RootsChat.Com
General => Armed Forces => World War One => Topic started by: andaluz on Sunday 01 December 13 17:04 GMT (UK)
-
Can anyone help by identifying the uniforms on the attached photos please? The sailors cap reads "Lapwing II" but there were several ships by this name, both royal navy and merchant navy. All help gratefully received!
-
My guess is that they [bottom photo] are RNR men. I would suggest LAPWING II was the trawler requisitioned for minesweeping duty in 1915.
http://www.fleetwood-trawlers.info/index.php/2009/08/s-t-lapwing-gy317/
Would you care to give any full names for a check?
Regards
Hugh
-
Thank you for such a prompt response! I only know that the man on the right was my great uncle Tudor Williams. The other sailor is not named.
Regards
Gareth
-
Hi
Doe you have anything else on Tudor
any other names
Birth date
Regards
Westmorland
-
As far as I know he had no other names, and Iīm afraid the best I can do for a dob is about 1892 in Merthyr Tydfil. On the other photo are his two brothers Idris and Rees but I donīt suppose that helps at all!
Thanks, Gareth.
-
Hi presume in 1901 Tudor Williams b c 1892 Merthyr Tydfil is the one with parents Rees b c 1855 Llanthety, Brecon and Ann b c 1855 b Llangorse, Brecon, residing at 41, Iron Lane, Merthyr Tydfil
Census Ref RG13/5013/48/28
Idris born b c 1894 Rees b c 1885 on the 1891 Census
Keyboard86
-
Freebmd has this birth
Tudor Christmas Williams
Merthyr Tydfill 11a 649
March Q 1892
-
Hi
Found some of Idris' Army service
Enlisted in 1912 5th Welch Regt number 1648 he was 5 foot 2 inches and 17 years 7 months
He then transfered to the Royal Engineers number wr 195884
Wounded in action 1/4/17 arm and head hospital Alexandria
Then retained 14/2/18 and he is at Nottingham
Regards
I'll see what I can get for the other two
Westmorland
-
Hi
Tudor Christmas was in the army not navy
regards
Westmorland
-
If we are talking about Tudor Christmas Williams, He was in the RNVR, which would fit nicely with LAPWING II - http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/Details?uri=D7703150
However, the same man has a file in ADM 339 for the RN Division - http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/Details?uri=D7259529 so we need to establish if it is Tudor Williams or Tudor Christmas Williams we are looking for.
Regards
Hugh
-
Iīm overwhelmed with all this info! Keyboard86 you are right about the family, Rees and Anne were my great grandparents (Emily, their daughter was my maternal grandma). Tudor was the sailor but I donīt have another name for him, though if it was Christmas then I assume he was born on Dec 25th (like another great uncle on my fatherīs side of the family!). Idris went on to be a Baptist minister and Iīm trying to follow him through his life - Iīm pretty certain he was in Cradley Heath in the 1930īs and wrote a book about the history of his church. HAvenīt started on Rees yet.
Thank you to everyone for all of this,
Regards
Gareth
-
There is a Tudor Williams who was RNVR. Born 28 May 1897 his address given to the RN was 1166 Neath Road, Plasmarl, Swansea
Tudor Christmas Williams was born 24 December 1891 his address given to the RN was 24 Stewart Street Merthyr Tydvil
-
Hi Gareth, on Freebmd there are other Tudor Williams born around 1892 in Wales, but only one in Merthyr Tydfil (Tudor Christmas Williams). Have a look here to see of you think any others are possible from the locations.
http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl
-
Just trying to establish if Tudor Christmas is your man or not. His probate in 1956 lists his address as 43 Garden City, Penydarren, Merthyr Tydfill, died 6 April 1956, administration to wife Clara Williams. Effects Ģ1108 8s 8d. Does the wife's name or address mean anything to you.
-
There is a tree on Ancestry with lots of family photos including the one you have of the 2 sailors. This tree doesn't mention a middle name for Tudor and has his wife as Olive Hutson, not Clara as the Tudor Christmas probate record shows.
-
My cousin, who has the originals of these photos, has another picture of the three brothers taken in the back garden of 20 Stuart Street Merthyr. I donīt think there is a Stewart Street but maybe thatīs just the spelling that the person writing it down used. As far as we know Tudor was married to Olive Hutson (b1894) and they had three children, the youngest (David A Williams) born in 1923. All three brothers seem to have survived the war. What else can I tell you to help? Iīm really amazed at what you are all finding.
Regards
Gareth
-
Gareth, your confirmation that he married Olive not Clara has ruled out the Christmas fella.
After thought..... unless he married Clara after Olive died ?
-
Interesting.... here is Tudor's marriage on Freebmd
Tudor C Williams
Clara Hutson. So Clara and Olive were the same person :o
Dec Q 1918 Falmouth
-
Here's a snippet of info from the tree....
Royal Navy
SS Lapwing 11 British Cargo Steam Ship 1911-1917 . Ship was sunk on 11 November 1917 on a voyage from Rotterdam to London. Struck by a mine from a German Submarine . No Casualties Not known if Tudor was on board.
-
Interesting.... here is Tudor's marriage on Freebmd
Tudor C Williams
Clara Hutson. So Clara and Olive were the same person :o
Dec Q 1918 Falmouth
There is a Clara Hutson born in Falmouth 1891.
Edit to say the only Clara I can find born 1894 is from Derbyshire.
