefore London was a convenient place to meet up.
My Grandfather was certainly sailing with The Calvert S.S. Co Ltd. in 1915 as I have his watch which was presented to him by the company in appreciation of services rendered date 30.8.1915..
I think I'm right in saying Calvert was goole based. So he must have been travelling out of Goole or Hull then. My Father was born in 1918. So sometime between 1918 and his death in 1928 when he was obviously back sailing out of Hull, he did sail transatlantic.
My Father told me that he went back to sailing out of Goole and Hull because he missed being away from the family all the time.
I don't know whether this is at all relevant in my search for his records. I will assume unless I hear from you to the contrary that I will progress as suggested by getting the initial records for Broomfleet from the archives in Newfoundland. Would however be fascinated to know why these records are in Newfoundland?
Thanks so much again.
Sally
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I will go ahead and ask for 'The Crew Agreement'. Presumably we can then work backwards starting with Broomfleet.
I will assume unless I hear from you to the contrary that I will progress as suggested by getting the initial records for Broomfleet from the archives in Newfoundland. Would however be fascinated to know why these records are in Newfoundland?
OK. Also ask for the Crew List from the logbook. Hopefully this will contain further details of his Masters Certification number. If we can get hold of this we may be able to short circuit the process rather than trace his service back tracking via Crew Agreements. Try and obtain any details from the Death at Sea pages of the relevent Logbook. This may give a further insight into the cause of his demise.
I look forward to hearing from you when you have this information. Meanwhile, I will continue digging and post anything of interest.
Why are these records in Newfoundland?
Basically no one else wanted them. Lots of invaluable paper documents, not just Maritime related, were destroyed simply because there was no physical space to accommodate them. For example The individual WW2 RAF pilots flying logbooks took up over 8 miles of shelf space, so they were burnt. What a resource for family historians! Of course today these documents would have been digitally recorded.
In 1966 the National Archives in London [Public Record Office] took the decision to discard part of the “Registrar General of Shipping and Seamen, the Agreements and Account of Crew and Official Logbooks” for British Empire vessels from 1861 to1913. The decision met with considerable opposition from archivists and maritime and labour historians; these records were considered to be a valuable and largely untapped source of information on seafaring labour and the shipping industry in the 19th and early 20th centuries. Eventually, through the co-operative effort of a number of individuals, the disposition of the Crew Agreements was settled, with the bulk of the records being transferred to the Memorial University of Newfoundland's Maritime History Archive .
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Apologies if this has been covered. I have not read the whole thread.
If you have not seen the original 'Death at sea' entry it is on Findmypast - http://www.findmypast.co.uk/records/maritime/view-image/D/518518
The position appears to have been in the North Sea, which is not surprising given the ship's home port. It also gives the cause of death.
In the National Archives there is a series of microfiche entitled Indexes to certificates of competency, masters, mates, engineers and fishing officers starting 1910. They are in BT 352, and they are not available online.
Ken
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Thank you both Seaweed and Ken. Ken I am not unfortunately a subscriber to' find my Past' . I subscribe to 'ancestry.co.uk'. Anyway I have just E Mailed the Maritime records office in Newfoundland with all this information as detailed by you Seaweed. So we will see what comes through.
Much appreciate your interest. Will obviously post information as soon as I get it. No idea how long it will take them.
Sally
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Sorry Seaweed I forget to say thank you for giving me the information as to why records are kept in Newfoundland - absolutely fascinating and how sad it is that the WW2 Airforce Pilot records were destroyed.
Oh, and Ken, are you suggesting that I go to The Archives office in Kew as well as following the Newfoundland route?
Sally
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The death at sea information I posted is from FindMyPast. Yes. As soon as you have a positive certification number you would need to return to Kew to view the files as Ken suggests. My gut feeling is to obtain his entire MN service history, back tracking on crew agreements would be the only way to go. However lets see if we can short circuit that route. Apart from anything it would be cheaper than obtaining crew agreements.
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So glad the others have been able to help you Sally. My forte is not generally sea related stuff so its been interesting for me to see too :)
Dee
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To my Knowledgeable advisers and interested follows.
Most impressed with Newfoundland Maritime archive office, and have asked them to go ahead based on the following message received from them last night -
" I have retrieved the crew agreement and log book dated 21/8/28 - 2/10/28, as well as 2 prior crew agreements. James Greenwood is the Master of the 3 voyages and details of his death are provided in the crew agreement/log book dated 21/8/28. His previous vessel for 1927 is the same vessel.
Rather than tracing Capt. Greenwood's career through the crew agreements, it would likely be much cheaper to search for him on the Lloyd's Captains Registers. I have checked the index and he is listed."
So, they will now be scanning and sending the relevant crew agreements/log books together with the Lloyd's Captains Registers search.
