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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Down => Topic started by: worldlywanderer on Thursday 28 November 13 08:03 GMT (UK)
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I came across a gardener, John Pentland, who lived most of his life in Westmorland but originally he haled from Tullylish in Ireland according to his entry in the 1911 census. His wife, Chirtina had a child Sefton in 1889 which points very firmly to his parents being Robert Pentland and Esther Sefton, particularly since they married in 1850 and he is claimed to have been born in August 1851.
The problem with that, so obvious, connection is that there is a counter-claim that Joseph George Pentland was born to these parents in January 1851 and went on to live a well documented life in England but not as a gardener and not in Westmorland.
It is possible one or both of the birth dates is incorrect as I have seen proof of neither. It is also possible John and Joseph George were twins. There is a third possibility, that one of them was descended from a sibling of Robert, John but he would have been only about seventeen when the younger son was born. There is another explanation. That Esther had a son prior to marrying Robert Pentland. His use of his mother's maiden name would then have an even greater relevance.
I'd be grateful for any further information which might shine light on this mystery.
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My first thought was to check if there are baptismal records for any children of Robert & Esther (or other Pentlands) which would give an indication of parents and date of birth (or at least baptism date).
However, I google the names of Eobert Pentland & Esther Sefton and came across this topic on another forum-
http://boards.ancestry.co.uk/thread.aspx?mv=flat&m=10178&p=localities.britisles.ireland.arm.general
The Will of Robert Pentland (mentioned in the above thread and covering 3 pages) is online- "Probate of the Will of Robert Pentland late of Mullabrack County Down Farmer who died 6 September 1897 granted at Belfast to George Clarke of Terryhogan County Armagh Farmer and Ann Pentland of Mullabrack Widow." and mentions son Joseph, etc.
http://applications.proni.gov.uk/DCAL_PRONI_WillsCalendar/WillsSearch.aspx
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Hi,
In 1868 George Pentland was born to Robert Pentland and Essy Sifton (sic) and the birth was registered in Banbridge. Is it likely that they would have named two sons George?
Regards
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from Ros Davies Co Down website, among others e.g.
George PENTLAND . Seapatrick regd. Banbridge; husband of Catherine Campbell; father of George b. 12 Jun 1869 & William b. 18 Feb 1872 CR
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My first thought was to check if there are baptismal records for any children of Robert & Esther (or other Pentlands) which would give an indication of parents and date of birth (or at least baptism date).
However, I google the names of Eobert Pentland & Esther Sefton and came across this topic on another forum-
http://boards.ancestry.co.uk/thread.aspx?mv=flat&m=10178&p=localities.britisles.ireland.arm.general
The Will of Robert Pentland (mentioned in the above thread and covering 3 pages) is online- "Probate of the Will of Robert Pentland late of Mullabrack County Down Farmer who died 6 September 1897 granted at Belfast to George Clarke of Terryhogan County Armagh Farmer and Ann Pentland of Mullabrack Widow." and mentions son Joseph, etc.
http://applications.proni.gov.uk/DCAL_PRONI_WillsCalendar/WillsSearch.aspx
The notes I have suggest that Robert Pentland, bap 3 jun 1827, Tullylish, Down, son of John (and Hester) married for the first time to Anna McClelland Beatty. ( have no dates for their marriage. I believe this is the same Robert who died 6 sep 1897, Mullaghbrack.)
I also have a record for a Robert Pentland, had a wiife, Esther Sefton, married 4 oct 1850, Tullylish, Witnesses were William Sefton, and Francis Jones. Robert was from Mullaghbrack, and Essy was from Clare. Robert and Esther were having children at least through Jul 1868, when there is a record for the birth of their son, George Pentland, b. 11 jul 1868, Banbridge, Seapatrick.
If this is the same Robert who married Ann McClelland Beatty, it likely took place after 1868.
They had six children.
Joseph Pentland, b. 13 jan 1884, Armagh
John Pentland, b. 19 sep 1885, Lurgan, Armagh (some idea that his full name could be Sefton John Pentland - based on the death record of his wife Christina).
Rebecca Pentland, b. 6 may 1887, Lurgan
Alice Pentland, b. 11 dec 1888, Lurgan
Evelene/Eveline Pentland, b. 26 jul 1892, Armagh
Robert Pentland, b. 6 jan 1896, Armagh
Here is a census record for the above John and his wife Christina Miller
1891 Census, England, Yorkshire
John Pentland, b. 1853, age 38, b. Ireland, gardener
Christiana Pentland, b. 1859, 32, b Worcestershire
Christine Pentland, b. 1885, age 6, b Hampshire
Sefton Pentland, b. 1889, age 2, b. Hampshire
There is record Sefton Pentland, b. jul-sep 1888, New Forest, Hampshire, England.
