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Census Lookups General Lookups => Census and Resource Discussion => Census Lookup and Resource Requests => Topic started by: Malcolm33 on Friday 15 November 13 05:39 GMT (UK)
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Could somebody please check the 1851 and 1861 census for me for James Turnbull who lived in Stanhope and Hunstanworth, Co.Durham at this time. We are fairly certain that he was born in 1772 at Falstone which is in the Parish of Simonburn in Northumberland, yet in the 1841 census which I have he has 'S' for Scotland against his name. The same census has his son Anthony born in County, i.e. Durham yet we know that Anthony was born in Scotland.
Family Search appear to have him aged 79 in their display for 1851, whilst UKCensus on line show him as aged 91 and called James Turnball in their display for 1861.
I found an obituary for him this morning in the Newspaper Library which says he was 97 years old when he died in Hunstanworth in August 1867.
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In 1851 the image shows him as 79 - born Northumberland farmer of 70 acres. As you say his son Anthony is listed as born in Roxbrough, Scotland
In 1861 he is shown as 91 born Simonburn, Northumberland living with his son Anthony and family. Anthony is listed as born in Castleton, Scotland. Remember the age on his obituary is only as good as the information provided by the informant.
Kay
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Is this the info you have re Anthony?
ANTHONY Turnbull Baptised 26 October 1808, The Parish Church, Castleton, Roxburghshire
Parents JAMES/BETTY
Mothers maiden name ELLIOT
Abode Hartsgarth
Siblings;
NANCY, 24 May 1803, abode Cleughhead
BETTY, 28 Feb 1805
ANNIE, 25 Dec 1807
HELEN, 22 Sept 1810, abode Middlemoss Ewsparish
ELLIOT, 17 Sept 1812
FreeREG has a Elizabeth Turnbull age 45 Buried St James, 17 June 1827 Hunstanworth, Durham, abode Nookton
Source FreeREG
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You may have this re Nephew Robert on 1851 Census with James?
Robert HALYBURTON Baptised 05 March 1810, Parish Church, Castleton, Roxburghshire
Parents JOHN and ANN nee ELLIOT
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You may have this re Nephew Robert on 1851 Census with James?
Robert HALYBURTON Baptised 05 March 1810, Parish Church, Castleton, Roxburghshire
Parents JOHN and ANN nee ELLIOT
Yes, actually I do know about him as a nephew of James, Trish, but many thanks for confirming it and finding the baptism. The Elliot girls were all daughters of Robert and Betty Elliot. He was a Shepherd in Castleton. There was also Janet who married Walter Borthwick and Agnes who married Edward Herdman. Other children are mentioned on the gravestone.
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In 1851 the image shows him as 79 - born Northumberland farmer of 70 acres. As you say his son Anthony is listed as born in Roxbrough, Scotland
In 1861 he is shown as 91 born Simonburn, Northumberland living with his son Anthony and family. Anthony is listed as born in Castleton, Scotland. Remember the age on his obituary is only as good as the information provided by the informant.
Kay
That is great Kay. Thank you so much for looking them up. I'm writing a little piece for Blanchland History Pages so every little bit of information helps. The Turnbull's and Elliot's left a big impact on so many of the big families that followed all around Blanchland and Hunstanworth. Not surprisingly with James and Betty having 101 gt.grandchildren. There won't be many people in that corner of the North East who aren't descended from them.
Yes, I've got used to all kinds of mess ups with the census'. Worst is when they get a first name completely different. I've got one gt.gt.grandmother shown as Mary instead of Elizabeth in one year.
The other thing we have to watch out for are late baptisms. I've seen them as being baptised in one case as 79 years old and in another as 18 years old. Ruth Dent was shown as 18 years when baptised in North Yorkshire and shown as being from Alston in Cumberland.
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Is this the info you have re Anthony?
ANTHONY Turnbull Baptised 26 October 1808, The Parish Church, Castleton, Roxburghshire
Parents JAMES/BETTY
Mothers maiden name ELLIOT
Abode Hartsgarth
Siblings;
NANCY, 24 May 1803, abode Cleughhead
BETTY, 28 Feb 1805
ANNIE, 25 Dec 1807
HELEN, 22 Sept 1810, abode Middlemoss Ewsparish
ELLIOT, 17 Sept 1812
FreeREG has a Elizabeth Turnbull age 45 Buried St James, 17 June 1827 Hunstanworth, Durham, abode Nookton
Source FreeREG
Again lots of thanks, Trish. I first saw this list back in 1985 when a Jim Turnbull living in NSW sent it to me. All done by post in those days. However we now know that in the case of Elliot he was right off track and all due to an error in the IGI.