It looks as though I can then post these scanned documents as an attachment to you. Is this permissible? Or would this be in breach of copy right?
Sally
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Hi sally, not sure re copyright issue, but that's certainly good news and a great result for you.
Frank. :)
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Hi Frank, yes it is a great result I 'm really delighted. It all should make fascinating reading and will give me the lead to my further research.
You took my link, got it started and gave me direction for which I am most grateful.
Sally
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Good news indeed. MHA must have more up to date information regarding Lloyd's Captains Register than whats available on line..
I don't know if they will send a copy of his entry or the reference number. LCR are now stored at London Metropolitan Archives, Not Guildhall Library.
There are copies at Kew on Microfilm but the quality leaves a lot to be desired.
Not sure about the copyright issues but if you could give us a certificate number that would be fine.
LCR, will only record details after he passed his mates certificate any service before that as a seaman would not be recorded. Assuming of course he had such service. LCR are sometimes incomplete so to make certain, the Certificate of competency and service needs to be consulted. Lets see what you come back with.
regards
SW
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Hi Seaweed and my other experts. Great result- I have my Granfather's Lloyd's Captains Register details. For some unknown reason I cannot forward the file. Absolutely no idea why, however rather than playing around and in the process getting more and more frustrated, I will type it out. So here we are -
No.of Certifcate 003135 James Greenwood
Special Qualifications: Steamships Born Goole 1875 Passed Hull 1907
Vessel Date of Appointment, Re-appointments and class of Voyage
Official No.
Riplingham 14.5.08 M
10422 (mate)
Rose (s)
90914 -10.12 B
7.7.13
Maude Larssen(s) 26.2.15 FPS
128886 25.5.15
(late Wilhelm Behrens) 14.6.15
Eric Calvert(s) 26.6.15B
95295 1.2.16M
1.7.16 For
29.7.16
28.8.16 For
3.1.17
2.7.17
9.1.18
Otis Tetrax (s) -8.18 For
Sunk(war loss) Aug 22.18
26
Aug 24.18
22
Eric Calvert (s) 29.10.19 M
109231 20.12.19
3.3.20 For
18.5.20
Alfred Calvert(s) 12.7.20 B
24.9.20US
- 2.21
S.E.Calvert(s) 16.9.21M
120926 24.11.21
9.2.22SA
27.6.22 For
25.7.22 US
19.8.22
4.12.22
Alfred Calvert(s) 1.9.23Ct.
114653 4.9.23
S.E.Calvert(s) 27.9.23Ct.
120926 8.3.24
Broomfleet(s) 2.5.25 FPS
136080
Faxfleet(s) 20.11.26 For
128889
Broomfleet 8.4.27FPS
136080 6.8.27B
16.9.27
1.8.28
Master dead 11.9 28
Also have the log book entries- most interesting time of death. However I think the above is most relevant.
Sally
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For your interest go to gooleships.co.uk , click on private owners, then click on Calvert.
Have found pictures and a little history on Eric Calvert,S E Calvert, Alfred Calvert and Maude Larssen. All so interesting.
Refering back to the Lloyd's Captain's registry - what do the capital letters stand for after the date? I thought it was country for which the ship was bound ie: US however by looking at the photo of S.E.Calvert i would not have thought it was large enough to go transatlantic?
Sally
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Also found Broomfleet and Faxleet on same site.
Sally
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Well, you live and learn. I was not aware the MUN had details from Lloyd's Captains Register! Interesting.
Regarding "what do the capital letters stand for after the date? I thought it was country for which the ship was bound IE: US however by looking at the photo of S.E.Calvert i would not have thought it was large enough to go transatlantic?" You would be surprised.
For details of the abbreviations.See.
http://www.history.ac.uk/gh/capreg.htm
One thing that has always bothered me was why he did not have a WW1 medal record card. Maybe it got lost or destroyed.
I note he was on board the steamer OTIS TETRAX when she was sunk
http://www.uboat.net/wwi/ships_hit/4614.html
You will note that the sinking was not attributed to any U-Boat. I will contact a WW1 U-Boat expert to see if he has anything.
JGs Certificate and service details should be at Kew in the following reference.
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/Details?uri=C3097956
It is worth checking out to see if there are any omissions or mistakes in LCR.
I note that the recorded Official number of RIPLINGHAM in LCR is incorrect. It should read
104221.
http://www.crewlist.org.uk/data/viewimages.php?regtype=MNL&year=1910&name=RIPLINGHAM&page=430&imagesource=CLIP�images
You would need to look at the relevent Crew Agreement to ascertain if he had previous MN service prior to being awarded his Mates Certificate. I believe that copy's of the original certificate are at Ancestry.com
The 1908 Crew Agreements are here
http://www.mun.ca/mha/holdings/viewcombinedcrews.php?Official_No=104221
I also note there was a four year gap between RIPLINGHAM and ROSE it may be worth checking out the 1912 crew agreements of ROSE.