Sefton Pentland can be found in the 1916 Canada Census, Medicine Hat, Alberta
Sefton Pentland, 26, b. England, English, farmer
Joanah Pentland, 24, b. USA, Norwegian
1921 Canada Census
Sefton Pentland, 33, b. England, parents b. England, emig 1910, farmer
Joehna Pentland, 33, b. USA, parents b. Norway, b. 1910
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If this is the same Robert who married Ann McClelland Beatty, it likely took place after 1868.
What took place after 1868?
And who do the six children born 1884-1896 belong to?
Probate of the Will of Robert Pentland late of Mullabrack County Down Farmer who died 6 September 1897 granted at Belfast to George Clarke of Terryhogan County Armagh Farmer and Ann Pentland of Mullabrack Widow. Effects £83 10s.
Will of Robert Pentland mentions wife Ann, son Joseph, six other sons (William, Moses, Valentine, Francis, Thomas, John).
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Probate of the Will of Joseph Pentland late of Mullabrack County Down Farmer who died 10 September 1903 granted at Belfast to James Acheson Farmer. Effects £70 10s.
Will mentions wife Sarah.
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Down/Tullyish/Mullabrack/1204668 Joseph Pentland, wife Sarah, brother Francis, etc.)
Widow Sarah with nephew William-
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Down/Tullylish/Mullabrack/213437
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The notes I have suggest that Robert Pentland, bap 3 jun 1827, Tullylish, Down, son of John (and Hester) married for the first time to Anna McClelland Beatty. ( have no dates for their marriage. I believe this is the same Robert who died 6 sep 1897, Mullaghbrack.)
Marriage of Robert Pentland to Anne (McClelland) Beatty says he's a widower-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1880/11023/8030782.pdf
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Making less and less sense :-\
They had six children.
Joseph Pentland, b. 13 jan 1884, Armagh
Joseph Pentland born 13 Jan.1884 Lurgan to Moses Pentland & Rebecca Montgmery-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1884/02706/1996428.pdf
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If this is the same Robert who married Ann McClelland Beatty, it likely took place after 1868.
What took place after 1868?
And who do the six children born 1884-1896 belong to?
Probate of the Will of Robert Pentland late of Mullabrack County Down Farmer who died 6 September 1897 granted at Belfast to George Clarke of Terryhogan County Armagh Farmer and Ann Pentland of Mullabrack Widow. Effects £83 10s.
Will of Robert Pentland mentions wife Ann, son Joseph, six other sons (William, Moses, Valentine, Francis, Thomas, John).
The six children listed belonged to Robert Pentland and Essy Sefton. I believe that Essy was Robert's first wife, died and he remarried to Ann McClelland Beatty. I haven't seen a date for the marriage of Robert and Ann.
(I mispoke when I referred to it as Robert's first marriage. I was thinking, based on her name, that it may be that Ann had been married before.)
If Robert was married to Essy first, and their last born child was born in 1868, then Essy died sometime after that - suggesting that Anna M Beatty married Robert after 1868, and that she, Ann, is the one referred to in his will.
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Probate of the Will of Joseph Pentland late of Mullabrack County Down Farmer who died 10 September 1903 granted at Belfast to James Acheson Farmer. Effects £70 10s.
Will mentions wife Sarah.
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Down/Tullyish/Mullabrack/1204668 Joseph Pentland, wife Sarah, brother Francis, etc.)
Widow Sarah with nephew William-
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Down/Tullylish/Mullabrack/213437
any idea the age of Joseph when he died?
I have a Joseph Pentland, born Mar 1864, Mullaghbrack. This Joseph had a brother, Francis Pentland, born 30 jul 1863, Knockagore, Tullylish. Married Catherine Proctor on 19 feb 1914 at Seapatrick
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any idea the age of Joseph when he died?
I have a Joseph Pentland, born Mar 1864, Mullaghbrack. This Joseph had a brother, Francis Pentland, born 30 jul 1863, Knockagore, Tullylish. Married Catherine Proctor on 19 feb 1914 at Seapatrick
Joseph of Mullaghbrack died in 1903 was age 36- wife Sarah was informant-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1903/05656/4592289.pdf
The six children listed belonged to Robert Pentland and Essy Sefton.
Joseph Pentland, b. 13 jan 1884, Armagh
John Pentland, b. 19 sep 1885, Lurgan, Armagh (some idea that his full name could be Sefton John Pentland - based on the death record of his wife Christina).