Jim was claiming the above 1812 Elliot Turnbull as his ancestor purely because some one took it upon themselves to put an 'M' in the Male or Female column. Morag Carter kindly checked the actual register for me recently and there is nothing there to say that this was a son or listed as male. Jim even had the census for his male Elliot Turnbull for 1851 living at Canonbie aged 36 years which would have made his birth circa 1815 and not 1812. Whoever sent him that census even wrote Castleton as the place of birth yet when I checked Family search it comes up as Roxburgh and residence Dumfriesshire.
We do know that Elliot Dent nee Turnbull gave her birth as 1812 and Scotland. She was also present at the death of her father James Turnbull - on the death certificate.
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Hi,
l am hoping if someone has the 'Elliot Family & Turnbull Family Tree', if they wouldn't mind emailing me a copy please. Robert & Betty Elliot were my 6 x Great Grandparents, their daughter Janet Elliot married Walter Borthwick, my 5 x Great Grandparents.
I will be happy to send any information if required, l also have put the family tree on a website called 'Find a Grave'. Walter Borthwick (memorial no: 123093966) & Janet Elliot (memorial no: 123094809). l would be grateful for any photo's of family members and or headstones, as l need to know of any burial sites, for 'Find a Grave'.
Thanking you and regards
David Cail (Sunbury, Victoria, Australia)
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I have noticed on other web sites a date of death is given for Walter Borthwick as 1879. I just checked FreeBMD and it comes up as being in the June quarter of 1879 in Bellingham district, Northumberland when he was 82 years of age. This is interesting since James Turnbull was born in the same district (Falstone - Simonburn Parish) in 1770. Janet Borthwick nee Elliot died in 1874 in Castleton so it looks like Walter left Scotland to live with some family in Northumberland after his wife passed away.
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Has anyone associated a "Mary Turnbull" b. 1821 with this family. She married a Thomas Pickering in 1842 in Wolsingham, and her father was Given as James Turnbull (Farmer). Could it be your James Turnbull? I can't find anything else about Mary
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Has anyone associated a "Mary Turnbull" b. 1821 with this family. She married a Thomas Pickering in 1842 in Wolsingham, and her father was Given as James Turnbull (Farmer). Could it be your James Turnbull? I can't find anything else about Mary
Well it is a possibility. James's obituary in 1867 says that he had 12 children and I only ever managed to identify 9 of them. By that time there were 101 grandchildren and 138 great grandchildren and 6 great great grandchildren. The big problem is that after he and family moved from Roxburghshire to Hunstanworth or rather Nookton which is where his wife Betty Elliot died in June 1827 none of the births of the children in Hunstanworth can be found, including my great great grandmother Isabella Turnbull. I was only able to identify her as being a daughter of James through marriage witnesses but mostly from her sister Elliot (born 1812 in Roxburghshire) who was present at the death of James. This is undoubtedly due to them being Methodists - Wesleyans later on. Some other Methodist births I've found in Durham are only registered as being in London and yet they were definitely in County Durham all the time. So the Methodist circuit Minister probably came up from London to baptize the Turnbulls and many others. Is there any other information on the 1842 marriage certificate? Witnesses would be a great clue.
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If it is any help I can confirm that James Turnbull was living with his son Anthony and his family in Smailburn near Stanhope in 1841. Mary is not there and at the age of 20 she had probably found domestic work on another farm, and Wolsingham is no distance at all. I'll see if I can Smailburn on a map - on the census previous entry looks like 'Boy' and next one was 'Birkholm'.
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Having now found Smailsburn on a Map - it lies between Rookhope and Stanhope just west of the road - I feel very much convinced that Mary Turnbull who married 1842 in Wolsingham was another daughter of my James Turnbull and Betty Elliot. I'll see what else I can find.
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Good call on the marriage witnesses. I don't have copy but I'll try to find out.
Mary is a great candidate to be one of James' children, but I can find no record of her before her marriage.
She called her first son James, and her second daughter Elizabeth, (her first daughter was call Phoebe after Mary's mother in law).
Mary Turnbull is my Wife's great great grandmother
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Good call on the marriage witnesses. I don't have copy but I'll try to find out.
Mary is a great candidate to be one of James' children, but I can find no record of her before her marriage.
She called her first son James, and her second daughter Elizabeth, (her first daughter was call Phoebe after Mary's mother in law).