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Regarding "what do the capital letters stand for after the date? I thought it was country for which the ship was bound IE: US however by looking at the photo of S.E.Calvert i would not have thought it was large enough to go transatlantic?" You would be surprised.
For details of the abbreviations.See.
http://www.history.ac.uk/gh/capreg.htm
Wow!! :o well I certainly am.
Frank.
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OTIS TETRAX
The reply "There's no matching sinking claim, so very likely she was sunk by a drifting (British) mine"
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Hi Seaweed,
Thanks for all the information.
So did all merchant sea Captains receive a WW1 medal if they sailed during the period?
With reference to vessel number for Riplingham - the last digit was very difficult for me to decipher- but 1 makes sense now.
What was Capt. Greenwood doing between finishing on the 'Rose' and starting on the ' Maude Larsson'?
Well I have checked my records and his first wife Alice died Nov.7th 1913 leaving two young children, Minnie Constance and Charles Herbert. He re-married in Jul/Aug/Sept.1916 to Clara Peaker.
In 1918 my Father was born. So , Capt. Greenwood was understandably taking absence of leave.
Sally
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Hi all, he seems to have been a very popular man, the report on his burial in the Hull Daily Mail on Thursday September 13, 1928 states:
"In addition to the family mourners and Mr A.W. Atkinson of the firm of Messrs E.P A Atkinson and sons, Shipbuilders of Goole, by whom he had been employed, there was a large attendance of local Master Mariners and ships officers, as well as representatives of the Aire and Calder lodge of freemasons, the Ancient Order Of Foresters, and the Goole Conservative Club to which bodies the deceased belonged"
The report says the funeral took place "On Wednesday" so it was probably September 12TH or the week before the report was written which would have been September 5TH.
Frank.
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So did all merchant sea Captains receive a WW1 medal if they sailed during the period?
The Mercantile Marine Medal was awarded to those who served at sea for at least six months, and on at least one voyage through a danger zone.
The British War Medal was automatically awarded to all recipients of the Mercantile Marine Medal
Given that his service on MAUDE LARSSON, ERIC CALVERT and OTIS TETRAX would have qualified him, It seems odd there are no records of him being awarded these medals. Maybe I missed something.
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Hi Chaps, Thanks Frank - oh I come from good stock you know!!! and you seaweed better get back to finding info. on the WW1 Medal (only kidding, you have done so much for me)
I'm in pretty good shape now to make up a really good portfolio of my Grandfather. I have the photos of the ships, voyages and to where. plus all the snippets such as the Hull Mail entry. Would have loved to include a picture of the medal!!! I'm going to make the porfolio up for the family.
Thought you would like to see the last 2 entries from Broofleet's log book - see attachments .
Can't send attachment - too big apparently. Will type it out if anyone is interested.
Sally
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Thought you would like to see the last 2 entries from Broofleet's log book - see attachments .
Can't send attachment - too big apparently. Will type it out if anyone is interested.
Sally
Yes please!
SW
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Thought you would like to see the last 2 entries from Broofleet's log book - see attachments .
Can't send attachment - too big apparently. Will type it out if anyone is interested.
Sally
Hi, certainly would.
Frank.
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OK Chaps will send you the log book entries over the weekend.
So ,sadly my Grandfather did not make it to 'Fiddler's Green' !!! I suspect he would have loved it. actually so would I by the sound of it however I would replace rum with a large gin and tonic!!!! And I would have the Tabacco too !!!. And Seaweed you would not believe this but I was relaying this information to my husband! as I have done over the days( I have to listen to all his golf ,hole by hole) and he told me he lived at Fiddler's Green Cottages in East Norton , Leistershire when he was a boy.
Google it and you will find the cottages. How fun is that?
So, you were on the high seas for 50 years - what an achievement.
With my very best regards and great respect, Sally
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OFFICIAL LOG of the s/s "Broomfleet"
from Stavanger towards Hull
8.9.28
1.10am Captain Greenwood taken ill.
8.9.28
3.25pm Captain James Greenwood passed away after being ill since early morning. He was
continually attended to by Harold Staton(mate)and C.Uperaft (Steward) also
R.Hunt (Engineer) until his death. The Captain complained of pains in his left
side of his stomach. H.Staton (Mate) PJ Whale(Bosun)
10.9.28 Hull Post Mortem examination re. death of Captain James Greenwood held at Hull
10.9.28, cause of death. Acute Pheumonia of the left Lung and fatty degeneration
of the heart. H.Staton (1st Mate) C.Uperaft (Steward)
OFFICIAL LOG
Albert Dock,Hull 10.9.28
Deck Cargo Tonnage 14.40 Tons
W.BTilley. P.O.