-
Tudor Williams seem to quite a popular name. I owned a flat in New Malden, Surrey 200, yards from Tudor Williams' Department Store which is still going strong.
-
Iīm getting dizzy now! Yes my cousin has noted on Ancestry that the SS Lapwing was a cargo ship, however the start of my enquiry here was about uniforms. Is the uniform worn by Tudor Royal Navy or was he in the merchant navy? If the latter then he may have been a crew member of the SS Lapwing my cousin mentions. If he was RN then could he have been on the HMS Lapwing which was also around at the time I think? I just donīt know enough about the subject to decide which way to go. I assume there was a difference between the uniforms? Iīll write to her to ask whether Olive could also be Clara and whether Tudor might be Tudor Christmas as that may help resolve some of the puzzles. Iīm also interested to know what the army uniforms are, if anyone can recognise them from the photo.
-
The family in 1911:
Rees Williams age 56
Anne Williams aged 58
Tydfil Williams aged 20
Idris Williams Aged 17
Tudor Williams Aged 19
Zilliah Williams Aged 13
Living at 9 Hanover Street.
It looks as if Rees, the son had already left home by this time.
-
Here's the lapwing sunk in 1917:
http://www.wrecksite.eu/wreck.aspx?12668
-
Iīm also interested to know what the army uniforms are, if anyone can recognise them from the photo.
It's hard to make out any badges to identify units but what is interesting is that in the first picture all three have wound stripes!
-
Gareth, I'm sure there are Rootschatters who are more familiar with army uniforms digging about trying to identify the regiments of Idris and Rees, someone will hopefully come back to you soon :)
-
For the sailor, they are not wound stripes they are Sea Service Chevrons. I also don't think the steamship LAPWING sunk in 1917 is the right ship.
Regards
Hugh
-
They are not wound stripes they are sea service chevrons.
Regards
Hugh
I see wound stripes on both Idris & Rees, they are too small for good conduct stripes.
-
For Tudor they are not wound stripes but Sea Service Chevrons cant comment for the soldiers.
Regards
Hugh
-
There is a hired yacht Lapwing used as a hospital ship tender, that is the sort of thing someone RNVR might have been involved on.
It was later renamed |Peewit III
-
For Tudor they are not wound stripes but Sea Service Chevrons cant comment for the soldiers.
Regards
Hugh
Roger! & I don't know about sailors. :'( :'(
-
I don't want to add further to the confusion, but there is a Merchant Seamen's Ticket (114375) on Find my Past for a Tudor Williams, born 25 May 1895, Swansea. With this is an identity photograph, and to my eyes the shape of the chin and ears of your Tudor look the same, although the id photo is of a slightly older man, being taken in the 1920's.
Martin
-
Thank you one and all! I have now had time to digest all of this info and it does seem very likely that my great uncle was the Tudor Christmas Williams discussed. A family member has left a note that Tudor was on minesweeper duties during the war (and became an engine driver later), so that ties in with the converted trawler Lapwing II, Hugh. The family lived at 20 Stuart Street, not 24 Stewart Street, but Iīm putting that down to transcription error. I have written to my cousin to ask whether she knows of the Garden City address. Thank you Westmoreland for the info on Idris and Jool for identifying Olive/Clara but I am grateful to you all for taking such an interest in my enquiry.
-
Have heard back from my cousin and she has confirmed that Tudorīs wife, though christened Clara, didnīt like the name and preferred to be known as Olive so that explains that. Tudor did indeed end his days at Garden City. This info from Tudorīs niece, now in her nineties. Thanks for all the help with him. I know Iīm being greedy but if anyone can supply more on Idris and Rees, the soldiers in the picture, we should be very grateful.
Gareth
-
Gareth,
Just a little more on Tudor Christmas.
He is wearing 3 Sea Service Chevrons on his right arm and on his other arm there looks like a good conduct badge issued at that time for 3 years good conduct (undetected crime). I suspect the top photo is dated between 1918 and 1922 and the bottom photo earlier.
There are two files (service records) for him as indicated in my post #9.
Tudor Christmas Williams appears to have served as a signalman and was awarded the 1914-15 Star, The Victory Medal and The British War Medal for service during WW1.
Regards
Hugh
-
Good evening,
The 2 soldiers in photo 1 are wearing overseas service stripes on the right arm, approx. 2 1/2 ins across.
LSGC stripes are the same as rank chevrons but worn point up on the left arm, approx 5 ins across and 3 ins up from the cuff.
Wound stripes are vertical 2 in stripes worn on the left arm above the cuff and below the LSGC.
John915
-
Idris Williams 20 Stuart Street, Merthyr was Sapper 269374 RE Railways.
Rees Williams, ditto, was 13509 11th Bn Welsh Regiment.
Tudor Christmas Williams, ditto, was Sig. ZW620 HMS 'Dreel Castle' RNVR
also at the address was
John Joseph Lane 12196 2nd Bn,Irish Guards.
Source = AVL 1918
edit: I haven't done any further checks re service records etc as I'm not sure what is already done in this thread. I skimmed through it
-
The post code for Stuart Street, Merthyr Tydfil is CF47 8SA, just off the Brecon Road
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Stuart+St,+Merthyr+Tydfil+CF47+8SA/@51.7518113,-3.3851274,17z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x486e3ba8b14316c3:0x67157b03fe2250b7!8m2!3d51.7518113!4d-3.3829387
My grandfather used to live in Garden City, Penydarren.