Rebecca Pentland, b. 6 may 1887, Lurgan
Alice Pentland, b. 11 dec 1888, Lurgan
Evelene/Eveline Pentland, b. 26 jul 1892, Armagh
Robert Pentland, b. 6 jan 1896, Armagh
Joseph born 13 Jan.1884 Lurgan LINK (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1884/02706/1996428.pdf)
John born 19 Sept.1885 Lurgan LINK (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1885/02629/1969924.pdf) died aged 10 months in 1886 LINK (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1886/06244/4787715.pdf)
Rebecca born 6 May 1887 LINK (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1887/02564/1948343.pdf) died aged 11 months in 1888 LINK (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1888/06180/4766914.pdf)
Alice born 11 Dec.1888 LINK (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1888/02499/1926972.pdf) died aged 17 in 1906 LINK (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1906/05557/4559531.pdf)
Eveline born 26 July 1892 Lurgan LINK (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1892/02340/1875315.pdf)
Robert born 6 Jan.1896 Lurgan LINK (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1896/02187/1827669.pdf)
ALL these six children were from Moses Pentland and his wife Rebecca Montgomery
John born 1885 died in infancy so could not be the one in England married to Christina, etc.
Suggest you recheck all your notes with original sources for accurate tree
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any idea the age of Joseph when he died?
I have a Joseph Pentland, born Mar 1864, Mullaghbrack. This Joseph had a brother, Francis Pentland, born 30 jul 1863, Knockagore, Tullylish. Married Catherine Proctor on 19 feb 1914 at Seapatrick
Joseph of Mullaghbrack died in 1903 was age 36- wife Sarah was informant-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1903/05656/4592289.pdf
The six children listed belonged to Robert Pentland and Essy Sefton.
Joseph Pentland, b. 13 jan 1884, Armagh
John Pentland, b. 19 sep 1885, Lurgan, Armagh (some idea that his full name could be Sefton John Pentland - based on the death record of his wife Christina).
Rebecca Pentland, b. 6 may 1887, Lurgan
Alice Pentland, b. 11 dec 1888, Lurgan
Evelene/Eveline Pentland, b. 26 jul 1892, Armagh
Robert Pentland, b. 6 jan 1896, Armagh
Joseph born 13 Jan.1884 Lurgan LINK (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1884/02706/1996428.pdf)
John born 19 Sept.1885 Lurgan LINK (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1885/02629/1969924.pdf) died aged 10 months in 1886 LINK (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1886/06244/4787715.pdf)
Rebecca born 6 May 1887 LINK (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1887/02564/1948343.pdf) died aged 11 months in 1888 LINK (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1888/06180/4766914.pdf)
Alice born 11 Dec.1888 LINK (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1888/02499/1926972.pdf) died aged 17 in 1906 LINK (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1906/05557/4559531.pdf)
Eveline born 26 July 1892 Lurgan LINK (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1892/02340/1875315.pdf)
Robert born 6 Jan.1896 Lurgan LINK (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1896/02187/1827669.pdf)
ALL these six children were from Moses Pentland and his wife Rebecca Montgomery
John born 1885 died in infancy so could not be the one in England married to Christina, etc.
Suggest you recheck all your notes with original sources for accurate tree
Yes, you are right - very sorry for the confusion.
These are the children I have for Robert Pentland and Essy Sefton
Joseph George Pentland, b. Jan 1851, Tullyrain, Lurgan.
Isabella Jane Pentland, bap 30 mar 1853, Lurgan, Shankill
Moses Pentland, b. 1856, Tullylish
Mary Pentland, b. 8 may 1856, Tullylish
Robert Pentland, b. 1858, Tullylish
Valentine Pentland, b. 7 dec 1860, Tullylish
Francis Pentland, b. 30 jul 1863, Knocknagore, Tullylish
Joseph Pentland, b. mar 1864, Mullaghbrack,
Thomas Pentland, b. 6 nov 1865, Banbridge, Seapatrick, FHL FIlm 101115
George Pentland, b. 11 jul 1868, Banbridge, (Ireland Civil Registration)
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Joseph born 13 Jan.1884 Lurgan LINK (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1884/02706/1996428.pdf)
John born 19 Sept.1885 Lurgan LINK (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1885/02629/1969924.pdf) died aged 10 months in 1886 LINK (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1886/06244/4787715.pdf)
Rebecca born 6 May 1887 LINK (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1887/02564/1948343.pdf) died aged 11 months in 1888 LINK (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1888/06180/4766914.pdf)
Alice born 11 Dec.1888 LINK (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1888/02499/1926972.pdf) died aged 17 in 1906 LINK (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1906/05557/4559531.pdf)
Eveline born 26 July 1892 Lurgan LINK (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1892/02340/1875315.pdf)
Robert born 6 Jan.1896 Lurgan LINK (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1896/02187/1827669.pdf)
ALL these six children were from Moses Pentland and his wife Rebecca Montgomery
John born 1885 died in infancy so could not be the one in England married to Christina, etc.
And based on this marriage record, it appears they had another child not previously listed, Martha Pentland, b. 1882 and married to William Thompson. See link. https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1902/10267/5736685.pdf
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Birth of Martha Pentland 1882-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1882/02786/2022881.pdf