Mary Turnbull is my Wife's great great grandmother
James Turnbull's wife Betty Elliot was baptized 'Elizabeth' as you might expect so that fits as well. (Dykraw, Castleton, Roxburghshire 17 June 1781). Next thing is to try and find Mary in the 1841 census. I suspect she should show up as a servant in Wolsingham, but I didn't renew my Ancestry subscription and have dumped the old CD's I had with the 1841 census on them. Can anyone help?
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Family Search have Mary Pickering as being born in Wolsingham, but that might be a mistake. We know that 'Betty' Turnbull died in Nookton in 1827 which is close to Hunstanworth, but James did then turn up by 1841 at Smailsburn and I think that was Frosterly Parish which is where Mary Pickering was in 1851. -
Mary Pickering
England and Wales Census, 1851
Event Place Stanhope Frosterley, Durham, England
Registration District Weardale
Residence Note Frosterley Village
Gender Female
Age 30
Marital Status Married
Relationship to Head of Household Wife
Birth Year (Estimated) 1821
Birthplace Wolsingham, Durham
Page Number 9
Registration Number HO107
Piece/Folio 2388 / 302
Affiliate Record Type Household
Thomas Pickering Head M 32 Stanhope, Durham
Mary Pickering Wife F 30 Wolsingham, Durham
Pheboe Pickering Daughter F 7 Wolsingham, Durham
James Pickering Son M 6 Stanhope, Durham
Elizabeth Pickering Daughter F 4 Stanhope, Durham
Thomas Pickering Son M 2 Stanhope, Durham
Mary Ann Pickering Daughter F 0 Stanhope, Durham
Phoebe Gowland Servant F 16 Stanhope, Durham
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I think I've found her in the 1841 census :)
Martha Turnbull age 15 was in service at the farm of the Walton family in Ambling gate which is next door to Smailburn.
Martha could be Mary and the rounding of ages in the 1841 census could mean she was as old as 19 which fits with Mary's birthdate of around 1821.
Do you already have a Martha in James' Family, or could this be Mary?
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I think I've found her in the 1841 census :)
Martha Turnbull age 15 was in service at the farm of the Walton family in Ambling gate which is next door to Smailburn.
Martha could be Mary and the rounding of ages in the 1841 census could mean she was as old as 19 which fits with Mary's birthdate of around 1821.
Do you already have a Martha in James' Family, or could this be Mary?
Could be, but could also be another one of the 3 missing children. In any case I think Mary's identity is more or less confirmed as a daughter of my gt.gt.gt.grandfather James Turnbull. A friend has been helping and Sharon has sent me a copy of the 1861 Census for the Pickerings. Mary Pickering is shown as being born in Hunstanworth in this Census. I have only ever come across the one James Turnbull in Hunstanworth, so has to be the same.
Something else interesting, James Turnbull shows up as a Farmer at Smails Burn in 1841 and 1851 with son Anthony always an Ironstone Miner. But in 1861 James is a retired Farmer and Anthony now head of the House - BUT they have moved to Burnt Walls and the entry right above them is at Ambling Gate.
I have also had a good look at James baptism - Parish Register of Falstone for April 1772 and his father was another Anthony and they were living at Craig House east of Falstone and now Crag House Farm. This is very close to Smalesmouth Bridge just across the Tyne. Could this be where the name Smails Burn came from. Another thing is that Brian Pears in 1998 posted a comment about Craig House as being at Dickraw Falstone. Well what a coincidence because James went from Falstone to Dykeraw Castleton Roxburghshire where he married Betty Elliot and they live there for many years before moving south to Hunstanworth. Years ago I was contacted by someone descended from another Elliot Turnbull who lived at Ramshaw Mill, Wark - not far from Falstone. Well that is another coincidence because Isabella and Elliot Turnbull, daughters of James lived at Ramshaw, near Hunstanworth.
Sounds like this one Family was responsible for carrying on names of places they had previously lived.
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Something else just struck home. Next door to a Walton Family. Well one of my Dent's married a Walton and Wikitree keep using that relationship to connect me to stacks of notable people including the Queen, Henry VIII, Abe Lincoln, and Butch Cassidy just to name a few.
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That's great information. I was a bit optimistic with the ages/dates of Martha/Mary, so I'm glad you have other proof. Martha may well have been another sibling, so it's good to have Mary linked by other evidence. You now have one, and possibly two of the missing siblings, and I can add the Turnbull family to my tree.
Thanks for all your help.