11.30 am
13.9.28 At Hull Personal affects etc. packed up and delivered to Captain Greenwood 's
Nephew James Greenwood at Hull who proceeded with and delivered
same to his Aunt Mrs.James Greenwood, 37, Salisbury Avenue, Goole.
H.Staton.Master
P.J.Whale. Bosun
10.00am
14.9.28 At Hull All papers etc. taken over by me re. navigation etc. of s/s Broomfleet.
H.Staton.Master
S.Walker. Chief Officer
am At ? This is to certify that lifeboats were swung out and lowered,gear
overhauled and found in good codition,also life saving appliances.
H.Staton. Master
S.Walker . Mate
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Hi Nutley, very somber reading indeed, thankyou for sharing.
Very best regards always
Frank.
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Thanks for that. A newspaper report suggested that he suffered from food poisoning after eating fish. Could this explain "The Captain complained of pains in his left side of his stomach."
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Hi, Just to throw another bit of information into the mix:
"ANOTHER GOOLE VESSEL LOST,
SS MOPSA MINED IN THE NORTH SEA,
WHOLE OF THE CREW SAVED."
"News reached Goole on Sunday that the s.s.Mopsa, belonging to the Bennett Steamship Co Ltd, had been sunk about 4.30 that morning through striking a mine in the North Sea, but that happily the whole crew had been saved and landed at Lowestoft. The vessel was in charge of Capt. Greenwood, the senior captain of the company, who was also the master of the s.s Africa, belonging to the same company which was sunk about 12 months ago.
The above headline and account appeared in the Goole Times, Friday 21st July 1916 and is also in the book titled
"Asleep In The Deep"
"The Rise And Fall Of The Bennett Steamship Company"
written by Diane Brian
ISBN 978-0-9571169-0-0
Best regards always,
Frank
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Morning Frank, Thankyou for the lastest information. However, Captain James Greenwood was sailing with the "Eric Calvert" at that time. But, interestingly Jame's brother was also a Master Mariner living in Goole - Henry Ashling Greenwood.
I have found his details, but only relating to his early career. But he sailed on ships which would appear to have been owned by the Bennett Company. So this Captain Greenwood could well be my Grandfather's brother. Will do a little more research.
Best Regards
Sally
ps. I did pay for the newspaper cuttings which reported my Grandfather's death, I though they were well worth getting.
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Hi Sally, I did wonder if there was more than one Captain Greenwood, never mind tho' it's a bit more digging for you ;D.
Coincidentally, my Great, Great Grandfather Captain William Denby was master of both the "Africa" and "Mopsa" in the early 1900's.
Regards,
Frank.
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Hi Frank, well how interesting,assuming I am right about my great Uncle, they may well have known each other. He was certainly 1st mate with the Bennett Shipping company and he certainly received his masters certificate? beyond that I don't know - however will endeavour to find out.
Meanwhile , I have made up a lovely book on my grandfather, thanks to you and seaweed. well , I think it's jolly good - let's hope my nephew appreciates it he is also James Greenwood. This gift is for his birthday next week.
Then, I shall start researching my father! also James Greenwood . Middle name Eric after the Eric Calvert . Obviously know all about his career ( received the OBE in 1982) but will try to research his WW2 activity, poor chap was in Burma . This could prove to be difficult.
Best Regards
Sally
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Hi Sally, That's great news that you have put a book together for your nephew regarding your Grandfather, I am sure he will appreciate it, and it will be something for future generations to treasure.
Regarding your Great uncle, Henry Ashling Greenwood, if he died in Goole in 1935 then there is a photograph on "Find A Grave" together with an infant of the same name aged just 14 day's (that's so sad) but the grave however is in a state of disrepair.
Regards always,
Frank.
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Hi Frank! yes you are right Henry Ashling Greenwood did die 1935 and you have the correct grave and you are right on the details of his son. Yes, the grave does look in a state of disrepair . Maybe I should think about a week away in the Spring with my husband and of course Jack our cocker spaniel.
I remember as a young girl visiting Goole and staying with my Aunt who still lived at 37 Salisbury Avenue. The same. House my Grandmother and Grandfather lived in. I remember how cold it was!!!!
From a warm old Coach house in Surrey yours Sally
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go into newspaper archives and search"Henry Greenwood , Goole 1935
Sally
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Looking for a photograph of the SS Maude Larssen for the WW1 exhibition in Goole in August does anybody have one I could use.
Goole Museum Volunteer
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Unfotunately, I too have been unable to find a photograph of SS Maude Larssen.
Good Luck with your research.
Sally